2012 4 Races for 4 PBs

outforarun

Been lurking since the start of the year. I really enjoy following the training logs here, they’re a great source of information and motivation. So it’s time to try give something back.

I started running proper this year and entered my first ever races. I ran four races in total:

Cork City Marathon 2010 (3:51)
I more or less followed Hal Higdon’s Intermediate I plan for this my first ever race. I was aiming for a 3:45 but for a whole variety of reasons I came up short by 6 mins: I skipped just a few sessions too many during training, I ran my long runs too fast, I didn’t run any long runs on the road, I started the marathon too fast, the weather on the day didn’t help, I never really recovered from the wind and rain around the estuary.
The last 6 miles were not a lot of fun. All the same I was delighted to finish and happy to have at got home under 4 hours. And less than 24 hours later I was planning what would be my next race. I’d got the bug.

Frank Duffy 10 Mile (1:17)
Since the marathon I’d bought a Garmin and cobbled together a training plan for the summer. I was aiming for 7:45/m pace to finish with a 1:17. I was pleased with my final time but not pleased with how I ran. Hared off far too fast over the first two miles (7:13, 7:13), slowed down but not enough over the next few miles and then hit the hills; or rather the hills hit me, hard, an 8:35 on mile 9. Managed to recover with a final mile of 7:41, but for the second race in a row I did not enjoy the closing section and finished uncomfortably.

Dublin Half Marathon (1:40)
My most enjoyable race to date. I learned two things: one, do not start too fast and two you can achieve a lot with just 4 weeks training. I was aiming again for 7:45/m for a 1:41 finish. For the first 7 miles I really concentrated on holding back, I’d let the Chesterfield descents gain a few seconds but without increasing my effort. I didn’t worry about an 8:05 on mile 8, and I felt really good at the 10 mile point (such a change from 4 weeks ago). I was overtaking loads of people going up Military Hill. I managed to finish with a 6:59 mile 13 and a big smile on my face. Brilliant. It is so so much more enjoyable and effective to pace cautiously at the start and then be able to up the pace near the end. Buzzed for days after this one.

BHAA Cork to Cobh 15 Mile (1:56)
Started to have crazy ideas of trying for a 8:00/m Cork Marathon in 2011. Thought to myself well first let’s see how I manage at 7:5X/m over the 15 miles from Cork to Cobh. Managed fine. Didn’t pace myself as steadily as I would have liked, too many 7:3Xs and 7:4Xs, felt tired alright on the ascent around mile 12, but never doubted that I’d manage a 7:5X average pace. In the end I managed a 7:48 average. In terms of atmosphere this was easily my favourite of all 4 races and the weather was just perfect.

And so for 2011, the plan now is to avoid injury and try start all four races again in 2011. And PB all four. And based on how I felt at Cork to Cobh I cannot resist now trying for an 8:00/m, sub 3:30 marathon in Cork in June. If I succeed it’ll be a massive 20+ minutes off my 2010 time. If the worse happens and I really blow-up in the 2011 version hopefully I’ll still manage to PB. I plan on really following Higdon’s Intermediate II.

I haven't run since Cobh, that's 3 weeks to the day. I wanted to rest-up my right-knee which was not too happy with the summer's work. Feels ok again and hopefully it'll hold up when I get back on the road tomorrow. 8 miles planned at 8:3X pace. Plan for the next 12 weeks is to try get 4 runs in every week, 2 short (3-5 miles) steady runs, 1 medium to long (8-15 miles) and one speed session.

Good luck to all running DCM tomorrow.

rainbow kirby

Best of luck with your goals for next year

xebec

Best of luck with the log. I'll be reading earnestly - you're a few minutes ahead of me at all the distances so will be good to have someone to aim for!

What's the plan for between now and Cork? Going to get a few halfs in over the winter/new year?

outforarun

Thanks for the welcome Rainbow Kirby and Xebec.

Xebec, not planning on any races between now and the New Year. All things going well there'll be a new addition to the nest come December so I'll be happy with just getting my 4 runs a week in. I might look out for a 5 miler or 10K around Mid January. Really the plan for the next twelve weeks is to maintain a decent level of fitness and also to work on bringing down my short distance (5 mile) speed. Not by a lot but I'd hope to run a 7:1X 5 mile come January, be it in training or in a race. I know there's a 5 miler in Raheny at the end of January, but I want to take a break of about 10 days before starting proper training for Cork on 1st February. Raheny is on the 30th I think so it might just ruin that break. I'll see closer to the date, could be tempted all the same.

Gave the right-knee a good work-out today. Cycled over to the 6 mile mark this morning. Must remember to buy gloves for the winter!!! Then cycled across town to the 20 mile mark to cheer people on some more. Nice and toasted there. Then later in the afternoon put on my runners for the first time since Cork 2 Cobh. And went for a nice and handy 8 miles back in Phoenix. Knee was grand. And the run felt as effortless as I'd hoped it would after a 3 week break.

Target: 8M @ 8:32

M1 8:28
M2 8:30
M3 8:29
M4 8:37
M5 8:34
M6 8:31
M7 8:31
M8 8:31

AVG 8:31
[Total Distance 8.08M at 8:31]

outforarun

that target time should have read 8:3X, not 8:32 :rolleyes:

outforarun

Second day back on the road and this evening I could feel the 3 week break more so than yesterday. Just 4 miles planned and after only 200 yards I could feel both calves were quite stiff. Took a good mile before they felt loosened up. On mile three my right knee gave a twinge or two, no pain, but it just reminded me that is was there. Guess that the legs hoped that yesterday's run was a one-off. Unseasonably warm tonight, although I ran with a light hi-vis vest for the first time so that probably kept some heat in. I'll take a break tomorrow, repeat tonight's session on Thursday before my first speed session on Friday, 800m intervals planned for Friday morning.

Tonight's details:
Target: 4M @ 8:1X

M1 8:09
M2 8:18
M3 8:13
M4 8:02

AVG 8:11
[Total Distance 4.30M at 8:12]

outforarun

Paced poorly last night. Wanted to hit 8:1X. First mile I went too fast at 7:46, then was not able to really find a steady pace after that. My usual road route is a 1.6 mile loop and it contains a few uphills and downhills so it's not easy anyway to find a steady pace.

There's always something. An unexpected medical mishap means I'll be off the road for about another week. Frustrating after being 3 weeks out (and after just getting a log going). So today's planned 800m intervals are shelved.

Last night's details:
Target: 4M @ 8:1X

M1 7:46
M2 8:19
M3 8:08
M4 8:25

AVG 8:09
[Total Distance 4.39M at 8:08]

kennyb3

Definitely have a look at other logs and training plans, dont run hard every day, give yourself some slow easy runs and recovery runs to avoid injury. seems like you are trying to hit 8m/m most days.

Hard days hard, easy days easy.

outforarun

kennyb3 wrote: »

, dont run hard every day, give yourself some slow easy runs and recovery runs to avoid injury. seems like you are trying to hit 8m/m most days.

Hard days hard, easy days easy.

Thanks kennyb3, think is right now running hard for me is running at say 7:3X, the 8 miles I ran on Monday where at 8:3X and really that felt very slow and pretty much effortless. My idea to keep me ticking over for the winter is one longish slow run 8:3X, 2 short steady runs at 8:1X and one speed session where I'll either do intervals or run a fast 5 miler at say 7:3X. 8:1X doesn't feel hard at all tbh, the hard part if anything was slowing down! And thankfully my right knee feels pretty much back to its best.

kennyb3

Totally get what your saying but if PMP is 8 m/m, and you are running your shorter miles just over this and your long one at just 30 seconds over this seems a bit fast. Either your being too easy with that pmp or your doing most of your miles at PMP or just slightly over.

Even based on your recent half of 1.40, mcmillan would have you doing long ones at 9m/m if you did them in the middle of his range (you are doing them right on the fast side). 30 seconds a mile quicker is a good chunk

anyway just trying to help you avoid the mistakes i made.

outforarun

kennyb3 wrote: »

if PMP is 8 m/m, and you are running your shorter miles just over this and your long one at just 30 seconds over this seems a bit fast.

You’re right for an 8:00/m marathon running my long runs at 8:3X is too fast. Really I don’t think I’m viewing the weeks over winter as a marathon training plan. I’m focusing more on trying to maintain a certain level of fitness. When February comes I plan on shifting up to 5 days a week and then I will have to review my paces. Also I say 8:00/m but I guess I’m really thinking 7:5X.

Right now I have in mind a marathon plan consisting of 1 long run at 8:4X, 1 short/medium PMP at 7:5X, two steady short runs at 8:2X and I’m toying with the idea of one further fast run at 7:4X. But all this really depends on how I feel come February and in the meantime I not shutting my ears to any advice.

outforarun

Ok, a cautious return to the road this evening. I've really done almost next to no running since crossing the finishing line at the Cork to Cobh.

I had planned a 12 week program to bring me up to mid January and wanted to focus on improving my 5 mile time. Body decided that wasn't going to happen.

So instead I've drafted a 9 week schedule that will take me up to mid January but now the aim is simply to try get back to where I was two months ago. Aim is to run a 10 miler comfortably in 7:4X come week 9.

Plan is 4 sessions a week. Looks ok on paper but fingers-crossed I'll manage to hit all my marks on the road without further injury interruption.

Tonight it felt great to be back running. I really missed it. 4 miles on the menu. Pacing wasn't the best mile by mile but the overall pace was on target. It's a loop with a few uphills and downhills so it's hard to get each mile spot on and I'm not going to kill myself trying to do so.

Felt a bit heavy but never felt uncomfortable. A new pair of gloves keeping my hands nice and toasty.

Target: 4M @ 8:2X

M1 8:33
M2 8:36
M3 8:09
M4 8:03

AVG 8:20
[Total Distance 4.29M at 8:22]

outforarun

Cold out tonight. Another steady 4 miles. Felt fine, breathing was fine, didn't break too much of sweat. Trying to run at 8:2X now feels like trying to run at 8:1X a month ago. So I'm very happy with that.

Not so happy that about 15 minutes ago my right knee starts popping again . Not a bother while running, not a bother while pottering about the house for 90 minutes afterwards and now it's popping again. No pain just very unsettling. I walk to and from work everyday and it's felt grand over the last three or four weeks.

I have 8 miles planned for Saturday at 8:4X. I'll see how that goes and take it from there. Might have to think about putting the shoes away, resting up for the winter and then just hope for the best from February.

Starting to wonder if starting this log has cursed me!! And after having such a fun year of running under my belt.

Anyway tonight's details:

Target: 4M @ 8:2X

M1 8:20
M2 8:07
M3 8:12
M4 8:22

AVG 8:15
[Total Distance 4.33M at 8:15]

outforarun

And the knee is grand again this morning, walk to work without even a hint of a pop wobble or crack. Going to wear a knee support for Saturday's slow 8 miler. Going to do some quad exercises from my desk and going to get this checked out certainly before embarking on HHs plan next February.

outforarun

Ok that was better. Out 4 miles, turn around and back 4 miles. Crunch, crunch, crunch through ice, heavy frost and light snow crust in Phoenix. Impossible to keep a handy pace going especially outside the Park with icy pavements and roads. Kept to bicycle and bus lanes where I could. Wore a knee support. Legs felt heavy over first 3 miles then loosened up. Knee support was a bit annoying at the start but then pretty much forgot I had it on.

I'm going to wear the support for the next few runs and I might hold off on any speed runs for the next couple of weeks.

Oh and this afternoon's run brings me over the 300 mile marker (305) since my first Garmin run on 30 June.

Target: 8M @ 8:4X

M1 8:26
M2 9:06
M3 8:51
M4 8:36
M5 8:23
M6 8:35
M7 8:35
M8 8:41

AVG 8:39
[Total Distance 8.11M at 8:40]

outforarun

Gave it a miss yesterday. Snow and ice made up my mind for me. happy to report that my knee seems to be holding up fine after Saturdays 8 miler. I'm definitely going to keep that support on for the rest of the year.

outforarun

Not even thinking about chancing the roads/footpaths. I'm seeing this cold-snap as a blessing in disguise that's giving my knee some extra rest time. I'll wait for the weekend and see what the Park is like. Should be able to get some miles in on the grass there.

In a fit of cold turkey I took my Garmin and measured my commute this morning. It's 2.17 miles so that's 4.34 miles every day. Almost 22 miles a week. Sounds like a lot when you add it up.

outforarun

First signs of a proper thaw this morning although pavements were quite slippy in parts. I've abandoned all plans of any structured training over the next few weeks. I'm going to run when I can and run mostly slow and just enjoy it. Going to start that press-up challenge thing tonight.

outforarun

New week. No ice. Back on the road. A handy 4 miles after work. Knee support on. First 2 miles felt heavy then started to loosen up. Feeling sore muscles now, but good sore.

Target: 4M @ 8:2X

M1 7:58
M2 8:21
M3 8:26
M4 8:38

AVG 8:21
[Total Distance 4.30M at 8:22]

outforarun

Same again. Knee snug in knee support. Sore legs of last night were already ok this morning and tonight's run felt easier than last night's, pleasant surprise. Will hold of now until the weekend where the plan is a 5 miler Saturday morning and a slow 8 miler Sunday morning. Course the Arctic Hurricane that's heading this way might have something to say about that.

Tonight's details

Target: 4M @ 8:2X

M1 8:09
M2 8:18
M3 8:22
M4 8:24

AVG 8:18
[Total Distance 4.33M at 8:18]

outforarun

Didn't have high hopes of being able to run this morning was convinced I'd wake up to a snowscape. Instead it seems Dublin is the only place in Ireland and Europe to have escaped the snow (for now).

May not have been any snow but it was freezing this morning. A warm-up trot to Phoenix didn't do much to warm me up. First 2 miles of session were tough, legs felt stiff and breathing in that freezing air wasn't fun. Next 3 miles though I felt ok and warm.

Hope that big stag with the huge antlers on the other side of this quiet back-road is clear about who's the carnivore. A warm-down trot back from Park and I'm very happy with the morning's work.

Warm-up
1.21 M @ 9:12

Session Target: 5M @ 8:2X

M1 7:57
M2 8:21
M3 8:16
M4 8:31
M5 8:23

AVG 8:18
[Total Distance 5.28M at 8:20]

Warm-down
1.19 M @ 9:28

outforarun

Still no snow, brilliant. Head out late morning rather than early morning and that couple of hours makes a big difference, it's cold but not freezing like yesterday morning. As always the first 2 to 3 miles legs feel stiff. Must remember though that the run up to Castleknock through the Park is a steady incline. Coming back was easy, barely broke a sweat and enjoyed the warmth of the sun.

My aim was for 4 runs a week, this is the first week since the start of October that I've managed to that. No injury, ailment or ice .

Knee support will stay on for the foreseeable future, seems to be helping.


Target: 8M @ 8:4X

M1 8:49
M2 8:40
M3 8:36
M4 8:31
M5 8:30
M6 8:51
M7 8:34
M8 8:51

AVG 8:40
[Total Distance 8.07M at 8:41]

outforarun

Just looked out the window here, heavy snow falling and staying on the ground. Ah well at least I got out over the weekend. If this freezes over it'll be shoes up again for a while.

Have to remember that the fitness I may lose is compensated for by the extra rest my knee will gain. Wonder how long this snap will last.

outforarun

Happy New Year All

Christmas saw the arrival of a lot of snow and ice and ....... a healthy baby girl . Running has taken the back-seat for the moment.

February 1st is looming as the day I start HH's Intermediate II plan for Cork. I hope to get some amount of light running done before then.
I've also contacted the Santry Sports Clinic to see what they can offer in terms of having my right knee checked. As always there is no pain, and I'm hoping it's healing itself throughout this period of inactivity, but I do want to have it looked at before starting into a new training regime.

rainbow kirby

outforarun wrote: »

Christmas saw the arrival of a lot of snow and ice and ....... a healthy baby girl

Congratulations!

outforarun

Thanks Rainbow.

Yeah time has suddenly become very precious. I reckon I won't be able to get out on the road until the middle of this month. I'm getting concerned now about my paces come February.

Putting default goals of avoiding injury and getting to the start-line aside my first goal is to PB in Cork in June. But I'd love to target a sub 3:30. My pace race then would be 7:5X (high-end). I ran faster than that comfortably in October over the 15 miles from Cork to Cobh. Now instead?

My idea is to run my Saturday pace runs just that little bit faster at 7:4X, this was my actual race pace over 10, 13.1 and 15 mile courses last year. But I haven't been able to string together any proper running sessions for the guts of three months!!

I'd be nervous about running 5 mile at 7:4X now. I'm not concerned about distance, just the pace has me worried.

I've a little plan that I'd like to implement before 1 February.

Three sets of three runs, each set over three consecutive days, every run over 4 miles.

Set 1 Run1 8:3X
Set 1 Run2 8:0X
Set 1 Run3 8:3X

Set 2 Run1 8:3X
Set 2 Run2 7:5X
Set 2 Run3 8:3X

Set 3 Run1 8:3X
Set 3 Run2 7:4X
Set 3 Run3 8:3X

If I can do this without too much effort then I'd be really pleased. Need to check a calendar.

outforarun

Looking forward to going for a run this evening. First of three consecutive days running and first of 9 runs planned between now and the end of the month. All runs over 4 miles. First time posting a table on here, hope I get it right!

If I get through these 9 runs I hope to have a better idea about best paces to aim for during training for Cork.

Appointment booked for next Tuesday to have my right knee looked at.

Date|Distance|Target Pace|Actual Pace
14 Jan| |8:3X|
15 Jan| |8:0X|
16 Jan| |8:3X|
19 Jan| |8:3X|
20 Jan| |7:5X|
21 Jan| |8:3X|
24 Jan| |8:3X|
25 Jan| |7:4X|
26 Jan| |8:3X|

outforarun

And so 2011 begins.

First miles logged. Nice and mild this evening. Run my usual 4M+ route. Felt fine. I've completely lost the art of pacing. I was trying to hit 8:3X pace and over the full distance I was just a tiny bit too fast, but no single mile was an 8:30 something. Slowed down too much after the first mile and then an 8:55 second mile made me speed up too much for the rest of the run.

Same again tomorrow but a little faster at 8:0X.

M1 8:26
M2 8:55
M3 8:07
M4 8:22

Total 4.28M @ 8:29


Date|Distance|Target Pace|Actual Pace
14 Jan|4.28 |8:3X| 8:29
15 Jan| |8:0X|
16 Jan| |8:3X|
19 Jan| |8:3X|
20 Jan| |7:5X|
21 Jan| |8:3X|
24 Jan| |8:3X|
25 Jan| |7:4X|
26 Jan| |8:3X|

outforarun

One of those days that wasn't really as bad as it seemed when looking out the window from under the blankets. Got myself up and out by 10 o'clock, maybe the worst was over by then. Yes there was wind assistance and wind resistence, but it wasn't too wet and it wasn't too cold.

Aiming for 8:0X I of course set off way too fast and covered the first mile in 7:37. Gradually eased back over the next miles running each one a little slower. Covered my route again just a little quicker than my target pace. at least I'm consistent.

Tried a different approach to pacing. Took 8:05 as my ideal time and just paid attention to my splits: 28" up after one mile, 42" up after two, 43" up after three, 26" up after four. This is how I paced myself while racing last year, I think I prefer this approach and the arithmetic is a handy distraction if feeling tired. Felt a little heavy on mile 3, but otherwise today's run was grand.

Three hot milk Weetabix my reward.

M1 7:37
M2 7:51
M3 8:04
M4 8:22

Total 4.36M @ 7:59


Date|Distance|Target Pace|Actual Pace
14 Jan|4.28 |8:3X| 8:29
15 Jan|4.36 |8:0X| 7:59
16 Jan| |8:3X|
19 Jan| |8:3X|
20 Jan| |7:5X|
21 Jan| |8:3X|
24 Jan| |8:3X|
25 Jan| |7:4X|
26 Jan| |8:3X|

outforarun

Sun doing its best to break through the cloudbank this morning. Nice conditions for a run.

Paced a bit better today, aiming for 8:35 pace. First mile too fast as always, 8:01, last mile spot-on at 8:35. Feeling good after these three runs in three days. I wore my knee support and I think I'll do so at least up to the end of February then I'll start not wearing it for some runs. My breathing has been fine, my legs are a little sore as I write, but all-in-all nothing out of the ordinary.

Two days rest now before the next set of three runs. Tuesday I'll have my knee looked at, fingers crossed there's nothing serious.

M1 8:01
M2 8:38
M3 8:29
M4 8:35

Total 4.26M @ 8:29


Date|Distance|Target Pace|Actual Pace
14 Jan|4.28 |8:3X| 8:29
15 Jan|4.36 |8:0X| 7:59
16 Jan|4.26 |8:3X| 8:29
19 Jan| |8:3X|
20 Jan| |7:5X|
21 Jan| |8:3X|
24 Jan| |8:3X|
25 Jan| |7:4X|
26 Jan| |8:3X|

outforarun

Had knee looked at yesterday. Had it twisted this way then that way, rotated like that, rotated like this, bent this way bent that way. Had feet checked as well. Good news - couldn't find anything out of place, knee structure is stable, ligaments are fine, no obvious cartilage issues, feet have good biomechanics . To be sure to be sure to be sure I'm getting an MRI this Sunday, this will hopefully rule out any tears or loose cartilage. I'm hoping that this turns out to have been just a big uncomfortable niggle that is nearly done healing. When I think back it was a little sore before the Dublin Half, it got very niggly after the Dublin Half, and really I shouldn't have done Cork to Cobh just two weeks later.

4+miles @ 8:3X planned for this evening.

outforarun

An open shoe-lace and an unlucky traffic light pushed mile one over the 9 minute mark this evening. But over the full run I hit my target pace spot on at 8:35. Felt a bit tired and it was pretty cold this evening. I always run with a water bottle and by the end my right-hand was frozen numb.

Tomorrow crank it up a little and aim for 7:5X miles.

M1 9:04
M2 8:37
M3 8:21
M4 8:24

Total 4.33M @ 8:35


Date|Distance|Target Pace|Actual Pace
14 Jan|4.28 |8:3X| 8:29
15 Jan|4.36 |8:0X| 7:59
16 Jan|4.26 |8:3X| 8:29
19 Jan|4.33 |8:3X| 8:35
20 Jan| |7:5X|
21 Jan| |8:3X|
24 Jan| |8:3X|
25 Jan| |7:4X|
26 Jan| |8:3X|

outforarun

Pair of gloves first thing on my checklist this evening. Out into the cold and set off at a good clip. Some slippy patches, be careful.

First mile in 7:30. When I run my loop clockwise mile two is always the slowest mile, tonight a 7:51. Hmmm, ok I'm tempted to try stay under 8:00 minutes for each mile. Mile three and tonight's run feeling like a proper workout now. Exercising the lungs and I post a 7:33. Ok I do ease off a little and mile four is 8:02.

Very poor discipline tonight, I should have eased of after mile 1. But I enjoyed the run. I'm ahead of schedule, my 7:4X run was planned for next Tuesday. Feeling confident now that my race-pace runs will be 7:4X.

Promise to self, tomorrow stay disciplined and hit 8:3X.

M1 7:30
M2 7:51
M3 7:33
M4 8:02

Total 4.30M @ 7:46


Date|Distance|Target Pace|Actual Pace
14 Jan|4.28 |8:3X| 8:29
15 Jan|4.36 |8:0X| 7:59
16 Jan|4.26 |8:3X| 8:29
19 Jan|4.33 |8:3X| 8:35
20 Jan|4.30 |7:5X| 7:46
21 Jan| |8:3X|
24 Jan| |8:3X|
25 Jan| |7:4X|
26 Jan| |8:3X|

outforarun

Didn't get out of work on time last night so postponed yesterday's run. Went out this morning instead. Chilly enough. Felt tired and was convinced I was running slower than 8:3X, I was near the end but still posted an average pace of 8:23.

Smell steak and onions from downstairs. Hungry.

M1 8:19
M2 8:09
M3 8:30
M4 8:36

Total 4.32M @ 8:23

Date|Distance|Target Pace|Actual Pace
14 Jan|4.28 |8:3X| 8:29
15 Jan|4.36 |8:0X| 7:59
16 Jan|4.26 |8:3X| 8:29
19 Jan|4.33 |8:3X| 8:35
20 Jan|4.30 |7:5X| 7:46
22 Jan|4.32 |8:3X| 8:23
24 Jan| |8:3X|
25 Jan| |7:4X|
26 Jan| |8:3X|

outforarun

Went for MRI Sunday morning. Results will go out to physician early this week. Despite my knee feeling fine I'm a bit anxious about what will find. Fingers-crossed.

Have to switch this week's runs from the evenings to the mornings. But this morning I just could not summon the will-power to get up and out. Early to bed tonight is the plan then fresh for the road in the morning.

outforarun

Got my run in before work this morning. Been a while since I've managed that. I'd forgotten how good it feels to get an early morning run in. You can do no wrong for the rest of the day.

Paced well as well. Ran at the same effort the whole time. Targeting 8:35. First mile mostly downhill in 8:22 (-13"), don't worry second mile is mostly uphill 8:46 (-2"). Nice and steady through miles three, 8:25 (-12") and four, 8:32 (-15"). Final average pace 8:34.

M1 8:22
M2 8:46
M3 8:25
M4 8:32

Total 4.29M @ 8:34

Date|Distance|Target Pace|Actual Pace
14 Jan|4.28 |8:3X| 8:29
15 Jan|4.36 |8:0X| 7:59
16 Jan|4.26 |8:3X| 8:29
19 Jan|4.33 |8:3X| 8:35
20 Jan|4.30 |7:5X| 7:46
22 Jan|4.32 |8:3X| 8:23
25 Jan|4.29 |8:3X| 8:34
26 Jan| |7:4X|
27 Jan| |8:3X|

outforarun

All things going well, marathon training starts next Tuesday. I'm thinking a lot about paces. Plan is to follow Hal Higdon Intermediate II schedule. Trick now is to figure out what paces to apply to the 5 weekly runs. First off I'm going to abandon running to 'X' paces, 8:0X, 8:3X, etc. Find this gives be too much scope to be flexible and I lose focus. So I'm going to be very specific about by paces. Right now I'm thinking.

Tuesdays and Thursdays @ 8:25
I feel very comfortable at this pace. These runs are never very long. Anything slower would be too close to LSR pace. Should keep me tipping over nicely.

Wednesdays @ 8:00
I really don't want to rely only on Saturdays for fast running. Want to get a decent enough work out during the week as well. Might be tough at first but should get easier as I progress.

Saturdays PMP @ 7:45
My real PMP will be 7:55 but I want to train at 7:45. I like to give myself that little buffer. Will be tough in the first few weeks, but like Wednesdays this should get easier as the weeks pass.

Sundays LSR @ 8:40
45 seconds slower than the actual PMP I plan to run the marathon at, and 55 seconds slower that the PMP I will train at.

Still have a week to confirm these.

macinalli

Have been told by some very good runners that they key to improvement is varying your pace. Your recovery runs should be slow, and your fast runs should be fast. You don't seem to have that - are all your sessions paced very similarly? If you're planning on doing 8 minute miles for a marathon I'd have expected your slow runs to be about 9 mins/mile and your speedwork up near 7 mins/mile. Just curious why you've picked the paces so close together!

menoscemo

macinalli wrote: »

Have been told by some very good runners that they key to improvement is varying your pace. Your recovery runs should be slow, and your fast runs should be fast. You don't seem to have that - are all your sessions paced very similarly? If you're planning on doing 8 minute miles for a marathon I'd have expected your slow runs to be about 9 mins/mile and your speedwork up near 7 mins/mile. Just curious why you've picked the paces so close together!

+1 I was training for a 3:30 marathon this summer.
I would do a midweek tempo every fortnight of 3-7 miles (building up the distance through the weeks) at Half marathon pace: 6 miles with 3 at HMP to start building up to 11 with 7 @ HMP. This pace started at about 7:30/mile but by the end of the training period i could hold 7:10/mile for about 7 miles. In the weeks I wasn't doing a tempo i'd do an intervals session (10 x 400m, 6x 800m, 5x 100om) at about 6:30/mile.

Most easy/recovery runs would be 9min/mile+ and LSR's were a mixture of Slow (9Min/mile+) to build endurance and PMP (e.g. 18 miles with the last 14 at 7:55/mile) to get used to running at marathon Pace. Like tempos, PMP LSR's started short and built up as the weeks went on/fitness imporved (e.g. 10 with 6@PMP, 12 with 7@pmp, 14 with 10@PMP etc..)

The point is each run and pace should have a purpose and the pace should vary widely depending on the purpose of each run.

outforarun

macinalli wrote: »

Have been told by some very good runners that they key to improvement is varying your pace. Your recovery runs should be slow, and your fast runs should be fast. You don't seem to have that - are all your sessions paced very similarly? If you're planning on doing 8 minute miles for a marathon I'd have expected your slow runs to be about 9 mins/mile and your speedwork up near 7 mins/mile. Just curious why you've picked the paces so close together!

Thanks Macinalli. You're not the first person to comment that there isn't great variation between my paces. I do think I will run my LSRs just a little slower.

When I try to put together my paces there were two prominent thoughts in my head: firstly so many places I've read that LSRs should be at least 45 seconds slower than race pace, secondly I'm conscious that running significantly faster than race pace when marathon training increases risk of injury. With these two thoughts I set my LSR at 8:40, 45" quicker than race pace, and I set my fastest session at a little faster than race pace 7:45. I then try place my other paces somewhere between these.

I think I'll drop LSR pace a little further out to 8:45, a full minute slower than my training race pace and 50" faster than the pace I want to run at in Cork.

I'm going to keep your comments and menoscemo's in mind though and I wouldn't be surprised if they make me revise my paces again before I start training proper.

outforarun

Thanks Menoscemo. Now I'm more confused than ever!
I think I have to ask the question: can I run a 3:30 marathon by following Hal Higdon's Intermediate II plan?

For his Intermediate Plans Higdon says the following two things:

"...I recommend that runners do their long runs anywhere from 45 to 90 seconds per mile slower than their marathon pace."

"There is no speedwork involved in the Intermediate program"

I plan on running in Cork at 7:55 pace. I had chosen a LSR pace of 8:40, that's 45" slower. I know that's right at the start of Higdon's range. I'm going to drop it down a notch to 8:45, 50" slower per mile than race pace. It just feels so very easy to run at 8:45. I really don't like the challenge of forcing myself to run even slower. I may be hanging myself on this and it will be my fault. But 20 miles at 8:45 is 2hrs55mins on my feet and I'd run a little more to bring up the 3hrs. I'd hope that three runs like this would cover my endurance needs.

The lack of speedwork in Higdon's plan is a concern. I ran 400m intervals last summer and really loved them. I used them to get ready for the Frank Duffy and the Dublin Half. I'd be more likely to run 800m intervals for a full marathon. But more than intervals I think I prefer your idea of incorporating a tempo run. I might make my Wednesday runs tempo runs. Maybe keep Higdon's mileage and just run the miles to a tempo template. I'm going to think about this one.

Your PMP LSRs are tough sessions. They are more PMP sessions than LSR sessions I think, 12 with 7 @ pmp, 14 with 10 @ pmp. I think I'd prefer to keep my LSRs exclusively LSRs and my PMPs exclusively PMPs. But how many miles do you think you should reach at pmp pace. Higdon's plan brings you to a maximum pmp run of 10 miles. Do you think this is long enough. I'm not sure. And that's why I plan on running pmps at 7:45 instead of 7:55.

So based on your advice and Macinalli's I think my draft now looks like this;

Tuesdays and Thursdays @ 8:30
Slowing these down a little. I see these runs as runs just to keep the legs tipping over during the week.

Wednesdays @ tempo (tbc)
I'll keep Higdon's mileage but try work them round a tempo template. Need to think about this one

Saturdays PMP @ 7:45
Keeping this as is. I will do a little warm-up before these sessions. And I wonder should I increase Higdon's mileage.

Sundays LSR @ 8:45
Slowing these down just a little. 50" slower than race pace. I don't think I'd enjoy running any slower than this. 20 miles at this pace will get me 3hrs on the road (I'll run a little more than 20 miles on my peak long runs) and I hope that will tick the endurance box.

thanks again for your feedback, given me lots of food for thought.

outforarun

A real confidence boosting run this morning. Out early again. First lap 7:48 and I just try keep up the pace. Found it easier to do than I expected. Mile three I complete in 7:20 and it didn't feel hugely difficult.

So that's the last of the three fast runs planned in this mini 9 run program: the 8:0X run I managed in 7:59, the 7:5X run in 7:46 and the 7:4X run in 7:33. I'm about 10 seconds a mile faster than where I hoped I would be . I guess walking to and from work everyday (over 4 miles a day) helped reduce the rate I was losing fitness over these months of minimum running.

I'm definitely going to switch my Wednesday runs for Cork to tempo runs. Probably aiming for 7:30 or 7:20 miles. The first two Wednesday runs are 5 miles, so maybe 7:45/7:45/7:30/7:30/7:45. I'll decide over the weekend.

This morning's run.

M1 7:48
M2 7:32
M3 7:20
M4 7:34

Total 4.33M @ 7:33

Date|Distance|Target Pace|Actual Pace
14 Jan|4.28 |8:3X| 8:29
15 Jan|4.36 |8:0X| 7:59
16 Jan|4.26 |8:3X| 8:29
19 Jan|4.33 |8:3X| 8:35
20 Jan|4.30 |7:5X| 7:46
22 Jan|4.32 |8:3X| 8:23
25 Jan|4.29 |8:3X| 8:34
26 Jan|4.33 |7:4X| 7:33
27 Jan| |8:3X|

outforarun

Oops, slept in this morning (till 07:15!) so couldn't get my run in before work. I needed the sleep though. Sleep is good. Will try get out tomorrow morning instead. I do not want to run this weekend. I want to enjoy a runless Saturday and Sunday, if all goes according to plan the next runless weekend will be the 11/12 of June!

menoscemo

outforarun wrote: »

Tuesdays and Thursdays @ 8:30
Slowing these down a little. I see these runs as runs just to keep the legs tipping over during the week.

Wednesdays @ tempo (tbc)
I'll keep Higdon's mileage but try work them round a tempo template. Need to think about this one

Saturdays PMP @ 7:45
Keeping this as is. I will do a little warm-up before these sessions. And I wonder should I increase Higdon's mileage.

Sundays LSR @ 8:45
Slowing these down just a little. 50" slower than race pace. I don't think I'd enjoy running any slower than this. 20 miles at this pace will get me 3hrs on the road (I'll run a little more than 20 miles on my peak long runs) and I hope that will tick the endurance box.

That looks much better. The only criticism is that it's maybe a little heavy. You would be doing 3 big (or hard) runs a week (tempo, PMP, LSR). Most plans would only have you doing 2 tough runs a week. Your plan to do a PMP run on a saturday, followed by an LSR the next day also looks to be very tough.

Maybe Alternate your tempo runs and PMP runs on wedensdays? (do a tempo one week and a PMP the next) and throw in an extra easy run on a saturday. This also gives you a bit of variety midweek.

I am not sure to advise you on a longest PMP run. I followed P&D and the longest PMP Long run was 18 miles with 14 @PMP. You could easily replace this session however by finding a nice half marathon to race about 4 or 5 weeks out from your goal marathon.

It is also a good idea to get into the habit of speeding up for the last few miles of your LSR's. The natural tendancy is always to go out fast and slow down, but doing the opposite is great for building endurance and is also a great mental boost!!

Best of Luck with the training.

RayCun

menoscemo wrote: »

Your plan to do a PMP run on a saturday, followed by an LSR the next day also looks to be very tough.

That's the Higdon plan, I think. Instead of running PMP miles in your LSR, you do a PMP run on one day and an LSR the next. I suppose the first gets you used to marathon pace, the second gets you used to running on tired legs.

menoscemo

RayCun wrote: »

That's the Higdon plan, I think. Instead of running PMP miles in your LSR, you do a PMP run on one day and an LSR the next. I suppose the first gets you used to marathon pace, the second gets you used to running on tired legs.

Fair enough, I can see the benefit in that, but it may be tough if there is a tempo included mid week (HH doesn't have that right?). Sorry for confusing matters Outforarun . I am just such a P&D fanboy :pac:

RayCun

menoscemo wrote: »

Fair enough, I can see the benefit in that, but it may be tough if there is a tempo included mid week (HH doesn't have that right?).

Yeah, the intermediate plan seems to be like Novice2, in that the fastest run you do is your PMP run, everything else is at an easier pace. I wouldn't be inclined to mix and match training plans myself, unless I was really sure what I was doing. If you go with the mileage of the Higdon plan, dropping in extra speed sessions might break you.

outforarun

RayCun wrote: »

the fastest run you do is your PMP run, everything else is at an easier pace.

There's the rub. I think his Advanced plans have speedwork but these are over 6 days and mean having to find hills and a suitable place to do intervals. Right now I'm doing well to manage 5 runs a week.

I definitely want to get runs in that are faster than PMP. I followed Higdon's Intermediate I last year and I was really grand with running PMPs on Saturday and with running LSRs on Sunday. I'm not worried about that. Yes I see the risk in adding a tempo run on Wednesday, but who am I kidding, I have to give it a try. Three big days a week yes, but there's four other days when I'm either not running or running slowly over short distances.

Menoscemo, good idea about alternating tempo with PMP on Wednesday. I'm going to try tempo on Wednesday and PMP on Saturday. If I find it's tough then I'll try your suggestion.

Looking forward to next Tuesday.

outforarun

Ok finished my 9 run marathon warm-up this morning. So next planned run is for next Tuesday morning, session 1 of Cork 2011. Cold today. Took the legs some time to warm-up and wake-up. Spending my running time thinking about Wednesday runs, tempo or not tempo, what kind of tempo. Now I'm thinking the first two 5 mile Wednesday runs should be 8:00/7:45/7:30/7:30/8:00.

Anyway, this morning's run.

M1 8:43
M2 8:45
M3 8:13
M4 8:07

Total 4.29M @ 8:29

Date|Distance|Target Pace|Actual Pace
14 Jan|4.28 |8:3X| 8:29
15 Jan|4.36 |8:0X| 7:59
16 Jan|4.26 |8:3X| 8:29
19 Jan|4.33 |8:3X| 8:35
20 Jan|4.30 |7:5X| 7:46
22 Jan|4.32 |8:3X| 8:23
25 Jan|4.29 |8:3X| 8:34
26 Jan|4.33 |7:4X| 7:33
28 Jan|4.29 |8:3X| 8:29

outforarun

I have a cyst in my knee :eek:

Yip, the MRI results are in. I have a 3cm cyst in my right knee. Thankfully the radiologist sees nothing to indicate that there is anything sinister about the cyst.

The sports physician at Santry said she's seen lots of these and she says it is nothing to be worried about. She thinks it probably can be aspirated (drained). a 15 minute procedure under local. I ask if I can continue to run while waiting for the procedure. And I tell her that I've been running over the last 2 weeks and feel improvement and haven't really had that unsettling popping sensation.

I assumed it would have to be aspirated but she said well if I feel improvement and it's not bothering me I can continue to run and wait and see if it heals itself, which apparently these cysts can do. She insisted that I do extra stretching, concentrating on the quads, anything that helps take pressure off the cyst.

Ok then, I'll just monitor it over the next month or so. If it continues to improve great, if it continues to niggle then I'll have it drained.

As to what caused it, it's hard to say. Can be just general 'wear-and-tear'. My ligaments are fine. bone structure is fine and cartilage is fine.

I knew there wasn't something right with my knee, but I would never have guessed cyst. Right knee actually feels a little tender tis evening, have it under ice as I type.

Right, what's on tv?

outforarun

Ok I think I have my paces finalized.

Tuesdays and Thursdays [Recovery / Easy @ 8:35]
Slowing these a little further. No need for added strain during the weekdays.

Wednesdays [Tempo @ 7:30 peak tempo]
Weeks 1 and 2 are 5 milers, so 8:30/8:00/7:30/7:30/8:00

Saturdays [PMP @ 7:45]
Even though I expect to drop to 7:55 on race day.

Sundays [LSR @ 8:45]
One minute slower than my training PMP.