Crossing a solid white line

LeoD

Hi there

Yesterday I received my 2 point penalty notification for crossing a solid white line about a month ago. I've been a bit annoyed by it since it happened as I'm not sure if I legally did anything wrong. I would like to hear other views on this as maybe the Guard was right and I was wrong.

According to the rules of the road on solid white lines: All traffic must keep to the left of the line (except in an emergency or for access).

The road (100km/h speed limit) was straight but humpy - hence the solid white line. I was travelling behind a fully loaded tipper truck (the large ones used for carrying stones/gravel). There were 3 or 4 cars behind me as the truck was driving relatively slowly. We came upon a tractor was stopped in the left lane. I don't know what the tractor driver was doing but he wasn't looking to go anywhere. Where we were stopped (on the crest of a hump), we could see the road ahead however oncoming traffic would have been blind to the road we had just travelled - hence the solid white line. When the oncoming lane was clear, the truck passed the stationary tractor. I followed the truck and the traffic behind followed me. The truck has now passed the tractor and is pulling back into the left lane but is still travelling at no more than 20kmh I would imagine as it's carrying a 15000kg load so it's acceleration from a standing start is quite slow. As I'm already in the right lane and can see nothing is coming, I drive past the truck and pull into the left lane again. The car behind me does the same. 100m up the road a Guard is waiting and pulls both of us in.

If I had been driving behind the truck in the left lane and passed him out then I'd say no problem Guard. If I was done for dangerous driving I would have said that was a bit harsh but I'm being done for crossing the solid white line. Now without getting too pedantic, didn't we all cross the white line to pass the tractor? Am I being done for passing another vehicle where there was a solid line? Anyone have a similar experience? I had until yesterday a clean licence so just curious about this issue.

Sorry about the long post?

Gophur

What you did was safe, but illegal. (Crossing a continuous line is prohibited, and a specified penalty point offence.)

Good policing would have resulted in a friendly warning from the Garda, unfortunately you met one who took things literally.

In this case, it's bitter medicine, but one you gotta take.

KamiKazi

You don't need to keep to the left of a continuous white line, you simply cannot cross it. I really wish people would stop quoting the rules of the road as law :rolleyes:

yop

Gophur wrote: »

What you did was safe, but illegal. (Crossing a continuous line is prohibited, and a specified penalty point offence.)

Good policing would have resulted in a friendly warning from the Garda, unfortunately you met one who took things literally.

In this case, it's bitter medicine, but one you gotta take.

As above its the law but you are talking about a police force who sit on motorways and wide straight roads speed trapping.

I experienced the other side of that though a few months back and the young Garda listened to me and didn't give me points.

You were unlucky in fairness.

Cianos

Gophur wrote: »

What you did was safe, but illegal. (Crossing a continuous line is prohibited, and a specified penalty point offence.)

Good policing would have resulted in a friendly warning from the Garda, unfortunately you met one who took things literally.

In this case, it's bitter medicine, but one you gotta take.

Is it illegal because he passed the tractor, or only because he passed the truck? If the latter, is it because it could only be deemed necessary to 'break' the law in the case of the tractor, but not in the case of the truck? Even if so, it's strange to call it under crossing the white line since he was already over the white line, albeit just for a bit longer.

Ush1

I presume there is a stipulation for crossing the white line when getting around a stationary object or vehicle. Perhaps the fact you overtook a moving vehicle(albeit very slow moving) that the garda felt was unnecassery.

I presume the idea of the solid white lines is just to stop people overtaking, not to not cross the white line at any cost.

Atomic Pineapple

Again this highlights the stupid rigidness of Ireland's road traffic laws, I have come across countless sections of roads where there is a solid white line yet it is perfectly safe to overtake moving vehicles.

Its ridiculous that the Garda felt the need to give you a fine and penalty points for overtaking a slow moving truck safely just because it breaches an unflexible rule.

galwaytt

Cianos wrote: »

Is it illegal because he passed the tractor, or only because he passed the truck? If the latter, is it because it could only be deemed necessary to 'break' the law in the case of the tractor, but not in the case of the truck? Even if so, it's strange to call it under crossing the white line since he was already over the white line, albeit just for a bit longer.

Ush1 wrote: »

I presume there is a stipulation for crossing the white line when getting around a stationary object or vehicle. Perhaps the fact you overtook a moving vehicle(albeit very slow moving) that the garda felt was unnecassery.

I presume the idea of the solid white lines is just to stop people overtaking, not to not cross the white line at any cost.

You are allowed to cross the line to overtake a stationary object (the tractor, in this case.) It's the overtaking of the truck that got the OP.......

An a related note, whilst doing the Bikesafe course with the GTC a short while ago, this did come up. Solid white line means no overtaking of traffic, even if you don't cross the line to do so. I was always under the impressioin (wrongly, as it turns out........), that you could overtake moving traffic, so long as you didn't cross the line. (This is easy to do on a 'bike, not a car btw !.)

Atomic Pineapple

galwaytt wrote: »

An a related note, whilst doing the Bikesafe course with the GTC a short while ago, this did come up. Solid white line means no overtaking of traffic, even if you don't cross the line to do so. I was always under the impressioin (wrongly, as it turns out........), that you could overtake moving traffic, so long as you didn't cross the line. (This is easy to do on a 'bike, not a car btw !.)

Well that has to be the stupidness rule I've ever heard, what benefit is it at all? And so that means that even if a moving vehicle pulls into the hard shoulder to let you by that if there is a solid white line you cant over take them!? That is simply ridiculous.

Ush1

draffodx wrote: »

Well that has to be the stupidness rule I've ever heard, what benefit is it at all? And so that means that even if a moving vehicle pulls into the hard shoulder to let you by that if there is a solid white line you cant over take them!? That is simply ridiculous.

If it pulls into the side and stops you can.;)

Alun

draffodx wrote: »

Again this highlights the stupid rigidness of Ireland's road traffic laws, I have come across countless sections of roads where there is a solid white line yet it is perfectly safe to overtake moving vehicles.

I agree, there appears to be a certain amount of laziness with regard to the placing of solid white lines, with an over eagerness to just carry on with them where a brief break could easily be put in on small straight sections.

Also, what really annoys me is the way single lines are extensively used here rather than double lines, resulting in the solid line extending too far for traffic that has just cleared the bend or bump. In the UK they use double lines, and have a part solid / broken line just before and after the hazard (bend or bump) meaning that as soon as you've cleared it you can start an overtake, but traffic approaching the hazard has to pull in before it. Here you can clear a hazard, be able to see a good distance ahead and see it's safe to overtake, but you then have to wait until the possibly quite short length of broken line starts to start your overtake. Makes no sense, but maybe they're just saving money on all that extra paint.

Idleater

galwaytt wrote: »

An a related note, whilst doing the Bikesafe course with the GTC a short while ago, this did come up. Solid white line means no overtaking of traffic, even if you don't cross the line to do so. I was always under the impressioin (wrongly, as it turns out........), that you could overtake moving traffic, so long as you didn't cross the line. (This is easy to do on a 'bike, not a car btw !.)

O_o Having asked the same thing when I did the bikesafe course and received the opposite answer (because I did do it -eg filtering and overtaking on a wide N road) I am now in a quandary.

KamiKazi

nereid wrote: »

O_o Having asked the same thing when I did the bikesafe course and received the opposite answer (because I did do it -eg filtering and overtaking on a wide N road) I am now in a quandary.

Yea I was also of the opinion that you could overtake on a solid white line as long as you don't cross it

Zubeneschamali

KamiKazi wrote: »

Yea I was also of the opinion that you could overtake on a solid white line as long as you don't cross it

I see nothing in the Road Traffic Acts or even the Rules of the Road about solid white lines, other than the fact that you must not cross them, except for access or emergencies.

If you get done for overtaking on a solid white lined section without crossing the line, I'd guess it would be under some catch-all like careless driving.

LeoD

Cianos wrote: »

Is it illegal because he passed the tractor, or only because he passed the truck? If the latter, is it because it could only be deemed necessary to 'break' the law in the case of the tractor, but not in the case of the truck? Even if so, it's strange to call it under crossing the white line since he was already over the white line, albeit just for a bit longer.

That's what I was wondering. I crossed the solid line to pass the tractor, as did everyone else.

galwaytt wrote: »

You are allowed to cross the line to overtake a stationary object (the tractor, in this case.)

Are you sure of that? According to the 'Rules of the Road' you can't.

galwaytt wrote: »

An a related note, whilst doing the Bikesafe course with the GTC a short while ago, this did come up. Solid white line means no overtaking of traffic, even if you don't cross the line to do so. I was always under the impressioin (wrongly, as it turns out........), that you could overtake moving traffic, so long as you didn't cross the line. (This is easy to do on a 'bike, not a car btw !.)

That sounds completely mental!

The thing that annoys me most is that I can't ask a judge what he thinks without the threat of doubling the points and increasing the fine. I'd have no problem going to court and if the judge agrees with the Guard then fair enough, give me the 2 points.

Zubeneschamali

5.—(1) These bye-laws shall apply save where compliance therewith is not possible by reason solely of road-works, building operations or an obstruction to traffic, or because of an emergency suddenly confronting a driver, pedal-cyclist or pedestrian which he could not reasonably have been expected to anticipate.

Ush1

It says "except in an emergency or for access". Overtaking a stationary vehicle would cover that I would imagine.

They would be better off saying just no overtaking rather than don't cross the line.

Eoin

galwaytt wrote: »

An a related note, whilst doing the Bikesafe course with the GTC a short while ago, this did come up. Solid white line means no overtaking of traffic, even if you don't cross the line to do so. I was always under the impressioin (wrongly, as it turns out........), that you could overtake moving traffic, so long as you didn't cross the line. (This is easy to do on a 'bike, not a car btw !.)

I did the motorbike theory test last year, and I'm nearly sure that the book said that you can overtake once you don't cross the white line. I'll see if I can dig out the page where it said that.

stimpson

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I see nothing in the Road Traffic Acts or even the Rules of the Road about solid white lines, other than the fact that you must not cross them, except for access or emergencies.

It's here:

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/good-driving-practice/overtaking.html

You must not overtake when

* A traffic sign or road marking prohibits it.

And here:

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/traffic-signs-road-markings/road-markings.html

Single or double continuous white lines along the centre of the road: All traffic must keep to the left of the line (except in an emergency or for access).

Zubeneschamali

stimpson wrote: »

It's here:

Eh, no it isn't. Those just say keep left, they don't say "don't overtake on a motorbike even if you can do so without crossing the line."

LeoD

stimpson wrote: »

It's here:
http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/good-driving-practice/overtaking.html

Don't want to stray off my terrible plight but a few km's before where this incident happened there is a broken white line down the middle of the road with a "Do not overtake" sign just next to it. Stick or twist...?

stimpson

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Eh, no it isn't. Those just say keep left, they don't say "don't overtake on a motorbike even if you can do so without crossing the line."

Sorry - I see what you mean. I would suppose it's legal and I'd appeal a ticket for it.

pippip

Really the tractor should have been booked as your not allowed to park opposite a continuous white line.

I wonder was there a clearway sign somewhere on that stretch of road?

_Kaiser_

All this back and forth highlights the REAL problem with driving in this country - namely the vague, open-to-interpretation and often contradictory language used by the relevant legislation and "rules" of the road, coupled with the equally widely varying response you get from those charged with the enforcement - the gardai.

On top of this then you have the ridiculous situation where you will face double the points if you "dare" to challenge the situation.

No wonder we can't do anything right in this country with this "ah sure it'll be grand"/depends who you get approach to everything!

Idleater

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

On top of this then you have the ridiculous situation where you will face double the points if you "dare" to challenge the situation.

Without appearing to be pedantic, you actually get 4 points (for example) standard, but this is reduced to 2 if you do not "dare" to challenge it.

The difference is slight and subtle but it makes your point incorrect.

It's a "discount" for want of a better word so that the courts are not clogged up with everyone contesting everything all the time - the exact thing that the points system was designed to reduce.

However, saying all that, most of the reports that I have word about anyone actually contesting points in court result in the judge just siding with the Garda in question regardless.

Del2005

galwaytt wrote: »

An a related note, whilst doing the Bikesafe course with the GTC a short while ago, this did come up. Solid white line means no overtaking of traffic, even if you don't cross the line to do so. I was always under the impressioin (wrongly, as it turns out........), that you could overtake moving traffic, so long as you didn't cross the line. (This is easy to do on a 'bike, not a car btw !.)

I did some training with Dave Lyons a few months back and he mentioned passing on solid white lines. He said it was OK to do so, mentioned something about new legislation. Didn't really think about it till after the training to ask what he meant.

galwaytt

hey, never say I don't 'apply' myself to a task.

Here is The Gospel. Allegedly.

Article 10 of The Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations provides the rules for overtaking as follows;-

(1) A driver should not overtake, or attempt to overtake, if to do so would endanger or cause inconvenience to any other person.

(2) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, unless the roadway ahead of the driver is
(a) free from approaching traffic, pedestrians and any other obstruction
(b) sufficiently long and wide to permit the overtaking to be completed without danger or inconvenience to other traffic or pedestrians

(3) A driver shall not overtake or attempt to overtake, on a stretch of roadway on which traffic sign number RUS 014 (no overtaking) has been provided

(4) Subject to the provisions of sub article (5) a driver shall overtake on the right and shall not move in towards the left until it is safe to do so

(5) A driver may only overtake on the left -

(a) Where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled an intention to turn right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends after overtaking, to go straight ahead or turn left

(b) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to turn left at the next road junction and has signalled his intention

(c) in slow moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

The rules above must be adhered to when overtaking as must the rule prohibiting the crossing of unbroken white lines.

So basically if you abide by the overtkaing rules and don't cross the white line then yes you may overtake.

This is what the Powers That Be gave me, today. If in doubt, print it out.

Idleater

thanks for the update!

Danbo!

Sounds fairly unlucky op, yeah it was against the law but sounds like the Garda could have used a little discretion. As a matter of interest how did he witness it?

Did anyone see that episode of traffic blues when it was on a few months back, some knob overtook on a solid line at speed on a blind corner in pissy weather and they pulled him in. The bangarda asked was there any reason why he did it and yer man says "im not familiar with the area". Garda response "grand so, take it easy in future". What a joke.

jambofc

same boat here,overtook a tractor on the trim-dublin road on a solid white line(as did another 6 cars)tractor was doing roughly 20kmh we where all behind him for approx 3 miles,we all got done for it,received a fine and 2 penalty points,now my argument is why was the tractor driver not done as at no stage did he pull over to let everyone past,i thought this was the law,slow moving vehicle's are supposed to move over or pull in to let the traffic behind past??
any way payed fine and received point's but fuming about it,guard's attitude was all wrong and as we sink into deeper economic turmoil i can only see things becoming worse.

Zubeneschamali

jambofc wrote: »

any way payed fine and received point's but fuming about it,guard's attitude was all wrong and as we sink into deeper economic turmoil i can only see things becoming worse.

Yup, first it's guards enforcing the law, then human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!

robbie99

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

5.—(1) These bye-laws shall apply save where compliance therewith is not possible by reason solely of road-works, building operations or an obstruction to traffic, or because of an emergency suddenly confronting a driver, pedal-cyclist or pedestrian which he could not reasonably have been expected to anticipate.

I remember a past post by NGA saying that judges have ruled that a slow moving tractor can be considered to be an obstruction to traffic and have dismissed cases because of this. If the truck was going slow enough then there's every chance the judge will side with the OP.

jambofc

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yup, first it's guards enforcing the law, then human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!

what im talking about is a bit of humanity in a situation not just law is law end of,things like overtaking a tractor on a white line sort of thing.....

cyclopath2001

jambofc wrote: »

,i thought this was the law,slow moving vehicle's are supposed to move over or pull in to let the traffic behind past??

Nope, there is no such law. It always surprises me how many people think there is one. The RoTR suggests doing so, but it's not a law. Stopping beside a continuous white line would be illegal, so he just has to keep moving.

jambofc

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Nope, there is no such law. It always surprises me how many people think there is one. The RoTR suggests doing so, but it's not a law. Stopping beside a continuous white line would be illegal, so he just has to keep moving.

who said for him to stop,all he need of done is move over in the wider part of the road and we would all have got past without a problem.

a slow moving vehicle in any other country ive ever driven in are courteous and will always move over or pull over to let you past at the first opportunity,not so in this country a lot actually seem to try and stop you from overtaking them.

did i not read somewhere about a farmer being fined for not pulling over and causing an obstruction to traffic?

cyclopath2001

jambofc wrote: »

who said for him to stop,all he need of done is move over in the wider part of the road and we would all have got past without a problem.

The rule is to drive on the left of the roadway. If there was a continuous white line, I assume that there was just one lane, so I don't see how a tractor could pull in to the left to make room for you without without going off the road. Tractors are usually as wide as a driving lane.

jambofc wrote: »

did i not read somewhere about a farmer being fined for not pulling over and causing an obstruction to traffic?

The circumstances were very specific and it was a judge who decided that the driving was inconsiderate. If you want to apply a general rule about obstruction, you could end up with banning cars from on-street parking, especially in cycle lanes.

jambofc

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The rule is to drive on the left of the roadway. If there was a continuous white line, I assume that there was just one lane, so I don't see how a tractor could pull in to the left to make room for you without without going off the road. Tractors are usually as wide as a driving lane.

The circumstances were very specific and it was a judge who decided that the driving was inconsiderate. If you want to apply a general rule about obstruction, you could end up with banning cars from on-street parking, especially in cycle lanes.

there are plenty of parts on the road where he could quite easily have moved over/pulled over,he was adamant that nobody was getting past him stuck out on the white line,im in Meath and this is a big problem with tractors crawling along at ridiculously slow speeds and refusing to move over/pull over,i have often been on the road to Dublin and been stuck behind 20/30 vehicle's all crawling at 20 behind a tractor that refuses to move.annoying to say the least.

if you are driving a slow moving vehicle and traffic has built up behind you is it not inconsiderate to move over/pull over at the first opportunity?

dont really get the part about parking in cycle lanes