Minimum Wage

drunkmonkey

Has there been any talk of touching Minimum wage in the Budget, What's peoples views on it?

amacachi

Not sure it's set in the budget but it could only be a good move to start sliding it. Cue "race to the bottom" arguments.

snubbleste

The minimum wage is legislation.
So it is not a budgetary matter.

Duiske

snubbleste wrote:

The minimum wage is legislation.
So it is not a budgetary matter.

True, but those on minimum wage are likely to be dragged into the tax net by the budget though. Technically not a cut to the minimum wage itself, but take home pay for those on it will be hit.

johnnyskeleton

They will have to cut social welfare first. Otherwise there is the chance that welfare benefits will outweigh a minimum wage job in absolute terms.

Although a lot of people will argue that it is unfair to cut the minimum wage, it was €7.65 in 2006 which is only 4 short years ago and was at the height of the bubble. So, given that many indicators suggest we are back around 2003 levels (e.g. house prices, GNP etc), reducing minimum wage to 2006 levels is hardly unfair.

kippy

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

They will have to cut social welfare first. Otherwise there is the chance that welfare benefits will outweigh a minimum wage job in absolute terms.

Although a lot of people will argue that it is unfair to cut the minimum wage, it was €7.65 in 2006 which is only 4 short years ago and was at the height of the bubble. So, given that many indicators suggest we are back around 2003 levels (e.g. house prices, GNP etc), reducing minimum wage to 2006 levels is hardly unfair.

They would have to be cut around the same time to make it work, as you mention.
Not sure which would work better, bringing the minimum wage into the tax net or cutting it, I suspect the former would be a better option.

dlofnep

Anyone on the minimum wage in favour of it being reduced, or is this just something from people living comfortable? The minimum wage is fine the way it is. Companies here have the luxury of an extremely low tax rate. If they want us to work for less - then raise the corp tax. They can't have it both ways.

amacachi

dlofnep wrote: »

Anyone on the minimum wage in favour of it being reduced, or is this just something from people living comfortable? The minimum wage is fine the way it is. Companies here have the luxury of an extremely low tax rate. If they want us to work for less - then raise the corp tax. They can't have it both ways.

I'm on a pay the same rate as the dole and am in favour of it coming down, otherwise Min. Wage cuts would be ridiculous.

dlofnep

amacachi wrote: »

I'm on a pay the same rate as the dole and am in favour of it coming down, otherwise Min. Wage cuts would be ridiculous.

So you'd be in favour of taking a pay cut? How many hours a week do you work to be on the same as the dole?

kippy

dlofnep wrote: »

Anyone on the minimum wage in favour of it being reduced, or is this just something from people living comfortable? The minimum wage is fine the way it is. Companies here have the luxury of an extremely low tax rate. If they want us to work for less - then raise the corp tax. They can't have it both ways.

Its the same as every sector of society, of course people who are in that area will resist cuts.
I personally have absolutely NO issues with cuts in my wages provided the cost of my living come down by a similar amount. Wages coming down across the board SHOULD mean a cut to the cost if living, should business pass on SOME of this saving to them.

Duiske

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

They will have to cut social welfare first. Otherwise there is the chance that welfare benefits will outweigh a minimum wage job in absolute terms.

Exactly right. There could even be economic advantage to leaving the minimum wage as it is, and NOT bringing it into the tax net. It would make minimum wage jobs more attractive than social welfare. Depends of course how deep the SW cuts go.

Sadly though, I fear the kneejerk reaction in this budget. The bottom line will be increased revenues, and the bigger picture will not even be glanced at.

amacachi

dlofnep wrote: »

So you'd be in favour of taking a pay cut? How many hours a week do you work to be on the same as the dole?

Sorry I'm getting the BTEA, which is paid at the same rate as the dole. Once I pay back a loan for fees and for the bus each week a 10% cut would leave me with about 20 quid a week, but fair's fair.

dlofnep

amacachi wrote: »

Sorry I'm getting the BTEA, which is paid at the same rate as the dole. Once I pay back a loan for fees and for the bus each week a 10% cut would leave me with about 20 quid a week, but fair's fair.

So you're not working for the minimum wage?

amacachi

dlofnep wrote: »

So you're not working for the minimum wage?

No, I'm not, I was making the point that I'm fine with me taking a cut as well.

Mister men

Should be raised to 10 euro an hour to encourage people to sign off the dole.

amacachi

Mister men wrote: »

Should be raised to 10 euro an hour to encourage people to sign off the dole.

Or the dole could be cut.

dlofnep

Mister men wrote: »

Should be raised to 10 euro an hour to encourage people to sign off the dole.

That wouldn't be viable for many businesses.

Wicklowrider

Did any of you see Des Bishop's series about living (or attempting)to live on a minimum wage? Its barely possible to live on minimum wage but its just enough to keep people above the medical card etc.

I bet the people here who think its correct to cut it are also the same people who expect top rate service in restaurants, from call centres and shops and want their public toilets and facilities perfect.

Thankfully its a long time since I worked for low wages but its something I will never forget. If people had to watch every item they put in their shopping trolley, adding up in their head to avoid the embarrasment of not having the money to pay for their shopping they'd know what I am talking about.

danbohan

Mister men wrote: »

Should be raised to 10 euro an hour to encourage people to sign off the dole.

hopefully you are joking ? . could it be that in 2010 that we still have people as deluded as this who are not public servants ?

longhalloween

Mister men wrote: »

Should be raised to 10 euro an hour to encourage people to sign off the dole.

Sign off to what? Minimum wage jobs are thin on the ground as it is.
Wasn't there 13000 applications for 700 temp Argos jobs.

Social welfare should be a split payment, a small sum of cash, supplemented by food, energy and clothing stamps

This makes it less attractive to young people living at home with no dependents or bills, and more beneficial to families reliant on SW

wolfpawnat

Mister men wrote: »

Should be raised to 10 euro an hour to encourage people to sign off the dole.

Would be great if there were jobs for people on the dole to get wouldn't it! :rolleyes:

I love that attitude, people are on the dole because they do not want to work, forget the fact that there are factories and businesses closing left right and centre! ergo the workers are then unemployed!

Dole is being cut, all Social welfare payments are going to be attacked. They have informed us of this already!

wolfpawnat

longhalloween wrote: »

Sign off to what? Minimum wage jobs are thin on the ground as it is.
Wasn't there 13000 applications for 700 temp Argos jobs.

Social welfare should be a split payment, a small sum of cash, supplemented by food, energy and clothing stamps

This makes it less attractive to young people living at home with no dependents or bills, and more beneficial to families reliant on SW

Agreed, a bit of money for transport and the like, about 80 of mine goes on food, 50 on rent and 45 on bills per week. So for someone like me it is handy, although I do not buy clothes very often, so maybe clothes and food should all be one!

snubbleste

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Agreed, a bit of money for transport and the like, about 80 of mine goes on food, 50 on rent and 45 on bills per week. So for someone like me it is handy, although I do not buy clothes very often, so maybe clothes and food should all be one!

€80 on food a week? :eek:

wolfpawnat

snubbleste wrote: »

€80 on food a week? :eek:

Your telling me! And I swear there is no luxury items there, nappies, and baby formula are the worst though they are about 20e for the 2 alone. They add the food he eats, cereal, fruit, pototoes, cheap meat, and the like, It all adds up! Plus things like washing powder, toilet paper and that about once a month each too.

southsiderosie

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Did any of you see Des Bishop's series about living (or attempting)to live on a minimum wage? Its barely possible to live on minimum wage but its just enough to keep people above the medical card etc.

I bet the people here who think its correct to cut it are also the same people who expect top rate service in restaurants, from call centres and shops and want their public toilets and facilities perfect.

Thankfully its a long time since I worked for low wages but its something I will never forget. If people had to watch every item they put in their shopping trolley, adding up in their head to avoid the embarrasment of not having the money to pay for their shopping they'd know what I am talking about.

Minimum wage for those with 2 years work experience is 8.65.

8.65 * 40 = 346

Some of this will be lost to tax (I don't know what the tax rates are in Ireland), but for rounding sake, let's say that you are left with 300/week

For single people with no kids, it is not hard to live on 300/week, even in Dublin. I did it for 6 months. I shared a house with other people to cut down on rent and utilities expenses. I shopped at Aldi on a strict budget, and often walked where I needed to go instead of taking the bus or train. I also cooked most of the time at home, although I did buy coffee and a newspaper daily. I didn't feel embarrassed or deprived; I was pretty careful with my money when I had a well-paying job.

Traditionally many people working minimum wage jobs were students, or people working part-time to top up their income. In recent years, immigrants have taken most of these jobs. Most of these kinds of jobs weren't meant to be lifetime careers. As for service quality, in the US, servers earn less than minimum wage and work for tips, and the service quality is far better than what you will find in much of Ireland and Europe in general. And nobody really expects great customer service in other low-wage jobs because people understand the nature of those industries.

I don't think that Ireland necessarily needs to cut the minimum wage further, but certainly the dole and associated benefits can be cut so as to make working a more feasible and attractive option. Or better yet, so as not to punish people between jobs, have a sliding scale where after a year the dole rate is reduced every six months until it is less than the minimum wage.

jdooley28

Can't really touch it if they don't bring down JSB/JSA as this would leave even more people in a position where they are better off not working

Kinetic^

Mister men wrote: »

Should be raised to 10 euro an hour to encourage people to sign off the dole.

Yes, let's raise the minimum wage to encourage employer's to take people on..... There has been no incentive for employer's to create jobs and the WPP from FAS is a bit of a joke.

It needs to stay the same and the social welfare needs to be cut by 10-20%.

Duiske

Mister men wrote: »

Should be raised to 10 euro an hour to encourage people to sign off the dole.

And that would drive more people into poverty than it would actually help.

If staffing costs rise, cost of goods and services rise to compensate. With cuts in social welfare rates this would push already struggling families to the limit.

The alternative to raising the cost of goods or services is staff reductions, meaning an extra drain on the social welfare budget.

Its no win whatever way you look at it.

drunkmonkey

southsiderosie wrote: »

Minimum wage for those with 2 years work experience is 8.65.

8.65 * 40 = 346

Have I missed something, I thought minimum wage was 8.65 regardless of what experience you have. That's one of my main gripes with it. It don't allow for people with no experience who are not worth as much to an employer as experienced people.

southsiderosie

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Have I missed something, I thought minimum wage was 8.65 regardless of what experience you have. That's one of my main gripes with it. It don't allow for people with no experience who are not worth as much to an employer as experienced people.

There are sub-minimum rates for young workers and trainees.

Atlantic Dawn

It should be set to the minimum wage of our biggest trading partner the UK, €6.82 (£5.93), public servant wages, dole and other social welfare should also be cut to UK levels.

drunkmonkey

southsiderosie wrote: »

There are sub-minimum rates for young workers and trainees.

I didn't know that. I thought anyone over 18 got full minimum wage\\

• An employee who is in the first year of employment since the age of 18 is entitled to €6.92 per hour (80% of minimum wage)
• An employee who is in the second year of employment since the date of first employment over the age of 18 is entitled to €7.79 per hour (90% of the minimum wage)

rebel10

Jeebus. Didn't even realise it was that much. Remember my first job in a local shop, £1.75 an hour. Times have changed

femur61

Couldn't agree more.

wolfpawnat

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It should be set to the minimum wage of our biggest trading partner the UK, €6.82 (£5.93), public servant wages, dole and other social welfare should also be cut to UK levels.

The cost of living in the UK is far less. So I would agree with you, if our milk cost 59p for 2 litres too and not €1.79!

Look up the reasons for the costs there before posting:rolleyes:

kippy

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The cost of living in the UK is far less. So I would agree with you, if our milk cost 59p for 2 litres too and not €1.79!

Look up the reasons for the costs there before posting:rolleyes:

I do believe that is a chicken and egg situation, wages driving the other.

Atlantic Dawn

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The cost of living in the UK is far less. So I would agree with you, if our milk cost 59p for 2 litres too and not €1.79!

Look up the reasons for the costs there before posting:rolleyes:

Eh the general idea is that by bringing the wage down everything else comes down over time, simple economics.

mikemac

I watched the Des Bishop show in Waterford earlier today

He was on €6.35, it was filmed quite a few years ago

femur61

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The cost of living in the UK is far less. So I would agree with you, if our milk cost 59p for 2 litres too and not €1.79!

Look up the reasons for the costs there before posting:rolleyes:

Eh aren't wages driving up the cost of living. Goods and services prices have to be set in order to cover minimum wage.

wolfpawnat

Yes, you can crash wages and SW payments, as soon as the cost of living comes down to match it. The only concern I have is would have is, would the suppliers or the supermarkets suffer. Farmers have it tough enough. Only about 1.22 for a gallon a milk!

What I find is very interesting is the government are bringing out these figures testing the waters and we are all fighting among ourselves about who shouldn't be cut when truth be told we should all be rallying together about the extravagant lives the TDs have with there €3000 a week plus expenses!

kippy

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Yes, you can crash wages and SW payments, as soon as the cost of living comes down to match it. The only concern I have is would have is, would the suppliers or the supermarkets suffer. Farmers have it tough enough. Only about 1.22 for a gallon a milk!

Time for the farmers to come together and cut out the middle men me thinks.

wolfpawnat

kippy wrote: »

Time for the farmers to come together and cut out the middle men me thinks.

Exactly! They are the ones out at 6am in the pouring rain herding cattle to milk them, there needs to be incentives to keep the children of farmers on the land rather than to leave in search of better work overseas.

A sheep is sold to the abattoir for €70 (according to a farmer I know) and how much do is a few chops and legs. I couldn't afford lamb if I tried!

Nijmegen

Chicken and the egg, Wages vs Costs.

For costs to come down, we need wages to come down.

For wages to come down, we need costs to come down.

It's no good telling people that costs will come down in the long run, because people don't eat in the long run.

On the other hand, it's difficult to see how the government could intervene to help bring down costs without screwing it up (as they are in the habit of doing), but it does seem that we need a 'social partnership' agreement between workers, landlords, grocery shops/suppliers and so forth.

People need confidence that when they take a hit on their wages, they'll be able to afford to eat.

That's the missing piece of the puzzle. But it's critical that costs come down in the economy and our competitiveness increase.

There's also the question as to whether or not the government will take a short or a long term view: Tax minimum wage, they help bridge some of their deficit gap with cash (assuming they've also cut SW and people aren't dropping out of MW jobs.)

Or, they cut the minimum wage and stimulate the economy - the real driver of our eventual recovery, not taxation - in the long run.

Like people, the government has a chicken and egg choice to make.

Duiske

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Eh the general idea is that by bringing the wage down everything else comes down over time, simple economics.

Eh, some things will come down. Some things will not, and could possibly rise in cost, mortgage/loan repayments and energy/fuel being just two.

This country has a massive problem due to the easy credit thats been thrown about for the past 10 years. If people are struggling now, how will they manage if wages drop and interest payments rise ?
If they lose their homes, the state will have to pay to house them. Then the banks are left with a house worth half the outstanding loan. The banks then run into further liquidity problems and need more state bail-out money.

Same thing with energy costs. The price of getting to work or heating your home is not going to drop.

Vicious circle. Theres no way we can get near the British cost of living for at least the next 20 years.

storker

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Eh the general idea is that by bringing the wage down everything else comes down over time, simple economics.

Of course, businesses always pass savings on to the customer. :rolleyes:

Stork

Nijmegen

storker wrote: »

Of course, businesses always pass savings on to the customer. :rolleyes:

Stork

If people can't afford their products or services, they have to.

Do you think it's altruism that has our supermarket chains cutting one anothers throats on deals, own brand ranges, and so forth?

Mister men

danbohan wrote: »

hopefully you are joking ? . could it be that in 2010 that we still have people as deluded as this who are not public servants ?

I'm deadly serious. I know of several people (one family member) who refuse to sign off and get a minimum wage job. There are jobs out there plenty of non Irish taking them. 10 euro an hour and 20% dole cut will force the slackers to get a job.

Sols12

Mister men wrote: »

I'm deadly serious. I know of several people (one family member) who refuse to sign off and get a minimum wage job. There are jobs out there plenty of non Irish taking them. 10 euro an hour and 20% dole cut will force the slackers to get a job.

Other posters have pointed out why 10 euro per hour is un realistic and yet you still say it :rolleyes:
A reduction in social welfare payments will result in more interest in minimum paid jobs. And thats the bottom line!

wolfpawnat

Mister men wrote: »

I'm deadly serious. I know of several people (one family member) who refuse to sign off and get a minimum wage job. There are jobs out there plenty of non Irish taking them. 10 euro an hour and 20% dole cut will force the slackers to get a job.

Sols12 wrote: »

Other posters have pointed out why 10 euro per hour is un realistic and yet you still say it :rolleyes:
A reduction in social welfare payments will result in more interest in minimum paid jobs. And thats the bottom line!

Where are these jobs of which you speak? There are thousands apply for jobs each week!

Get the Celtic Tiger Ideals out of you heads. This is no longer about the scumbags who will not work, but those made redundant and cannot find it!!!!!

196 a week is hard to live on and the ESB and Gas do NOT care if you have enough to live on or not, they just want their share. Any more than 10% and no one on SW can afford to live anymore!

If you are convinced SW is so good, give me your job and you can eat potatoes and cheap Tesco meat that is like rubber, while trying to juggle who to less likely to cut your supply this week, the ESB or Gas, and can only pay a fraction of what you owe them!

Xmas is coming and I thank god my son is too young for santa and xmas dinner because I have not even saved €50 for it, because when I do, another bill is in the door!

michellie

Mister men wrote: »

I'm deadly serious. I know of several people (one family member) who refuse to sign off and get a minimum wage job. There are jobs out there plenty of non Irish taking them. 10 euro an hour and 20% dole cut will force the slackers to get a job.

Where are the jobs though??? You really are ignorant! My boyfriend was left go from his job as a carpenter in 2008(the year we had just bought a house and had a baby) And has been going to and from temporary jobs since then, at the minute he is not working(always looking for one), so if SW gets cut were gona be in the s**t again. Im working part time, luckily I managed to find a permanent job,so its secure but it is only part time wages!

Dont paint everyone with the same brush. *****:mad:

ntlbell

michellie wrote: »

Where are the jobs though??? You really are ignorant! My boyfriend was left go from his job as a carpenter in 2008(the year we had just bought a house and had a baby) And has been going to and from temporary jobs since then, at the minute he is not working(always looking for one), so if SW gets cut were gona be in the s**t again. Im working part time, luckily I managed to find a permanent job,so its secure but it is only part time wages!

Dont paint everyone with the same brush. *****:mad:

Unfortunatley it sounds like you made some bad financial desicions at the worst possible time when the dog in the street was talking about the problems ahead before 2006.

apart from that tho

where are the jobs? there might be a hell of a lot more jobs if the minimum wage is abolished. a lot of companies can't open positions because they simply can't afford to pay minimum wage.

So social welfare payments need to come right down and eithier a large reduction in minimum wage or abolish it all together, the market should decide on the level of wages, not a clueless goverment.