Can my job ask me to come in 10 mins early

Sidney77

My job is asking me to come in everyday 10 mins earlier than my shift but are telling me that I will not be paid for this time. Can they do this? My guess is no.

gerrycollins

if they want you at your desk at 9am then you should be ready to go at 9am not walking in the door or taking your jacket off etc at 9am

I think the 10 mins early is just so that you can be ready to go on time etc.

The_Morrigan

gerrycollins wrote: »

if they want you at your desk at 9am then you should be ready to go at 9am not walking in the door or taking your jacket off etc at 9am

I think the 10 mins early is just so that you can be ready to go on time etc.

+1

mikemac

Been in this situation when working on a factory floor

Your shift started at 8am and that meant on the floor, all your safety gear on and ready to go at 8am.
Not on site in the canteen or in the locker room putting on your gear at 8am.

I'd say your boss isn't asking you to do mandatory unpaid work. They just want you there at the start time and all set to start

jimmycrackcorm

You should be telling them you will be 100% ready for when your shift is starting but if they want you to work any earlier or later than your contract specifies then they wil have to pay you for it.

dan_d

They want you to be on the floor, ready to go at whatever your starting time is.

Not walking in the door to spend the next 10 mins getting coffee, settling down.

So yes.

Ozziej

I work for a non-unionised multinational Pharmaceutical site. People on shift come in early to do handover meeting with previous shift and stay a little later to faciliate the next shift handover. We haven't had any pay cuts and future is bright. One of reasons they chose to increase investment here and close down other unionised sites in Ireland is our flexible agile attitude.

Suck it up its only 10 minutes. You are lucky to have a job. That kind of attitude persuades investment to leave these shores.

santiago

Sidney77 wrote: »

My job is asking me to come in everyday 10 mins earlier than my shift but are telling me that I will not be paid for this time. .

You should do that without being asked!

danbohan

Sidney77 wrote: »

My job is asking me to come in everyday 10 mins earlier than my shift but are telling me that I will not be paid for this time. Can they do this? My guess is no.

that's an infringement of your basic human rights , call the UN and resign. we cant have people with your obvious commitment to your job been treated like that !

ScouseMouse

Ozziej wrote: »

I work for a non-unionised multinational Pharmaceutical site. People on shift come in early to do handover meeting with previous shift and stay a little later to faciliate the next shift handover. We haven't had any pay cuts and future is bright. One of reasons they chose to increase investment here and close down other unionised sites in Ireland is our flexible agile attitude.

Suck it up its only 10 minutes. You are lucky to have a job. That kind of attitude persuades investment to leave these shores.

What a good attitude. Any chance you could go and work in South Dublin County Council ?

You could work wonders.

Denerick

I don't see what is controversial about being ready to start on the hour, which means being 100% punctual and requires you being a little early. Otherwise it would be unfair on those finishing.

Gman1

danbohan wrote: »

that's an infringement of your basic human rights , call the UN and resign. we cant have people with your obvious commitment to your job been treated like that !

Its not an infringement of your basic human rights. If they said you were not allowed to go to the toilet, then it would be infringing your basic human rights.

Also to the OP do not resign, you should be there 10 minutes early. Most jobs are the same, and expect you to be a few minutes early.

Denerick

Gman1 wrote: »

Its not an infringement of your basic human rights. If they said you were not allowed to go to the toilet, then it would be infringing your basic human rights.

Also to the OP do not resign, you should be there 10 minutes early. Most jobs are the same, and expect you to be a few minutes early.

Is there something wrong with your irony meter?

dan_d

Gman1 wrote: »

Its not an infringement of your basic human rights. If they said you were not allowed to go to the toilet, then it would be infringing your basic human rights.

Also to the OP do not resign, you should be there 10 minutes early. Most jobs are the same, and expect you to be a few minutes early.

Might be sarcasm....

BostonB

Sidney77 wrote: »

My job is asking me to come in everyday 10 mins earlier than my shift but are telling me that I will not be paid for this time. Can they do this? My guess is no.

Why would you not want to do this. Its only 10 mins. Or 50 mins a week.

Gman1

Denerick wrote: »

Is there something wrong with your irony meter?

i forgot that its very easy to tell when someone is being sarcastic over the internet.

I thought it was another boards moron giving stupid advice. boards.ie is full of them.

Sidney77

ok ill be more specific and see if anyone has anything intelligent or worthwhile to say,

firstly when we arrive in we take our jackets off, put our work jackets on and go to where we begin work, this takes one minute max, what do we do for the other 9 minutes

secondly, people are arrivng at 8.55 and are asked for an explanation for being late.

this thread isnt about whether we would want to arrive early or that its only ten minutes, anyone who read the question will see that the question is "CAN they demand this?"

as for the people who mentioned our attitute to the job i can tell you that my colleagues and i are always there when the shift begins, but its not often that we would arrive ten mins early,

thanks to those of you with good intelligent answers,

whippet

man .... I can't really comprehend this.

Your employer obviously has a problem with people arriving bang on 9am and hanging around getting jackets on etc ..... otherwise he wouldn't have to ask people to come in.

For the last number couple of years I have been starting at least an hour early every day, staying on after normal hours a couple of days a week .. and not recieved a single cent for doing it. What I have gotten is the respect of my employer who knows who has the best interests of the company at heart and when we get through this rough patch ..it will be remembered!!!

get in to work a few minutes earlier and be greatful to have a job in this day and age.

even for footie training we were always expected to be on the training pitch 10 minutes before the start to ensure that at half seven everyone is ready to start at the same time !!!

peasant

whippet wrote: »

What I have gotten is the respect of my employer who knows who has the best interests of the company at heart and when we get through this rough patch ..it will be remembered!!!

Will it now?

Not all employers are decent either.

In the case of the OP ...10 mins really is no case to get all unionised and confrontational ...it just makes sense.

But working hours and hours for free and goodwill in the future is "optimistic" to put it kindly.

As an employee all you have to sell is your workforce and your time ...sell it wisely

BostonB

If you don't want a discussion on something, don't ask on a forum open to the entire world to comment. Thats just common sense.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/hours-of-work/working_week

Being asked to be early for shift, isn't that usual in my experience. If its a new thing, its most likely because theres a problem with people being late.

Sidney77

Never said I didnt want a discussion, thats why i posted. I just wanted good intelligent answers and not stupid ones from keyboard warriors.

Thanks for posting that link.

The manager who made this rule is very new and even if there was a problem with timekeeping (which there rarely is,) she wouldnt know about it. Most people are in on time and do their jobs well.

But telling people they are late when they turn up 5 mins before a shift begins is not right in my opinion

BostonB

Ask a bad question, get a bad answer. All the information your giving now, you should have given at the start. Because you were vague, you got vague answers. What you're describing now, is an entirely different context.

IMO, unless theres something in your contract that says otherwise, or you have a union to fight it, then yes they can do this, if its applied equally to all, with enough correct notice. AFAIK. Assuming thats all ok, I would to see who has actually approved this. Is the manager acting on their own, do they have the authority to do that, or is it something thats come from much higher. something you can check with HR etc.

encyclopedia

whippet wrote: »

man .... I can't really comprehend this.

Your employer obviously has a problem with people arriving bang on 9am and hanging around getting jackets on etc ..... otherwise he wouldn't have to ask people to come in.

For the last number couple of years I have been starting at least an hour early every day, staying on after normal hours a couple of days a week .. and not recieved a single cent for doing it. What I have gotten is the respect of my employer who knows who has the best interests of the company at heart and when we get through this rough patch ..it will be remembered!!!

get in to work a few minutes earlier and be greatful to have a job in this day and age.

even for footie training we were always expected to be on the training pitch 10 minutes before the start to ensure that at half seven everyone is ready to start at the same time !!!

You are weakening your bargaining power as an employee by doing extra hours for free. Why would any employer pay you more for a job when you are willing to work for less which is exactly what you are doing now. It is also weaken the bargaining power of your colleagues. I can understand that times are tougher now for employers but loyalty of employers in my experience is to make money, this is precisely why they are in business. When the "Good times" come back employers will not suddenly want to give you an extra share of the profits. Saying that I don’t know what relationship you have with your employer and I hope for your sake that I will be proved wrong. The point about football practice is irrelevant as you are not paid for that, it’s a voluntary past-time.

For the OP, are you in a union, if so which union is it and can you contact them about it. The advice about contacting HR about company policy is good. The fact that there is a new manager would suggest that she is behind it and possibly not following company policy. It certainly seems like an unfair situation to me especially the fact that punctuality is not a problem. Are you permanent as this is important as to what rights you have? It could be also that the new manager is just setting her mark and as time goes by she will ease off this policy. Don’t sign a contract change if they approach you about it without consulting the union (if you are in one) as this would suggest to the employer that you agree with this policy.

Sidney77

Thanks encyclopedia

No union. We do have contracts but they are signed when employment begins so nothing about that is in the current one.

In answer to your other question Boston she made this decision herself (despite that she is often late, but thats a different matter). We ourselves are discussing if this is a rule she can enforce, both legally and with regard to company policy and take disciplinary action for people arriving 5 minutes early.

gandalf

If you were being asked to come in half an hour earlier I would query that but 10 minutes is nothing really. Is it really putting you out that much? If it is then explain that in a logical fashion to your manager.

In my last few jobs I would be in the office an hour earlier than I needed to be because I was avoiding traffic. I worked that hour even-though I wasn't paid for it as well. Then again it was Sales based and part of my salary was commission based.

If it is really a problem for you I would query why this new policy is in place in a non confrontational manner. I would also not watch what the manager does, you have no idea what is in her contract. She may be working from home as well.

thirtythirty

Sidney77 wrote: »

My job is asking me to come in everyday 10 mins earlier than my shift but are telling me that I will not be paid for this time. Can they do this? My guess is no.

That's pathetic.
Every week I put in between 5 and 10 hours extra unpaid, occassionally more. It's called doing your job and being an asset to the organisation.

If you like to look at it as a direct payment/productivity ratio though, despite the fact that your hourly wage doesn't change according to your outputs, I assume then that you are at full working capacity from beginning to end of your shift, with zero ass scratching time?

edit: your original post which i've quoted reads of bad attitude, hence my response. I've now read your followup posts, but I still don't understand the problem. It's 10 minutes! 5 more than the time you'd be arriving anyway, plus it allows for unforseen delays on your journey to work, reducing the amount of time and people that start late throughout the year.

BostonB

I think the OP has now clarified that is a bit more to it than simply starting 10 mins early. We have to assume that the OP is telling us the truth stating there isn't a lateness problem. Accepting that, it seems that this a new manager marking their territory, to establish themselves, regardless if its required or not. As such the OP has to find out if the powers that be are happy that this take priority over upsetting the existing arrangements and staff. If they are theres nothing you can do IMO.

Strikes me as one of those people that have zero tolerance for time keeping if its in the company favor, but if its the other way around like asking people to stay late, or put in extra hours,m they can't see why staff have a problem with it. Which is simply unfair.

BostonB

spottyelephant wrote: »

That's pathetic.
Every week I put in between 5 and 10 hours extra unpaid, occassionally more. It's called doing your job and being an asset to the organisation.

If you like to look at it as a direct payment/productivity ratio though, despite the fact that your hourly wage doesn't change according to your outputs, I assume then that you are at full working capacity from beginning to end of your shift, with zero ass scratching time?

I don't agree. Very rarely have I found that doing extra hours for free, (as in not getting the time back in lieu) is worth it. Its almost always taken advantage of, and all it gets you is more unpaid work. In my experience, its usually down to poor planning, that requires this extra time in the first place.

thirtythirty

BostonB wrote: »

I don't agree. Very rarely have I found that doing extra hours for free, (as in not getting the time back in lieu) is worth it. Its almost always taken advantage of, and all it gets you is more unpaid work. In my experience, its usually down to poor planning, that requires this extra time in the first place.

I think it depends on your industry. Not everything can be fitted nicely inside 9-5 5 days a week. Some people might get taken advantage of, sure, but in those cases if they're not happy to do it, there's 50 people behind them who are.

My view is you get paid to do a job, not time.


edit: also OP, with such a tiny issue, I would think that you'll do more damage getting your back up about it than anything else. Firstly the manager is likely to be "wtf is the fuss about", legitimately in my view, and will lose respect for you. But more importantly, you weaken argument or bargaining positions for the future due to management's view of "sure they whine at everything", plus if you just accept this, you can pull it out of the back pocket down the line if for instance management turns around and says "from now on be in at half 8".

inforfun

gandalf wrote: »

If you were being asked to come in half an hour earlier I would query that but 10 minutes is nothing really. Is it really putting you out that much? If it is then explain that in a logical fashion to your manager.

I dont know. If you are depending on public transport, coming in 10 mins early could mean leaving home 30 minutes earlier.
If i would always be on time when the work starts i definately would not be prepared to get out of my bed 30 minutes earlier, just to please a new manager who wants to make a name for her or himself.

BostonB

spottyelephant wrote: »

I think it depends on your industry. Not everything can be fitted nicely inside 9-5 5 days a week. Some people might get taken advantage of, sure, but in those cases if they're not happy to do it, there's 50 people behind them who are.

My view is you get paid to do a job, not time....

Time is not important. Theres a motto for efficiency.

Its rare in my experience to see people working extra hours for free on a well run project. once off to get over a hump/crisis maybe. But not when it becomes a working culture. I've certainly left places where I felt this was unreasonable, and had stats to prove it was unsustainable and wasn't achieving anything. They ignored all advice and went bust about 12 months later.

Dublinstiofán

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EY7lYRneHc

I dont think this even warrants a post about it for god sake.

Tell em if your required to go in 10 minutes early your also leaving ten minutes early!


Oh and harden the **** up Sidney

star.chaser

Yes and you can also ask your job for a €25,000 christmas bonus.

Scambuster

OP, no they can't.

It's a bit tricky but I would keep on coming in at 9. Anytime this is queried just come up with some excuse until they get the message.

Ignore these sad jobsworths that think they are going straight to the top. The reality is they devalue the rest of our work and are laughed at by employers for their weakness.

BostonB

Scambuster wrote: »

OP, no they can't....

according to what?

whippet

encyclopedia wrote: »

You are weakening your bargaining power as an employee by doing extra hours for free. Why would any employer pay you more for a job when you are willing to work for less which is exactly what you are doing now. It is also weaken the bargaining power of your colleagues. I can understand that times are tougher now for employers but loyalty of employers in my experience is to make money, this is precisely why they are in business. When the "Good times" come back employers will not suddenly want to give you an extra share of the profits. Saying that I don’t know what relationship you have with your employer and I hope for your sake that I will be proved wrong. The point about football practice is irrelevant as you are not paid for that, it’s a voluntary past-time.
.

you must subscribe to the Joe Higgin's school of employee / employer relationships.

Not every employer is a scrooge. I am working for my employer for just over 10 years and I have given above and beyond what is in my contract and on the other hand I have recieved above and beyond what is in my contract.

That is probably why I have managed to get promoted regularly over the years ......

I fully intend to be an employer in a couple of years and I will looking to recruit and retain employees who are flexible, loyal and capable and while they will have to work hard to stay employed by me I will equally have to work hard to ensure that the best available will want to work for me.

If you want to spend your 40 odd years of working life running in for the bell at 9am and running back out at half five on the button and bitching about 'the man' .. get used to bitterness of it.

BostonB

I think you are missing the point.

The employer didn't put this in place. As far as we know. Its perhaps a new manager stamping their authority without just cause. Probably.

While its great you have a good employer, theres a good many out there, who aren't.

newbie2

Sidney77 wrote: »

My job is asking me to come in everyday 10 mins earlier than my shift but are telling me that I will not be paid for this time. Can they do this? My guess is no.

Yes they can ask you to come in 10 minutes early - but you don't have to do it.

It also depends on whether you're paid a wage or a salary. And the T&C's of your contract. No-one should have to work more than they're paid/contracted to IMO. If they do, it's normally because of bad planning or a slow/incompentant worker.

LOL at all the droolers saying you're lucky to have a job. Bunch of whingers. Also LOL at everyone who works "5/10 hours a week extra for no extra pay". Feckin' great employees you all are - I'd love to have you working for me. I'd have you working 20 hours extra if i could and so would every manager there is. Part of a manager's job is to get the most prductivity out of the workforce for the least amount of cost.

If the manager wants you to do 10 minutes a day this month, what's stopping her asking for 15 minutes next month, or 30 minutes the month after?

encyclopedia

whippet wrote: »

you must subscribe to the Joe Higgin's school of employee / employer relationships.

Not every employer is a scrooge. I am working for my employer for just over 10 years and I have given above and beyond what is in my contract and on the other hand I have recieved above and beyond what is in my contract.

That is probably why I have managed to get promoted regularly over the years ......

I fully intend to be an employer in a couple of years and I will looking to recruit and retain employees who are flexible, loyal and capable and while they will have to work hard to stay employed by me I will equally have to work hard to ensure that the best available will want to work for me.

If you want to spend your 40 odd years of working life running in for the bell at 9am and running back out at half five on the button and bitching about 'the man' .. get used to bitterness of it.

You are clearly in a position with your employer that a lot of other people are not. You seem to know them personally which makes it easier to build up a trust. In most scenarios such as multinational companies, employees are taking orders from other employees in the form of management. The management are likely to have targets that they are required to achieve from head office and if they can get you to work for free helping them to achieve these targets they are likely to abuse that, after all they are looking to (like yourself) move up the ladder in the process. If they do get a promotion due to achieving targets which is ultimately down to staff giving free hours, it is likely that this promotion would either involve moving department or area. Free hours that the staff gave would then be worthless even from a promotional point of view as that manager no longer represents them. I have come across scenarios like this so employers to me can be "scrooges" as you put it. I have come across managers who would do absolutely everything within in their power to get that promotion even if it means making other people’s lives more difficult. These people did not care about anyone but themselves including the company. I am not being bitter I am simply seeing the world for exactly what it is.

The OPs position seems to be different to yours so it’s unfair for you to judge the situation without knowing the facts, maybe they do not want or are not in a position to get a promotion like you are.

To the OP, why is there no union, are they refusing to allow ye? Is it a multinational company, if not maybe you could get a representative to talk to the owners or higher management. I understand that it is not about the 10 minutes and more to do with the principle of it. If you do this where do her demands stop?

Scambuster

Any lick arse that is going to work for free to get one over me and other colleages, devaluing our efforts, will find their work sabotaged and hindered at every turn.

Rented Mule

Scambuster wrote: »

Any lick arse that is going to work for free to get one over me and other colleages, devaluing our efforts, will find their work sabotaged and hindered at every turn.

.....and you wonder why companies are fleeing Ireland.

I don't recommend anyone 'work for free', but I do think that employees that are paid for an eight hour day, should work an eight hour day.

If people don't like the idea, then perhaps they should work for themselves and see what the real world is like.

Corruptedmorals

If it means what everyone has said, being ready to go AT 8am and not walking in the door then- then what's the problem? In my job a few staff come in 15 minutes early, generally customer service staff to count safes and have the floats ready. They are paid for this and the end of their shift is changed accordingly so it's the same as everyone else's shift pay-wise. If you mean it's something like that but the end of your shift would be the same so you wouldn't be paid for the extra 10 minutes, I can see how that might be slightly annoying- but it's only 10 minutes. They can ask you all they want, they can't force you.

whippet

Scambuster wrote: »

Any lick arse that is going to work for free to get one over me and other colleages, devaluing our efforts, will find their work sabotaged and hindered at every turn.

yeah ... and while these lick arses are bettering themselves and reaping the rewards you'll still be dancing around the barrel fire with your mates wondering who will get chopped first at the next round of redundancies.

I recently had to make someone redundant, I had a choice of three staff who did the same job. The guy who was eventually let go was the lad who arrived bang on 9am ... put the kettle on, popped the bread in to the toaster, wandered to his desk to flute about with his fantasy football team while having breakfast and eventually got stuck in to things about half nine.

he was shocked to be the chosen one .. most other people were not.

eurokev

ridiculous. Be happy you have job. I cant stand people like you, extremely frustrating for hard workers to work with people who nit-pick at pathetic things. Be happy over the moon youre working. We all have to give a little extra in work. We are payed ridiculously in this country compared to others. Or else make a mountain out of it and have a the jobs shipped abroad to more grateful people. Pfff!!!!

eurokev

whippet wrote: »

you must subscribe to the Joe Higgin's school of employee / employer relationships.

Not every employer is a scrooge. I am working for my employer for just over 10 years and I have given above and beyond what is in my contract and on the other hand I have recieved above and beyond what is in my contract.

That is probably why I have managed to get promoted regularly over the years ......

I fully intend to be an employer in a couple of years and I will looking to recruit and retain employees who are flexible, loyal and capable and while they will have to work hard to stay employed by me I will equally have to work hard to ensure that the best available will want to work for me.

If you want to spend your 40 odd years of working life running in for the bell at 9am and running back out at half five on the button and bitching about 'the man' .. get used to bitterness of it.

Here, Here. Great to see people like you doing well. Hope everything keeps going well for you, sounds like you deserve it

Scambuster

eurokev wrote: »

Here, Here. Great to see people like you doing well. Hope everything keeps going well for you, sounds like you deserve it

GUys like this cause so much heartache. He might get promoted somewhere by working for free, taking a job that some able guy might have got who just didnt' want to work 50-60 hours a week away from his family. Thhis guy will be the sort of manager who will expect others to share his horrible ethic. I;ve seen it before. It causes great hardship in families and it is completely unessecary.

encyclopedia

Scambuster wrote: »

GUys like this cause so much heartache. He might get promoted somewhere by working for free, taking a job that some able guy might have got who just didnt' want to work 50-60 hours a week away from his family. Thhis guy will be the sort of manager who will expect others to share his horrible ethic. I;ve seen it before. It causes great hardship in families and it is completely unessecary.

I'm with you on this, there are some really terrible people out there that will do anything to get one over on the next person just for a promotion. If the only way of getting promotion is to screw over everyone else then I would rather not work for that company. Life is too short to have such low opinions of other people and to treat them so poorly for personal financial gain. I didn't reply or rise to eurokev though cos I just assumed it was someone trolling

borderlinemeath

Scambuster wrote: »

Any lick arse that is going to work for free to get one over me and other colleages, devaluing our efforts, will find their work sabotaged and hindered at every turn.

Thats a pretty sickening attitude you have. Employees like you will be first in the firing line for redundencies if they're due.

I wouldn't be bothered at the extra 10 mins, others would, it depends on your work ethic and if you get job satisfaction from your role.

I think we get overpaid in this country for very little productivity - the amount of slacking I see everyday- not just in my employers but everywhere in public (with the exception of nurses and junior doctors) would lead me to believe this.

faceman

OP, has anyone asked the manager why you are being asked to arrive 10 minutes early? Seems to me like your first starting point. You won't get fired for asking!

Without knowing what and where you work ita difficult to ascertain the relevance of the request. Perhaps you have other perks in top of your salary or bonuses that take stock of effort during the month etc

10 minutes a day is half days work a month.

It tends to be give and take with many companies. They may make non contractual requests on one hand but offer non contractual flexibility/bonuses/perks elsewhere

You need to consider this before doing anything drastic

That's being said, pulling people up for 'being late' when they arrive 5 mins early for their shift is unacceptable

This crap of "you're lucky to have a job" should be dropped. It's the lamest counter argument to work issues I've heard.

Duckjob

It's a difficult one to call actually...

On the one hand, a bit of flexibility is a very valuable asset for an employee to have. That doesn't mean being a doormat - it should always occur within a culture of give and take between the employer and employee. Employees that stick rigidly to rule books and quote union rules etc. all the time can be very hard work to employ and manage.

On the other hand, if there genuinely hadn't been any problem with lateness before, and its just a case of a new manager being a bully, then that shouldn't just be accepted either. If that is the case, it will do more damage than good in the long term, as it will just affect staff attitude negatively.

Mister men

Sidney77 wrote: »

My job is asking me to come in everyday 10 mins earlier than my shift but are telling me that I will not be paid for this time. Can they do this? My guess is no.

Tell then to do one. If they want you in at 10 minutes to 9 then tell them to draw you up a new contract with extra pay or to forget about it. DON'T let your employer take advantage of you.