Decision to breed Labrador

Eviledna

I hope that the dog experts here could give us some advice. My sister has a 5 month old chocolate lab female who is pedigree. We know she'll be coming into heat in the coming months and she has to make the decision whether to neuter her or breed her in a while when she's mature.

My sister's husband has some experience breeding labs from his youth, but they are looking for advice, essentially a pro vs con of breeding a labrador.

They didn't get her to breed her originally, she is a pet. But as she reaches maturity they are not sure what to do. They are concerned about the increased risk of cancer with breeding her, but would definitely have good homes for her pups to go to.
They wouldn't be breeding her straight away, but would love some advice from those who have been through this before, as they are responsible pet owners and love their pet.

To breed or not to breed, that is the question!:)

primavera85

if shes not a good working dog or successful show dog
(and i dont mean agricultural or exemption dog shows either, im refering to championship or breed shows)
dont even think about breeding her. too many pet owners breeding sub-standard dogs. place is flooded with them.

mymo

Everyone loves their dogs and wants the best for them, and we all like the idea of a little pup from our dog, that would be just the same as our wonderful much loved pet, but the reality is very different.
She should be an excellent example of the breed, judged by experts (not just someone who breeds or owns the breed), temperament should be excellent as should health.
The cost of the health tests for the dog (eye tests, hipscore, etc) are quite high, add to that the cost of feeding the bitch and raising the pups, vet costs, chipping and registering, and that really adds up if you do it right(and if you don't do it right, it shouldn't be done).
Then there's the time involved in raising the pups, cleaning, trying to find good homes that won't get fed up and send the dog to the pound, and the health risks to the bitch.
I know someone who lost their bitch and 3 of the 5 pups she had(they died one by one over 3 weeks, after the mother died, despite the couple doing everything they could to save them), the other 2 they saved and kept but it cost them over €1000 in vet bills, replacement milk, food etc, and nearly their sanity raising them, to end up with two pups. They were broken hearted losing their bitch and then the pups over the weeks. They will never do it again.
Please consider everything involved, also the benefits of spaying(less risk of certain cancers, etc)


Just to add, be aware she could have 10 or more pups, its the upper end of litter size but possible, people will say they'll take one, but when it comes down to it they often back out. Also what if they get fed up, or can't manage the dog anymore and it gets sent to the pound?
How would they feel about that?

Stella2010

A quick glance at this weeks Buy and Sell alone would answer that question for me personally......
Serious amount of overbreeding of dogs going on in Ireland.
Unless the dog is of high show / working standard and the puppies are booked in advance then no ..

http://www.buyandsell.ie/search/adv_search?search_term=labrador&search%5Bcategory%5D%5Bid%5D=188&search_options%5Bprice_min%5D=&search_options%5Bprice_max%5D=&county%5Bid%5D=

Eviledna

Thank you all for the replies so far. Some of you mentioned the increased risks of cancer involved in breeding...does anyone have more information about that?

Also, if she was to spay, what is the best time to do it?

moving_home

She is only 5mths and even if she comes in heat at 9mths that is too young to breed. AFAIK it is recommended that a bitch is at least 2 before having her first litter.
There is a lab down the road from me - unneutered and let have her first litter at 9mths and the poor dog is destroyed. It stunted her growth and everything

dahat

Eviledna wrote: »

Thank you all for the replies so far. Some of you mentioned the increased risks of cancer involved in breeding...does anyone have more information about that?

Also, if she was to spay, what is the best time to do it?

spay at 6 months old.........

cancer is very common is breeding bitches over 7,mammary cancer i believe.

moving_home

Eviledna wrote: »

Thank you all for the replies so far. Some of you mentioned the increased risks of cancer involved in breeding...does anyone have more information about that?

Also, if she was to spay, what is the best time to do it?

Most vets recommend spaying at 6mths to reduce risk of cancer. my pup was done at 6mths and bounced back within a day.

mymo

Its not from having a litter, more from not spaying as far as I know.
Higher risk of certain cancers, mammary being one.
Best time to spay depends on who you ask, most vets recommend early, before first heat, some say wait until the dog matures, 18months or so.
It's really best ask the vet and see what they say, get all the facts.
I got my girl done at 6months, as she came into heat early (5 months, vet warmed there was an increased risk of shorter heat cycles and higher risk of cancers)and where I live there are many roaming dogs, I had them waiting at the gate and my daughter couldn't go out as the dogs chased her when they smelt the bitch off her. I had to go out into the back garden with the dog to make sure a dog didn't get in while she was toileting.
I couldn't even walk my male dog as the dogs could smell the bitch off him.

Wisco

The risk of cancer - at least mammary tumours- increases with each heat as it has to do with hormones. Spay before the first season and it's almost 100% certain to prevent that type of cancer, the risk goes up a bit with the first 2 or 3 seasons. Obviously, because the uterus and ovaries are removed, you also prevent uterine and ovarian cancer, along with preventing pyometras, which is a condition where the uterus becomes infected (more common in middle aged to older bitches). Most of the time, surgery is required to resolve pyometras, and the bitch would be a higher surgical risk as well as she will be pretty sick by the time the condition is diagnosed in most cases.
But overall, look at all the ads for pups in the paper, donedeal, whatever. There are plenty of pups out there and plenty more are put to sleep every year becuase they get surrendered to the pound. So unless you're willing to do all the veterinary pre-mating/suitability checks, and have homes lined up even before breeding, please, please, please, consider spaying her.

boomerang

My biggest worry with breeding her is her hips - Labs are so prone to hip dysplasia and arthritis now. You'd really want to have her parents' hip scores and have her hip scored herself when she's fully grown before you make any decision. One of the reasons they say it's better to wait until the bitch is at least two before breeding from her is that by then any hereditary diseases will begin to show... Definitely don't breed her for another 18 months, if you do go down the breeding road.

But to be honest OP, it's a big ordeal for the dog (labour lasts up to two days!) and the country is flooded with unwanted Labradors - the pounds and rescues really are full of them. Unless you have good homes lined up for a litter that could be up to seven pups or more, then I'd just enjoy her and leave well enough alone - have her spayed soon.

TooManyDogs

Hi OP, all advise given is good, and my opinion would be to spay her and enjoy her. If you do decide to breed her I'd advise to make sure you have at least 14 or 15 homes lined up, she'll likely have 7 or 8 pups and it's amazing how many people who tell you they'll take a pup then change their mind when the pup is actually born. The rescue I volunteer with is finding it very hard to home lab or lab x pups never mind adult dogs, and most of them end up going to lab rescue charities in the UK. At the moment in Ireland the dogs getting homes quickly are small dogs, not as many people looking for larger dogs.

dvet

I'm a vet and personally would spay & neuter all of my dogs at 6 months, no question asked. Not only does it help to prevent the sad situation of unwanted dogs, the health benefits are huge. (The risk of mammary cancer increases with every heat that a bitch has, as well as with pregnancy...and pyometra is one of most common causes of death for older unspayed bitches - 2 great reasons to spay ASAP!)

By the way, thanks to the OP for bringing this up. All bitch owners should read this thread - some really good advice has been given here.

lrushe

If they are looking to breed their bitch I would start by enrolling her some ring craft classes as the first port of call would be to start showing her to see if she is a good example of her breed as there is no need to breed unless you are adding something exceptional to a breed, I think most of us like to believe our dogs are perfect but putting them up against their peers will confirm this.:)
Then when the bitch is fully grown (2 years) I would get her hips and elbows scored to make sure she wasn't going to pass on any genetic problems to her pups. I would also have her eyes and heart examined too for the same reasons.
Assuming all is going well showing and all health test are clear, I would start looking for a suitable stud to complament the bitch who had also been shown or worked and had the relevant health clearance.
Personally I find it easier to spay and enjoy my dogs for what they are but wouldn't condemn anyone for breeding if they are willing to do it responsibly and I believe doing the above is the responible route to take when breeding, just my opinion!

Deeanimallover

Dont breed - get her spayed! You only have to look at all those ads on donedeal etc to see the amount of pups on offer - also Im sure you will notice that the price of them seems to have come down which is an indication that people are not buying as much as they were a couple of years ago - and thank god for that!

Ive come across a few people the last couple of months trying to "get rid" of puppies - one guy had 3 chocolate lab pups and was giving them away free as he had hard enough time charging for them - thankfully he saw sense and is getting his dog spayed.

Another guy I heard of was going around asking people to take a lab pup or else "he would have no option but to drown her" I really hope he wasnt serious :mad:

Also the amount of pedigree pups being handed in to shelters coz the owners cant afford to look after them as they are stuck with them.

And last but not least surely the health benefits alone would be enough of a reason to get her spayed

ISDW

lrushe wrote: »

If they are looking to breed their bitch I would start by enrolling her some ring craft classes as the first port of call would be to start showing her to see if she is a good example of her breed as there is no need to breed unless you are adding something exceptional to a breed, I think most of us like to believe our dogs are perfect but putting them up against their peers will confirm this.:)

Normally I would totally agree with you, but with a working breed such as the lab, I don't think that the dog needs to be judged by a show judge to see if its a good example of the breed. Show labs and working labs are very different to each other. I do agree that the dog should be a good example of the breed though, whether its from the show or working side of the breed.

I love labs, but unfortunately they do get dumped in their masses every year, so I would recommend that you spay her and save yourself the heartache of trying to find great homes for your pups.

lrushe

ISDW wrote: »

Normally I would totally agree with you, but with a working breed such as the lab, I don't think that the dog needs to be judged by a show judge to see if its a good example of the breed. Show labs and working labs are very different to each other. I do agree that the dog should be a good example of the breed though, whether its from the show or working side of the breed.

I do agree and personally I like a mix of working and confirmation titles on a working breed, however as the OP seemed new to the world of breeding so I was trying to make the steps as simplistic as possible

Xiney

I have a labrador.

He was found by the side of the road at four months of age.

This is what he looked like back then:




Trust me - the world (particularly Ireland) does not need any more labrador breeders right now, there are already enough idiots dumping puppies they decide they don't actually want.

Eviledna

Oh Xiney, he's gorgeous! How could anyone abandon him?

Thank you so much everyone for your input and advice, it has really opened my eyes to the complexities of breeding and alot of the cons (very few pros really!).

It's given the folks alot to think about and they too say thanks for all the advice.

When you get a beautiful bitch pup I guess it's anthropomorphic to consider breeding before you make the decision on spaying. If it were a human child, we'd think "oh itsn't my creation just the perfect child, and she too will one day have beautiful, intelligent children". To "steralize" (how we'd term it) the pup seems to be almost cruel, and for women we naturally equate it with a hysterectomy, which has many negative connotations.

However it's clear that it is only kind to the pup to spay her, despite our natural instincts. Perhaps there is a factor of human qualities projected upon dogs that has us in this situation of too many pups, too few homes?

scudzilla

We have a 12month old Boxer, KC registered

We will be letting her have a litter when she's 2 1/2 - 3yrs old, why all the negativity about breeding?

Seems some real pretentious people here lately with the "OOOOOH, if she's not a champion or a show dog don't breed her"

We're letting her have 1 litter then will be getting her spayed and thats that

Cherry Blossom

scudzilla wrote: »

We have a 12month old Boxer, KC registered

We will be letting her have a litter when she's 2 1/2 - 3yrs old, why all the negativity about breeding?

Seems some real pretentious people here lately with the "OOOOOH, if she's not a champion or a show dog don't breed her"

We're letting her have 1 litter then will be getting her spayed and thats that

All the advice here applies to the OP's dog and labs in general, I think the reasons not to breed her have been clearly explained and no-one has been pretentious about it.

Can I ask you why you are going to have your boxer spayed after the first litter? Genuinely curious as I have always wondered what the reasoning was behind this particular line of thinking?

ISDW

scudzilla wrote: »

We have a 12month old Boxer, KC registered

We will be letting her have a litter when she's 2 1/2 - 3yrs old, why all the negativity about breeding?

Seems some real pretentious people here lately with the "OOOOOH, if she's not a champion or a show dog don't breed her"

We're letting her have 1 litter then will be getting her spayed and thats that

How is it pretentious? Can I ask why you want to breed her? What hereditary problems do Boxers have? Will you get all the health checks done?

ppink

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

All the advice here applies to the OPs dog and labs in generally, I think the reasons not to breed her have been clearly explained and no-one has been pretentious about it.

Can I ask you why you are going to have your boxer spayed after the first litter? Genuinely curious as I have always wondered what the reasoning was behind this particular line of thinking?

friend of mine told me she was doing the same with her rottweiler, allegedly it makes the female dog calmer. sounds like a wives tale to me as i cannot find any scientific proof of that.

scudzilla

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

All the advice here applies to the OPs dog and labs in generally, I think the reasons not to breed her have been clearly explained and no-one has been pretentious about it.

Can I ask you why you are going to have your boxer spayed after the first litter? Genuinely curious as I have always wondered what the reasoning was behind this particular line of thinking?

ISDW wrote: »

How is it pretentious? Can I ask why you want to breed her? What hereditary problems do Boxers have? Will you get all the health checks done?

Ask all you want but i won't be answering as will only get flamed on here by the 'Do not breed' brigade

ppink

scudzilla wrote: »

We have a 12month old Boxer, KC registered

We will be letting her have a litter when she's 2 1/2 - 3yrs old, why all the negativity about breeding?

Seems some real pretentious people here lately with the "OOOOOH, if she's not a champion or a show dog don't breed her"

We're letting her have 1 litter then will be getting her spayed and thats that

Reading this I did think there was anything pretentious. It can seem so at times i think but the advice here was twofold first being the health of the dog and second to preserve the breed, which is ligitimate or else in 50 years it will be all mutts.

dvet wrote: »

I'm a vet and personally would spay & neuter all of my dogs at 6 months, no question asked. Not only does it help to prevent the sad situation of unwanted dogs, the health benefits are huge. (The risk of mammary cancer increases with every heat that a bitch has, as well as with pregnancy...and pyometra is one of most common causes of death for older unspayed bitches - 2 great reasons to spay ASAP!)

By the way, thanks to the OP for bringing this up. All bitch owners should read this thread - some really good advice has been given here.

Cherry Blossom

scudzilla wrote: »

Ask all you want but i won't be answering as will only get flamed on here by the 'Do not breed' brigade

Fair enough, you have clearly made an informed decision.

ppink

scudzilla wrote: »

Ask all you want but i won't be answering as will only get flamed on here by the 'Do not breed' brigade

Is there much point in getting involved on a discussion forum then? .

ISDW

scudzilla wrote: »

Ask all you want but i won't be answering as will only get flamed on here by the 'Do not breed' brigade

ppink wrote: »

Is there much point in getting involved on a discussion forum then? .

Exactly what I was going to ask, why post it in a discussion forum, if you don't want to discuss it?

Miss Lockhart

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Can I ask you why you are going to have your boxer spayed after the first litter? Genuinely curious as I have always wondered what the reasoning was behind this particular line of thinking?

Obviously I can't answer for scudzilla, and maybe I'm missing something here, but I thought the idea of spaying after the first litter was fairly straightforward...

Although people who wish their bitch to have pups are willing to take the necessary steps to ensure she does not mate during heat, endure the inconvenience of trying to walk a bitch in heat etc until she is the right age for breeding - once the pups have arrived and they are sure that is all they want, then they are happier to go with the convenience spaying provides and the obvious health benefits such as no pyometra risk.

Again, maybe I'm missing something and it's more complicated than that.

lrushe

scudzilla wrote: »

Ask all you want but i won't be answering as will only get flamed on here

Hey I get 'flamed' all the time, but I still let my opinion stand up and be counted. You know the old saying "if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

scudzilla

Ok, here goes

We want to breed our dog, when we first got her we didn't know if we would or not, but over the last 12 months she has proved perfect in every way, her temperament, looks etc.

Of course we'll get her a full health check before we do anything and if anything is abnormal then we won;t go through with it.

3 very close friends of ours have already said they want a pup, and they are 'doggy' people. We will also keep one for ourself.

When she's had the pups we will get her spayed as 1 litter will be fine.

She's KC registered, will find a stud dog that is also KC, maybe even go across to the UK for a UK Kennel club stud dog

Cherry Blossom

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Obviously I can't answer for scudzilla, and maybe I'm missing something here, but I thought the idea of spaying after the first litter was fairly straightforward...

Although people who wish their bitch to have pups are willing to take the necessary steps to ensure she does not mate during heat, endure the inconvenience of trying to walk a bitch in heat etc until she is the right age for breeding - once the pups have arrived and they are sure that is all they want, then they are happier to go with the convenience spaying provides and the obvious health benefits such as no pyometra risk.

Again, maybe I'm missing something and it's more complicated than that.

Thanks for clarifying this, yes I did think there might be something more complicated which is why I asked. Personally I think if I owned a breeding bitch I would want to see how the progeny turned out before I would make the decision that I wouldn't breed her again rather than make that decision years in advance.

Cherry Blossom

I'm not sure why you thought you would get flamed for that

ISDW

scudzilla wrote: »

Ok, here goes

We want to breed our dog, when we first got her we didn't know if we would or not, but over the last 12 months she has proved perfect in every way, her temperament, looks etc.

Of course we'll get her a full health check before we do anything and if anything is abnormal then we won;t go through with it.

3 very close friends of ours have already said they want a pup, and they are 'doggy' people. We will also keep one for ourself.

When she's had the pups we will get her spayed as 1 litter will be fine.

She's KC registered, will find a stud dog that is also KC, maybe even go across to the UK for a UK Kennel club stud dog

OK, you see to me, thats responsible breeding, you are going to wait until she is mature enough, you will get all the relevant health tests done, and you are already looking for homes. Nothing wrong with that at all, I'm sure that you will also have puppy contracts that they have to come back to you if there are any problems throughout their lives. Trust me, once you raise those puppies for 8 weeks or more, you will insist on the contracts, no way is one of your babies going to have a harsh life:D

Thank you for replying.

Deeanimallover

scudzilla wrote: »

3 very close friends of ours have already said they want a pup, and they are 'doggy' people. We will also keep one for ourself.

How do you know they are going to wait until yours has a litter? Lots of people will say they want a pup but when the reality comes then they change their minds. Also what about the other pups in the litter, will you be prepared to keep on 2 or 3 extra puppies if you cant get a home for them? So you could end up with 4 or 5 dogs.

I hope I dont sound prententious but Im just being straight and pointing out the obvious.

ISDW

Deeanimallover wrote: »

How do you know they are going to wait until yours has a litter? Lots of people will say they want a pup but when the reality comes then they change their minds. Also what about the other pups in the litter, will you be prepared to keep on 2 or 3 extra puppies if you cant get a home for them? So you could end up with 4 or 5 dogs.

I hope I dont sound prententious but Im just being straight and pointing out the obvious.

Thats absolutely fine, I get what you're saying, but the advice on here is always to show the dog, to see if its a fine example before breeding. So, if scudzilla showed the dog a few times, and got told it was a good example, how would anything be any different? If she/he is going to do all the relevant health checks for the breed and is waiting until the bitch is mature, and is looking properly for a stud dog, is it any different to showing it first and then doing all these things? Which, seems to be accepted as fine by most people on here.

Yes, I know that there is a huge problem with dumped dogs, including pedigree, IKC registered dogs, but people like a particular breed, so they will always buy that breed of dog, and is it not better that they can get a pup from health tested parents, and where it has been born in a loving family home, rather than from a puppy farm?

I know that as I run a rescue my point of view might seem odd, but as I say, people will always want to buy certain breeds, so I just think its better if there are healthy, well adjusted pups out there for them to buy.

Deeanimallover

ISDW wrote: »

Thats absolutely fine, I get what you're saying, but the advice on here is always to show the dog, to see if its a fine example before breeding. So, if scudzilla showed the dog a few times, and got told it was a good example, how would anything be any different? If she/he is going to do all the relevant health checks for the breed and is waiting until the bitch is mature, and is looking properly for a stud dog, is it any different to showing it first and then doing all these things? Which, seems to be accepted as fine by most people on here.

Yes, I know that there is a huge problem with dumped dogs, including pedigree, IKC registered dogs, but people like a particular breed, so they will always buy that breed of dog, and is it not better that they can get a pup from health tested parents, and where it has been born in a loving family home, rather than from a puppy farm?

I know that as I run a rescue my point of view might seem odd, but as I say, people will always want to buy certain breeds, so I just think its better if there are healthy, well adjusted pups out there for them to buy.

Sorry I dont get why you quoted me I was merely pointing out that lots of people will tell you they will take a pup but when the time comes they realise the commitment and change their minds - I didnt say scudzilla shouldnt breed their dog? While I dont really agree with it he/she does seem to know what they are doing but I just found the line about "having 3 people say they want pups" as a little bit naive - no offense scudzilla - but I wouldnt want to be relying on those couple of people - boxers are a very popular breed im sure there are loads of them for sale and those people might get fed up waiting for one of scudzilla's pups and go off and get one somewhere else. But hopefully they have thought about all that!

ISDW

Deeanimallover wrote: »

Sorry I dont get why you quoted me

Because I was replying to what you had posted. If Scudzilla had shown the dog a few times, been told it was a good example of the breed, etc, etc, I don't know whether you would have posted the same information? Andreac has used her dog as a stud, she has mentioned this a few times on here, he is a stunning boy, but I don't remember anyone ever saying to her that she and the bitch's owner wouldn't be able to find homes for the pups.

Deeanimallover

ISDW wrote: »

Because I was replying to what you had posted If Scudzilla had shown the dog a few times, been told it was a good example of the breed, etc, etc, I don't know whether you would have posted the same information? Andreac has used her dog as a stud, she has mentioned this a few times on here, he is a stunning boy, but I don't remember anyone ever saying to her that she and the bitch's owner wouldn't be able to find homes for the pups.

I was just offerring scudzilla advice that when people hear the word "puppies" they all want one but when the time comes they may not - thats all!

I wouldnt go breeding a dog just coz 3 people said they will take a puppy and I'll keep one for myself - thats 4 puppies, what about the other 2 or 3 pups the dog might have? I know some people who cant get homes for purebred lab pups and they are giving them away for FREE - if everyone thought or was told their dog is a fine specimen and bred them then we would be in a much worse situation with unwanted pups than we already are.

ISDW

Deeanimallover wrote: »

I was just offerring scudzilla advice that when people hear the word "puppies" they all want one but when the time comes they may not - thats all!

I wouldnt go breeding a dog just coz 3 people said they will take a puppy and I'll keep one for myself - thats 4 puppies, what about the other 2 or 3 pups the dog might have? I know some people who cant get homes for purebred lab pups and they are giving them away for FREE - if everyone thought or was told their dog is a fine specimen and bred them then we would be in a much worse situation with unwanted pups than we already are.

I don't think thats why scudzilla said they were going to breed their dog. They have thought about it, think the dog is a good example, will have all the relevant health checks done, and then have one litter. Scudzilla didn't say they were only breeding because 3 people have said they want a pup, at least I didn't read it that way.

But my point still stands, then, do we leave it up to the puppy farmers to breed certain breeds that people want? Or just the people that show their dogs? Would we then end up with all GSDs being roachbacked, because only the ones who do well in shows, to that breed's standard would breed? If a KC registered dog has a great temperament, is a good looking dog, is a healthy dog, and research goes into finding a mate for the litter, then surely those are the kind of puppies that we should be encouraging people to look at?

There are always going to be people who will want to buy a boxer, is it not better to get one in these circumstances, than from someone who keeps the dog in a shed, doesn't do the health checks, and uses the same sire over and over again, who could possibly be related to the dam?

Deeanimallover

ISDW wrote: »

There are always going to be people who will want to buy a boxer, is it not better to get one in these circumstances, than from someone who keeps the dog in a shed, doesn't do the health checks, and uses the same sire over and over again, who could possibly be related to the dam?

Of course it is but Im sure they're are enough legit breeders out there though? I just think in this climate its maybe not the best time to be breeding as people just cant afford to be paying 500 euro for a pup (well some people can) as I said before (and im involved with a rescue too) more and more breeders are finding it very hard to get homes for the pups they have. Reason people buy from puppy farms? They are usually half the price of pups from "proper" breeders so maybe that something that needs to be looked at? Very few people actually give a sh!t about papers or the temperment of the mother etc they just want a good looking dog :rolleyes:

Cherry Blossom

scudzilla wrote: »

Ask all you want but i won't be answering as will only get flamed on here by the 'Do not breed' brigade

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Fair enough, you have clearly made an informed decision.

Apologies for this, it has now become clear why you didn't want to discuss this any further. However that is what the report button is for!

ISDW

Deeanimallover wrote: »

Of course it is but Im sure they're are enough legit breeders out there though? I just think in this climate its maybe not the best time to be breeding as people just cant afford to be paying 500 euro for a pup (well some people can) as I said before (and im involved with a rescue too) more and more breeders are finding it very hard to get homes for the pups they have. Reason people buy from puppy farms? They are usually half the price of pups from "proper" breeders so maybe that something that needs to be looked at? Very few people actually give a sh!t about papers or the temperment of the mother etc they just want a good looking dog :rolleyes:

What do you mean by legit breeders? Do you mean people who show their dogs?

Cherry Blossom

Deeanimallover wrote: »

Of course it is but Im sure they're are enough legit breeders out there though?

Just on this point I have to say that the evidence on this forum is to the contrary. The number of people who post here looking for advice because they are looking for a reputable breeder of whichever breed and find it impossible to find one far outweigh the number of posts from people considering breeding an IKC registered dog. Then you consider how many of those will actually follow up on it any further, this is probably very few.

I didn't see where Scudzilla said he was going to charge €500 for the pups either? For all we know he may give them away to properly vetted 5 star homes.

lrushe

ISDW wrote: »

So, if scudzilla showed the dog a few times, and got told it was a good example, how would anything be any different?.

The difference would be instead of it being the owners opinion that their dog is "perfect in every way, her temperament, looks etc." it would be fact.
Look most people have a breed that they love, that breed was formed around a standard, an expectation if you will of what was wanted or needed from that breed, so why would you not want to make sure you are continuing that standard after all it is what made the breed you love.
It is my opinion that everyone thinks their dogs is the best as the saying goes "every mother goose thinks their young is a swan" alot of people are afraid that if they show they will be told otherwise, if they weren't then why wouldn't they want to show off this perfect dog they have?
As I have said before if you breed without complying with the breed standard you don't love the breed you just love your own dog.

ISDW

lrushe wrote: »

The difference would be instead of it being the owners opinion that their dog is "perfect in every way, her temperament, looks etc." it would be fact.
Look most people have a breed that they love, that breed was formed around a standard, an expection if you will of what was wanted or needed from that breed, so why would you not want to make sure you are continuing that standard after all it is what made the breed you love.
It is my opinion that everyone thinks their dogs is the best as the saying goes "every mother goose thinks their young is a swan" alot of people are afraid that if they show they will be told otherwise, if they weren't then why wouldn't they want to show off this perfect dog they have?
As I have said before if you breed without complying with the breed standard you don't love the breed you just love your own dog.

But breed standards change, why is that, if the breed is perfect as it is? I know that the poor old gsd gets brought up time and time again, but seriously, how on earth did the breed standard change to what we see in show rings today? I would rather have a GSD with a straight back from a working kennel, even if it was white, than a show one with a roach back, that conforms to breed standard.

Why is a white gsd unacceptable in a show ring? If you put two gsds together and they throw a white, I don't understand why there is anything 'wrong' with that dog, its born as its meant to be surely? I understand certain things, in sibes, sometimes a pup with a wooly coat can be born, and shouldn't be bred from, that makes sense, they can overheat more easily while working. But what is wrong with a white GSD?

But also, as I've said on another thread somewhere, someone can have a breed that is fairly uncommon, so shows that dog and gets lot of firsts and possibly bobs, but only because there isn't much competition. But to me, that doesn't mean that it is a great example of the breed at all. Yet, it would be acceptable amongst most people for them to breed that dog. Or, the politics of showing, a dog from a certain kennel may become a champion because of who owns it, how much extra would that add onto the price of a puppy, or to its reputation? but does it really mean anything? Can a lot of the show dogs compete in their field as working dogs if necessary? I'd say no, because show dogs and working dogs from the same breed often are poles apart.

lrushe

ISDW wrote: »

But breed standards change, why is that, if the breed is perfect as it is? I know that the poor old gsd gets brought up time and time again, but seriously, how on earth did the breed standard change to what we see in show rings today? I would rather have a GSD with a straight back from a working kennel, even if it was white, than a show one with a roach back, that conforms to breed standard.

Why is a white gsd unacceptable in a show ring? If you put two gsds together and they throw a white, I don't understand why there is anything 'wrong' with that dog, its born as its meant to be surely? I understand certain things, in sibes, sometimes a pup with a wooly coat can be born, and shouldn't be bred from, that makes sense, they can overheat more easily while working. But what is wrong with a white GSD?

But also, as I've said on another thread somewhere, someone can have a breed that is fairly uncommon, so shows that dog and gets lot of firsts and possibly bobs, but only because there isn't much competition. But to me, that doesn't mean that it is a great example of the breed at all. Yet, it would be acceptable amongst most people for them to breed that dog. Or, the politics of showing, a dog from a certain kennel may become a champion because of who owns it, how much extra would that add onto the price of a puppy, or to its reputation? but does it really mean anything? Can a lot of the show dogs compete in their field as working dogs if necessary? I'd say no, because show dogs and working dogs from the same breed often are poles apart.

The GSD is perfect example of where health testing and showing or working should go hand in hand, there is no way those GSD with buckled back legs are passing health tests.
White GSD are unaccepted in the show ring because GSDs were developed to herd sheep on snow covered mountains, white dogs were hard to see and direct as they blended into their background therefore it is considered a fault.
Breeds have to start somewhere in the show ring, if it is a rare breed and a dog wins alot of titles because there aren't that many representations for that breed then it is the best example of the breed available at the time. A responsible breeder will then try to build on that foundation by sourcing a stud or bitch that will compliment the faults their dog might have, sourcing genes internationally if necessary and try to produce a next generation that is as close to the breed standard as possible. No dog is ever going to match 100% to the breed standard, it is something to strive towards. That said Labs and Boxers don't fall into that category, there are plenty of specimens to pit their dogs against to prove they should be breed from so really that is a moot point in this particular thread.
The breeder of one of my dogs runs a small operation, he owns and shows just 3 dogs yet he placed well in Crufts this year, by your logic he shouldn't have had a chance because of show politics and the fact that he is not a big kennels or widely known, yet he did.
One thing I will agree on though is the mix of working and confirmation titles, I like to know a dog can work as well as look good. When my Dad bred GSD (20+ years ago) his dogs had a mix of obedience, agiltiy and confirmation titles, many imported from Germany where they take their dogs health v.seriously and I think by far this is the best way forward in breeding dogs. His dogs not only looked like what a GSD should but they were fit to work.
Like I said before I don't condemn anyone from breeding but if you are going to breed then show that you are going to add something special to the current population of dogs out there, if not there is no need for anyone to breed at all.

ISDW

lrushe wrote: »

The GSD is perfect example of where health testing and showing or working should go hand in hand, there is no way those GSD with buckled back legs are passing health tests.
White GSD are unaccepted in the show ring because GSDs were developed to herd sheep on snow covered mountains, white dogs were hard to see and direct as they blended into their background therefore it is considered a fault.
Breeds have to start somewhere in the show ring, if it is a rare breed and a dog wins alot of titles because there aren't that many representations for that breed then it is the best example of the breed available at the time. A responsible breeder will then try to build on that foundation by sourcing a stud or bitch that will compliment the faults their dog might have, sourcing genes internationally if necessary and try to produce a next generation that is as close to the breed standard as possible. No dog is ever going to match 100% to the breed standard, it is something to strive towards. That said Labs and Boxers don't fall into that category, there are plenty of specimens to pit their dogs against to prove they should be breed from so really that is a moot point in this particular thread.
The breeder of one of my dogs runs a small operation, he owns and shows just 3 dogs yet he placed well in Crufts this year, by your logic he shouldn't have had a chance because of show politics and the fact that he is not a big kennels or widely known, yet he did.
One thing I will agree on though is the mix of working and confirmation titles, I like to know a dog can work as well as look good. When my Dad bred GSD (20+ years ago) his dogs had a mix of obedience, agiltiy and confirmation titles, many imported from Germany where they take their dogs health v.seriously and I think by far this is the best way forward in breeding dogs. His dogs not only looked like what a GSD should but they were fit to work.
Like I said before I don't condemn anyone from breeding but if you are going to breed then show that you are going to add something special to the current population of dogs out there, if not there is no need for anyone to breed at all.

Do you know, after I posted that I thought about the snow and the white sheep, and the dog blending in:D

No, I didn't say that someone with a small, not very well known kennel couldn't do well, in fact, maybe not being that well known would help. I've never shown, so I could be way off the mark, I'm just going on what I hear people saying at shows. The breed standards are subjective anyway aren't they? I've heard people say that theres no point in them being there on a particular day when they see who the judge is, and I also know people who have entered a show, and then not bothered travelling when they hear who the judge is. Not because of any politics, but because they know what 'type' of dog that judge prefers, and their dog isn't it. Yet their dog will conform to breed standard.

Just something you said earlier, I don't think that all of my dogs are the best, I love them all, but I know that they have faults. One of mine is a fantastic working dog, but is too big for the breed standard, and his tail curls too much. Now I'm not that worried about his size, because comparing him with the older standards, he would probably have been okay, but his tailset may indicate an issue with his back or hips, so I totally understand that part of the standard, and in fact when I got him hipscored it was very bad, so he was neutered straight away. So I do appreciate certain aspects of breed standards, but I just think that we have to bear in mind who sets the standards, and amends them.

Its an interesting discussion, and I'm sure we could have a very animated evening over a couple of pints batting it back and forth;)

lrushe

ISDW wrote: »

Do you know, after I posted that I thought about the snow and the white sheep, and the dog blending in:D

No, I didn't say that someone with a small, not very well known kennel couldn't do well, in fact, maybe not being that well known would help. I've never shown, so I could be way off the mark, I'm just going on what I hear people saying at shows. The breed standards are subjective anyway aren't they? I've heard people say that theres no point in them being there on a particular day when they see who the judge is, and I also know people who have entered a show, and then not bothered travelling when they hear who the judge is. Not because of any politics, but because they know what 'type' of dog that judge prefers, and their dog isn't it. Yet their dog will conform to breed standard.

Just something you said earlier, I don't think that all of my dogs are the best, I love them all, but I know that they have faults. One of mine is a fantastic working dog, but is too big for the breed standard, and his tail curls too much. Now I'm not that worried about his size, because comparing him with the older standards, he would probably have been okay, but his tailset may indicate an issue with his back or hips, so I totally understand that part of the standard, and in fact when I got him hipscored it was very bad, so he was neutered straight away. So I do appreciate certain aspects of breed standards, but I just think that we have to bear in mind who sets the standards, and amends them.

Its an interesting discussion, and I'm sure we could have a very animated evening over a couple of pints batting it back and forth;)

It's true judges do have their preferred 'type' but in order for a dogs to become a champion he/she must earn I think it's 40 Green Star points under 3-4 different judges depending on the shows (if my memory serves me), if a dog is picked out to this degree by different judges, to me, that would suggest a common agreement that the dog merits the titles it wins.

It's not that I think you yourself think your dogs are perfect, in reality our views aren't miles apart, but some people can't see the wood for the trees therefore I think there should be a yard stick to measure what perfection is and that's where the breed standard comes in, it's something to strive for but it should not foresake the health of the dog.

Indeed myself I have 2 pedigree dogs who I think are beautiful and have the best personalities. I've had people ask for pups from them but I know myself they don't come next to near their breed standard so they have been spayed and neutered. Do I think they are any less of a dog because of that, less beautiful, less of a joy to be around, less worthy of being my pet, absolutely not, I just believe they shouldn't be bred from.

If by that I sound pretentious, well then I guess that's just the hat I'll have to wear.

By the way mines a tall, frothy Budweiser if you're buyin'

andreac

Hey Irushe, the system is changed now. Its 7 Green Stars now under 7 different judges with 1 being one after the dog is 15 months old.

Some people say this system is easy to make up champions esp in lower numerical breeds but in the higher number breeds like boxers, rotties etc its quite hard, so i count myself very lucky to have made up a champion with my first rottie:D

Your posts are fantastic by the way, very knowledgeable and put across very well.:)

lrushe

andreac wrote: »

Hey Irushe, the system is changed now. Its 7 Green Stars now under 7 different judges with 1 being one after the dog is 15 months old.

Ahhh I see, I haven't been around a show ring in about 15 years so I guess I'm a bit out of date
Hoped to get back into it again with my Rottie girl but time restraints have prevented me so far, if I haven't got to it by next July I'll just spay her and concentrate on some fun agility instead.
I take my hat off to anyone who does get their dog their championship, it takes real hard work and committment.