Metro North or DART Underground

DWCommuter

This may have been done before, but considering the changed economic circumstances, lets roll it out again. Which project is the most important and should be built as a priority?

sdanseo

Edit: No, can't decide. As far as the city's economy goes, the Metro will buy more jobs as it will be serving new areas where the DART won't really. It also links the airport which is something we should have done decades ago.

BluntGuy

The DART Underground as it does far more to integrate existing services.

Telchak

I'm all for Metro North, but I honestly thought it wasn't even questioned that DART Underground is far more important

DWCommuter

Telchak wrote: »

I'm all for Metro North, but I honestly thought it wasn't even questioned that DART Underground is far more important

Interesting point Telchak. But as Ive alluded to many times over the years (and in particular, over the last year) DU is a project that Joe Public doesn't discuss or feel the need to vent over in the letters section of a newspaper. (unless you're a blow in up in Inchicore Square or a resident of East Wall.) Its largely under the radar. MN has become a surreal exercise in glam. A glam that has seduced politicians, media and the public alike. I think its all driven by this insecure need to be like other European cities and have a "Metro". But as we all know here, we actually have a metro. Its called the DART. Build DU and it becomes a very expansive metro system. But both the Government and the media appear to see the DART as just.......well.... the "DART".:rolleyes:

Of course CIE havent done themselves a single favour over the years in their approach to running a rail service and they are absolutely burdened by decades of negative public opinion and ridicule. (a lot of it self inflicted) Therefore its not surprising to see the creation of the RPA and their politically and financially "Light" metro. That said DU is a great idea. Absolutely no doubt about it whatsoever. In fairness its underground aspects have been on the cards since the 1970s anyway.

The DART has been left so long without real expansion (Malahide and Greystones were fops) and been subsumed into Dublin culture via CIE to such a degree that its seen as "old" despite its potential. Therefore DU doesn't have the WOW factor that this mickey mouse effort known as Metro North has created for itself through being seen as new.

DU is essential. The Metro dinky can wait.

IngazZagni

DWCommuter wrote: »

Of course CIE havent done themselves a single favour over the years in their approach to running a rail service and they are absolutely burdened by decades of negative public opinion and ridicule. (a lot of it self inflicted) Therefore its not surprising to see the creation of the RPA and their politically and financially "Light" metro. That said DU is a great idea. Absolutely no doubt about it whatsoever. In fairness its underground aspects have been on the cards since the 1970s anyway.

The DART has been left so long without real expansion (Malahide and Greystones were fops) and been subsumed into Dublin culture via CIE to such a degree that its seen as "old" despite its potential. Therefore DU doesn't have the WOW factor that this mickey mouse effort known as Metro North has created for itself through being seen as new.

DU is essential. The Metro dinky can wait.

I don't think anyone denies the success of DART. But DART really only serves people living along the route just like with any other rail network. Metro North is really no different than DART and the only reason it goes undergrond is because there simply is no overground space in the city centre. MN, like DART will serve people all along its route from the Green to Swords as well as providing an important link to the airport which will be essential as traffic volumes increase over the next decade.

DU I see as a connector which yes is highly important but will only be efficient if it connects with other rail networks like MN. There's no point in having a linker if there's not much to link.

So whatever it's called, Metro, Dart Underground or Luas Underground, it really doesn't matter, the bottom line is that we need an efficient rail network that will serve many communities.

For me priority 1 = Metro North, priority 2 = Dart Underground. If they can be built together and they can make it cost effective, even better.

Cool Mo D

I don't think that choice is there. DART underground is more important, but it's way behind Metro North. Realistically, the current government only have one choice - build Metro North, or don't build it. They will be gone by the time the choice goes around for DART underground, and it's hard to tell who will actually be calling the shots and what their priorities will be.

That's why I say the Government needs to go ahead with Metro North - it's still a very important project, and it's the only one on the Governments plate at the moment.

icdg

IngazZagni wrote: »

I don't think anyone denies the success of DART. But DART really only serves people living along the route just like with any other rail network. Metro North is really no different than DART and the only reason it goes undergrond is because there simply is no overground space in the city centre. MN, like DART will serve people all along its route from the Green to Swords as well as providing an important link to the airport which will be essential as traffic volumes increase over the next decade.

DU I see as a connector which yes is highly important but will only be efficient if it connects with other rail networks like MN. There's no point in having a linker if there's not much to link.

So whatever it's called, Metro, Dart Underground or Luas Underground, it really doesn't matter, the bottom line is that we need an efficient rail network that will serve many communities.

For me priority 1 = Metro North, priority 2 = Dart Underground. If they can be built together and they can make it cost effective, even better.

Metro North is just one underground tram line (what they call "pre-metro" on the continent) and while important, is a stand-alone project. DART Underground will link up the disparate lines in the city - in particular, it makes the largely stand-alone Kildare line service an integral part of the Dublin railway system and will allow one to do a rail journey from any Dublin station to any other Dublin station without taking a bus or tram. Part of the project is the electrification of the Maynooth and Kildare lines which is also important in terms of being able to increase frequency on these lines.

Metrostar

For the city of Dublin and for sustainable urban planning: Metro North. One look at the benefits says it all. Metro North connects a strategic economic corridor between Ireland's international airport, Swords, universities, hospitals and the central business district of Dublin. It has a solid business case.

Dart Underground, more a hygiene initiative to connect a disjointed outer Dublin rail system, serves a different purpose. It helps alleviate traffic congestion in periperheral areas during peak hours, but projected passenger numbers are wildly optimistic. A similar system, CityRail in Sydney, runs empty trains outside peak hours becauase the demand is simply not there; it's a commuter demand rather than a demand that serves different mobility patterns. Remember, Dart Underground's stations serve mainly semi detached housing spread out over 60 kilometers passing through green fields and low rise industrial areas. It's unrealistic to think that passenger numbers would surpass that of the Metro North economic corridor. With money tight, number 1 priority is to invest in Metro North and plan now for future growth.

Important to note - both projects have fruitful synergies (eg. interchanges at Drumcondra and the Green). So in the long run it's cheaper to build both together. If money becomes an issue, there is always the option of using the pension reserve fund which was built up during the Celtic Tiger years.

Right now, with tender prices on the floor, this is the IDEAL moment to start building these projects for the good of growth, for Ireland's future, and for the immense social and economic benefits both projects will bring. Let's not trap outselves into a foolish mindset that we can only afford one (or none) of them.

We could afford to bail out the banks (50 BILLION). Surely we can spare 5 billion for two vital pieces of national infrastructure that will last 100 years.

Pete_Cavan

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I don't think that choice is there. DART underground is more important, but it's way behind Metro North. Realistically, the current government only have one choice - build Metro North, or don't build it. They will be gone by the time the choice goes around for DART underground, and it's hard to tell who will actually be calling the shots and what their priorities will be.

That's why I say the Government needs to go ahead with Metro North - it's still a very important project, and it's the only one on the Governments plate at the moment.

I made this point on another thread yesterday and was about to do it again here but you beat me to it. ABP has only just granted permission for MN but the initial application was made back in 2008, whereas DU railway order application was only made in June of this year. There is not a choice between one or the other. Honestly, I think if we havnt the balls to build MN now we will not have the balls to build DU when the time comes.

Zebra3

icdg wrote: »

Metro North is just one underground tram line (what they call "pre-metro" on the continent) and while important, is a stand-alone project.

Stand alone?

Despite linking with the Maynooth line and both Luas lines?

mgmt

Zebra3 wrote: »

Stand alone?

Despite linking with the Maynooth line and both Luas lines?

DU will benefit North, South and West Dublin. Not just a select few on the northside.

markpb

mgmt wrote: »

DU will benefit North, South and West Dublin. Not just a select few on the northside.

DU will benefit people who already live on the three corridors - the Dart line (with 50% catchment in the sea) and two commuter lines. Apart from covering more of the city centre, it adds nothing to any other area in Dublin.

Irish Rail's predictions for increased passenger numbers assumes that people in *already served* areas will transfer to the train if the level of service improves. They cannot assume any more than that because no new areas are served. Also, since most of the commuter lines have their stations outside of the city, it will do nothing for increased densification of Dublin.

For once, I think we have a good transport plan and it involves building both lines. They both serve very good purposes and they complement each other very well.

mgmt

markpb wrote: »

DU will benefit people who already live on the three corridors - the Dart line (with 50% catchment in the sea) and two commuter lines. Apart from covering more of the city centre, it adds nothing to any other area in Dublin.

Irish Rail's predictions for increased passenger numbers assumes that people in *already served* areas will transfer to the train if the level of service improves. They cannot assume any more than that because no new areas are served. Also, since most of the commuter lines have their stations outside of the city, it will do nothing for increased densification of Dublin.

For once, I think we have a good transport plan and it involves building both lines. They both serve very good purposes and they complement each other very well.

Look at the route. Swords and Dublin Airport are well catered for at the moment. Maynooth line caters for Drumcondra (new DART line could have stop closer to the Mater). Luas BXD will connect green line to O'Connell street and Parnell square. Metro North is not needed.

D.L.R.

Uh, how about an option of "Both".

I don't see a realistic alternative to these projects, other than settling for a really crap city/country.

Plowman

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DWCommuter

Plowman wrote: »

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The poll is based on only one of them getting the green light due to economic conditions. Hence which one is a priority?

nordisk celt83

Plowman wrote: »

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You're right in pointing out that the current DART line isn't always packed to the rafters off-peak, but its passenger numbers would increase hugely if DART Underground were built.
Most people in the suburbs want to head to the grafton street area of the city, and at present the DART line is a good 10-15mins walk away from the actual centre of the city, so it isn't necessarily popular as a form of transport.
If and when DART Underground and Metro North are built they will bring people to where they actually want to go (Grafton St), and not some station 10-15minutes away. This, will lead to a huge increase in DART numbers!!!

nordisk celt83

Just to add:

The significance that both these projects will have in transforming the economic engine of the country really doesn't seem to be appreciated by the masses.
To all the rural naysayers out there, you really need to have some foresight... These projects will keep you over-subsidised, living in one-off bunglaows, paying low taxes and driving Ford Mondeo's till the cows come home. It will lead to Dubs having a better economy and more people working that can pay the taxes to keep the country going.

I think both should go ahead, but if push came to shove would opt for the DU.

BluntGuy

Metrostar wrote: »

Remember, Dart Underground's stations serve mainly semi detached housing spread out over 60 kilometers passing through green fields and low rise industrial areas.

St.Stephen's Green, Heuston, Pearse, Docklands and Christchurch do not fit that description I'm afraid.

In fact that's exactly what the last 2 and a half kilometres of Metro North were set to be, before ABP thankfully gave them the chop.

It's unrealistic to think that passenger numbers would surpass that of the Metro North economic corridor. With money tight, number 1 priority is to invest in Metro North and plan now for future growth.

It isn't really actually. Dart Underground goes directly into the city centre to many of the areas people want to go. It will enable a lot more interchange opportunities. Even without MN it still connects to the Luas Red Line (twice), Luas Green Line, commuter services, intercity services and the proposed second Dart line. It serves far higher density areas than the Metro North "economic corridor", as you put it. It has the potential to make the Dart network far, far more attractive.

As for planning for future growth, Docklands and Heuston are the places it should be happening, they are good areas for high-density development. Swords (or worse still, north of Swords) is not the place it should be happening. Inside the M50 is where development should be focussed.

That isn't to say I disagree that Dart Underground and Metro North would complement each other, but I feel the latter is far more reliant on the former than vice verca. If it's a straight up choice, Dart Underground.

mgmt

BluntGuy wrote: »

As for planning for future growth, Docklands and Heuston are the places it should be happening, they are good areas for high-density development. Swords (or worse still, north of Swords) is not the place it should be happening. Inside the M50 is where development should be focussed.

Along with the new four-courts, DU will really stimulate the area around Hueston. Hopefully in time the Guinness brewery can add to the area too.

Cool Mo D

DWCommuter wrote: »

The poll is based on only one of them getting the green light due to economic conditions. Hence which one is a priority?

I can't imagine a situation where Metro North is cancelled, and the DART Underground goes ahead. If one is gone, I'd be pretty sure the other will be quietly dropped.

Plowman

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DWCommuter

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I can't imagine a situation where Metro North is cancelled, and the DART Underground goes ahead. If one is gone, I'd be pretty sure the other will be quietly dropped.

I'd agree with you completely. However for the sake of debate and historical record, its important that little internet polls like this take place. We owe it to the next generation.

dowlingm

DU is Dublin's Crossrail. Like London's Crossrail (first proposed 1989), we can build it now or spend a lot more to build it later.

weehamster

I just simply love those who voted for "Neither - We can live without them."

Can any one of these voters please explain to us how we can live without either the DART UG/Extensions and/or Metro North in the near future. :rolleyes:
(Or are these voters, the ones who think we should have the so called Rapid Bus Transit instead.)

andrew163

mgmt wrote: »

Look at the route. Swords and Dublin Airport are well catered for at the moment. Maynooth line caters for Drumcondra (new DART line could have stop closer to the Mater). Luas BXD will connect green line to O'Connell street and Parnell square. Metro North is not needed.

The section between Griffith Avenue and the Airport are currently horribly underserved for the population density of the area (Ballymun, people living in and beside DCU, Santry Demesne/Northwood) and the amount of people going to/from there (DCU, offices in Northwood, IKEA, etc). MN will make an enormous difference to anyone with any business being in that sizable area of the city. Bus services there are an unintegrated train wreck, and have only gotten worse so far with network direct.

I agree with people who say that if we don't build the one now, the other hasn't a hope in hell of being built. For that reason I voted for MN (but I think the other one is absolutely essential too).

Transportuser09

If it had to come down to one or the other, I'd go with Metro North. It serves many areas devoid of rail services. It finally brings a rail link to Dublin Airport. Maybe not ideal, but in terms of connecting city centre rail termini the Luas already does this. The extension of the 145 means there is now a reasonably frequent bus from Heuston to the city centre. Apart from the city centre aspect, how many people want to commute daily from Howth/Malahide to Hazelhatch? I don't believe the electrification of the Maynooth line is essential once there's no DU, a relatively frequent service could be operated with DMU stock (new rolling stock is going to have to be ordered anyway if DU does go ahead). I'm not against DU in a different economic climate, but the way it stands I think MN is the more neccessary project.

DWCommuter

Transportuser09 wrote: »

If it had to come down to one or the other, I'd go with Metro North. It serves many areas devoid of rail services. It finally brings a rail link to Dublin Airport. Maybe not ideal, but in terms of connecting city centre rail termini the Luas already does this. The extension of the 145 means there is now a reasonably frequent bus from Heuston to the city centre. Apart from the city centre aspect, how many people want to commute daily from Howth/Malahide to Hazelhatch? I don't believe the electrification of the Maynooth line is essential once there's no DU, a relatively frequent service could be operated with DMU stock (new rolling stock is going to have to be ordered anyway if DU does go ahead). I'm not against DU in a different economic climate, but the way it stands I think MN is the more neccessary project.

Whatever the merits of DU or MN, thats a piss poor argument against DU.

how many people want to commute daily from Howth/Malahide to Hazelhatch?

Oh my god, that is one rediculous question. Are you trying to wind us up or do you really feel this way about DU?

Without DU the entire Dublin suburban rail network is operating in a half assed fashion so please offer up some decent argument against DU as opposed to MN, if you think MN is more important.

Transportuser09

DWCommuter wrote: »

Whatever the merits of DU or MN, thats a piss poor argument against DU.

That's because it's not an argument against DU. Your poll asks which we would choose if it was one or the other. I would choose MN for the reasons I stated in my earlier post. I've nothing against DU but if it comes down to one or the other I think MN is more neccessary.

DWCommuter wrote: »

Oh my god, that is one rediculous question. Are you trying to wind us up or do you really feel this way about DU?

Without DU the entire Dublin suburban rail network is operating in a half assed fashion so please offer up some decent argument against DU as opposed to MN, if you think MN is more important.

Again I'm not against DU. But what I'm saying is the cross-city travel aspect of DU is already catered for to an extent by existing tram and bus services. The areas served by MN doesn't have any light or heavy rail services. So I think MN is more neccessary. However if the money is there I've absolutely no qualms about doing both projects. DU has much to offer, but MN brings a rail link to an area which as never had any.

DWCommuter

Transportuser09 wrote: »

That's because it's not an argument against DU. Your poll asks which we would choose if it was one or the other. I would choose MN for the reasons I stated in my earlier post. I've nothing against DU but if it comes down to one or the other I think MN is more neccessary.

Considering you would choose MN ahead of DU (if it was an either/or choice) and you cited the reasons why, then it is an argument in favour of MN which one can readily assume is an argument against DU in the context of the poll.

Again I'm not against DU. But what I'm saying is the cross-city travel aspect of DU is already catered for to an extent by existing tram and bus services. The areas served by MN doesn't have any light or heavy rail services. So I think MN is more neccessary. However if the money is there I've absolutely no qualms about doing both projects. DU has much to offer, but MN brings a rail link to an area which as never had any.

I wouldn't say many people are against DU, but your reasons why you would choose MN ahead of it are weak. Public transport solutions are not dependent on laying new rail lines where none exist just for the sake of it. We have seen 100 million spent on the WRC based on that kind of thinking. Furthermore the sustainability of the existing rail network in the Dublin area is in serious trouble if DU isn't built. Its is wrong to judge the project merely as a link up and currently catered for by luas and bus. The introduction of DU will completely transform how the DART and commuter rail network functions.

DU is essential and should be prioritised. If PPP money is in short supply, then DU should get it first. Considering the DART project was started in the 70s, I think its about time we finished it, made it work effectively and then worried about MN. This bit of a luas system, bit of a DART system and bit of a Metro system mentality needs to stop. Finish one and then move on to the other and preferably finish the other one as well, instead of leaving us with a single metro route.

Of course personally I can't see any of it going ahead, but thats another story.

DWCommuter

Plowman wrote: »

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Take passengers on a mostly empty DART train and transfer them to a luas. The luas will look pretty full. Considering MN will be similar in rolling stock terms to the luas, then it would look pretty full as well. In saying that though, I can understand the appeal of an underground with frequent inner city stops and how it would attract volume.

Plowman

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DWCommuter

Plowman wrote: »

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It may be overstretched, but I compensated for it by saying that I can see how an inner city metro could generate volume. So yes potential volume is crucial. But I don't think anyone has ever questioned the potential volume for MN anyway.

I'd like to point out to you that DU is no less urban than MN. While the DU project does penetrate the suburbs, it has great penetration in the inner city as well. MN also has its fields and no mans land too.

As for luas turning a profit, if you are basing this against Irish Rail services, then please realise that there is a completely different method of accounting between the two. Veolia don't have to account for the infrastructure and light rail has cheaper costs anyway. While CIE and Irish Rail in particular are a woefully mismanaged, union ravaged, entity anyway, I always draw the line at what is fair. To hold the luas up as a successful profit making project against Irish Rail services, is not like with like.

tharlear

While CIE and Irish Rail in particular are a woefully mismanaged, union ravaged, entity anyway, I always draw the line at what is fair

While your agruments and logic in supporting DU over MN are mostly convincing from a transportation and network side, the best argument for metro north are your own words above.

You state DU will increase capacity of the system. By this I think you mean that DU with allow for increased capacity. Cie management and unions will never allow you to actualise those potential increases in capacity with out drawing their 1000KG of flesh .

Having stated the above I would still invest in DU over MN in the hope that one day CIE will be abolished. CIe cycling is easier

runway16

Plowman wrote: »

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Many Cities's urban transits are shockingly empty off peak. I've been in plenty of empty Tube carriages in my time...

Johnny Utah

I didn't vote as both projects are probably among the most important in the history of the State and should be prioritised accordingly.

runway16

Johnny Utah wrote: »

I didn't vote as both projects are probably among the most important in the history of the State and should be prioritised accordingly.

Exactly. If we get drwan into an either / or arguement, then we have lost it. There will only be an either / or choice because our government cannot grasp the nettle of real public sector and government reform. The progress of the country will again have been killed by the Public sector unions for the sake of the bloated managerial levels of the service.

Nurses and Guards will take pay cuts, we will not get our infrastructure, and the managerial levels will be safe on their big salaries with **** all to do. Some country.

Lets not get drawn into this debate, because that is exactly what the government want. - its all (MN and DU) or nothing.

DWCommuter

Pardon my absence from here over the last week, but this poll looks like a result.

DWCommuter

runway16 wrote: »

There will only be an either / or choice because our government cannot grasp the nettle of real public sector and government reform. The progress of the country will again have been killed by the Public sector unions for the sake of the bloated managerial levels of the service.

Its already happening.

Metrostar

DWCommuter wrote: »

Pardon my absence from here over the last week, but this poll looks like a result.

A flawed result, though, as the option of 'both' was not included. It would be the same as asking if the government should spend money on unemployment benefit or pensions.

DWCommuter

Metrostar wrote: »

A flawed result, though, as the option of 'both' was not included. It would be the same as asking if the government should spend money on unemployment benefit or pensions.

I refer you to the first post in this thread and your comparison above is not like with like.

DWCommuter

runway16 wrote: »

Lets not get drawn into this debate, because that is exactly what the government want. - its all (MN and DU) or nothing.

This is a debate that is vital if at least one of the projects is to go ahead. The Government don't want this debate at all. They are not conspiring to satisfy Irish society with maybe one of these projects. They don't care. MN is their vanity project since 2000 or thereabouts. DU is the project that was dragged to the table by lobbying and had zero Government/media interest until then. But this Government are in such a financial melting pot that they will happily (albeit justified by economic jargon) dump both projects.

Let me spell out the reality here.

Despite MN being a much acclaimed PPP, that all and sundry spout off about not costing the state anything until its built, the same state is facing a financial blackhole. We currently have enough money until the middle of 2011 at best. After that we go back to the bond markets, who are currently offering the unpleasant rate of approx 9%. This rate may drop if the forthcoming budget doles out the pain for real. But this budget is only part of a 4 year cutting spree. If it fails to convince the markets, then we go towards EU bailout country by next summer.

Just because 500 million of a loan towards this project was promised by the EU, does not make this country viable enough to deliver it. That loan was agreed amid a rapidly deteriorating financial landscape. This also affects the viability of DU as it also has a PPP aspect.

This country is at a stage where even a PPP 250 million per annum repayment commitment for both these projects would be under the microscope such is the dire state of the country's finances even in 5 to 7 years time. (and thats without the continued upfront costs involved) Just like this Government tries to talk its way into getting reasonably priced loans, they try to convince us that these projects will happen. In fact Noel Dempsey was quoted this year as saying that the rail line to Navan will go ahead! Bonkers and the bond markets know that so far this Government have been talking ****e and that is why the rate is creeping up.

Ultimately the first budget (of a 4 year plan) in a few weeks time will need to prove a point and even if it does, how much cutting in health, education etc. will go untolerated and without protest. All well and good talking about building these things when costs are lower, but this country is actually in a very very bad financial state, with no evidence to suggest that economic growth will return to a level that can sustain the PPP gamble at this moment in time.

Aard

Even if only 20 people move from getting the dole to earning an average wage as a result of the capex, their taxes and lack of dole pay back the government's annual outlay of €250m, with the added benefit of helping grow the economy.


EDIT: See http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68993301&postcount=46

Roryhy

Aard wrote: »

Even if only 20 people move from getting the dole to earning an average wage as a result of the capex, their taxes and lack of dole pay back the government's annual outlay of €250m, with the added benefit of helping grow the economy.

My maths skills may be rusty but how can 20 working people pay back €250,000,000?

Aard

Roryhy wrote: »

My maths skills may be rusty but how can 20 working people pay back €250,000,000?

Wow, do I feel stupid I am, of course, completely and utterly incorrect. I retract my statement entirely. (Gotta stop posting just after waking up!)

DWCommuter

Aard wrote: »

Wow, do I feel stupid I am, of course, completely and utterly incorrect. I retract my statement entirely. (Gotta stop posting just after waking up!)

Your forgiven.:D