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An Bord Pleanála gives Metro North go ahead

  • 28-10-2010 12:01pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,754 ✭✭✭ Van.Bosch


    ThanksI also see that they can only commence enabling works and cannot go past that point until the amended order is submitted for the new depot etc. I assume this can be done by the time enabling works/utility diversions are completed. I thought I read this would take 2 years.All they need now is the government to approve the spending...
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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    The multi-billion-euro Metro North project in Dublin has been given the green light by An Bord Pleanála.

    Metro North - Two stops have been eliminated


    The multi-billion-euro Metro North project in Dublin has been given the green light by An Bord Pleanála.
    The rail link from St Stephen's Green to Swords now faces final approval from the Government on a cost benefit analysis.
    The infrastructure project is described as the biggest in the history of the State and the ruling from An Bord Pleanála runs to 1,700 pages.
    The board has given permission for an underground track from St Stephen's Green to north of Ballymun where it will cross the M50 on a flyover.
    It will go underground at Dublin Airport stopping at a centralised transport hub before going overground again to Swords with some of the line on stilts due to the undulating landscape.
    The board has eliminated two stops at Belinstown and Seatown and ordered the relocation of a depot and park-and-ride facility.
    It wants the park-and-ride facility and depot moved from Belinstown, which is north of Swords, because of the risk of flooding.
    The overall 18km line has therefore been shortened by 2.3km.
    The final plan for the underground section at Ballymun and the stop at O'Connell Street also need to be finalised.
    But it is the proposed 'big dig' in the city centre, involving moving statues like the O'Connell monument and closing off part of St Stephen's Green, that is causing concern to some businesses.
    Enabling works on underground utility lines is due to start next spring, while the construction itself is scheduled to last from 2012 to 2016.
    The overall estimated cost has varied from €5bn at the height of the boom to €3bn now with reduced construction costs.
    Supporters point out that because it will be a public-private partnership the initial cost will be taken by the private operator. The Rail Procurement Agency will have to make a final decision between two consortiums - Celtic Metro Group and Metro Express - in coming months.
    A number of economic studies have been carried out by the RPA with the latest showing that for every €1 spent on the Metro there will be €2 back in terms of overall economic benefit.
    Labour leader Eamon Gilmore has said the Metro North project should be postponed while Transport Minister Noel Dempsey has said it will go ahead subject to a final cost analysis.
    The RPA says the line will be able to carry 20,000 passengers an hour with 10km underground providing a journey time of 20 minutes from Dublin Airport to the city centre.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1028/metro.html


    A other step a long the long and winding roads to MN .


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭ Bluetonic


    Van.Bosch wrote: »
    but was the park and ride not meant to be at lissenhal? I thought this was one of the key aspects of the plan?

    From RTE.ie
    The board has eliminated two stops in the Swords area - at Belinstown and Seatown - and has ordered the relocation of a depot and park and ride facility.

    The board wants the park and ride facility and depot moved from Belinstown, is north of Swords, because of the risk of flooding. It wants the park and ride moved to near the Malahide estuary and the depot to Dardistown near Dublin airport.

    So the P&R will just be relocated in the general area of Hertz where there is lots of space available, or the Swords Business Campus area.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 355 ✭✭ GizAGoOfYerGee


    Great news, but only half the battle. :(

    Another article from the Irish Times
    ÉANNA Ó CAOLLAÍ

    An Bord Pleanála has approved plans to build a light rail system from Dublin's city centre to Swords.

    The scheme is approved from the Estuary stop in Swords to St Stephen’s Green. However, significant conditions have been attached. The depot, stop and strategic park and ride facility at Belinstown and the stop at Lissenhall will not be developed.

    An Bord Peanála said it considered a depot and headquarters at Lissenhall "would not perform well in strategic transport terms compared with other alternatives available in the vicinity of the airport". It said the fact it would be at the end of the line meant it was "more likely to result in inefficient empty running of metro vehicles and extended travel for staff".

    It said Belinstown is at a "considerable distance" from Dublin airport or Swords and "would not represent the optimal location for long term efficient economic and environmentally sustainable operation of the rail service".

    Permission to build a stop at Seatown was refused as the stops serving Swords "provide an adequate level of service to the town without compromising the service levels of Metro North or future development of the town".

    In the interests of visual amenity and public safety, the Drumcondra stop has to be agreed in writing with the Planning Authority before starting the development of this element of the scheme. Some elements of the stop at Swords and O'Connell St are to be reviewed "in the interests of pedestrian safety and free-flow".

    The detailed designs of each stop within the administrative area of Fingal County Council are to be submitted to that planning authority for written agreement.

    Several city businesses have called on the Government to cancel the project or postpone it until the economy recovers.

    Businessman Colm Carroll, who owns nine gift shops in the city centre, has recently launched No To Metro North, a campaign to stop the project that he said would “rip the whole city apart”, costing thousands of jobs and closing firms.

    Did they really need to include this? :rolleyes: There is only one Irish person that cares about Colm fecking Carrol and his plastic leprechaun franchise, and that is Colm Carrol.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,295 ✭✭✭✭ Mint Sauce


    I thought An Bord Pleanála all ready gave the go ahead.

    :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭ Amtmann


    The route has been shortened by 2.3km according to that RTE report. This will further reduce construction costs.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 355 ✭✭ GizAGoOfYerGee


    irish-stew wrote: »
    I thought An Bord Pleanála all ready gave the go ahead.

    :confused:

    Nope. We were expecting an announcement in June, July and then August, and then APB wanted another 3 months :rolleyes:

    Anyway, it's approved now. Now we have to wait another few months for the government to either go ahead with it or defer it. If they defer it, we can forget about any Metro North until 2020.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    Where the **** are the Park and Rides going if Lissenhall and Belinstown are both scrappaged ???? :eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 355 ✭✭ GizAGoOfYerGee


    RPA response
    This order provides sufficient clarity for RPA to now proceed to the final stage of the PPP procurement process. This is due to be complete by the end of 2011, by which time we would expect the conditions attached to the order to be satisfied.

    In the meantime, the order also permits RPA to proceed with the enabling works as planned. These works, involving diversion of utilities in the city centre and heritage works are due to commence in March 2011.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭ dynamick


    What happens now? Will the RPA have to reapply to the board for permission for things like the relocated depot and p&r? Can the bidders make their final offers before they know the exact spec of what is permitted by Bord Pleanala?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 355 ✭✭ GizAGoOfYerGee


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Where the **** are the Park and Rides going if Lissenhall and Belinstown are both scrappaged ???? :eek:

    Plenty of room either side of and north of Estuary. Perhaps the stop with be shifted north.

    5hLq0.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭ dowlingm


    Jeez, I guess ABP missed the memo from the government that they should deny and then give dept of finance clean hands on the deferral :D

    As for the shortening of the line - those 2.3km would probably have been the cheapest on a per-km basis. The cost per km just went up, something that will doubtless be seized upon by some parties.


  • Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭ noelfirl


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Jeez, I guess ABP missed the memo from the government that they should deny and then give dept of finance clean hands on the deferral :D

    Well let's get the new conspiracy theory out of the way then:
    The government via their swarthy subservient Darth Dempsey encouraged ABP to grant a railway order (for publicity and feel good purposes) whilst ensuring additional conditions that would delay the start in the main construction. An election unsuprisingly gets called in Jan/Feb 2012 thus eliminating the need for FF to commit to the start date, and laying the cancellation order at the feet of the incoming FG/Lab government.

    Now that that's done with, I don't honestly think it will be started due to the above scenario, either deliberately or due to time just running out. Neither of the incoming parties will commit and it'll be off the table forever. The winner of the two consortiums will kick up a stink and a PPP of this size and nature will never happen again with Ireland having a good reputation of being foosterin incompetent eejits in this regard. DART underground will probably be taken down aswell. No commitment to taking roadspace for BRT, or bus priority junctions, but more buses anyway. City descends into another quagmire of inefficient public transport until the next moderate growth phase in 10-15 years, signalling a return to the reports of crippling traffic gridlock on Dublin's main arteries. New strategy - Transport 52.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    The government via their swarthy subservient Darth Dempsey encouraged ABP to grant a railway order (for publicity and feel good purposes) whilst ensuring additional conditions that would delay the start in the main construction.

    Main construction cant start until the enabiling works are completed so any conditions that the government did or did not instruct ABP to attach will not delay the project at all. Some people will come up with a conspiracy theory from anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭ senordingdong


    And is it still going over all that land owned by the corrupt developers?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    And is it still going over all that land owned by the corrupt developers?

    No, it was never going near Carrickmines.


  • Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭ noelfirl


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Main construction cant start until the enabiling works are completed so any conditions that the government did or did not instruct ABP to attach will not delay the project at all. Some people will come up with a conspiracy theory from anything.

    Not my theory, I could just see someone on here coming up with it. Anyway, I was posting under the wrong opinion, I misremembered an article recently that the main construction would begin in early 2012 (thus that the "end 2011" revisions would infringe on that timetable) rather then in mid-2012 when it is actually supposed to be. In light of that, I am wrong and the ABP specifications havn't at first glance put any delay on main construction. I still have my doubts seeing the main construction start date near to the last possible date for an election.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    irish-stew wrote: »
    I thought An Bord Pleanála all ready gave the go ahead.

    :confused:

    There was some misleading newspaper headlines and intros about the RPA saying when it could start work on the project which only stated that approval was still pending later in the articles. And some radio reports missed this small print at the time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 DWCommuter


    And is it still going over all that land owned by the corrupt developers?

    Yes.

    http://www.tribune.ie/article/2009/mar/01/bailey-brothers-sitting-on-a-pot-of-metro-gold-in-/


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    What does everyone on here make of the requirement for a new CBA given that the original return on investment radio of 2:1 has been bandied as a stick to beat down any dissenting opinion on the case for MN?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭ senordingdong


    So will it still go through the land owned by those dodgy developers?

    Why does the bord not think the other stops and depot are not needed?


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    DWCommuter wrote: »

    Err... Lissenhall and Belinstown have been cut by ABP as one of the conditions. There's no permission for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭ senordingdong


    monument wrote: »
    Err... Lissenhall and Belinstown have been cut by ABP as one of the conditions. There's no permission for it.

    I wonder if that's a good sign.

    Doubht it's for the reasons we would hope though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 DWCommuter


    monument wrote: »
    Err... Lissenhall and Belinstown have been cut by ABP as one of the conditions. There's no permission for it.

    They still have land near Airside retail park along the alignment.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    They still have land near Airside retail park along the alignment.

    Missed that as it was so far down the article.

    I think the difference there is that the route near Airside and the Pavillion was a given as makes sense given the shopping and employment around there. But north of Swords there was the question as why the line was turning away from Donabate and towards open fields. Opening that area towards the previously proposed park and ride to development would have been a bit crazy and ABP may not have been been able to do that much to stop development up there in the mid to long run.


  • Registered Users Posts: 581 Transportuser09


    So will it still go through the land owned by those dodgy developers?

    Why does the bord not think the other stops and depot are not needed?

    I think the depot is being relocated as opposed to not being built at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    Good to see the unnecessary part of the scheme being cut away, with the bits that make sense being maintained. There is no way ANY major development should be allowed anywhere near where those proposed outer stops were for at least another 10-20 years.

    Now what's required is a convincing and more importantly transparent business case so that those of us who would lend our support to the project - if we were given all the facts, can actually get behind it.

    More importantly, if this is to go ahead, the government should commit to it in THIS budget. If they hold it off, we'll know for almost certain they're not serious. They have the majority of the planning permission, the enabling works are allegedly starting early next spring, we're told the PPP procurement is making good progress AND the government is preparing an overall four-year budget submission. In short, we should know by the end of the year if they're serious about this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭ dynamick


    Only 75m needs to be allocated in the December budget for enabling works for Metro North for next year. In July, capital expenditure for 2011 was estimated at 5,500m by the DoF. So there is no question of the Metro allocation being cut in the budget. The capital repayments only start in 2018 or whenever the Metro is operational. At that stage the amounts will be approx 150m per year which is affordable no matter what size of capital budget we have.


  • Registered Users Posts: 760 ✭✭✭ dRNk SAnTA


    I really don't understand some peoples hostility to this line, it seems to tick a lot of boxes for me. The line will last over 100 years, this is the type of spending that the government should be borrowing for. Now that it has planning permission, it's something that can begin relatively quickly and help create some employment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭ noelfirl


    Hmmm...
    Fine Gael Transport Spokesman Simon Coveney welcomed the approval, but warned of a huge ‘information deficit’ about its business plan.

    “For some time Fine Gael has been in favour, in principle, of the Metro North project. It makes sense to dramatically upgrade public transport infrastructure on the northside of the city.


    “We look forward to the Railway Procurement Agency publishing the revised business case so that the public can see the full costs, and benefits, associated with this project. At such a critical time for the economy, it is essential that taxpayers know exactly how much major projects will cost, and what they will gain from them."

    http://www.build.ie/national_news.asp?newsid=118494

    I thought FG were for the kicking it into the long grass/redirecting funds to the Knock branch.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭ Cool Mo D


    Well, better late then never. Now, let's see if it's built.


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