Long overdue HSE Admin staff retirement scheme

Vorsprung

Harney unveils details of HSE redundancy scheme

MARTIN WALL, Industry Correspondent, JASON MICHAEL

The Government has announced a €400 million voluntary redundancy and early retirement scheme for the Health Service Executive (HSE) which could see up to 5,000 staff leave the health service.

The programme is aimed at the 17,000 staff on main administrative and management grades and some of the 11,000 support personnel.

Up to 5,000 employees are set to leave the HSE under the process.

In a statement today, Minister for Health Mary Harney said the purpose of the schemes was to secure a permanent reduction in staff and to facilitate health service reform.

Ms Harney said although the programme would be open to both management and administrative grades, and support staff, priority would be given to the management and administrative grades. Those seeking to avail of the schemes must retire or resign by December 30th.

“The Croke Park agreement provides that the Government may offer voluntary mechanisms to exit the public service in specific sectors, bodies, locations or services. I am pleased that the Minister for Finance has found it possible to provide funding this year to meet the upfront costs of these two schemes," she said.

“There is general acceptance of the need to reduce the numbers of management and administrative staff in the health service. For that reason, all applications from management and administrative staff to avail of the schemes will be approved."

The Minister said the terms on offer were "fair and reasonable", particularly given the budgetary situation. She said the schemes would be available on a once-off basis to employees in the grades and would not be repeated.

Speaking on RTÉ's News at One , Ms Harney said she expected there would be "huge interest" in the schemes. She accepted there was a short time frame for prospective applicants but referred to the major economic challenges facing the State.

Expressing the hope up to €200 million of annual costs could be taken out of the health service, she said it would not be easy to deal with the aftermath of the staff departures but that she had "huge confidence" in the board of the HSE and new chief executive Cathal Magee.

"For many years now, people have called for a scheme like this, I would have wished that this could have happened sooner . . . and I believe the time has now come, given the economic challenges that we face in the country, in order to minimise the impact of any cutbacks and services to patients, that we first of all reduce to cost of providing those services. . . . The idea is to take out people who would not have to be replaced."

The Minister denied the creation of the HSE was a mistake. "The HSE has been in existence for five years, I think a lot has been learned in those five years . . . and I believe the time is opportune now to go one step further, and to reduce the administrative and management burden on the public health service."

Ms Harney said she was not suggesting individuals were not working in their jobs, and that she believed there was flexibility from staff under the Croke Park agreement to deliver services to patients in the aftermath of the schemes.

Under proposals drawn up by the Department of Health, the Department of Finance and HSE management, staff will be offered redundancy terms of three weeks’ pay per year of service which would be capped at two years’ salary, it is understood.

Staff taking the offer would be entitled to statutory redundancy arrangements in addition. These involve the payment of two weeks’ pay for every year of service plus one further week. The amount of statutory redundancy is subject to a maximum earnings limit of €600 per week.

There are about 17,000 staff in clerical and administrative grades in the organisation.

Delighted this is happening. However, it's only the start, and after I think there should be a drive to find those people who actually in desk jobs who are doing no work (either because they're lazy/inefficient/or there's no work to do) and either reassign them or get rid of them.

EDIT - Reread it and saw people have until December 30th to agree to it. Not sure how successful that's going to make it.

opinion guy

Vorsprung wrote: »

EDIT - Reread it and saw people have until December 30th to agree to it. Not sure how successful that's going to make it.

Its not. Look the only people who are going to take this are those who are top of the pile, fed up with HSE inefficiency and have other more lucrative options relatively easily available -the good effective workers in other words. The lazy ones doing nothing and collecting a handy salary are not going to budge.

Delancey

Having once worked in the HSE I take it with a large pinch of salt.

Whats the bet that people will take the package and be re-hired a few weeks later on contract ?
Whats the bet that staff will refuse to re-deploy to fill vacancies created by those leaving ?
Whats the bet the HSE will make a complete bollox of the whole thing ?

RobFowl

delancey42 wrote: »

Having once worked in the HSE I take it with a large pinch of salt.

Whats the bet that people will take the package and be re-hired a few weeks later on contract ?
Whats the bet that staff will refuse to re-deploy to fill vacancies created by those leaving ?
Whats the bet the HSE will make a complete bollox of the whole thing ?

I think there's a clause in the offer preventing them working for ant branch of the civil service or state funded body for 7 years.

RobAMerc

Hold on a minute - the HSE was put together by the current government despite the fact the old health boards were already over staffed. Is this not an admittion by the Fianna Fail that they have fooked up royally again and this time cost us 400 mill ?

Tree

FF can't admit they did anything wrong.

And what do they mean by support staff? It doesnt sound like soley clerical and adminstrative staff will be offfered the chance to go.

Delancey

RobFowl wrote: »

I think there's a clause in the offer preventing them working for ant branch of the civil service or state funded body for 7 years.

That is true RobFowl but the history of adherence to that requirement by the public service is very poor. The last time there was a ' redundancy/early retirement ' scheme there were numerous examples of that type of clause being completely ignored.
We ARE talking about the HSE here - the same idiots who allow nurses off on ' Career Breaks ' and then rehire the same nurses on agency rates.

I see the tax payer getting screwed again..............

scarymoon1

support staff as in CWO's. Not sure what will happen if they go because as it is there are health centres closed because there are no staff to fill them. In my opinion - there will be long waiting delays for Supplementary Welfare Allowance in the future - and with the 5,000 going the queues will get even longer!

bleg

5 years too late...

Dan_Solo

As already said, who'd take it? The maximum is two year's salary and 99% of HSE admins wouldn't find a non-HSE job in that space of time. Contrary to frontline staff, I don't think there'd be too many up in arms (as if they were much anyway) if many middle managers and "strategic" staff were simply sacked.

bleg

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1102/1224282486674.html

Pretty much sums up how I feel.

It will be the younger and more ambitious individuals (with better job prospects in the private sector or abroad) who will probably go.

Delancey

bleg wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1102/1224282486674.html

Pretty much sums up how I feel.

It will be the younger and more ambitious individuals (with better job prospects in the private sector or abroad) who will probably go.

Have to agree also - I was shocked at the education levels of many mid-ranking HSE managers in my time there - I'm not talking about lack of MBA's I'm talking about lack of Leaving Certificates ffs.
They would not stand a chance out in the real world and they know it - they'll stay put.

0lddog

delancey42 wrote: »

..............
Whats the bet that people will take the package and be re-hired a few weeks later on contract ?
Whats the bet that staff will refuse to re-deploy to fill vacancies created by those leaving ?
Whats the bet the HSE will make a complete bollox of the whole thing ?

Really, if you want answers to these questions you are on the wrong website.

Can I suggest that you start at

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/novelty-betting/current-affairs/Next-Head-HSE

?

neilster

delancey42 wrote: »

Having once worked in the HSE I take it with a large pinch of salt.

Whats the bet that people will take the package and be re-hired a few weeks later on contract ?
Whats the bet that staff will refuse to re-deploy to fill vacancies created by those leaving ?
Whats the bet the HSE will make a complete bollox of the whole thing ?

as a member of a union and a member of staff in a Local Authority , our unit has been closed and 4 of us are being redeployed ......told 2 weeks ago ...fine detail end of November ....implemented by 1/1/2011

we have area offices closing ..12 being redeployed ...same timetable

100 outside road workers and drivers and General Service Supervisors same thing ...same timetable ...

our IT dept 7 workers plus neighbouring counties IT dept has 10 ...merging with 7 jobs ...other ten redeployed (will have to be out of their location and local authority...again same timetable

VEC of our county and same neighbour ...merging same timetable

so this is very much happening and under Croke Park it will happen in HSE

are you kidding me on not getting number ...they had 900 firm inquiries the first evening ...1500 of the big fish will go as they would have had lumpsum taxed after 31/12/2011 anyway and the 2012 pension would be at 2012 rates with 2 wage cuts. The present deal is under 09 rates b4 cutbacks

1500 more like IT, accountancy etc with a saleable skill will love idea of being paid to leave when they can get jobs ...and there will always people who want to travel ....dont like public sector...no commitment ...no mortgae type...they will get the numbers alright

IMPACT have told us they had this news 2 weeks ago but Govt sat on it

There is a scheme for teachers next ...and then the Civil Service/Local Authority ..so this is only first scheme...all will be similar terms

neilster

delancey42 wrote: »

Have to agree also - I was shocked at the education levels of many mid-ranking HSE managers in my time there - I'm not talking about lack of MBA's I'm talking about lack of Leaving Certificates ffs.
They would not stand a chance out in the real world and they know it - they'll stay put.

Its this type of patronising ****e that i cant take from Private Sector ...you mean the private sector of the Intel Santa Clara HQ behemoth who couldnt give a rats ass about you or anyone else thats irish...that great real world .....I hate to break it to you but they werent interested in u ..just like someone being interested only in a bimbo cos of her stats ...the only stat of yours they were interested in was 12.5% corporation tax of your mother country

i have a degree and my colleague has,,,the IT dept will all by degree ...same audit etc...Just like the profile of a lot of older ireland the age groupings pf older staff will not have degrees ...my father and mother are similar and doubtless your own parents ...its a generational thing ....as for support staff and frontline in the HSE..these are very qualified people

Our engineering grades would be expected really to have MBAs to progress to senior engineers and all Director of Service would be MBA...ditto IPA further qualifications for clerical grades ....it is expected before interviews back when they use to happen

so knock the anecdotal on the head ....just like my post of what is happening on the ground

neilster

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As already said, who'd take it? The maximum is two year's salary and 99% of HSE admins wouldn't find a non-HSE job in that space of time. Contrary to frontline staff, I don't think there'd be too many up in arms (as if they were much anyway) if many middle managers and "strategic" staff were simply sacked.

As i have said before the HSE has both a financial and a structural problem ...the most urgent is paying for it not to downplay the other part..It being health costs €20bn ....€14bn is pay ..about 35% of this is premium pay , weekend overtime...oncall allowances etc ....Whilst this scheme is a forward step Croke Park can and achieve much much more

These premium payments account for about €5bn ....but if people are commanded under Croke Park to work their 39 hour week at any time of week without premium , that is huge cost reduction....if people then work at overtime at the normal rate ...this another reduction ....ambulance drivers who are getting an allowance for being oncall...cant have drink carry beeper etc ....this will be reduced ...this is all happening and makes scheme small-fry really ...


so you see the front line whilst obviously the real workers (and i applaud the work) are also the real earners ...doctors overtime etc


where i work we have drivers on lucrative premia like this ...these premia are being removed from 1/1/11 and their is a settlement on what it is worth (normal Labour Court agreement)

100 senior managers costing €12m in salary and 1,000 grade 8s costing €85m dont really get premium payments are a small part of a big problem...its the BIG numbers you need to talk about

Dan_Solo

neilster wrote: »

Its this type of patronising ****e that i cant take from Private Sector

Let me guess, you wouldn't take it from a public sector worker either.
Well you're getting it.

Dan_Solo

neilster wrote: »

100 senior managers costing €12m in salary and 1,000 grade 8s costing €85m dont really get premium payments are a small part of a big problem...its the BIG numbers you need to talk about

Are we allowed to talk about having the highest paid consultants in Europe, and far too many of them? When Harney talks of getting more consultants she always gets a round of applause, but this really means converting a doctor who's already doing his job for less money to a consultant on €200,000+. It's paying more for the same thing. Madness.

RobFowl

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Are we allowed to talk about having the highest paid consultants in Europe, and far too many of them? When Harney talks of getting more consultants she always gets a round of applause, but this really means converting a doctor who's already doing his job for less money to a consultant on €200,000+. It's paying more for the same thing. Madness.

This really frustrates me too.
All this talk of transferring care from hospitals to the community and how do we aim to achieve it?
Give hospital consultants a whopping great rise and ignore GP's completely and leave them on an outdated and inefficient contract from the 1970's....

JuliusCaesar

This is a crazy scheme. People have until 19th Nov to apply; cannot change their mind after that and must be gone by 31st December.
Our admin staff, porters and catering staff are putting in for it.
We won 't get any replacements as this scheme has been brought in too fast to properly re-organise the organisation. Who will answer the main switch now? Any passing staff member?

Between this and the Early Retirement that anyone who can is going for, we are going to lose valuable and experienced staff, and we'll be left in a mess that will totally demoralise the remaining staff.

Dan_Solo

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Between this and the Early Retirement that anyone who can is going for, we are going to lose valuable and experienced staff, and we'll be left in a mess that will totally demoralise the remaining staff.

As was said several times now, the best staff are those most likely to avail of this scheme as they are the ones who know they are most likely to get a job elsewhere, but will get a few quid to get out of a job they might hate. Inefficient McMucksavage in a higher middle management position with his inter-cert from 1970 isn't likely to take the bait.
Maybe everybody who doesn't apply for voluntary redundancy should be fired.:D

neilster

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Let me guess, you wouldn't take it from a public sector worker either.
Well you're getting it.

back that up with something Dan ....the last GP contract which was negotiated at the IMO end by none other than Dr James O Reilly that genius health spokesman was a bit cushy

id say the Consultants , GP and Pharmacy contract will get torn up

there was a great one this morning where a lady went for procedure with Consultant in Mater and 6 months later wrote to Consultant in France and got it done there as well

IRELAND ....10 staff members including nurses, radiographer , consultant , porter to do irish x ray plus injection and consultant consultation ....8 hours

LYON for around a similar cost ...involved consultation ...walk down corridor injection and x ray...2 hrs...2 staff .. we are paying for the ten

tallaght01

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Are we allowed to talk about having the highest paid consultants in Europe, and far too many of them? When Harney talks of getting more consultants she always gets a round of applause, but this really means converting a doctor who's already doing his job for less money to a consultant on €200,000+. It's paying more for the same thing. Madness.

DO people really think we have too many consultants???

resus

Wake up and smell the coffee. We are in a DOCTOR crisis. We don't have enough doctors to see patients in the public sector today, with things set to get disastrously worse over Christmas and into January, catastrophically worse. Just walk into any Emergency Department.

There are some VERY bizarre attitudes reflected on this list, and it is this sort of attitude that is chasing professionals away from this country. You need to RECRUIT doctors, not LOOSE doctors. Screw with T&C further and we will spiral further into disaster in our public sector. Enhance T&C, and yes that actually means paying better as well (shock horror!), and we might begin to get out of this black hole.

Wise up to this reality, you can't just replace even a ****e doctor overnight !! Because even ****e doctors can pick up the phone and get a job tomorrow in a host of more attractive health systems, and NO that does not mean better paid, it means better supported!

Like it or not, the most vulnerable in society are the ones suffering right now as a result of too few doctors. This is as a DIRECT result of governmental disrespect for the profession and what it achieves with very little resources in comparison to our European neighbours and in far poorer, bordering on 3rd world conditions.

As things get worse and worse, Consultants are just going to increasingly move to all private. Is this what those of you who continuously doctor-bash want for your sick child at 3am? It's not your doctors who have you over a barrel, it's our bloody government!

Don't even begin with a "duty to the state" retort, because frankly Irish Consultants who where once Irish NCHDS have more than satisfactorily over the years done their "duty" to Irish humanity in subhuman working conditions not experienced in other, less well paying, European Countries.

Why on earth are the vulnerable in our society suffering for the failings of private business, aka banks? This is the real Irish crime that our grandchildren will be reading in history books. So you bail out the banks to sums which could have dramatically cured years of health inequality ills instantly overnight! You have to ask yourself what is more important, health or wealth?

rant over, feel better......

neilster

resus wrote: »

Wake up and smell the coffee. We are in a DOCTOR crisis. We don't have enough doctors to see patients in the public sector today, with things set to get disastrously worse over Christmas and into January, catastrophically worse. Just walk into any Emergency Department.

There are some VERY bizarre attitudes reflected on this list, and it is this sort of attitude that is chasing professionals away from this country. You need to RECRUIT doctors, not LOOSE doctors. Screw with T&C further and we will spiral further into disaster in our public sector. Enhance T&C, and yes that actually means paying better as well (shock horror!), and we might begin to get out of this black hole.

Wise up to this reality, you can't just replace even a ****e doctor overnight !! Because even ****e doctors can pick up the phone and get a job tomorrow in a host of more attractive health systems, and NO that does not mean better paid, it means better supported!

Like it or not, the most vulnerable in society are the ones suffering right now as a result of too few doctors. This is as a DIRECT result of governmental disrespect for the profession and what it achieves with very little resources in comparison to our European neighbours and in far poorer, bordering on 3rd world conditions.

As things get worse and worse, Consultants are just going to increasingly move to all private. Is this what those of you who continuously doctor-bash want for your sick child at 3am? It's not your doctors who have you over a barrel, it's our bloody government!

Don't even begin with a "duty to the state" retort, because frankly Irish Consultants who where once Irish NCHDS have more than satisfactorily over the years done their "duty" to Irish humanity in subhuman working conditions not experienced in other, less well paying, European Countries.

Why on earth are the vulnerable in our society suffering for the failings of private business, aka banks? This is the real Irish crime that our grandchildren will be reading in history books. So you bail out the banks to sums which could have dramatically cured years of health inequality ills instantly overnight! You have to ask yourself what is more important, health or wealth?

rant over, feel better......

Its drivel like this that is the problem ...whenever people suggest ways of dealing with inefficiency we always get this ...the same in the third level sector...these are specialists ...they will walk ...they will vote with their feet...it is our general laissez-faire attitude to this drivel thats the problem...

we give consultants the sweetest deal in the western world in our hospitals where they can operate in a dual system at their discretion on our dime with impunity at really the way that suits them...this is unheard of anywhwere else ...will they walk...will they hell...they wouldnt get this anywhere else

...and it goes down from there...the registrar needs to be renumerated in style a couple of rungs lower and so on ...and if it cant meet the junior doctors in terms of salary sure the premium payments with 50-80k in premium payments will keep everyone happy

wel i have news for you ...this is our system not yours and we will pay for it however we like ...the funny thing about leverage is when people ( i mean us the owner of this system) are close to the edge ....your precious leverage goes out the window

opinion guy

neilster wrote: »

we give consultants the sweetest deal in the western world in our hospitals where they can operate in a dual system at their discretion on our dime with impunity at really the way that suits them...this is unheard of anywhwere else ...will they walk...will they hell...they wouldnt get this anywhere else

This is actually agree with - for the most part.

wel i have news for you ...this is our system not yours and we will pay for it however we like ...the funny thing about leverage is when people ( i mean us the owner of this system) are close to the edge ....your precious leverage goes out the window

A-hahahhahahahaah.
Hilarious.
This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time.
You aren't really very familiar with market forces are you ?

neilster

resus wrote: »

Wake up and smell the coffee. We are in a DOCTOR crisis. We don't have enough doctors to see patients in the public sector today, with things set to get disastrously worse over Christmas and into January, catastrophically worse. Just walk into any Emergency Department.

There are some VERY bizarre attitudes reflected on this list, and it is this sort of attitude that is chasing professionals away from this country. You need to RECRUIT doctors, not LOOSE doctors. Screw with T&C further and we will spiral further into disaster in our public sector. Enhance T&C, and yes that actually means paying better as well (shock horror!), and we might begin to get out of this black hole.

Wise up to this reality, you can't just replace even a ****e doctor overnight !! Because even ****e doctors can pick up the phone and get a job tomorrow in a host of more attractive health systems, and NO that does not mean better paid, it means better supported!

Like it or not, the most vulnerable in society are the ones suffering right now as a result of too few doctors. This is as a DIRECT result of governmental disrespect for the profession and what it achieves with very little resources in comparison to our European neighbours and in far poorer, bordering on 3rd world conditions.

As things get worse and worse, Consultants are just going to increasingly move to all private. Is this what those of you who continuously doctor-bash want for your sick child at 3am? It's not your doctors who have you over a barrel, it's our bloody government!

Don't even begin with a "duty to the state" retort, because frankly Irish Consultants who where once Irish NCHDS have more than satisfactorily over the years done their "duty" to Irish humanity in subhuman working conditions not experienced in other, less well paying, European Countries.

Why on earth are the vulnerable in our society suffering for the failings of private business, aka banks? This is the real Irish crime that our grandchildren will be reading in history books. So you bail out the banks to sums which could have dramatically cured years of health inequality ills instantly overnight! You have to ask yourself what is more important, health or wealth?

rant over, feel better......

The other Hallmark of the upper levels of the public service is the Banking Industry smokescreen as if the deficit and what is contributing to it are secondary ...In other words when someone points to high earners in the PS the banking crisis and the vulnerable in society are mentioned . In other words saving the banks causing cuts in the deficit which then affect the vulnerable due to their reliance on the public health service.

Well banking costs as odious as they are a one-offs ...the deficit and the factors causing it happen this year and keep happening unless we do something about it ...We all know the health system costs too much ...all of it and that includes the doctors' ranks as well

neilster

opinion guy wrote: »

This is actually agree with - for the most part.



A-hahahhahahahaah.
Hilarious.
This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time.
You aren't really very familiar with market forces are you ?

Well i know that a lot of premium payments in the HSE will no longer exist in February ...how do i know this ..cos im in the meeting where the consultations are going on...consultation is a bad word...its more like those payments are disappearing iin January and we are consulting (telling you about it )

what market do you speak about about

a Person who is a Consultant in Pedriatrics in the Mater who lives in Foxrock plays golf ..is married to a professional working in Dublin ...with family in college in Dublin

says to you with a straight face ...im off to Guys Hospital ..is he eck

This market you speak of is an imperfect one ....and isnt straight supply and demand...at a more junior level you have a point of course but the situation is so extreme this argument will be viewed as collateral damage

remember the TUI of university dons double jobbing on similar money to senior doctors etc thought this argument would work against Croke Park

but when someone said if a slot in one of the universities after a retirement /redeployment is free we cant consider you in the TUI , its the Impact person for us who voted for Croke Park, you will have to take a compulsory redundancy , what did the TUI do

did they stand on their soapbox and talk about market forces...they atarted to and were stared down ...think your argument is stuck back in 2008 ..and thats a lifetime ago in these days that move at Bond Market speed

the last time i checked the Hypocratic Oath it didnt mention anything about "we cant be touched"

tallaght01

neilster wrote: »

I
we give consultants the sweetest deal in the western world in our hospitals where they can operate in a dual system at their discretion on our dime with impunity at really the way that suits them...this is unheard of anywhwere else ...will they walk...will they hell...they wouldnt get this anywhere else

...and it goes down from there...the registrar needs to be renumerated in style a couple of rungs lower and so on ...and if it cant meet the junior doctors in terms of salary sure the premium payments with 50-80k in premium payments will keep everyone happy

wel i have news for you ...this is our system not yours and we will pay for it however we like ...the funny thing about leverage is when people ( i mean us the owner of this system) are close to the edge ....your precious leverage goes out the window

A) They most certainly would get this anywhere elese...Oz or the USA. Easy.Not to mention going up the road to do private practice in Ireland! consultants in Oz are taking in 360k per annum, and there was a recent ad for a radiologist in the bush for 500k. We all kow the kinds of salaries in the states.

Ozzie hospitals allow private patients to be accommodated in public hospitals. Reasons are the same as in Ireland....the private patients subsidise the public ones. Don't kid yourselves that consultants are demanding to see private patients in the public system against the wishes of everyone else. The HSE and hospital management love it, because they bill the insurance companies for the hospital stay, and they get twice as much per patient as they do for a public patient. Hospitals would be very reluctant to remove that source of income. The consultant only bills them for his time, not for the other costs.


C) 50-80k in premium payments for registrars?????

That's some good **** you're smoking.

tallaght01

neilster wrote: »

Well i know that a lot of premium payments in the HSE will no longer exist in February ...how do i know this ..cos im in the meeting where the consultations are going on...consultation is a bad word...its more like those payments are disappearing iin January and we are consulting (telling you about it )

LOL can I touch them huge balls

I'd say you're bringin the digestives into the meeting. Don't forget to drop the leftovers into the doctors' mess

neilster

tallaght01 wrote: »

A) They most certainly would get this anywhere elese...Oz or the USA. Easy. consultants in Oz are taking in 360k per annum, and there was a recent ad for a radiologist in the bush for 500k. We all kow the kinds of salaries in the states.

Ozzie hospitals allow private patients to be accommodated in public hospitals. Reasons are the same as in Ireland....the private patients subsidise the public ones. Don't kid yourselves that consultants are demanding to see private patients in the public system against the wishes of everyone else. The HSE and hospital management love it, because they bill the insurance companies for the hospital stay, and they get twice as much per patient as they do for a public patient. Hospitals would be very reluctant to remove that source of income. The consultant only bills them for his time, not for the other costs.


C) 50-80k in premium payments for registrars?????

That's some good **** you're smoking.

My basic tenets remain the same..people thinking that threats of non-compliance ...the flight of skills etc will make a difference

Currently the IPU on the pharmacy side is very worried about their contracts just being torn up

You think the public give a ****e about (even if they should) a 200k guy going to a 360k job in the morning..they sit back ...and say lets see if he does...an earlier poster tried to lecture me on supply and demand but how do you argue leverage with a group who say ...we know you're valuable ...and we may lose you ..but we cant afford this and we dont care

you are smoking ***** if you think thus stuff will work

opinion guy

neilster wrote: »

Well i know that a lot of premium payments in the HSE will no longer exist in February ...how do i know this ..cos im in the meeting where the consultations are going on...consultation is a bad word...its more like those payments are disappearing iin January and we are consulting (telling you about it )

what market do you speak about about

a Person who is a Consultant in Pedriatrics in the Mater who lives in Foxrock plays golf ..is married to a professional working in Dublin ...with family in college in Dublin

says to you with a straight face ...im off to Guys Hospital ..is he eck

This market you speak of is an imperfect one ....and isnt straight supply and demand...at a more junior level you have a point of course but the situation is so extreme this argument will be viewed as collateral damage

remember the TUI of university dons double jobbing on similar money to senior doctors etc thought this argument would work against Croke Park

but when someone said if a slot in one of the universities after a retirement /redeployment is free we cant consider you in the TUI , its the Impact person for us who voted for Croke Park, you will have to take a compulsory redundancy , what did the TUI do

did they stand on their soapbox and talk about market forces...they atarted to and were stared down ...think your argument is stuck back in 2008 ..and thats a lifetime ago in these days that move at Bond Market speed

the last time i checked the Hypocratic Oath it didnt mention anything about "we cant be touched"

I am referring to the junior ranks. I agree the consultants have it too sweet. If you truly are in those discussions you would want to start listening to what people are saying on here.
You are about to be faced with almost no junior docs other than interns willing to stay in the system. The junior docs can come and go at will. They can locum at will. You are soon to be faced with a system where all your nchd's other than interns will be locums.

And even thou they seem to have forgotten it, the consultants can't do **** without nchd's to support them. Do you management types really expect the consutlants are going to start getting their hands dirty again doing IV lines and such in the middle of the night ?

Seriously you have no clue. Come January 1 the market is going to kick the **** out of the health service. Nothing is being done to prevent this - in fact the HSE and government seem to want this.

tallaght01

neilster wrote: »

My basic tenets remain the same..people thinking that threats of non-compliance ...the flight of skills etc will make a difference

Currently the IPU on the pharmacy side is very worried about their contracts just being torn up

You think the public give a ****e about (even if they should) a 200k guy going to a 360k job in the morning..they sit back ...and say lets see if he does...an earlier poster tried to lecture me on supply and demand but how do you argue leverage with a group who say ...we know you're valuable ...and we may lose you ..but we cant afford this and we dont care

you are smoking ***** if you think thus stuff will work

I don't think any "stuff will work" to be honest. I think everyone should pay depending on their ability.

I'm more just laughing at your general waffle, and your "screw you, me and my grade 3 mates are gonna tell you how this will pan out" bigman talk.

I have no probs with high earners paying more taxes, as long as all the high earners do it. With tax, consultants won't notice much a drop in pay. And if they do they'll go to the Beacon.

neilster

tallaght01 wrote: »

LOL can I touch them huge balls

I'd say you're bringin the digestives into the meeting. Don't forget to drop the leftovers into the doctors' mess

again this is more of it...more patronising stuff stuck in the industrial relation of 2007 ....a little sardonic ...but in 2009 u have a point ...u cant fire me ...u need me ...we can frustrate this

as i said the universities tried this too...but you see doctors are different ...they are a special case arent they ...its only a guy with cojones that can possibly take us on ..

That Cojones guy who pays the wages and allows the consultants use his hospital and who has provided the Deal which they voted for guaranteeing their jobs in return for efficiencies which you say due to market forces they wont agree with

They now can be fired under that deal which is a departure to earlier this year so i dont think big balls are needed at all.

To that doctors would say we can go to London , Oz ...job in the morning type of thing to which the HSE says ...we need to drop the numbers cause we couldnt give a toss about patients or your argument ..the thing about a faceless monster like the HSE is its great in a situation like this ...theres a flight to Sydney tomorrow morning if you need to go there type of thing

some leverage ....or you try and frustrate the sytem ...again can be fired

neilster

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't think any "stuff will work" to be honest. I think everyone should pay depending on their ability.

I'm more just laughing at your general waffle, and your "screw you, me and my grade 3 mates are gonna tell you how this will pan out" bigman talk.

I have no probs with high earners paying more taxes, as long as all the high earners do it. With tax, consultants won't notice much a drop in pay. And if they do they'll go to the Beacon.

taxes ...dont make me laugh ....its the cost end of things that 'll get crucified ...and thats the earners etc ...i love the stuff about being a bigman as if this stuff is just big talk and cant be done ...im delaing with people who are just losing their overtime with the stroke of a pen

......or the greater good ...that everyone should pay ...oh let them cake

it can be done alright and its the big numbers is only place it makes sense

neilster

opinion guy wrote: »

I am referring to the junior ranks. I agree the consultants have it too sweet. If you truly are in those discussions you would want to start listening to what people are saying on here.
You are about to be faced with almost no junior docs other than interns willing to stay in the system. The junior docs can come and go at will. They can locum at will. You are soon to be faced with a system where all your nchd's other than interns will be locums.

And even thou they seem to have forgotten it, the consultants can't do **** without nchd's to support them. Do you management types really expect the consutlants are going to start getting their hands dirty again doing IV lines and such in the middle of the night ?

Seriously you have no clue. Come January 1 the market is going to kick the **** out of the health service. Nothing is being done to prevent this - in fact the HSE and government seem to want this.

I agree with everything you say and i beg to your greater knowledge but this greater knowledge is also a handicap... the living in a bubble argument ...the government couldnt give a toss about the braindrain argument ...its numbers ...get them down...get costs down and damn the consequences

they would say (the govt) by driving through their proposals in january ...that is the market... they created it and control it and if its something that doesnt suit you ...theres a flight tomorrow to sydney

resus

So the government wants to win their cost cutting/market reform agenda, and you are perfectly happy with doctors leaving these shores, so let's plough on. How far???

Neilster, how long do you want your child/wife/mum/yourself to wait in the emergency department when they/you are desperately unwell? By the way, by desperately I mean, life threatening.

The wait in a certain city hospital at 13h00 today was 5 hours. Why? because the hospital did not have a junior doctor to staff the ED for over 5 hours, not a single one! Get a locum, ok, they tried. The hospital knew about this situation for over 3 months. This locum became ill 5 days ago, so ok, get another, well they did. But this one canceled at the 11th hour.... so now what? Well the agency did not have anymore to give !!!

YES 5 hours for people with heart attacks, stokes, sepsis etc . waiting and waiting and waiting for a junior doctor to be found. This is today, what about January?

You talk about doctors living in a bubble !!!! You can't compare doctors with university professors ! That is ridiculous ! We are the ones at the interface with raw life! "Pulling the vulnerable string!" Of course I am, and I will continue to fight for my patients who are needlessly dying for want of BASIC services because this governments lack of insight is killing its population.

You write that they (HSE) don't care, and I believe you!

you write, "...this is our system not yours and we will pay for it however we like ...the funny thing about leverage is when people ( i mean us the owner of this system) are close to the edge ....your precious leverage goes out the window."

Well, for one, this system is a democracy, so it is mine just as much as it's yours. You write that what I say is drivel, well it's your opinion, but the harsh reality is that it will be YOU or YOUR FAMILY that will die waiting to see one of the few of us left.

neilster

resus wrote: »

So the government wants to win their cost cutting/market reform agenda, and you are perfectly happy with doctors leaving these shores, so let's plough on. How far???

Neilster, how long do you want your child/wife/mum/yourself to wait in the emergency department when they/you are desperately unwell? By the way, by desperately I mean, life threatening.

The wait in a certain city hospital at 13h00 today was 5 hours. Why? because the hospital did not have a junior doctor to staff the ED for over 5 hours, not a single one! Get a locum, ok, they tried. The hospital knew about this situation for over 3 months. This locum became ill 5 days ago, so ok, get another, well they did. But this one canceled at the 11th hour.... so now what? Well the agency did not have anymore to give !!!

YES 5 hours for people with heart attacks, stokes, sepsis etc . waiting and waiting and waiting for a junior doctor to be found. This is today, what about January?

You talk about doctors living in a bubble !!!! You can't compare doctors with university professors ! That is ridiculous ! We are the ones at the interface with raw life! "Pulling the vulnerable string!" Of course I am, and I will continue to fight for my patients who are needlessly dying for want of BASIC services because this governments lack of insight is killing its population.

You write that they (HSE) don't care, and I believe you!

you write, "...this is our system not yours and we will pay for it however we like ...the funny thing about leverage is when people ( i mean us the owner of this system) are close to the edge ....your precious leverage goes out the window."

Well, for one, this system is a democracy, so it is mine just as much as it's yours. You write that what I say is drivel, well it's your opinion, but the harsh reality is that it will be YOU or YOUR FAMILY that will die waiting to see one of the few of us left.

Look Resus the health system is a juggernaut and its hard to be fair about this . I think in a perfect world people like me or anyone else on the outside would look at the front line of the health service or the people depending on welfare and say these are areas that are untouchable but theankfully because we need perspective here ...these decisions will be taken by outsiders


The HSE and health service paybill is around €14bn which of the total govt spending of €52bn makes the pay bill going on towards 25%. In the UK whatever someone would say about the NHS the total spend on the NHS is around 25% so we are probably putting about 30% more money in to the system to get a lesser result and you talk about standing up for your patients ...sounds like moving against change

how could costing 30% more in a time of sparse resources giving worse service (im talking about system not individuals) be protecting patients

i was in an A&E twice in last 2 weeks with a broken foot and the whole thing on a Saturday afternoon and Tuesday morning moved at a sedate pace and it had nothing to do with people being missing ...that was very easy to see ...the eyes dont lie and id say the anecdotal talk here by patients here who are paramount would reflect that

opinion guy

neilster wrote: »

i was in an A&E twice in last 2 weeks with a broken foot and the whole thing on a Saturday afternoon and Tuesday morning moved at a sedate pace and it had nothing to do with people being missing ...that was very easy to see ...the eyes dont lie and id say the anecdotal talk here by patients here who are paramount would reflect that

So what in your estimation was the reason why it was so slow ?

resus

The reason we spend more % wise and get less in return is all the fecking layers of useless "managment" and "administration" NOT frontline staff.

Example 1) Cost of a certain IV drug, manufactured in Dublin, bought by hospital pharmacy for me to dispense... €57.01
Cost of SAME drug, bought through community pharmacy, by-passing HSE process, €7.01.

The above "scandal" is VERY well known and was knocked on the head a few months ago by a colleague who discovered this by accident and put right. But it's this sort of bollocks, that was put down to "admin" and "process" costs that is costing us.

Example 2) Doctors payroll. Seeing as A&E is so topical here. All work shifts. Predictable hours, yet NCHDS are still forced to fill out timesheet (which is exactly the same as the roster!), which is then passed on to a Consultant to sign, Medical Manpower Clerk to check against the roster and data inputed into some software, which is then signed off by a medical manpower manager, which is then passed to the payroll department clerk to be re: data inputed into payroll software (because the 2 don't talk!) to be rechecked by finance manager, to be paid incorrectly (because there are 3 human steps involved), to be disputed, etc. etc.

You clearly have no clue whatsoever about processes in emergency departments or what the actual roll of the doctor is. If you see staff sitting down doing nothing, it is likely that they are taking a well deserved break waiting on a) bloods b) radiology c) admin d) etc. etc etc. and not forgetting the e) ONE Doctor who is run off their feet, having been there for the past 12 hours !

SleepDoc

If this Neilster is representative of the calibre of HSE management involved in budgeting, we should be deeply concerned.

SleepDoc

neilster wrote: »

i was in an A&E twice in last 2 weeks with a broken foot and the whole thing on a Saturday afternoon and Tuesday morning moved at a sedate pace and it had nothing to do with people being missing ...that was very easy to see ...the eyes dont lie and id say the anecdotal talk here by patients ere who are paramount would reflect that

Would you have preferred if people were rushing around like headless chickens?

neilster

opinion guy wrote: »

So what in your estimation was the reason why it was so slow ?

You tell me ...but the staff were there....i couldnt honestly say that these staff were attending to anyone else...everyone seemed to be getting the same slowness ...there was a lot of walking around ...and i couldnt see a whole lot of urgency ...the most urgency on display was in radiography

neilster

SleepDoc wrote: »

If this Neilster is representative of the calibre of HSE management involved in budgeting, we should be deeply concerned.

Who said i was HSE management ? i certainly didnt..they have not covered themselves in glory ...but they arent the stakeholder i would attach most blame

With people openly talking about about the European Financial Stability Fund & IMF coming in if :

a) Government falls and new guys fail to form budget

b) Budget is not carried in Dail in December

c) with Bond Yields % now at 8% this does not come down

the HSE and pay budget will be butchered along with payroll...other countries who have experienced this like S Korea, Argentina etc usually take a flat 10% cut in expenditure straightaway with more surgical cuts where pertinent.

Sadly the €6bn cut seems to be to send a message against this real possibility ....and these cuts would go on top of the budget ...the IMF tends to act like a Company examiner and doesnt care about the flight of doctors....and Spindoc as you hiss with condescension ...that goes out to you especially

opinion guy

This ****e abot the IMF is starting to bug me. As the IMF themselves went to great pains to point out a year ago when people were also ****eing on about the IMF coming in - the IMF do NOT come in unless invited. They are not going to invade as scaremogners such as yourself seem to want us to think.

neilster wrote: »

You tell me ...but the staff were there....i couldnt honestly say that these staff were attending to anyone else...everyone seemed to be getting the same slowness ...there was a lot of walking around ...and i couldnt see a whole lot of urgency ...the most urgency on display was in radiography

Firstly - for every patient who comes in there is a ****load of thing sthey have to do. From paperwork, to waiting for bloods results, to calling other teams for advise, to getting radiology to get the scans done. Only a fraction of time spent on each patient is actually spent talking to that patient.
Secondly - do you rush around your job all day at break neck speed doing everything in a mad panic regardless of the level of urgency of the various tasks ? No you don't because its not sustainable. Urgent stuff gets done urgently, non-urgent stuff gets done in due course.
Thirdly - by and large the serious, urgent stuff is dealth with in a seperate area from the minor stuff. Most if not all A&E's have a seperate resus area where the real drama goes down. This will not be in the same place where you are waiting with your twisted ankle for various reasons.


Terrifying thought that you are attending these meetings making decisions on the health service if your above comments are the depth of your analysis and understanding of how the the system works.

neilster

opinion guy wrote: »

This ****e abot the IMF is starting to bug me. As the IMF themselves went to great pains to point out a year ago when people were also ****eing on about the IMF coming in - the IMF do NOT come in unless invited. They are not going to invade as scaremogners such as yourself seem to want us to think.




Firstly - for every patient who comes in there is a ****load of thing sthey have to do. From paperwork, to waiting for bloods results, to calling other teams for advise, to getting radiology to get the scans done. Only a fraction of time spent on each patient is actually spent talking to that patient.
Secondly - do you rush around your job all day at break neck speed doing everything in a mad panic regardless of the level of urgency of the various tasks ? No you don't because its not sustainable. Urgent stuff gets done urgently, non-urgent stuff gets done in due course.
Thirdly - by and large the serious, urgent stuff is dealth with in a seperate area from the minor stuff. Most if not all A&E's have a seperate resus area where the real drama goes down. This will not be in the same place where you are waiting with your twisted ankle for various reasons.


Terrifying thought that you are attending these meetings making decisions on the health service if your above comments are the depth of your analysis and understanding of how the the system works.

again when did i say i was mgt ?

it was a broken foot a**

the interest bill based on a 8% bond yield is €6bn ....thats added to the €9bn if and IF budget goes through ...that is if bank news stays at the current level and there isnt an economist on the planet that says that AIB will stay at the current rescue level at present

thats isnt factoring in growth forecasts going backwards

remember that all the banks rolled over 2010 medium term bond debt of €24bn in the last quarter (this is debt coming to fruition in 2010 ) with the only customer in the market the ECB ...we under the bank guarantee should have stood over that debt in the event of bondholders not stepping in ...we couldnt cos thats a cheque we cant write so the ECB handed over a fat cheque for us

we are a small margin away from the dropzone here

resus

The banks should have been left, as private businesses to fail. Fail completely. What we know as financial systems, etc. are flawed. Life would, shock horror, go on. Instead, we now try to tread water, in a state of extreme uncertainty.

What would have happened if instead of guarantee the banks debt, we guaranteed peoples savings and let things start from there?

ps. My latter comments by no means diminish my statements that we have a wholly inefficient public service that needs to be managerially/administratively slash and burnt.

neilster

resus wrote: »

The banks should have been left, as private businesses to fail. Fail completely. What we know as financial systems, etc. are flawed. Life would, shock horror, go on. Instead, we now try to tread water, in a state of extreme uncertainty.

What would have happened if instead of guarantee the banks debt, we guaranteed peoples savings and let things start from there?

ps. My latter comments by no means diminish my statements that we have a wholly inefficient public service that needs to be managerially/administratively slash and burnt.

I agree that we morally we should have let the banks fail but realistically and practically...it was a no no ...in the 4 weeks before the bank guarantee if the outflows had continued in Anglo it would have been bust bust in weeks...there is €60bn in personal savings there and bondholders have equal rights in a busted bank under irish law ...but the suggestion of that let alone the reality is that there would have been a run on BOI, AIB, Ulster and Irish Life Permanent and Nationwide would have gone as well

To put that in perspective the holdings in totality of the credit union is in AIB ...and this is a small amount of time since the Northern Rock run and really are Anglo & Nationwide any different ...the only difference between the UK and here was that the remaining banks after Anglo/Nationwide were worse than Lloyds, RBOS etc

and remember the EBS will need small sums, ILP hasnt needed government help and BOI has been salvageable

They would have all gone without bailout

The bailout situation was the classic case of , letting banks fail or bailing them out were choices the government didnt want to make ...thats why we should have had an effective regulator

Dan_Solo

opinion guy wrote: »

I am referring to the junior ranks. I agree the consultants have it too sweet. If you truly are in those discussions you would want to start listening to what people are saying on here.
You are about to be faced with almost no junior docs other than interns willing to stay in the system. The junior docs can come and go at will. They can locum at will. You are soon to be faced with a system where all your nchd's other than interns will be locums.

We heard this about the banking "talent" though too. Where will they all go? Is Australia going to take every Irish SPR as a consultant?
The fact remains that doubling a doctor's salary doesn't make him a better doctor. It just makes him a more expensive one. This is true in every job, but we're talking about 200k+ salaries for the top doctors in an abysmally bad health service.
(and don't say it all HSE mismanagement, everybody know it's the consultants that run the hospitals, certainly individual ones)

ZYX

Dan_Solo wrote: »

but we're talking about 200k+ salaries for the top doctors in an abysmally bad health service.

Not trying to justify, just to clarify.

Consultants salary for most consultants now is €175,000, which gives a takehome pay of €7,090 a month. (http://taxcalc.eu/)

Dan_Solo

ZYX wrote: »

Not trying to justify, just to clarify.

Consultants salary for most consultants now is €175,000, which gives a takehome pay of €7,090 a month. (http://taxcalc.eu/)

http://www.hseea.ie//Pay%20And%20Conditions/10.02.05.Revised%20Salary%20Scales%20-%20January%202010.xls
It would appear €175,000 is the minimum not the average.
Which also goes nowhere to explain why increasing a doctor's salary makes him better at treating patients. If a blanket ban on new consultants (not just the current replacement/new service only hiring) was in place we'd have more doctors and they'd still be of consultant quality.