Child Support-Please read

noel123ie · 25-10-2010 10:00am #1

Hi

Ive a 10 year old daughter who Ive paid support for since day 1.Ive had a history of having great difficulty getting visiting rights. I had to go to court to get access rights and even after this the childs mother would not bring child to ageeed meeting place or would arrive an hour after agreed meeting times or not at all(I do not live locally)

I have not seen my daughter for 4 years as he mother was telling my daughter this I will evil and turning her against me so I thought it was in the best interest of my daughter to cut contact.

The childs mother is now married and husband has taken on daughter as his own which is great.

Ive just noticed that weekly maintance payment have failed and only reason I can work out is that mother is after closing account

She has not contacted to ask why monies have not come through and has not passed on new account details.

I want to pass on monies owed and continue payment so I will write to the childs mother-she has changed mobile numbers and I want something in writing. If she does not reply Ill get my solicitor to write so I have something down to cover me legally.

Is this the best way to proceed?

Thanks
Noel

alex73 · 25-10-2010 10:04am

Man... Can't you take a hint. You have not seen your daughter for 4 years.

noel123ie · 25-10-2010 10:06am

alex73 wrote: »

Man... Can't you take a hint. You have not seen your daughter for 4 years.

I took a hint four years ago but I have a moral and legal obligation to this child

Thanks
Noel

alex73 · 25-10-2010 10:12am

They obviously want nothing to do with you. I would suggest that you put the money aside for your daughter. Open a saving account in her name and send the payment there. If your ex-partner/Gfriend comes looking for the money, well its there. When you daughter comes looking for you, its also there and it shows that you were really concerned.

noel123ie · 25-10-2010 10:15am

alex73 wrote: »

They obviously want nothing to do with you. I would suggest that you put the money aside for your daughter. Open a saving account in her name and send the payment there. If your ex-partner/Gfriend comes looking for the money, well its there. When you daughter comes looking for you, its also there and it shows that you were really concerned.

ya I was thinking the same if daughter never tries to make contact I would send on a cheque for her 18th/21st birthday

Thanks
Noel

Klingon Hamlet · 25-10-2010 10:25pm

What your child's mother has done is called Parental Alienation. It is crueland selfish, and it will backfire. Your daughter will eventually come to realise that you love her. My heart goes out to you. I hope everything works out sooner rather than later.

caseyann · 25-10-2010 10:38pm

noel123ie wrote: »

Hi

Ive a 10 year old daughter who Ive paid support for since day 1.Ive had a history of having great difficulty getting visiting rights. I had to go to court to get access rights and even after this the childs mother would not bring child to ageeed meeting place or would arrive an hour after agreed meeting times or not at all(I do not live locally)

I have not seen my daughter for 4 years as he mother was telling my daughter this I will evil and turning her against me so I thought it was in the best interest of my daughter to cut contact.

The childs mother is now married and husband has taken on daughter as his own which is great.

Ive just noticed that weekly maintance payment have failed and only reason I can work out is that mother is after closing account

She has not contacted to ask why monies have not come through and has not passed on new account details.

I want to pass on monies owed and continue payment so I will write to the childs mother-she has changed mobile numbers and I want something in writing. If she does not reply Ill get my solicitor to write so I have something down to cover me legally.

Is this the best way to proceed?

Thanks
Noel

Tbh i think it is admirable and shows a very good character of you to be still wanting to help with your daughter.And if i was you perhaps you should legally follow through,and then give your daughter the option if she wants you around.
It sounds like they are cutting you out which is not right and makes me sick that she has gone that far.If you try ringing perhaps and do it amicably one last time and ask for access.If she doesnt then take it to another level.
It is beyond me why some women are so nasty and let children suffer and good fathers:(
Maybe contact someone you both know?
If you are good for your daughter every child should know their parents.
Then continue on? Could be him interfering out of jealousy of you from past.
good luck

The Corinthian · 26-10-2010 2:46pm

noel123ie wrote: »

I have not seen my daughter for 4 years as he mother was telling my daughter this I will evil and turning her against me so I thought it was in the best interest of my daughter to cut contact.

This happens, you can go to court, get a court order in your favour, and ultimately this is all worthless as it is never enforced. Eventually it can get too much for anyone, or worse still can cause more damage than good to continue trying.

As KH pointed out, the mother has fostered parental alienation - she slowly and deliberately brain washes the child and eventually the child begins to reflect the mother's views, which she in turn takes as justification / validation for keeping the child from the father.

I want to pass on monies owed and continue payment so I will write to the childs mother-she has changed mobile numbers and I want something in writing. If she does not reply Ill get my solicitor to write so I have something down to cover me legally.

Good idea, as even if she has closed the account and gone to ground, you are the one in breach of any court order for maintenance.

My guess is, if you are not a legal guardian, that she wants her new husband to formally adopt your child. She may even have already done so without informing you, although she has a legal obligation to 'consult' you (again not enforced).

I would keep and collate all correspondence and evidence of your efforts over the years and keep paying your maintenance into an account for your child. Eventually, I would contact her directly when she is old enough to have direct contact with you. Then explain what happened, let her know that you tried, show her the evidence of this, let her know that you're there and always have been there for her and let her make up her own mind.

Be prepaid to support her as your side of things and the evidence you'll provide may show that she's been lied to by her mother and this will no doubt be a difficult thing for her to deal with - another reason for waiting until she's older.

Also make provisions that this information and the money goes to her in the event of your death before that time.

Truth comes out in the end.

Joey the lips · 26-10-2010 2:53pm

I would not do much yet. There is ways to find out where she is. A solicitor or legal aid will tell you i am sure...

I would not send any money to your daughter if she does not make contact with you. If as you say she is being poisioned against you I would imagine that an 18th or 21st will end up in the bin. Write her a letter. Send it by registered post. Dont be critical of her mother. Just tell her that time has passed and you want to make contact and keep in touch.

Allow her the option of seeing you by agreeing to be in a set place. For example. I will be in McDonalds on sat morning 1st Dec at 11am type crap.

Explain to her a lot has happened and all is not how it seemed....Take it from there.

Just my opinion

metrovelvet · 26-10-2010 2:56pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

I would not do much yet. There is ways to find out where she is. A solicitor or legal aid will tell you i am sure...

I would not send any money to your daughter if she does not make contact with you. If as you say she is being poisioned against you I would imagine that an 18th or 21st will end up in the bin. Write her a letter. Send it by registered post. Dont be critical of her mother. Just tell her that time has passed and you want to make contact and keep in touch.

Allow her the option of seeing you by agreeing to be in a set place. For example. I will be in McDonalds on sat morning 1st Dec at 11am type crap.

Explain to her a lot has happened and all is not how it seemed....Take it from there.

Just my opinion

If the child is ten he may have a problem with this as adults and parents without custody agreements cant make invitations to minors without it being very very legally dodgy.

And if the account is closed or the money is rejected it could mean that there are plans for adoption or that they have all left the country.

caseyann · 26-10-2010 3:00pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

If the child is ten he may have a problem with this as adults and parents without custody agreements cant make invitations to minors without it being very very legally dodgy.

And if the account is closed or the money is rejected it could mean that there are plans for adoption or that they have all left the country.

And not knowing if your child is well or ill or something else terrible going on also.It is plain wrong for that mother to cut all contact of child and father.

Fittle · 26-10-2010 3:22pm

noel123ie wrote: »

I have not seen my daughter for 4 years as he mother was telling my daughter this I will evil and turning her against me so I thought it was in the best interest of my daughter to cut contact.

The childs mother is now married and husband has taken on daughter as his own which is great.
Noel

So perhaps I have a completely different perspective to others here - as I AM the mother of a child, in a similar situation.

My reading of this OP, is that YOU stopped contact because her mother was telling her you were evil? At what point did you think that was the right thing to do - ever thought you should stick around to let the child know you're not actually evil?

And then you say it's 'great' that another man has taken on the fathering of your child?? What's great about that??

It seems to me like your happy this happened, and just want to fulfill your legal obligation to the child. I suppose that's better than nothing, but I'm surprised at the number of posters who think all of the above is acceptable behaviour.

And 'the truth will come out in the end' ????

The truth is that you walked away, because your ex was telling your young child you were evil, and you decided not to defend yourself, and that you're happy someone else has taken her on.

Like I said, my child is in a similar situation. I'm (apparently) insane and he couldn't have 'dealt' with me, so chose to walk away too. He once told a judge he hopes I meet someone to help me raise 'the' (his) child

metrovelvet · 26-10-2010 3:23pm

caseyann wrote: »

And not knowing if your child is well or ill or something else terrible going on also.It is plain wrong for that mother to cut all contact of child and father.

Maybe so. It is certainly sad, and without this making ANY comment on the OP or his situation, there are sometimes reasons for it which are not obvious to the outsider.

metrovelvet · 26-10-2010 3:28pm

Fittle wrote: »

So perhaps I have a completely different perspective to others here - as I AM the mother of a child, in a similar situation.

My reading of this OP, is that YOU stopped contact because her mother was telling her you were evil? At what point did you think that was the right thing to do - ever thought you should stick around to let the child know you're not actually evil?

And then you say it's 'great' that another man has taken on the fathering of your child?? What's great about that??

It seems to me like your happy this happened, and just want to fulfill your legal obligation to the child. I suppose that's better than nothing, but I'm surprised at the number of posters who think all of the above is acceptable behaviour.

And 'the truth will come out in the end' ????

The truth is that you walked away, because your ex was telling your young child you were evil, and you decided not to defend yourself, and that you're happy someone else has taken her on.

Like I said, my child is in a similar situation. I'm (apparently) insane and he couldn't have 'dealt' with me, so chose to walk away too. He once told a judge he hopes I meet someone to help me raise 'the' (his) child

I dont buy this 'telling the child I was evil'. Any child of divorce, myself included, have heard any number of this back and forth badmouthing and you know what? It doesnt matter if you are around for your kids because they will SEE that you are not evil. Sounds like a cop out to me.

The Corinthian · 26-10-2010 3:43pm

Fittle wrote: »

The truth is that you walked away, because your ex was telling your young child you were evil, and you decided not to defend yourself, and that you're happy someone else has taken her on.

How can anyone defend themselves if they cannot even get access to the child? If anything they might send to the child gets intercepted and 'lost'? When any attempt to find an accommodation is blocked or sabotaged and even the courts cannot do anything?

If a mother wants to block a father, she can do it, regardless of whether this is merited or not.

Indeed, defending himself is questionable too, as this would inevitably mean defending himself against the mother with a young child, which would really make him no better than her.

Like I said, my child is in a similar situation. I'm (apparently) insane and he couldn't have 'dealt' with me, so chose to walk away too.

I have no idea if you're insane or not.

However, it is not uncommon for some custodial parents to actively obstruct any kind of agreement, access or involvement, make things as difficult as possible for the non-custodial parent and then eventually - when that parent realizes that they're beating their head against a brick wall - the custodial parent can gleefully announce abandonment. They made sure of it.

So it really comes down to the OP's particular situation. Maybe he's the bad guy, but it's also possible that he's not, that he did what he could, but when you play with an empty hand against a vindictive sociopath, there's only so much you can do.

Fittle · 26-10-2010 4:30pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

How can anyone defend themselves if they cannot even get access to the child? If anything they might send to the child gets intercepted and 'lost'? When any attempt to find an accommodation is blocked or sabotaged and even the courts cannot do anything?

If a mother wants to block a father, she can do it, regardless of whether this is merited or not.

Indeed, defending himself is questionable too, as this would inevitably mean defending himself against the mother with a young child, which would really make him no better than her.

I have no idea if you're insane or not.

However, it is not uncommon for some custodial parents to actively obstruct any kind of agreement, access or involvement, make things as difficult as possible for the non-custodial parent and then eventually - when that parent realizes that they're beating their head against a brick wall - the custodial parent can gleefully announce abandonment. They made sure of it.

So it really comes down to the OP's particular situation. Maybe he's the bad guy, but it's also possible that he's not, that he did what he could, but when you play with an empty hand against a vindictive sociopath, there's only so much you can do.

I'll give you my GP's number. No diagnosis of insanity just yet:rolleyes::rolleyes:

And from the OP's thread, where he clearly states that HE chose to cut contact and that he thinks its GREAT that another man is raising his child, you have diagnosed his ex as a vindictive sociopath. Interesting indeed.

What's the odds the maintenance the OP pays is court ordered also. I just don't buy the 'my ex says I'm evil, so for the sake of the child, I'm walking away'

Nevyn · 26-10-2010 4:35pm

Hang on, there is nothing wrong with expressing that it is good that his daughter is being accepted by her mother's new partner/husband, it is good that the child is cared for and that the mother's new parter is accepting and supporting her.

I don't think any parent would want their child living with a person who can not stand them and considers them to be a impediment or an inconvenience.

In this case he is trying to forfill his obligations and it is the mother who is freezing him out and trying to pretend he does not exist as he ruins her picture perfect ideal family.

At this stage I would be going via the courts and I would have been contacting socail workers.

metrovelvet · 26-10-2010 4:40pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

Hang on, there is nothing wrong with expressing that it is good that his daughter is being accepted by her mother's new partner/husband, it is good that the child is cared for and that the mother's new parter is accepting and supporting her.

I don't think any parent would want their child living with a person who can not stand them and considers them to be a impediment or an inconvenience.

In this case he is trying to forfill his obligations and it is the mother who is freezing him out and trying to pretend he does not exist as he ruins her picture perfect ideal family.

At this stage I would be going via the courts and I would have been contacting socail workers.

You would do that SIX years later?

OP has the family a way of contacting you? Maybe they moved or switched banks but cant locate you?

I wouldnt bring in all guns blazing with courts and social workers after you havent seen the kid in six years.

Nevyn · 26-10-2010 4:41pm

If he can't track or trace his child and his mother has gone to ground then yes I would.

Fittle · 26-10-2010 4:45pm

Why on earth would the OP contact social workers? He's happy that the child is being raised by another man, in another family situation.

His only issue here is that his maintenance is getting through - he said he wants something in writing from his ex, obviously should he end up back in court.

And he's only guessing that she has closed that bank account, he doesn't know this for sure - any chance you could contact your own bank and see what's happening your end - they could possibly tell you if the bank account is closed or not. Or perhaps it's a technical error.

metrovelvet · 26-10-2010 4:47pm

If it is a case of court ordered maintenance maybe go back to the court and explain what has happenned and ask the judge what you should do.

Fittle · 26-10-2010 4:48pm

noel123ie wrote: »

I want to pass on monies owed and continue payment so I will write to the childs mother-she has changed mobile numbers and I want something in writing. If she does not reply Ill get my solicitor to write so I have something down to cover me legally.

Thanks
Noel

And where did he say he cannot track or trace the child and the mother has gone to ground

She's changed her mobile - not emigrated to outer mongolia:rolleyes:

The Corinthian · 26-10-2010 4:56pm

Fittle wrote: »

And from the OP's thread, where he clearly states that HE chose to cut contact and that he thinks its GREAT that another man is raising his child, you have diagnosed his ex as a vindictive sociopath. Interesting indeed.

He chose to cut contact because not only was he getting nowhere, but it was causing more harm and good - a detail in his story you are conveniently omitting.

I also never diagnosed she was a vindictive sociopath - I was highlighting that we don't know and she could be, just as he could be the bad guy. We can only take his account at his word as he's the one looking for advice.

What's the odds the maintenance the OP pays is court ordered also. I just don't buy the 'my ex says I'm evil, so for the sake of the child, I'm walking away'

I know you don't buy it, but I pointed out how this can be the case and his situation could well qualify. Simply dismissing it is not good enough.

And unless we have evidence that he's being dishonest in his account there is no more reason to assume that he is than there is that your ex is correct about your sanity.

Nevyn · 26-10-2010 5:04pm

If I was the non custodial parent who was being denied access and frozen out and I was able to fight my corner you bet your arse I would be moving heaven and hell to be in contact with my child and to ensure that if my being in thier life was being blocked and that the maintance I was paying was being rejected in such a manner and the other parent had changed thier phone number with out saying anything then if I felt it was warrented I would be going via the courts and contacting socail workers if needed, and my child's school and dr who ever I could contact to find out about my child.

metrovelvet · 26-10-2010 5:06pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

If I was the non custodial parent who was being denied access and frozen out and I was able to fight my corner you bet your arse I would be moving heaven and hell to be in contact with my child and to ensure that if my being in thier life was being blocked and that the maintance I was paying was being rejected in such a manner and the other parent had changed thier phone number with out saying anything then if I felt it was warrented I would be going via the courts and contacting socail workers if needed, and my child's school and dr who ever I could contact to find out about my child.

But that's YOU. Some people aren't arsed.

Nevyn · 26-10-2010 5:13pm

Lots of people aren't me and there were times in my life I wasn't able or strong enough to fight my corner, and yes lots of people aren't me which is why the family courts needs to be reformed to allow parents equal say and equal access to thier own flesh and blood and to remove rights and access to unfit parents.

Parent should not be freezing out the other parent unless there has been a clear threath or danger to the child which as been proved to the courts.

metrovelvet · 26-10-2010 5:26pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

Lots of people aren't me and there were times in my life I wasn't able or strong enough to fight my corner, and yes lots of people aren't me which is why the family courts needs to be reformed to allow parents equal say and equal access to thier own flesh and blood and to remove rights and access to unfit parents.

Parent should not be freezing out the other parent unless there has been a clear threath or danger to the child which as been proved to the courts.

Your right, they shouldnt but we dont know that for certain here. No point in jumping to conclusions to make things worse. How stupid would he look if after a six year absence going in with courts and social workers to find its either a miscommunication or a technical glitch in a switch current account changeover.

Or maybe she gave up too.

Nevyn · 26-10-2010 5:39pm

There is no statute of limitations on having a relationship with your child.
William Shater has recently reconciled with his Daughter who is in her 40s as
due to the toxic nature of his divorce from her mother and the fall out afterwards he
wasn't able to be in her life.

Fittle · 26-10-2010 7:08pm

'And unless we have evidence that he's being dishonest in his account there is no more reason to assume that he is than there is that your ex is correct about your sanity.'

Clever use of words there.

The OP never said he was being 'denied access' or being 'frozen out'. He said his ex was often an hour late. And that she was calling him evil. And so, he CHOSE to walk away and that it's 'great' that another man is raising his child.

His concern in THIS post is that his maintenance is not being accepted, and so he is wondering if writing to his ex would be a way to keep a record of the fact that she's not accepting it, rather than him not giving it. This is no doubt, so that should the maintenance order go back to court at any point, he will have written proof that he was still willing to give it. This isn't about him wanting access to his child. He gave up on his child years ago.

The woman changed her mobile number and is now married, perhaps she has another child/ren. The OP knows where she lives, because he said he's writing to her. He hasn't been in contact with his daughter for SIX YEARS. And 6yrs later your advice, as the moderator of the parenting section Thaedyl, is to involve social workers and the courts????

And for the record, I agree wholeheartedly that the courts are a joke, and should at the very least, give both parents equal guardianship of a child at birth. This would be the best thing that could happen in this country, for fathers who want relationships with their children, and for children who want relationships with their fathers.

Nevyn · 26-10-2010 7:48pm

He didn't give up on the child he bowed out due to the pressure being put on him to do so by the mother of his child who was indulging in the tatics of Parental alienation

Parental alienation is a social dynamic, generally occurring due to divorce or separation, when a child expresses unjustified hatred or unreasonably strong dislike of one parent, making access by the rejected parent difficult or impossible. These feelings may be influenced by negative comments by the other parent and by the characteristics, such as lack of empathy and warmth, of the rejected parent.

Rather then distress the child he let there be distance that doesn't mean he doesn't want a realtionship with his child now nor does it mean that he will not look to renew his relationship with his child later when the child is less likely to be easily influeneced by the mother.

Being able to pay maintence means he can show that he did at least soemthing to support his child while he was refused access and visition by the mother.

noel123ie wrote: »

Hi

Ive a 10 year old daughter who Ive paid support for since day 1.Ive had a history of having great difficulty getting visiting rights. I had to go to court to get access rights and even after this the childs mother would not bring child to ageeed meeting place or would arrive an hour after agreed meeting times or not at all(I do not live locally)

I have not seen my daughter for 4 years as he mother was telling my daughter this I will evil and turning her against me so I thought it was in the best interest of my daughter to cut contact.

If I were the non custodial parent and I was unable to get in touch with the other parent and the bank account seemed closed and the phone number was changed, if needs be I would go as far as getting the garda to call to the family home in fear that they had left the country with out telling me.

Fittle · 26-10-2010 7:52pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

He didn't give up on the child he bowed out due to the pressure being put on him to do so by the mother of his child who was indulging in the tatics of Parental alienation

Rather then distress the child he let there be distance that doesn't mean he doesn't want a realtionship with his child now nor does it mean that he will not look to renew his relationship with his child later when the child is less likely to be easily influeneced by the mother.

Being able to pay maintence means he can show that he did at least soemthing to support his child while he was refused access and visition by the mother.

If I were the non custodial parent and I was unable to get in touch with the other parent and the bank account seemed closed and the phone number was changed, if needs be I would go as far as getting the garda to call to the family home in fear that they had left the country with out telling me.

She indulged in Parental Alienation? Another americanism to make it easy for fathers to abandon their chilren - that's the best I've heard yet:rolleyes::rolleyes:

How do you know he didn't want to distress the child? If he actually cared about the child, his instinct would have been to stick around to potentially protect her from her mother who was doing what she was doing.

And being able to pay maintenance etc - he was ordered by a judge to pay maintenance!!

Nevyn · 26-10-2010 8:07pm

Fittle wrote: »

She indulged in Parental Alienation? Another americanism to make it easy for fathers to abandon their chilren - that's the best I've heard yet:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I have seen it used on mother and fathers alike by the custodial parent,
it is something I consider utterly abhorrent.

Fittle wrote: »

How do you know he didn't want to distress the child? If he actually cared about the child, his instinct would have been to stick around to potentially protect her from her mother who was doing what she was doing.

Any how do you know the mother is not just a thunderous controlling bitch who wants to white wash him out of his child's life now she has a husband and just wants to play happy families with the picture perfect family rather then face up to her mistakes and responsibilities like an adult?

Fittle wrote: »

If he actually cared about the child, his instinct would have been to stick around to potentially protect her from her mother who was doing what she was doing.

It is very, very hard to do when there is that level of manipulation and machinations going on. If the visitation is bringing out the worse in the mother as she can not be an adult for the sake of the child then I can understand rather then making the child's life harder that the other parent would back off.

I have seen child who have had the custodial parent be in a foul mood all day and snapping at the child and being utterly unreasonable as the child has to see the other parent, working the child up into a right state so the child associates that stress and upset with the other parent and the same being done when the child came home from the visitation the custodial parent would be in such a mood that it got to the stage where the impact was making the child miserable.

When this has happened I have seen the non custodial parent back away as the custodial parent's emotional and lack of awareness and control due to their anger/resentment of the other parent made them irrational when it came to anything to do with the other parent.

Personally I think that any custodial parent who mentally and emotional abuses the child in such a manner should not have custody, neither should any parent who refuses visitation cos they can't handle it should got to counselling and sort them selves out rather then take it out on the child by denying them access to their father/mother.

Fittle wrote: »

And being able to pay maintenance etc - he was ordered by a judge to pay maintenance!!

Plenty of parents are, it's how maintenance orders work, that does not mean that parents who have a maintenance order made out against them are reluctant to pay it in the first place.

noel123ie if you know who the account was with and can ring the branch and find out what is the status of the account, if it's closed then I would suggest starting with solicitor letters and then proceeding with what ever other steps you need to take to find out the where about of your child.

Fittle · 26-10-2010 8:16pm

Ok thaedyl, I've a couple of questions for you.

How many women do you personally know who are parenting alone with no input from the father? (my answer to this is 4, including myself - and of those 3, I'd say they each know another two, so that's about 10 ).

My next question is how many of these women are 'thunderous controlling bitches who want to white wash the father out of the child's life now that she has a husband and just wants to play happy families with the picture perfect family rather then face up to her mistakes and responsibilities like an adult?'.

My answer is none. None of the ten women that I know (some by default) are thunderous controlling bitches. All of the ten women I know want what's best for their child and at the start of the pregnancy or the childs life, WANTED the father of their child involved in the childs life.

metrovelvet · 26-10-2010 8:19pm

Do you not consider that a non custodial can use all sorts of manipulations, threats and blackmail to stress out a custodial parent in the first place? Everything you say about a custodial parent can apply to a non custodial parent too.

Seriously, your advice to call in courts and social workers without more information is unbalanced and you should rethink it.

caseyann · 26-10-2010 8:29pm

Fittle wrote: »

Ok thaedyl, I've a couple of questions for you.

How many women do you personally know who are parenting alone with no input from the father? (my answer to this is 4, including myself - and of those 3, I'd say they each know another two, so that's about 10 ).

My next question is how many of these women are 'thunderous controlling bitches who want to white wash the father out of the child's life now that she has a husband and just wants to play happy families with the picture perfect family rather then face up to her mistakes and responsibilities like an adult?'.

My answer is none. None of the ten women that I know (some by default) are thunderous controlling bitches. All of the ten women I know want what's best for their child and at the start of the pregnancy or the childs life, WANTED the father of their child involved in the childs life.

As a woman i can tell you i know at least five women who are manipultive and use the child as a emotional weapon.Be it if the ex has moved on with someone new to not allowing access or bad mouthing the father in front of the child.
I even know some girls who tell the guy if not with them they will never see that child again.
It works in so many ways.
From this case she has shown imo of what op has said malicious intent to turn a child against the father and to block him from even knowing if the child is healthy or safe.
While there is men who dont partake and are lazy useless bums so is there mothers who are just as bad.
And we are giving advice to the man who wishes to give his child something,outside of that we cant assume anything.

Nevyn · 26-10-2010 8:30pm

I am glad that you only know such good women Fittle.

I know of lots of women who have reared thier child without a father, my cousin who grew up with me and my sibling was such a child so I know what that is like and how hard it can be but I know of 5 women who have done thier utmost to make life for the father of their children hell because the see them as thier ex who they are still angry with rather then just as the co parent.

And some of them will give lip service to wanting the father in their kids life, yes but only wanting it on extremely limited ways and in ways that they can control to the smallest iota and if the other parent doesn't complies then there are reasons and excuses, and emotional blackmail until the other parent despairs and gives up, and then they blame the non custodial parent for not trying.

Given in this case noel123ie was cut out of his child's life and made to feel that it was for the best, and there is a new father figure who has married the mother and the phone number has been changed and the bank account is defunct it looks like they have left the country or are organising it so that the mother can say in court there has been no contact or payment from the father to say that he has no intrest so that her husband can adopt the child.

Give this and lack of response from the custodial parent, I would be pulling out all the stops to find out what the hell is going on.

Both parents can act like utter arsebags in the years after a break up/separation but we all hopefully grow and mature and learn to be civil for the sake of our children.

caseyann · 26-10-2010 8:36pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

I am glad that you only know such good women Fittle.

I know of lots of women who have reared thier child without a father, my cousin who grew up with me and my sibling was such a child so I know what that is like and how hard it can be but I know of 5 women who have done thier utmost to make life for the father of their children hell because the see them as thier ex who they are still angry with rather then just as the co parent.

And some of them will give lip service to wanting the father in their kids life, yes but only wanting it on extremely limited ways and in ways that they can control to the smallest iota and if the other parent doesn't complies then there are reasons and excuses, and emotional blackmail until the other parent despairs and gives up, and then they blame the non custodial parent for not trying.

Given in this case noel123ie was cut out of his child's life and made to feel that it was for the best, and there is a new father figure who has married the mother and the phone number has been changed and the bank account is defunct it looks like they have left the country or are organising it so that the mother can say in court there has been no contact or payment from the father to say that he has no intrest so that her husband can adopt the child.

Give this and lack of response from the custodial parent, I would be pulling out all the stops to find out what the hell is going on.

Both parents can act like utter arsebags in the years after a break up/separation but we all hopefully grow and mature and learn to be civil for the sake of our children.

Totally agree with you,if he didnt give a toss he would be on his way and not on here asking for advice,and as i see it trying to do it as diplomatically as he can.

metrovelvet · 26-10-2010 8:47pm

Fittle wrote: »

She indulged in Parental Alienation? Another americanism to make it easy for fathers to abandon their chilren - that's the best I've heard yet:rolleyes::rolleyes:

How do you know he didn't want to distress the child? If he actually cared about the child, his instinct would have been to stick around to potentially protect her from her mother who was doing what she was doing.

And being able to pay maintenance etc - he was ordered by a judge to pay maintenance!!

http://batteredmomslosecustody.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/falsely-accused-of-parental-alienation/

Parental alienation is also being abused in the courts. It's become a handy little weapon for abusive parents.

From the above link:

Expert Dr. Robert Geffner: Courts Under the Thrall of Dangerous “Parental Alienation Syndrome” Myth Award Custody to Violent, Abusive ParentsChild abuse experts Dr. Robert Geffner warns that “Parental Alienation Syndrome” (PAS) is junk science – a psychiatric “disorder” that isn’t recognized by any mental health or medical association, isn’t supported by research, and hasn’t even been published in established peer-reviewed professional journals. But PAS has been used by the courts to award sole custody of hundreds of children to the parents accused of sexually or physically abusing them.Worse is a process that turns justice on its head by demonizing the parent who is trying to protect their child and has made statements about them being abused. “Many professionals connected with the courts are operating under the influence of and acting on a dangerous myth. PAS is fictitious, but the life-long damage it has inflicted on countless children is only too real,” Geffner says. Both children who are exposed to intimate partner violence and those who are physically or sexually abused often are affected throughout their life span if the abuse is not recognized and treated. Many adults experience symptoms ranging from anxiety, sleeplessness, and panic attacks to a recurrent inability to trust other adults and form stable relationships but don’t connect those problems to their childhood history of abuse.

And there are countless studies done on this.

Fittle · 26-10-2010 9:00pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

I am glad that you only know such good women Fittle.

Given in this case noel123ie was cut out of his child's life and made to feel that it was for the best, and there is a new father figure who has married the mother and the phone number has been changed and the bank account is defunct it looks like they have left the country or are organising it so that the mother can say in court there has been no contact or payment from the father to say that he has no intrest so that her husband can adopt the child.
.

He wasn't cut out of his child life and made to feel that it was for the best. He never said that - he said he chose to walk.

She changed her mobile number (Ive done that bout four times in the past four years) and perhaps the maintenance issue is a technical issue with the bank. The OP doesn't say how long it's been going on - why on gods earth would you assume they have left the country and are considering adopting his child, because she has changed her number??? Assumption much

It's been six years. The child was four when he last saw her. She's now ten. Do you honestly expect the childs mother to hang around in the vain hope that her daughters father might grow a pair after six years - when she can offer her daughter what appears to be, another family set-up? I'm not saying the husband should or could, become the childs 'new daddy' but a male role model can only be a good thing, when her real father abandoned her six years ago.

Six years ago.

metrovelvet · 26-10-2010 9:23pm

I think in general the advice on this thread has been both abominable and dangerous.

To advocate calling the police and the social workers after a six year absence without having all the FACTS is so outrageous it's hard to believe what I am reading.

To advocate re-entering a child's live like a bomb after a six year absence with no advice on the shock and effect this could have on her and the potential fallout if the OP walks out again on her because of whatever reason, is callous and irresponsible advice.

To assume and accuse parental alienation, also to reinforce a PURE FANTASY about the case at hand, without knowing the FACTS, is also irresponsible, unjust, prejudicial, and just plain cuckoo.

*TO add you might be right, but you could just as easily be VERY WRONG.

Nevyn · 26-10-2010 10:08pm

Ladies can ye not get the basic facts right?

noel123ie wrote: »

I have not seen my daughter for 4 years as the mother was telling my daughter this I will evil and turning her against me so I thought it was in the best interest of my daughter to cut contact.

Noel again I suggest to start with a solicitor and a registered letter, if that comes back return to sender then do what you have to to track your child down.

Gordon · 26-10-2010 11:24pm

Fittle wrote: »

Do you honestly expect the childs mother to hang around in the vain hope that her daughters father might grow a pair after six four years - when she can offer her daughter what appears to be, another family set-up?

I don't think that point has been argued to the contrary, but I would expect the parent that looks after the child to forward any change of contact details to the other parent that is paying child support. I would expect change of contact details from either party to be forwarded to the other party, no matter how many times one has to change their telephone number in a year. Adult parents need to inform each other of new contact details so that they do not make a situation where the child loses means of contact with the other parent.

It is extremely disheartening to see that there apparently comes a point in time (4 years) that it becomes acceptable for one parent to be completely cut off from their child no matter what the circumstances (bar danger and harm obviously). The poor wee child, one day they'll get to an age where fault turns into blame, and the wild animal of blame takes no prisoners. It'll just end up with the wee one being hurt. And the parents, but in fairness, the parents caused this mess, not the child, so that's their problem to sort out in private. It's not the childs fault.

Good luck OP, I hope it works out for you all.

Fittle · 27-10-2010 6:51am

Thaedydal wrote: »

Ladies can ye not get the basic facts right?

Noel again I suggest to start with a solicitor and a registered letter, if that comes back return to sender then do what you have to to track your child down.

Right so I got the length of years wrong. But 4yrs, 6yrs, doesn't make much of a difference to a young child.

And I don't know why you continue to advise the OP on an issue he didn't ask about? He didn't ask how he can track down his child.
He asked if he should keep a record of the fact that his maintenance is being refused. That's what he's interested in.

And I agree with gordon - none of this is the childs fault but I imagine the mother assumes that having not had contact in 4yrs, he's just not interested, so why would she advise him of her number number?

The Corinthian · 27-10-2010 7:02am

Fittle wrote: »

Clever use of words there.

And I suppose that because it is clever it's not true?

The OP never said he was being 'denied access' or being 'frozen out'. He said his ex was often an hour late. And that she was calling him evil. And so, he CHOSE to walk away and that it's 'great' that another man is raising his child.

You forgot to mention that he also said that she would also not simply arrive late, but not at all. Another interesting selective rendition of his account.

When a parent becomes so obstructive, that regular access is impossible (maybe she'll turn up and maybe not, or maybe she'll turn up late so as to limit the access period), when she actively indoctrinates the child into believing that the other parent is 'evil' so that the child ends up rejecting them, then that is an active strategy of denying access and freezing out.

Continuing access in such a situation becomes difficult to impossible and even arguably no longer in the child's interest, as regularity and frequency is irrevocably destroyed. This is before one considers the social, psychological and financial toll of an endless and losing battle, where even successful court orders are ignored because the law never bothers to enforce them.

So consider yourself in a father's shoes in such a situation: The law is of no use. Your access is limited or negligible and potentially more disruptive than beneficial. The constant conflict (where you have no hope of winning) is destroying any chance at normality in your life - or even taking its toll on your health.

You're banging your head against a brick wall. You're at this stage causing more harm than good. There is no solution. What would you do in such a situation?

His concern in THIS post is that his maintenance is not being accepted, and so he is wondering if writing to his ex would be a way to keep a record of the fact that she's not accepting it, rather than him not giving it.

This is no doubt, so that should the maintenance order go back to court at any point, he will have written proof that he was still willing to give it. This isn't about him wanting access to his child. He gave up on his child years ago.

That is a perfectly rational concern. To begin with there are legal implications, because he is liable for paying, even if she obstructs payment. Secondly, having been actively obstructed from any involvement in his child's life, maintenance becomes the only way he can demonstrate parental responsibility - to show that he does care, despite maternal propaganda to the contrary, because some day he is likely to have to face his child and explain his side of his story.

Not all claims of parental alienation are real and it can be used as an excuse by some non-custodial parents. However, it does occur and I'm more than a little shocked to see you dismiss it as simply an Americanism or even your anecdotal evidence that implies that mothers are never the bad guys.

The woman changed her mobile number and is now married, perhaps she has another child/ren. The OP knows where she lives, because he said he's writing to her. He hasn't been in contact with his daughter for SIX YEARS. And 6yrs later your advice, as the moderator of the parenting section Thaedyl, is to involve social workers and the courts????

Four years (as Thaed already pointed out). The child is ten, which means that for the first six years he fought to maintain access. Again you seem to wish to only view the facts in a skewed and negative light and only cited the empty part of the glass.

Now, given this I'm cynical enough to also feel that his story does not completely add up - or more correctly that there have been important omissions. This is because both parents in these situations will often seek to portray themselves as the victims rather than admit that they may have been in any way responsible for the situation they find themselves in.

However here, the OP has sought advice and unless it becomes obvious that he is telling porkies (and he's actually not said enough to warrant that), we should take him at his word.

Or we could just jump down his throat, presume he's the bad guy and lying about his situation. If that's the case, it's probably valid to question your own claims too.

And for the record, I agree wholeheartedly that the courts are a joke, and should at the very least, give both parents equal guardianship of a child at birth. This would be the best thing that could happen in this country, for fathers who want relationships with their children, and for children who want relationships with their fathers.

Again, it comes down to enforcement. Guardianship does not guarantee access, and is in fact a separate matter, so his situation would not have changed. And after a four year absence, he probably would have lost it too.

metrovelvet · 27-10-2010 7:30am

Thaedydal wrote: »

Ladies can ye not get the basic facts right?

.

Even four years... going in guns blazing with cops and social workers without exploring all the facts could make OP look very very stupid, obstructive, abusive, and wasting state resources.

I agree about the regsitered letter though, at least its a start and shows proof of attempting to reach out and find out what is going on.

metrovelvet · 27-10-2010 7:35am

Gordon wrote: »

I don't think that point has been argued to the contrary, but I would expect the parent that looks after the child to forward any change of contact details to the other parent that is paying child support. I would expect change of contact details from either party to be forwarded to the other party, no matter how many times one has to change their telephone number in a year. Adult parents need to inform each other of new contact details so that they do not make a situation where the child loses means of contact with the other parent.

It is extremely disheartening to see that there apparently comes a point in time (4 years) that it becomes acceptable for one parent to be completely cut off from their child no matter what the circumstances (bar danger and harm obviously). The poor wee child, one day they'll get to an age where fault turns into blame, and the wild animal of blame takes no prisoners. It'll just end up with the wee one being hurt. And the parents, but in fairness, the parents caused this mess, not the child, so that's their problem to sort out in private. It's not the childs fault.

Good luck OP, I hope it works out for you all.

Yes you would assume this but at the same time she might think he doesn't care or is indifferent and may have written him off.

Especially if the maintenance is court ordered and hasnt been adjusted in four years it might demonstrate he is fulfilling a legal obligation and that is all he is doing to cover his butt.

Again, without the facts, this is pure speculation but its important to be open to all possibilities before people start bringing out hanging devices and and start a witch hunt in search for prosecution.

Do we know that OP has kept his contact details up for example? We assume he has but we dont know that yet.

Fittle · 27-10-2010 7:41am

Nowhere did I say that mothers are never the bad guys. Of course I accept that there are women out there who would rather their ex partners did not see their children. But we don't know that this woman is one of them.

I am purely dealing with this situation, in this post, where the poster walked away from the responsibility of being a father to his child. This post.
How can I speak for all mothers? I said I don't know any mothers personally who are 'thunderous controlling bitches' or 'vindictive sociopaths'. And I don't, that's the truth. any of the mothers I know personally, who are in similar situations, have done as much as they possibly can to facilitate the absent father.

And the OP hasn't come back here, to inform us of any further details of his story, so we are all surmising his situation anyway. You don't know, no more than I do, that he fought for access for all of those six years? Yes, he said she sometimes didn't turn up - we've no idea what age the child was when this happened - he said he doesn't live local. Ever thought perhaps she was up all night with a screaming toddler and couldn't get her act together the next morning to drive x miles for his access??? There were times I couldn't get out the door when my (then) 18month old was awake through the nite - times I'd have to borrow milk from a neighbour because I couldn't physically get to a shop due to my own exhaustion. These things do happen.

There were times I would have handed my toddler over to a stranger to get a break from him....(almost;)) so just because the OP says she didn't show for access, does not mean she was a sociopath or a bitch for that matter.

But no doubt you'll also question that, the way you continue to question my sanity:rolleyes:

The Corinthian · 27-10-2010 8:11am

Fittle wrote: »

Nowhere did I say that mothers are never the bad guys.

Actually you did:

Fittle wrote: »

My next question is how many of these women are 'thunderous controlling bitches who want to white wash the father out of the child's life now that she has a husband and just wants to play happy families with the picture perfect family rather then face up to her mistakes and responsibilities like an adult?'.

My answer is none. None of the ten women that I know (some by default) are thunderous controlling bitches. All of the ten women I know want what's best for their child and at the start of the pregnancy or the childs life, WANTED the father of their child involved in the childs life.

As I said, the anecdotal evidence you put forward points to that - you were pretty clear cut.

Of course I accept that there are women out there who would rather their ex partners did not see their children. But we don't know that this woman is one of them.

Yet you are more than happy to presume that the OP is the one telling porkies? You presume he didn't fight for those six years. You presume that his ex was not obstructive and he had no good reason to give up.

I said I don't know any mothers personally who are 'thunderous controlling bitches' or 'vindictive sociopaths'. And I don't, that's the truth. any of the mothers I know personally, who are in similar situations, have done as much as they possibly can to facilitate the absent father.

Certainly, but the problem is that even the vindictive sociopaths will claim that they have done as much as they possibly can to facilitate the absent father, when in reality they only done the bare minimum so that they can save face, while acting in a calculated fashion to sabotage that same facilitation.

And how would you know the difference? Chances are you only get an incomplete picture of what has happened. You only get to hear one side of the story, which has been carefully edited to elicit validation for their actions.

And naturally the opposite occurs too. But I accept that it does, while by you pronouncing that you've never come across it, that even the term parental alienation is a cliche, you imply that it never happens.

And the OP hasn't come back here, to inform us of any further details of his story, so we are all surmising his situation anyway. You don't know, no more than I do, that he fought for access for all of those six years? Yes, he said she sometimes didn't turn up - we've no idea what age the child was when this happened - he said he doesn't live local. Ever thought perhaps she was up all night with a screaming toddler and couldn't get her act together the next morning to drive x miles for his access???

You're making excuses now. That these things happen is par for the course, but what the OP claimed was a concerted campaign of disruption to access by the mother.

Ultimately, you are viewing the OP's (and everyone else's) situation through the prism of your own personal one. I've repeatedly pointed out that he may not be telling the full truth and that there are some parts of his story that don't fully add up. You have made no such concession from your own perspective. He's the bad guy. End of story. So, who is being more objective?

All of which returns me to my question of you, in my last post:

The Corinthian wrote: »

So consider yourself in a father's shoes in such a situation: The law is of no use. Your access is limited or negligible and potentially more disruptive than beneficial. The constant conflict (where you have no hope of winning) is destroying any chance at normality in your life - or even taking its toll on your health.

You're banging your head against a brick wall. You're at this stage causing more harm than good. There is no solution. What would you do in such a situation?

Try to put yourself in those shoes, rather than your own. What would you do?

But no doubt you'll also question that, the way you continue to question my sanity:rolleyes:

Why can't I question your points? Is that not allowed?

And you can hardly accuse someone else of being disingenuous here and then get upset is someone might suggest the same of you.

Butterflylove · 27-10-2010 8:20am

Noel

I can totally understand why you would walk away,

I have seen this from both sides both my sister and my brother are single parents,

My sister had awful trouble with my nieces father he would go out of his way to cause fights and arguments and put my niece in positions where she was been made chose sides he was a horrid man brought her to pubs etc on their 'weekends' together, he only took her because he got a council flat for her, he tried to take her from my sister as he said with delight 'so I can get more money' in the end after years of battles my niece decided to cut contact her own choice she was 6 she couldn't deal with the fighting etc anymore she hasn't heard from her dad since she is now 12, my sister still sends him a photo of her every year and is in contact with his own sister

Some men just don't care,

Then there's my brother, best father to his son you could ever ask for would do anything for him, my brothers ex was young 19 when she fell pregnant they played happy families for two years when she freaked out broke up with my brother because 'she wanted to live her life' she cut our my brother and told him he couldn't see his child he fought tooth and nail but could see the stress it was causing his child he backed off waiting for his to calm down and come to her senses instead she went off to Spain met a waiter and 'fell in love' a month later she was flying back to marry this waiter, long story short he left her once he got his visa and she was pregnant by him she went off completely, she would disappear for days yet when my brother called guards or when it was brought to court nothing was done my brother saw his son once a week if he was lucky, soon after she died and my brother had to fight the courts to have custody of his own son they wanted to place him into care,

It can happen from both sides and rather then cause more hurt and pain for a child some take a step back and some don't and cause allot of hurt and pain that the child ends up having to make a tough decision.

Fittle · 27-10-2010 9:10am

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually you did:

As I said, the anecdotal evidence you put forward points to that - you were pretty clear cut.

Yet you are more than happy to presume that the OP is the one telling porkies? You presume he didn't fight for those six years. You presume that his ex was not obstructive and he had no good reason to give up.

Certainly, but the problem is that even the vindictive sociopaths will claim that they have done as much as they possibly can to facilitate the absent father, when in reality they only done the bare minimum so that they can save face, while acting in a calculated fashion to sabotage that same facilitation.

And how would you know the difference? Chances are you only get an incomplete picture of what has happened. You only get to hear one side of the story, which has been carefully edited to elicit validation for their actions.

And naturally the opposite occurs too. But I accept that it does, while by you pronouncing that you've never come across it, that even the term parental alienation is a cliche, you imply that it never happens.

You're making excuses now. That these things happen is par for the course, but what the OP claimed was a concerted campaign of disruption to access by the mother.

Ultimately, you are viewing the OP's (and everyone else's) situation through the prism of your own personal one. I've repeatedly pointed out that he may not be telling the full truth and that there are some parts of his story that don't fully add up. You have made no such concession from your own perspective. He's the bad guy. End of story. So, who is being more objective?

All of which returns me to my question of you, in my last post:

Try to put yourself in those shoes, rather than your own. What would you do?

Why can't I question your points? Is that not allowed?

And you can hardly accuse someone else of being disingenuous here and then get upset is someone might suggest the same of you.

Whatever. I can't win with you - whatever I say, you come back and shoot me down so I'm done here. But for the record - I did NOT say that all mothers are perfect - I said that the mothers I KNOW do what they can to facilitate the absent parent. And I'm not viewing the Op's and everyone else's situation through my own prism, but I've been here with you before and you will continue to rant on about this point, and copy and paste everything I say and rip it apart, so what's the point?

Cheerio.

The Corinthian · 27-10-2010 9:28am

Fittle wrote: »

Whatever. I can't win with you - whatever I say, you come back and shoot me down so I'm done here. But for the record - I did NOT say that all mothers are perfect - I said that the mothers I KNOW do what they can to facilitate the absent parent. And I'm not viewing the Op's and everyone else's situation through my own prism, but I've been here with you before and you will continue to rant on about this point, and copy and paste everything I say and rip it apart, so what's the point?

Cheerio.

Look, you entered this discussion attacking the OP, giving only examples of where the fathers are at fault and even dismissing that parental alienation is ever promoted by mothers. You may have conceded that mothers are not perfect, but you've never suggested that they can sometimes actively obstruct a father's relationship with his child.

All I've done is disagree and pointed out where what you're saying is flawed and even blatantly biased. I've even gone so far as to ask you to put yourself in the shoes of a father in such a situation, to ask yourself what you would do and you've ignored this.

Sometimes people "can't win" an argument simply because they're wrong, and walking away from it is little more than an admission that they're not really interested in having their opinion questioned.

If that's the case with you, then I would be tempted to sympathize a little with your ex.

Child Support-Please read

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