People of science and intelligent design.

Terry

Yeah, another religious thread. Untwist your knickers.

I'm copying this from a post I just made in the LTI forum as I feel it's more suited to here.

This is what happened when I attended my first diabetic day clinic today:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68716514

No, I'm scared because my doctor has a firm belief in intelligent design.
How do I know this?
She asked if she could ask me a personal question during my physial exam. No problem, says I.

"Are you Catholic?", she asked.
I told her that I'm not, but that I was raised as Catholic.

What followed was 20 minutes of fairly deep discussion on how the Universe was created, God's part or lack thereof, morality and the Human condition.

I quite enjoy this kind of discussion. It's rare that I partake in it as it's usually with my friends, and they're not really interested, so it ends up being one sided with them agreeing with my arguments in order to shut me up.

Heh. Just flicking around and there's a documentary on something similar on RTÉ2 now (mostly Darwin).

Anyway, it was all going well until she tried to equate rape and murder to someone stealing food in order to stay alive on the grounds that we are a selfish species. Her point was that everything we do is for our own benefit, therefore a person gaining sexual gratification through rape is no different to someone stealing a loaf of bread to sate their hunger.

I argued that they are completely different actions, and have nothing at all in common, but she countered this by asking me where I got my morals from. I said that I got them when I was growing up, and she retorted by saying that this was because of my Catholic upbringing.

Now she was an extremely intelligent person (although when I brought up Altruism later she didn't seem to know what it meant, but I'll put this down to English not being her first language) and put forward a valid argument, but the only thing that will cause me to believe in any higher power is visible, audio and tactile proof which has no been brought about by hallucinogenic substances (which was another argument I put forth for people seeing God and the like).

So what say you, good people of AH (and the feckers too. I don't want to discriminate). Do you find that people of science who believe in intelligent design have conflicting interests?


Also, that thing on RTÉ (which is over now) mentioned that it was an Irish bishop who decided that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
I googled it and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ussher

On behalf of the nation of Ireland I would like to apologise to all sane citizens of the U.S.A. (and that includes all religious moderates) for giving you creationism.
I'd like to, but I'm not going to.
Dude was an Anglo-Irish CoI protestant, so I'm blaming the English on this one.

admiralofthefleet

lol wut?, tits or gtfo, tl;dr, o rly?, etc....

dr.bollocko

I presume it's of interest to people who enjoy walking around with fingers in their ears saying "lalalalalalalalala" all ****ing day. Others, however, seek genuine answers.

JohnathanM

Terry wrote: »

Do you find that people of science who believe in intelligent design have conflicting interests?

Fairly clearly. You don't get to pick and choose the facts, and you only debase yourself and your own area when you chose to mark another as conveniently irrelevant.

squod

You shoulda threw one into her..........

PanchoVilla

I think a medical professional asking patients about their religious beliefs is more worrying than what they believe. A Protestant doctor asking if you're a Catholic? I'd tell him/her to fúck off and mind their own business, then I'd walk out of the office and report them to the relevant authorities.

Sir Gallagher

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I think a medical professional asking patients about their religious beliefs is more worrying than what they believe. A Protestant doctor asking if you're a Catholic? I'd tell him/her to fúck off and mind their own business, then I'd walk out of the office and report them to the relevant authorities.

Maybe the doctor just wants to know whether or not to give you an orange lollipop.

My name is URL

If they truly believe the whole young Earth thing as well as creationism and at the same time are involved in any scientific field then it's worrying, imho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrW8v3fuxAE

If they just believe in a broad sense that all life started from a single point of creation then it probably wouldn't impede too much on how they perform professionally

mardybumbum

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I think a medical professional asking patients about their religious beliefs is more worrying than what they believe.

But if they are an ashkenazi jew they are more likely to develop a whole range of weird and wonderful diseases. Or so the pathology books tell us.

strobe

Well I always found this a complex and interesting conflict which has it's routes in many neurological and societ.............*rechecks forum name*.......

You should have taken a sh1t on her desk. Asked her how she squared that with the influence of your Catholic upbringing.

mfceiling

Terry wrote: »

Yeah, another religious thread. Untwist your knickers.

I'm copying this from a post I just made in the LTI forum as I feel it's more suited to here.

This is what happened when I attended my first diabetic day clinic today:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68716514


Now she was an extremely intelligent person (although when I brought up Altruism later she didn't seem to know what it meant, but I'll put this down to English not being her first language) and put forward a valid argument, but the only thing that will cause me to believe in any higher power is visible, audio and tactile proof which has no been brought about by hallucinogenic substances (which was another argument I put forth for people seeing God and the like).

So what say you, good people of AH (and the feckers too. I don't want to discriminate). Do you find that people of science who believe in intelligent design have conflicting interests?


Also, that thing on RTÉ (which is over now) mentioned that it was an Irish bishop who decided that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
I googled it and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ussher

On behalf of the nation of Ireland I would like to apologise to all sane citizens of the U.S.A. (and that includes all religious moderates) for giving you creationism.
I'd like to, but I'm not going to.
Dude was an Anglo-Irish CoI protestant, so I'm blaming the English on this one.

Pretty intensive stuff to be discussing with your doctor terry...............however in keeping with AH........is she a ride?

Terry

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I think a medical professional asking patients about their religious beliefs is more worrying than what they believe. A Protestant doctor asking if you're a Catholic? I'd tell him/her to fúck off and mind their own business, then I'd walk out of the office and report them to the relevant authorities.

If you read the post, you'll see that I don't have a problem with talking about religion and that I never mentioned the religion of the doctor. The link was just something I saw on the telly and is not really relevant, but I thought I'd throw it in here because it didn't fit anywhere else.

She wished to discuss religion during my physical examination, so I indulged her. I just got a bit freaked out at the equating of rape to stealing to feed yourself.

To the person who said I should have thrown her a length or whatever, I would have preferred to do the chick in front of my in the waiting room. There I was thinking that diabetes is for fat people. I couldn't have been more wrong.

MrStuffins

It's funny because a close friend of mine is a doctor but a young earth Christian.

I've never even bothered to ask her questions because........ where would i start?

fontanalis

Terry wrote: »

Yeah, another religious thread. Untwist your knickers.

I'm copying this from a post I just made in the LTI forum as I feel it's more suited to here.

This is what happened when I attended my first diabetic day clinic today:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68716514


Now she was an extremely intelligent person (although when I brought up Altruism later she didn't seem to know what it meant, but I'll put this down to English not being her first language) and put forward a valid argument, but the only thing that will cause me to believe in any higher power is visible, audio and tactile proof which has no been brought about by hallucinogenic substances (which was another argument I put forth for people seeing God and the like).

So what say you, good people of AH (and the feckers too. I don't want to discriminate). Do you find that people of science who believe in intelligent design have conflicting interests?


Also, that thing on RTÉ (which is over now) mentioned that it was an Irish bishop who decided that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
I googled it and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ussher

On behalf of the nation of Ireland I would like to apologise to all sane citizens of the U.S.A. (and that includes all religious moderates) for giving you creationism.
I'd like to, but I'm not going to.
Dude was an Anglo-Irish CoI protestant, so I'm blaming the English on this one.

Another to apologise for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
What gets me about ID is doesn't it remove original sin from christianity?

Ghost Estate

I am a little teapot

fontanalis

Terry wrote: »

If you read the post, you'll see that I don't have a problem with talking about religion and that I never mentioned the religion of the doctor. The link was just something I saw on the telly and is not really relevant, but I thought I'd throw it in here because it didn't fit anywhere else.

She wished to discuss religion during my physical examination, so I indulged her. I just got a bit freaked out at the equating of rape to stealing to feed yourself.

To the person who said I should have thrown her a length or whatever, I would have preferred to do the chick in front of my in the waiting room. There I was thinking that diabetes is for fat people. I couldn't have been more wrong.

You should have asked her would she rather be raped or have her sliced pan stolen?

Chorizo

There are some good arguement for intelligent design. They just messed it up by saying there must be a creator. It was a movement against Darwin that the church jumped on.

Terry

My name is URL wrote: »

If they truly believe the whole young Earth thing as well as creationism and at the same time are involved in any scientific field then it's worrying, imho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrW8v3fuxAE

If they just believe in a broad sense that all life started from a single point of creation then it probably wouldn't impede too much on how they perform professionally

Nah She wasn't a creationist. She's not so deluded as to believe the writings of the bishop I linked to above.
She acknowledged the creation of the universe happened billions of years ago and that we were not the first beings on this planet.

I just realied that I forgot my standard reply when she asked why I believe we are here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV9yUvNp6z0

Des Carter

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I think a medical professional asking patients about their religious beliefs is more worrying than what they believe. A Protestant doctor asking if you're a Catholic? I'd tell him/her to fúck off and mind their own business, then I'd walk out of the office and report them to the relevant authorities.

No some doctors need to know if their patients are Jahova witnessess incase there is trouble with blood transfusions which ma lead to a law suit.

strobe

Chorizo wrote: »

There are some good arguement for intelligent design. They just messed it up by saying there must be a creator. It was a movement against Darwin that the church jumped on.

I think I'm going to regret asking this but.....

How can you have intelligent design but no creator?

fontanalis

Chorizo wrote: »

There are some good arguement for intelligent design. They just messed it up by saying there must be a creator. It was a movement against Darwin that the church jumped on.

What most arguements sound like is "ooh it's complicated, god must have made it". Then when you delve deeper it's more of a "but there must be a more powerful force (or somethig like that) out there".
But there's a hell of a difference between some all powerful force who kick started a universe that we can't comprehend the size off and some god who focused on one group of people in the middle east in the bronze age who doesn't like when you worship other gods, work on sunday or eat shellfish.

Chorizo

strobe wrote: »

I think I'm going to regret asking this but.....

How can you have intelligent design but no creator?

Haha i know. Ok i worded it wrong. There are some reasonable points to intelligent design that do not have to have a need for a creator.

Interesting documentary showing both sides to the arguement.

http://www.documentarywire.com/a-war-on-science/

Also before anyone jumps on my back. I do not believe in intelligent design or god.

philologos

OP: Do you mean that your doctor believes that the Universe was created by God, or do you mean that your doctor believes that said universe is 6,000 years old.

If it is the former, I don't see anything remarkable or even crazy about that. It's perfectly reasonable to investigate as to what was the first cause behind all existence.

Sanjuro

If an intelligent designer designed human kind, he/she/it needs to go back to the drawing board. We're more like the kind of drawings a mental patient makes with his own shit.

squod

So what do all the Satanists Darwinists think of the meteorite/DNA story?

KINGVictor

Terry wrote: »

Yeah, another religious thread. Untwist your knickers.

I'm copying this from a post I just made in the LTI forum as I feel it's more suited to here.

This is what happened when I attended my first diabetic day clinic today:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68716514


Now she was an extremely intelligent person (although when I brought up Altruism later she didn't seem to know what it meant, but I'll put this down to English not being her first language) and put forward a valid argument, but the only thing that will cause me to believe in any higher power is visible, audio and tactile proof which has no been brought about by hallucinogenic substances (which was another argument I put forth for people seeing God and the like).

So what say you, good people of AH (and the feckers too. I don't want to discriminate). Do you find that people of science who believe in intelligent design have conflicting interests?


Also, that thing on RTÉ (which is over now) mentioned that it was an Irish bishop who decided that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
I googled it and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ussher

On behalf of the nation of Ireland I would like to apologise to all sane citizens of the U.S.A. (and that includes all religious moderates) for giving you creationism.
I'd like to, but I'm not going to.
Dude was an Anglo-Irish CoI protestant, so I'm blaming the English on this one.

Quite interesting read!...

My position on issues like this live and let live. I have come across well qualified academics and researchers that believe in both schools of thought . I ask myself sometimes why a scientist that has been trained to make conclusions based on empirical evidence that has substantiated by a rigourous, investigative and exploratory process will concur that the world was made 6000 years ago by what religion refers to as GOD, this belief is usually based on faith.

On the other hand, I have met very knowledgable scientists that opine that God is as real as santa because based on scientific/ physical findings anything that has no actual proof of existence is false ( a priori).

Different perceptions and they all entitiled to them, I will usually be very wary of Doctors "indoctrinating" patients but if you are ok with it , then no hassle...I think...

Terry

fontanalis wrote: »

Another to apologise for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
What gets me about ID is doesn't it remove original sin from christianity?

Judging by the discussion, I don't think the doctor believed in original sin.
I didn't ask her what religion she was herself. I just guessed that it was a Christian denomination by the conversation. They're all the same to me really.

Isn't original sin just a Catholic thing, or do other Christians believe that too?

She didn't mention original sin, so that wasn't covered.

Ghost Estate wrote: »

I am a little teapot

I'd ask that you take your sexual fantasies to the sex & sexuality forum.
Thanks.

fontanalis wrote: »

What most arguements sound like is "ooh it's complicated, god must have made it". Then when you delve deeper it's more of a "but there must be a more powerful force (or somethig like that) out there".
But there's a hell of a difference between some all powerful force who kick started a universe that we can't comprehend the size off and some god who focused on one group of people in the middle east in the bronze age who doesn't like when you worship other gods, work on sunday or eat shellfish.

At our current level of scientific and technological awareness, I can't see us ever having a definitive answer. The LHC may provide some answers, but I don't think it will give us everything we want.

The shellfish thing; well I have a theory that this and Pork are related to the improper cooking of these foods.
People didn't know about bacteria 5,000 years ago. They knew that food would go bad after a certain amount of time, but they didn't know the exact reason for it.

You get a lot of people dying from eating bad pork and shellfish, so they are deemed to be dodgy foods. As with thunder, floods and other unexplainable stuff at the time, it's all put down to God(s) being angry.
The rest is self explanitory.

Jakkass wrote: »

OP: Do you mean that your doctor believes that the Universe was created by God, or do you mean that your doctor believes that said universe is 6,000 years old.

If it is the former, I don't see anything remarkable or even crazy about that. It's perfectly reasonable to investigate as to what was the first cause behind all existence.

Were she a creationist, I would have reported her to whoever investigates the sanity of doctors.

As you said, questioning the beginning of the Universe is not insane. It's quite reasonable.

I'm quite comfortble with someone who believes in intelligent design. I'm not comfortable with someone who believes that rape and stealing in order to feed oneself are equally wrong from a religious and moral standpoint.

While my morals have roots in Christian teachings, I know that there is a massive difference in raping a woman to satisfy my sexual appetite and stealing a loaf of bread to quell my hunger.

From a personal standpoint, I do believe that a man named Jesus existed 2,000 years ago. I believe that he was a wise man and that he was quite the pragmatist. That's really where it ends though.

I do not believe most of the stuff written in his name. I do not believe that he was the progeny of an all powerful being.
He was just a man who saw things as they are.

I have a really big problem with certain interpretations of his teachings. I do not like that people have been murdered in his name.

The one thing I really respect about Jesus is the following quote which has been attributed to him: Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

If there was ever a credo to live by, then that's it.

ColmDawson

Terry wrote: »

J
The one thing I really respect about Jesus is the following quote which has been attributed to him: Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

If there was ever a credo to live by, then that's it.

He didn't come up with it, of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_unto_others#Ancient_Egypt

jackiebaron

There are two types of people (sounds like a Clint Eastwood spag. western) ..... those who believe in a "creator" and those who don't. Science explains everything so just leave it at that. Some would prefer to be comforted by myths than disturbed by reality. Let them be.

If they try to ram their supernatural beliefs down your gob then bate the bollix out of them. Been far too many wars over a skypilot. It's about time the nonbelievers thumped the head off the cnuts who want us all to believe in fairytales. Bit of mindless violence directed against the religionists is what's called for. Put them back in their boxes.

You don't try to reason with arseholes who believe in the tooth-fairy. You beat them up and warn them not to poison the thought process with their gibberish. Then, they'll stay at home and read tea-leaves or chant to some non-existant entity, while the rest of us can relax and fornicate.

IvySlayer

Anyone who thinks the earth is 10, 000 years old needs their head checked.

Just because they read it in a book, doesn't make it so.

ColmDawson

jackiebaron wrote: »

There are two types of people (sounds like a Clint Eastwood spag. western) ..... those who believe in a "creator" and those who don't. Science explains everything so just leave it at that. Some would prefer to be comforted by myths than disturbed by reality. Let them be.

If they try to ram their supernatural beliefs down your gob then bate the bollix out of them. Been far too many wars over a skypilot. It's about time the nonbelievers thumped the head off the cnuts who want us all to believe in fairytales. Bit of mindless violence directed against the religionists is what's called for. Put them back in their boxes.

You don't try to reason with arseholes who believe in the tooth-fairy. You beat them up and warn them not to poison the thought process with their gibberish. Then, they'll stay at home and read tea-leaves or chant to some non-existant entity, while the rest of us can relax and fornicate.

You're going to get pounced on for that! Better to say that science can answer a very, very large majority of our questions. Some things we don't quite understand ... yet!