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People of science and intelligent design.

  • 27-10-2010 7:24pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    Yeah, another religious thread. Untwist your knickers.

    I'm copying this from a post I just made in the LTI forum as I feel it's more suited to here.

    This is what happened when I attended my first diabetic day clinic today:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68716514
    No, I'm scared because my doctor has a firm belief in intelligent design.
    How do I know this?
    She asked if she could ask me a personal question during my physial exam. No problem, says I.

    "Are you Catholic?", she asked.
    I told her that I'm not, but that I was raised as Catholic.

    What followed was 20 minutes of fairly deep discussion on how the Universe was created, God's part or lack thereof, morality and the Human condition.

    I quite enjoy this kind of discussion. It's rare that I partake in it as it's usually with my friends, and they're not really interested, so it ends up being one sided with them agreeing with my arguments in order to shut me up.

    Heh. Just flicking around and there's a documentary on something similar on RTÉ2 now (mostly Darwin).

    Anyway, it was all going well until she tried to equate rape and murder to someone stealing food in order to stay alive on the grounds that we are a selfish species. Her point was that everything we do is for our own benefit, therefore a person gaining sexual gratification through rape is no different to someone stealing a loaf of bread to sate their hunger.

    I argued that they are completely different actions, and have nothing at all in common, but she countered this by asking me where I got my morals from. I said that I got them when I was growing up, and she retorted by saying that this was because of my Catholic upbringing.

    Now she was an extremely intelligent person (although when I brought up Altruism later she didn't seem to know what it meant, but I'll put this down to English not being her first language) and put forward a valid argument, but the only thing that will cause me to believe in any higher power is visible, audio and tactile proof which has no been brought about by hallucinogenic substances (which was another argument I put forth for people seeing God and the like).

    So what say you, good people of AH (and the feckers too. I don't want to discriminate). Do you find that people of science who believe in intelligent design have conflicting interests?


    Also, that thing on RTÉ (which is over now) mentioned that it was an Irish bishop who decided that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
    I googled it and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ussher

    On behalf of the nation of Ireland I would like to apologise to all sane citizens of the U.S.A. (and that includes all religious moderates) for giving you creationism.
    I'd like to, but I'm not going to.
    Dude was an Anglo-Irish CoI protestant, so I'm blaming the English on this one. :)


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,515 ✭✭✭✭admiralofthefleet


    lol wut?, tits or gtfo, tl;dr, o rly?, etc....


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,945 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    I presume it's of interest to people who enjoy walking around with fingers in their ears saying "lalalalalalalalala" all ****ing day. Others, however, seek genuine answers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭JohnathanM


    Terry wrote: »
    Do you find that people of science who believe in intelligent design have conflicting interests?

    Fairly clearly. You don't get to pick and choose the facts, and you only debase yourself and your own area when you chose to mark another as conveniently irrelevant.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    You shoulda threw one into her..........


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭PanchoVilla


    I think a medical professional asking patients about their religious beliefs is more worrying than what they believe. A Protestant doctor asking if you're a Catholic? I'd tell him/her to fúck off and mind their own business, then I'd walk out of the office and report them to the relevant authorities.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,836 ✭✭✭Sir Gallagher


    I think a medical professional asking patients about their religious beliefs is more worrying than what they believe. A Protestant doctor asking if you're a Catholic? I'd tell him/her to fúck off and mind their own business, then I'd walk out of the office and report them to the relevant authorities.

    Maybe the doctor just wants to know whether or not to give you an orange lollipop.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,070 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    If they truly believe the whole young Earth thing as well as creationism and at the same time are involved in any scientific field then it's worrying, imho



    If they just believe in a broad sense that all life started from a single point of creation then it probably wouldn't impede too much on how they perform professionally


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,939 ✭✭✭mardybumbum


    I think a medical professional asking patients about their religious beliefs is more worrying than what they believe.

    But if they are an ashkenazi jew they are more likely to develop a whole range of weird and wonderful diseases. Or so the pathology books tell us.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Well I always found this a complex and interesting conflict which has it's routes in many neurological and societ.............*rechecks forum name*.......

    You should have taken a sh1t on her desk. Asked her how she squared that with the influence of your Catholic upbringing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,906 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Terry wrote: »
    Yeah, another religious thread. Untwist your knickers.

    I'm copying this from a post I just made in the LTI forum as I feel it's more suited to here.

    This is what happened when I attended my first diabetic day clinic today:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68716514


    Now she was an extremely intelligent person (although when I brought up Altruism later she didn't seem to know what it meant, but I'll put this down to English not being her first language) and put forward a valid argument, but the only thing that will cause me to believe in any higher power is visible, audio and tactile proof which has no been brought about by hallucinogenic substances (which was another argument I put forth for people seeing God and the like).

    So what say you, good people of AH (and the feckers too. I don't want to discriminate). Do you find that people of science who believe in intelligent design have conflicting interests?


    Also, that thing on RTÉ (which is over now) mentioned that it was an Irish bishop who decided that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
    I googled it and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ussher

    On behalf of the nation of Ireland I would like to apologise to all sane citizens of the U.S.A. (and that includes all religious moderates) for giving you creationism.
    I'd like to, but I'm not going to.
    Dude was an Anglo-Irish CoI protestant, so I'm blaming the English on this one. :)

    Pretty intensive stuff to be discussing with your doctor terry...............however in keeping with AH........is she a ride?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    I think a medical professional asking patients about their religious beliefs is more worrying than what they believe. A Protestant doctor asking if you're a Catholic? I'd tell him/her to fúck off and mind their own business, then I'd walk out of the office and report them to the relevant authorities.
    If you read the post, you'll see that I don't have a problem with talking about religion and that I never mentioned the religion of the doctor. The link was just something I saw on the telly and is not really relevant, but I thought I'd throw it in here because it didn't fit anywhere else.

    She wished to discuss religion during my physical examination, so I indulged her. I just got a bit freaked out at the equating of rape to stealing to feed yourself.

    To the person who said I should have thrown her a length or whatever, I would have preferred to do the chick in front of my in the waiting room. There I was thinking that diabetes is for fat people. I couldn't have been more wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,323 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    It's funny because a close friend of mine is a doctor but a young earth Christian.

    I've never even bothered to ask her questions because........ where would i start?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Terry wrote: »
    Yeah, another religious thread. Untwist your knickers.

    I'm copying this from a post I just made in the LTI forum as I feel it's more suited to here.

    This is what happened when I attended my first diabetic day clinic today:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68716514


    Now she was an extremely intelligent person (although when I brought up Altruism later she didn't seem to know what it meant, but I'll put this down to English not being her first language) and put forward a valid argument, but the only thing that will cause me to believe in any higher power is visible, audio and tactile proof which has no been brought about by hallucinogenic substances (which was another argument I put forth for people seeing God and the like).

    So what say you, good people of AH (and the feckers too. I don't want to discriminate). Do you find that people of science who believe in intelligent design have conflicting interests?


    Also, that thing on RTÉ (which is over now) mentioned that it was an Irish bishop who decided that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
    I googled it and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ussher

    On behalf of the nation of Ireland I would like to apologise to all sane citizens of the U.S.A. (and that includes all religious moderates) for giving you creationism.
    I'd like to, but I'm not going to.
    Dude was an Anglo-Irish CoI protestant, so I'm blaming the English on this one. :)

    Another to apologise for.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
    What gets me about ID is doesn't it remove original sin from christianity?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 559 ✭✭✭Ghost Estate


    I am a little teapot


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Terry wrote: »
    If you read the post, you'll see that I don't have a problem with talking about religion and that I never mentioned the religion of the doctor. The link was just something I saw on the telly and is not really relevant, but I thought I'd throw it in here because it didn't fit anywhere else.

    She wished to discuss religion during my physical examination, so I indulged her. I just got a bit freaked out at the equating of rape to stealing to feed yourself.

    To the person who said I should have thrown her a length or whatever, I would have preferred to do the chick in front of my in the waiting room. There I was thinking that diabetes is for fat people. I couldn't have been more wrong.

    You should have asked her would she rather be raped or have her sliced pan stolen?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 45 Chorizo


    There are some good arguement for intelligent design. They just messed it up by saying there must be a creator. It was a movement against Darwin that the church jumped on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    If they truly believe the whole young Earth thing as well as creationism and at the same time are involved in any scientific field then it's worrying, imho



    If they just believe in a broad sense that all life started from a single point of creation then it probably wouldn't impede too much on how they perform professionally
    Nah She wasn't a creationist. She's not so deluded as to believe the writings of the bishop I linked to above.
    She acknowledged the creation of the universe happened billions of years ago and that we were not the first beings on this planet.

    I just realied that I forgot my standard reply when she asked why I believe we are here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    I think a medical professional asking patients about their religious beliefs is more worrying than what they believe. A Protestant doctor asking if you're a Catholic? I'd tell him/her to fúck off and mind their own business, then I'd walk out of the office and report them to the relevant authorities.

    No some doctors need to know if their patients are Jahova witnessess incase there is trouble with blood transfusions which ma lead to a law suit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Chorizo wrote: »
    There are some good arguement for intelligent design. They just messed it up by saying there must be a creator. It was a movement against Darwin that the church jumped on.

    I think I'm going to regret asking this but.....

    How can you have intelligent design but no creator?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Chorizo wrote: »
    There are some good arguement for intelligent design. They just messed it up by saying there must be a creator. It was a movement against Darwin that the church jumped on.

    What most arguements sound like is "ooh it's complicated, god must have made it". Then when you delve deeper it's more of a "but there must be a more powerful force (or somethig like that) out there".
    But there's a hell of a difference between some all powerful force who kick started a universe that we can't comprehend the size off and some god who focused on one group of people in the middle east in the bronze age who doesn't like when you worship other gods, work on sunday or eat shellfish.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 45 Chorizo


    strobe wrote: »
    I think I'm going to regret asking this but.....

    How can you have intelligent design but no creator?

    Haha i know. Ok i worded it wrong. There are some reasonable points to intelligent design that do not have to have a need for a creator.

    Interesting documentary showing both sides to the arguement.

    http://www.documentarywire.com/a-war-on-science/

    Also before anyone jumps on my back. I do not believe in intelligent design or god.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    OP: Do you mean that your doctor believes that the Universe was created by God, or do you mean that your doctor believes that said universe is 6,000 years old.

    If it is the former, I don't see anything remarkable or even crazy about that. It's perfectly reasonable to investigate as to what was the first cause behind all existence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭Sanjuro


    If an intelligent designer designed human kind, he/she/it needs to go back to the drawing board. We're more like the kind of drawings a mental patient makes with his own shit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    So what do all the Satanists Darwinists think of the meteorite/DNA story?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭KINGVictor


    Terry wrote: »
    Yeah, another religious thread. Untwist your knickers.

    I'm copying this from a post I just made in the LTI forum as I feel it's more suited to here.

    This is what happened when I attended my first diabetic day clinic today:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68716514


    Now she was an extremely intelligent person (although when I brought up Altruism later she didn't seem to know what it meant, but I'll put this down to English not being her first language) and put forward a valid argument, but the only thing that will cause me to believe in any higher power is visible, audio and tactile proof which has no been brought about by hallucinogenic substances (which was another argument I put forth for people seeing God and the like).

    So what say you, good people of AH (and the feckers too. I don't want to discriminate). Do you find that people of science who believe in intelligent design have conflicting interests?


    Also, that thing on RTÉ (which is over now) mentioned that it was an Irish bishop who decided that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
    I googled it and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ussher

    On behalf of the nation of Ireland I would like to apologise to all sane citizens of the U.S.A. (and that includes all religious moderates) for giving you creationism.
    I'd like to, but I'm not going to.
    Dude was an Anglo-Irish CoI protestant, so I'm blaming the English on this one. :)

    Quite interesting read!...

    My position on issues like this live and let live. I have come across well qualified academics and researchers that believe in both schools of thought . I ask myself sometimes why a scientist that has been trained to make conclusions based on empirical evidence that has substantiated by a rigourous, investigative and exploratory process will concur that the world was made 6000 years ago by what religion refers to as GOD, this belief is usually based on faith.

    On the other hand, I have met very knowledgable scientists that opine that God is as real as santa because based on scientific/ physical findings anything that has no actual proof of existence is false ( a priori).

    Different perceptions and they all entitiled to them, I will usually be very wary of Doctors "indoctrinating" patients but if you are ok with it , then no hassle...I think...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Another to apologise for.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
    What gets me about ID is doesn't it remove original sin from christianity?
    Judging by the discussion, I don't think the doctor believed in original sin.
    I didn't ask her what religion she was herself. I just guessed that it was a Christian denomination by the conversation. They're all the same to me really.

    Isn't original sin just a Catholic thing, or do other Christians believe that too?

    She didn't mention original sin, so that wasn't covered.
    I am a little teapot
    I'd ask that you take your sexual fantasies to the sex & sexuality forum.
    Thanks.

    fontanalis wrote: »
    What most arguements sound like is "ooh it's complicated, god must have made it". Then when you delve deeper it's more of a "but there must be a more powerful force (or somethig like that) out there".
    But there's a hell of a difference between some all powerful force who kick started a universe that we can't comprehend the size off and some god who focused on one group of people in the middle east in the bronze age who doesn't like when you worship other gods, work on sunday or eat shellfish.
    At our current level of scientific and technological awareness, I can't see us ever having a definitive answer. The LHC may provide some answers, but I don't think it will give us everything we want.

    The shellfish thing; well I have a theory that this and Pork are related to the improper cooking of these foods.
    People didn't know about bacteria 5,000 years ago. They knew that food would go bad after a certain amount of time, but they didn't know the exact reason for it.

    You get a lot of people dying from eating bad pork and shellfish, so they are deemed to be dodgy foods. As with thunder, floods and other unexplainable stuff at the time, it's all put down to God(s) being angry.
    The rest is self explanitory.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    OP: Do you mean that your doctor believes that the Universe was created by God, or do you mean that your doctor believes that said universe is 6,000 years old.

    If it is the former, I don't see anything remarkable or even crazy about that. It's perfectly reasonable to investigate as to what was the first cause behind all existence.

    Were she a creationist, I would have reported her to whoever investigates the sanity of doctors.

    As you said, questioning the beginning of the Universe is not insane. It's quite reasonable.

    I'm quite comfortble with someone who believes in intelligent design. I'm not comfortable with someone who believes that rape and stealing in order to feed oneself are equally wrong from a religious and moral standpoint.

    While my morals have roots in Christian teachings, I know that there is a massive difference in raping a woman to satisfy my sexual appetite and stealing a loaf of bread to quell my hunger.

    From a personal standpoint, I do believe that a man named Jesus existed 2,000 years ago. I believe that he was a wise man and that he was quite the pragmatist. That's really where it ends though.

    I do not believe most of the stuff written in his name. I do not believe that he was the progeny of an all powerful being.
    He was just a man who saw things as they are.

    I have a really big problem with certain interpretations of his teachings. I do not like that people have been murdered in his name.

    The one thing I really respect about Jesus is the following quote which has been attributed to him: Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

    If there was ever a credo to live by, then that's it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭ColmDawson


    Terry wrote: »
    J
    The one thing I really respect about Jesus is the following quote which has been attributed to him: Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

    If there was ever a credo to live by, then that's it.
    He didn't come up with it, of course.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_unto_others#Ancient_Egypt


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭jackiebaron


    There are two types of people (sounds like a Clint Eastwood spag. western) ..... those who believe in a "creator" and those who don't. Science explains everything so just leave it at that. Some would prefer to be comforted by myths than disturbed by reality. Let them be.

    If they try to ram their supernatural beliefs down your gob then bate the bollix out of them. Been far too many wars over a skypilot. It's about time the nonbelievers thumped the head off the cnuts who want us all to believe in fairytales. Bit of mindless violence directed against the religionists is what's called for. Put them back in their boxes.

    You don't try to reason with arseholes who believe in the tooth-fairy. You beat them up and warn them not to poison the thought process with their gibberish. Then, they'll stay at home and read tea-leaves or chant to some non-existant entity, while the rest of us can relax and fornicate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,190 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    Anyone who thinks the earth is 10, 000 years old needs their head checked.

    Just because they read it in a book, doesn't make it so.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭ColmDawson


    There are two types of people (sounds like a Clint Eastwood spag. western) ..... those who believe in a "creator" and those who don't. Science explains everything so just leave it at that. Some would prefer to be comforted by myths than disturbed by reality. Let them be.

    If they try to ram their supernatural beliefs down your gob then bate the bollix out of them. Been far too many wars over a skypilot. It's about time the nonbelievers thumped the head off the cnuts who want us all to believe in fairytales. Bit of mindless violence directed against the religionists is what's called for. Put them back in their boxes.

    You don't try to reason with arseholes who believe in the tooth-fairy. You beat them up and warn them not to poison the thought process with their gibberish. Then, they'll stay at home and read tea-leaves or chant to some non-existant entity, while the rest of us can relax and fornicate.
    You're going to get pounced on for that! Better to say that science can answer a very, very large majority of our questions. Some things we don't quite understand ... yet!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,716 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    Terry wrote: »
    So what say you, good people of AH (and the feckers too. I don't want to discriminate). Do you find that people of science who believe in intelligent design have conflicting interests?
    JohnathanM wrote: »
    Fairly clearly. You don't get to pick and choose the facts, and you only debase yourself and your own area when you chose to mark another as conveniently irrelevant.

    I don't agree. People are perfectly capable of holding entirely opposing opinions or beliefs in their brain and thinking both are true. As long as both are kept in their appropriate sphere I don't really see the issue. Many great scientists and doctors believed in God. They would have conflicting interests however, if they were involved in some group, for instance a Bible publishing company, and advising you to seek solace there (by buying a copy of the Bible) rather than prescribing a recommend course of treatment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭JohnathanM


    Earthhorse wrote: »
    ... Many great scientists and doctors believed in God.

    Yeah, but believing in God and believing in ID are two different things. A belief in God doesn't have to be from religion, being simply an opinion that something didn't come from nothing. I was responding to a quote on ID, which is an attempt to legitimise creationism. It attempts to undermine good science and so conflicts directly with it. I would have a problem taking seriously any scientist who would choose what he's told over what he can observe.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    ColmDawson wrote: »
    He didn't come up with it, of course.
    True the golden rule has been around in many cultures in many times. To be fair to the lake of Galilee pedestrian he did make it an active instruction not a passive one which the previous instances were more about. He made the point several times to actively seek out those to help. EG the good Samaritan. Think of the most rabid anti traveler AH'r being the audience and exchange "Samaritan" with "Knacker" and you'll get some gist of what his audience would have felt. Even today in Israel Samaritans are considered beyond the Pale. His comments along the lines of "what you do for the lowliest among you, you do for me/When I was hungry you fed me" etc. It's well arguably an evolution of the extant notion. I'm with Gandhi on Yeshua. Have a lot of time for him, not so much for those who claim to follow him.
    There are two types of people (sounds like a Clint Eastwood spag. western) ..... those who believe in a "creator" and those who don't. Science explains everything so just leave it at that. Some would prefer to be comforted by myths than disturbed by reality. Let them be.

    If they try to ram their supernatural beliefs down your gob then bate the bollix out of them. Been far too many wars over a skypilot. It's about time the nonbelievers thumped the head off the cnuts who want us all to believe in fairytales. Bit of mindless violence directed against the religionists is what's called for. Put them back in their boxes.

    You don't try to reason with arseholes who believe in the tooth-fairy. You beat them up and warn them not to poison the thought process with their gibberish. Then, they'll stay at home and read tea-leaves or chant to some non-existant entity, while the rest of us can relax and fornicate.
    Yea, may be tongue in cheek(I hope!:D) but the problem I see with this them and us ballsology is the digging in of heels and the recalcitrance which may lead to worse theology and bad science. The most dangerous man of any hue is one who thinks himself unassailably right. Plus I only tend to take seriously those with at least a smattering of understanding of both sides of an opinion. And I do see this lack of knowledge on both sides of this argument. The Theists and yes *gasp* the atheists too.

    Do I believe in Genesis or any of the other creation myths? Nope. I doubt many educated men have, even from the get go. They're stories, cultural tools to centre a people or group or parables. The nutters, mostly Americans(though there are others) miss that. So do the other side, when they assume someone who is a theist considers them more than that or lives their lives by them.

    Intelligent design? Well we have to go back to point zero and start defining both "intelligent" and "design". To do that objectively we have to step back from the notion of how we view it. Just like theists anthropomorphise "God" and have seen "him" as a human shaped entity with human emotions and needs, atheists are equally guilty of that albeit more subtly. We view the universe through the prism of our own experience of existence so words like "intelligent design" are inherently loaded from the get go. A dolphin say would have a very different experience and anthropomorphisation* concept.

    There is a "design" of sorts in the universe. There is one in nature in all its forms. In my definition it would be increasing structure and complexity over time. The building blocks may be simple, but that's no barrier to design. The Taj Mahal is made of simple(enough) rock but is damned impressive. So if we were to learn that the universe was born and like a human infant was just a ball of potential with simple enough rules, that could with time become the adult Leonardo or Mozart and gain something approaching an "intelligence" and conscience I would not be that shocked. Could we name it? Hard to say and I leave that to better minds and theologians, but it might be something. Think of the Gaia principle about this little rock we all share. Extend Gaia to our universe, extend evolution to our universe. There may well a self governing "plan" afoot. Best of all, we would be part and parcel of it. Not apart from it. This universe might know the falling of a wren as well as a king and it might notice too.






    *should be a word :o:D

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Terry: I don't think the comparison between rape, and stealing food would be all that typical. I don't think it is rooted in Christianity or Protestantism per sé.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    squod wrote: »
    So what do all the Satanists Darwinists think of the meteorite/DNA story?

    Darwin explained how life evolved not how it started.
    The meteorite/DNA "story" (panspermia) is one possible explanation for how life started/arrived on earth, then evolution explains the rest. Easy :D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Did she ask you about your religion apropos of some medical issue? Like she had to know if you were a Jehovah's Witness or somethin?

    Pretty sure that would be considered rather unprofessional otherwise...

    Obviously it didn't bother you, nor would it bother me, but I'm not too keen on the idea that there's a doctor trying to convert her patients during a consultation :confused: Is there a board or somethin that you can tell about this? Or tell the doctor to STFU going forward


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    The Religion Question only seems to be a Hangup for the Irish, I remember a Few years ago I had to go to A&E, there was a form that had to be filled in, one of the questions was Religion, I left that one blank, So when I went back to the counter the Nurse noticed it and asked me again, She thought I had missed the Question and she really couldnt understand my Anger at being asked that Question


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The Religion Question only seems to be a Hangup for the Irish, I remember a Few years ago I had to go to A&E, there was a form that had to be filled in, one of the questions was Religion, I left that one blank, So when I went back to the counter the Nurse noticed it and asked me again, She thought I had missed the Question and she really couldnt understand my Anger at being asked that Question
    Unless you're a Jehovah Witness or something, Im not sure I see the relevance in disclosing your religion in an emergency room.
    Do you find that people of science who believe in intelligent design have conflicting interests?
    Thing is, it's irrelevant to so many branches of science. In medicine, it doesn't matter how, Rare Plant X wound up in the jungles of Zimbastantinople: it just matters that it has certain biological and chemical properties that are relevant to curing illness. Even evolution is theoretical and if you asked me straight, I couldn't think of too many scientific principles that Rely on the theory being true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭virmilitaris


    Anyway, it was all going well until she tried to equate rape and murder to someone stealing food in order to stay alive on the grounds that we are a selfish species. Her point was that everything we do is for our own benefit, therefore a person gaining sexual gratification through rape is no different to someone stealing a loaf of bread to sate their hunger.

    Of course stealing bread to save yourself from starvation and committing rape are different when we view it from the viewpoint of our modern day morals.

    But take an early human civilisation where women were seen as property, similar to animals. From that viewpoint there's not much difference at all.

    I don't see what that has to do with Intelligent design though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭Dr Strange


    She asked if she could ask me a personal question during my physial exam.

    Now this could've gone in a completely different direction. Was she hot? [/AH]


    Seriously, I do not worry about the private beliefs of my doctors and other health practitioners as long as they adhere to their medical standards and do their best to help me with my ailments.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,358 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    It is worth mentioning that although the OP mentioned both Creationism and Intelligent Design, that they are both entirely the same thing.

    This is not simply my opinion, but something that was established in US courts of law. There simply is nothing different between the two aside from the title.

    For example in the Dover Trial on ID it was found when a US court banned the teaching of creationism in schools, one of the poster Text Books for creationism was taken and a simple search/replace was run on it. Creationism was replaced with Intelligent Design. Creator was replaced with Designer. The book was then simply re-released.

    Further to this, proponents of ID have attempted not just to get teaching of their fantasy into schools, but in order to achieve this they literally had the definition of science itself changed in such a way as to allow "non-natural" explanations into science. I do not know about you but the only "non-natural" thing I can think of is the supernatural. Ask yourself if ID is so different from creationism then why is it so important to have science recognize the supernatural?

    But do not take my word for this either. Micheal Behe the poster boy for Intelligent Design said in his statement and again on the stand that this new definition of science would not only open up science to ID but to everything from astrology to alchemy. He even added that he felt astrology has made several important contributions to the world of science.

    They simply are one and the same thing, and the re-branding was described by the Judge in the Dover trial as a "canard".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    Overheal wrote: »
    Unless you're a Jehovah Witness or something, Im not sure I see the relevance in disclosing your religion in an emergency room.

    could be useful info if someone's helath deteriorated and they were suddenly in danger of death and wanted the appropriate priest/minister/pastor/etc


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    sam34 wrote: »
    could be useful info if someone's helath deteriorated and they were suddenly in danger of death and wanted the appropriate priest/minister/pastor/etc

    Yeah, but you can be sure that person would fill in the little box on the Form ;)

    I finds it offensive to be asked, Tis absolutley no ones business but mine, and I dont want to be pigeonholed because of Something I had no say in choosing.

    Its on some of the Police forms here as well, I still refuse to answer them and once had my lawyer rip the desk sargent a new one for 'Assuming' that I was a Catholic and fillin in the form on my behalf.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Answering th OP's Q:

    The centre of my belief system, my logic, my values, is this statement:

    "Everyone should be able to do anything they want to do, as long as they are not stopping someone else form doing ehat they want to do.

    Person wants to believe in a concept which can neither be conclusively 100% proved nor 100% disproved. They should be allowed do that, as long as that person isn't stopping someone else from believing something else (by evangelising.)

    Yes, that means if someone believes "OMG OMG OMG THE WURLZZ GUNNA INDD IN TEW MINITS COZ A DEH BIG CUSTURD IN DAH SKAI!!!!!!!!" every day, then off you let the crazies go.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    It's funny because a close friend of mine is a doctor but a young earth Christian.

    I've never even bothered to ask her questions because........ where would i start?

    Ask her about bacterial resistance? Sure bacteria don't evolve, right? :confused:


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Chorizo wrote: »
    There are some good arguement for intelligent design. They just messed it up by saying there must be a creator. It was a movement against Darwin that the church jumped on.

    The ID arguments only came after they decided to remove the Creator from creationism, in an attempt to avoid the constitutional ban in America on religion in schools.

    Ever heard of the Wedge Strategy for example?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Terry wrote: »
    So what say you, good people of AH (and the feckers too. I don't want to discriminate). Do you find that people of science who believe in intelligent design have conflicting interests?

    Does not compute. There is no conflict.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭jimthemental


    If the designer was intelligent why have we got religious fundamentalism?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,466 ✭✭✭Snakeblood


    I'd have it about the same level as a doctor who smokes. People can have their foibles as long as they do the work to the best of their ability. It's not harming me, unless it harms me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    Did the doctor actually say that that she believes the world is only 6000 years old? I know plenty of Catholic people who accept the bible as metaphor, as a collection of interpretations collated during a time of limited knowledge.

    Both my parents accept the obvious age of the universe and the mechanics (as they are currently understood ) by which it probably came about, but they also believe in the concept of God. One can by the "why", the other can be the "how".

    It's really not hard to wrap your head around that concept. Not as much fun as making jokes and retard comments about religious people though.


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