Which Irish Party do I belong in?

msteiner

I read an old thread about the differences of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, but I still can't seem to figure out which party I would fit more in. I might be spending this next summer working with either party (I'm a secondary school student from the states and my parents have friends with connections to both parties). Below, I will describe where I stand on the issues.

Taxation & Spending - By European terms, I am a hardcore Thatcherite. I am probably farther to the right than many Republicans (in the USA), favoring extreme fiscal conservatism consisting the advocation of budget cuts and tax cuts of over fifty percent at the federal level. I would probably be as far to the right, if not farther so, than the former Progressive Democrats.

Social Issues - Strongly in support of permitting abortion as well as rights of homosexuals, but strongly opposed to "affirmative action."

Crime & Drugs - Strongly favor ending ending prohibition of low level drugs, such as marijuana, and want to significantly focus on reducing amount of those imprisoned; against three strike sentencing.

Foreign Policy - Strongly opposed to military occupation of countries and "nation building," such as seen in the former military engagement in Iraq as well as the current occupation of Afghanistan.

European Union - While this should not be the deciding issue, even though it seems to be the main difference between FF and FG, I am against the EU as a governing structure, and in terms of the US, I advocate the US's departure from the UN, but... (see next)

Trade Policy - I support a general structure as the EU for trade policy. Free trade is good in my opinion when coupled with protectionist tax credits, not protectionist tariffs, to incentive national industrial and economic growth.

Immigration - Extremely strongly advocate the lowering of regulation to become a citizen and immigrate to another country; however, I am strongly opposed to amnesty for illegal aliens.

Environment - Want to protect environment and curb Carbon emissions through property rights and free market principles, most principally tax credits and extreme incentives to use and develop environmental sound technology.

In General - I am a strict and pure constitutionalist of the United States.

I probably have included enough info. If there are any specific questions about what I believe, just post them here. Thanks again for answering my question.

-Matt

PomBear

Bar Taxation, Sinn Féin are pretty close to your ideals imo

meglome

PomBear wrote: »

Bar Taxation, Sinn Féin are pretty close to your ideals imo

I'd have to agree with you on the majority of his points.

I have an American friend and though he's a very nice guy he's a mile from me in terms of politics. He's a big fan of Ronald Reagan and he just really doesn't get the whole concept of how socialist (in certain ways) us Europeans can be. It's like I'm trying to tell him that black is in fact white.

Eliot Rosewater

Sinn Fein? The OP is quite clearly an economic liberal. Sinn Fein are looking for a socialist "Ireland of Equals". Their views are extremely far from the OP's.

Also, the OP is in favour of some elements of the EU. Sinn Fein, despite the overtones, is clearly a Euroskeptic party.

Progressive Democrats more like it!

Callan57

msteiner wrote: »

I read an old thread about the differences of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, but I still can't seem to figure out which party I would fit more in. I might be spending this next summer working with either party (I'm a secondary school student from the states and my parents have friends with connections to both parties). Below, I will describe where I stand on the issues.

Taxation & Spending - By European terms, I am a hardcore Thatcherite. I am probably farther to the right than many Republicans (in the USA), favoring extreme fiscal conservatism consisting the advocation of budget cuts and tax cuts of over fifty percent at the federal level. I would probably be as far to the right, if not farther so, than the former Progressive Democrats.

Social Issues - Strongly in support of permitting abortion as well as rights of homosexuals, but strongly opposed to "affirmative action."

Crime & Drugs - Strongly favor ending ending prohibition of low level drugs, such as marijuana, and want to significantly focus on reducing amount of those imprisoned; against three strike sentencing.

Foreign Policy - Strongly opposed to military occupation of countries and "nation building," such as seen in the former military engagement in Iraq as well as the current occupation of Afghanistan.

European Union - While this should not be the deciding issue, even though it seems to be the main difference between FF and FG, I am against the EU as a governing structure, and in terms of the US, I advocate the US's departure from the UN, but... (see next)

Trade Policy - I support a general structure as the EU for trade policy. Free trade is good in my opinion when coupled with protectionist tax credits, not protectionist tariffs, to incentive national industrial and economic growth.

Immigration - Extremely strongly advocate the lowering of regulation to become a citizen and immigrate to another country; however, I am strongly opposed to amnesty for illegal aliens.

Environment - Want to protect environment and curb Carbon emissions through property rights and free market principles, most principally tax credits and extreme incentives to use and develop environmental sound technology.

In General - I am a strict and pure constitutionalist of the United States.

I probably have included enough info. If there are any specific questions about what I believe, just post them here. Thanks again for answering my question.

-Matt

Why can't you just be honest, say it straight & cut out the waffle .... you're a Mé Feiner - put simply you belong in the 'I can look after myself & no obstacle should be put in my way & to hell with anyone who can't do likewise'.

deise go deo

Given that you strongly or extremely strongly support most of those things I would say politics isent the life for you.

dlofnep

PomBear wrote: »

Bar Taxation, Sinn Féin are pretty close to your ideals imo

No they are not. Fiscal conservatism isn't really compatible with social balance. I would hazard a guess that the OP is a free-market, pure-blood capitalist.

OP - I don't think any one political party in Ireland would fit your description. You would have to literally take bits and pieces from each of the main 5 parties before you'd get what you're looking for.

On Taxation & Spending - I'd estimate that Fine Gael would be the closest to what you're looking for. But in comparison to American parties - they would still be seen as economically centre-left. They are viewed locally here as centre-right.

On Social Issues - Each political party varies on individual issues. For example, Sinn Féin is in favour of gay marriage and equality, but has no policy defined on abortion (although, most activists are pro-choice). Fianna Fáil I believe is pro-choice, while Fine Gael voted against the last abortion referendum.

On foreign policy - All major parties have been critical of occupation. Sinn Féin has probably been the most vocal on the issue.

On the European Union - Fianna Fáil & Fine Gael have been strong supporters of the EU, while Sinn Féin has remained reserved about transferring power outside of Ireland.

On trade - I'm not entirely sure what the policy line is on this for each party - I know that Sinn Féin has favoured fair-trade where possible.

On Immigration - This is an issue that is usually swept under the carpet, and you'll find most parties nodding in agreement with each other on immigration issues.

But in closing - I don't believe you'd feel right in any political party in Ireland.

newmug

Callan57 wrote: »

Why can't you just be honest, say it straight & cut out the waffle .... you're a Mé Feiner - put simply you belong in the 'I can look after myself & no obstacle should be put in my way & to hell with anyone who can't do likewise'.

Fianna Fail so.

FreudianSlippers

msteiner wrote: »

I read an old thread about the differences of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, but I still can't seem to figure out which party I would fit more in. I might be spending this next summer working with either party (I'm a secondary school student from the states and my parents have friends with connections to both parties). Below, I will describe where I stand on the issues.

Taxation & Spending - By European terms, I am a hardcore Thatcherite. I am probably farther to the right than many Republicans (in the USA), favoring extreme fiscal conservatism consisting the advocation of budget cuts and tax cuts of over fifty percent at the federal level. I would probably be as far to the right, if not farther so, than the former Progressive Democrats.

Social Issues - Strongly in support of permitting abortion as well as rights of homosexuals, but strongly opposed to "affirmative action."

Crime & Drugs - Strongly favor ending ending prohibition of low level drugs, such as marijuana, and want to significantly focus on reducing amount of those imprisoned; against three strike sentencing.

Foreign Policy - Strongly opposed to military occupation of countries and "nation building," such as seen in the former military engagement in Iraq as well as the current occupation of Afghanistan.

European Union - While this should not be the deciding issue, even though it seems to be the main difference between FF and FG, I am against the EU as a governing structure, and in terms of the US, I advocate the US's departure from the UN, but... (see next)

Trade Policy - I support a general structure as the EU for trade policy. Free trade is good in my opinion when coupled with protectionist tax credits, not protectionist tariffs, to incentive national industrial and economic growth.

Immigration - Extremely strongly advocate the lowering of regulation to become a citizen and immigrate to another country; however, I am strongly opposed to amnesty for illegal aliens.

Environment - Want to protect environment and curb Carbon emissions through property rights and free market principles, most principally tax credits and extreme incentives to use and develop environmental sound technology.

In General - I am a strict and pure constitutionalist of the United States.

I probably have included enough info. If there are any specific questions about what I believe, just post them here. Thanks again for answering my question.

-Matt

I'm basically the same as you except I believe some social welfare payments are acceptable and I disagree completely about the EU. I am certainly a pro-Lisbon type and I think the EU has created a great social and economic benefit to Europe as a whole.

Wonder what party I belong in then?


PS: "I am a strict and pure constitutionalist of the United States." makes no sense to me... there are different ways of interpreting constitutions, are you saying that you are a historical interpreter of the constitution? That is when you read the constitution you do so literally and in the mindset of the writers?

HavingCrack

I'd be very similar to your views OP except for social welfare,which I believe should no be dismantled completely but definately scaled back siginificantly and the environment which I don't believe can be settled by "property rights", whatever that means.

Basically you seem to be some sort of right libertarian by your posts and with the extinction of the PD's there isn't really an Irish party even vaguely close to your views. Fisically speaking possibly Fine Gael would be the closest to Thatcherite policies while maybe Labour would be your closest on abortion matters. I'm not sure if any Irish party has openly called for legalisation of lower category drugs.

PomBear wrote: »

Bar Taxation, Sinn Féin are pretty close to your ideals imo

I'd say Sinn Fein couldn't be any further from his ideals. They're a left wing socialist party by Irish standards which would make them the far-left in the Op's views.

ninty9er

If it was 2007 I'd say you should work with the PDs, but that party no longer exists due to electoral annihilation.

FreudianSlippers

ninty9er wrote: »

If it was 2007 I'd say you should work with the PDs, but that party no longer exists due to electoral annihilation.

Me? I was with the PDs

I just cannot decide who to back now They all seem to have one thing that makes me go "oh no!"

ninty9er

OisinT wrote: »

Me? I was with the PDs

I just cannot decide who to back now They all seem to have one thing that makes me go "oh no!"

Nah the OP. There's compromise in joining any party really.

msteiner

If I had to choose between working with a fiscally conservative party (by Irish standards) versus working with a socially progressive party, I'd have to go with the fiscally conservative party. To me, it seems that while the PDs would be best, they of course do not exist anymore. I would assume that I would find more common ground with Fine Gael fiscally speaking.

In the United States, I ardently support and prefer Republicans over Democrats while I strongly disagree with Republicans on foreign policy and social policy.

Secondly, on the constitution question that someone asked.

1. There is only one representative at the federal level that is an originalist of the constitution: Ron Paul.
2. All other politicians in both parties blatantly, not somewhat, blatantly disregard it. They are far more than constructionists. They have no respect for the document, even as a living entity.
3. I am a strict originalist with the constitution.

Lastly, in many ways, I prefer the market wing of the Liberal Democrats in Britain to the Conservatives because of their stance on open government and ethical policy making.

As said above, it seems that Fine Gael would probably be the best and most accessible 'home' for me at this point.

irishh_bob

msteiner wrote: »

I read an old thread about the differences of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, but I still can't seem to figure out which party I would fit more in. I might be spending this next summer working with either party (I'm a secondary school student from the states and my parents have friends with connections to both parties). Below, I will describe where I stand on the issues.

Taxation & Spending - By European terms, I am a hardcore Thatcherite. I am probably farther to the right than many Republicans (in the USA), favoring extreme fiscal conservatism consisting the advocation of budget cuts and tax cuts of over fifty percent at the federal level. I would probably be as far to the right, if not farther so, than the former Progressive Democrats.

Social Issues - Strongly in support of permitting abortion as well as rights of homosexuals, but strongly opposed to "affirmative action."

Crime & Drugs - Strongly favor ending ending prohibition of low level drugs, such as marijuana, and want to significantly focus on reducing amount of those imprisoned; against three strike sentencing.

Foreign Policy - Strongly opposed to military occupation of countries and "nation building," such as seen in the former military engagement in Iraq as well as the current occupation of Afghanistan.

European Union - While this should not be the deciding issue, even though it seems to be the main difference between FF and FG, I am against the EU as a governing structure, and in terms of the US, I advocate the US's departure from the UN, but... (see next)

Trade Policy - I support a general structure as the EU for trade policy. Free trade is good in my opinion when coupled with protectionist tax credits, not protectionist tariffs, to incentive national industrial and economic growth.

Immigration - Extremely strongly advocate the lowering of regulation to become a citizen and immigrate to another country; however, I am strongly opposed to amnesty for illegal aliens.

Environment - Want to protect environment and curb Carbon emissions through property rights and free market principles, most principally tax credits and extreme incentives to use and develop environmental sound technology.

In General - I am a strict and pure constitutionalist of the United States.

I probably have included enough info. If there are any specific questions about what I believe, just post them here. Thanks again for answering my question.

-Matt

one which has yet to be born

Wolfe Tone

Sinn Fein are on the fence with regard to abortion aren't they?

dlofnep

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Sinn Fein are on the fence with regard to abortion aren't they?

There is no policy on the issue. Most of the activists I know are pro-choice. There are a few who are undecided on the issue. My understanding is that the leadership is stuck in a position where they don't want to upset anyone - and are of the opinion that it should be an individual matter. Personally, I think it's an issue that is important to many people and as such - policy should be made either way.

Wolfe Tone

dlofnep wrote: »

There is no policy on the issue. Most of the activists I know are pro-choice. There are a few who are undecided on the issue. My understanding is that the leadership is stuck in a position where they don't want to upset anyone - and are of the opinion that it should be an individual matter. Personally, I think it's an issue that is important to many people and as such - policy should be made either way.

Thats probably the cleverest position. I know I certainly would not vote for them if they were pro.

dlofnep

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Thats probably the cleverest position. I know I certainly would not vote for them if they were pro.

Pro-choice or pro-life? Actually nevermind. That's your own personal views and I don't really need to know

Wolfe Tone

dlofnep wrote: »

Pro-choice or pro-life? Actually nevermind. That's your own personal views and I don't really need to know

Pro Choice. I have no bones about saying I find abortion disgusting.

jackbenimble

The OP is an out and out libertarian. No main stream Irish party fits this description. In fact, no main stream UK party fits it either.

Libertarians tend to be mainly young people, especially young men, especially young educated men, especially young educated prosperous men, especially young educated prosperous men who like to sleep around or who are homosexuals...

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dlofnep

What's the link that's usually under Minister's sig: http://www.liberals.ie

Eliot Rosewater

jackbenimble wrote: »

Libertarians tend to be mainly young people, especially young men, especially young educated men, especially young educated prosperous men, especially young educated prosperous men who like to sleep around or who are homosexuals...

You consider the word "homosexual" to be some kind of slur?

Sardonicat

OP, you are an American secondary school student? And you will be working for a political party in Ireland next year because your parent's have connections to both FF & FG parties?

Ah, it's great to know that nepotism still works in these recessionary times!

As to which party? Unfortunately, The Progressive Democrats no longer exist. Still, it's great to have a choice, eh? What's that like?

meglome

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Sinn Fein? The OP is quite clearly an economic liberal. Sinn Fein are looking for a socialist "Ireland of Equals". Their views are extremely far from the OP's.

Also, the OP is in favour of some elements of the EU. Sinn Fein, despite the overtones, is clearly a Euroskeptic party.

Progressive Democrats more like it!

It was more that Americans in general have more extreme political views than the average European so that's why I suggested Sinn Fein.

PanchoVilla

Why constrain yourself to one political party? Just vote for the guy who you think will do the most good for the country, not the one who says he will do something then do the exact opposite because his party told him to. Do the right thing, support your local independent politician.

Eliot Rosewater

meglome wrote: »

It was more that Americans in general have more extreme political views than the average European so that's why I suggested Sinn Fein.

Well, more extreme from a European perspective. For many of then European views are extreme. The average political outlook seems to be a lot different in the two places.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Do the right thing, support your local independent politician.

Ah, now. Independent politicians have typically been the ones sacrificing national interests for local ones by having to be effectively bought out by the incumbent government. Think of Healy-Rae.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Nodin

I'd sign on to a Libertine party, certainly.

PanchoVilla

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Ah, now. Independent politicians have typically been the ones sacrificing national interests for local ones by having to be effectively bought out by the incumbent government. Think of Healy-Rae.

Healy-Rae had been a FF member since the 1960s. The only reason he went independent was because FF wouldn't put him forward for the '97 general election. He supports everything FF does, including the massive cutbacks and bank bailouts. He is not truly independent, just a FF lackey who helps the party from the outside.

After the election, the Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats prospective government was still short of an overall majority. Healy-Rae was one of three Independent TDs (the others were Michael Lowry and Mildred Fox) who supported the government throughout its five year term. In return for this support he secured funding for projects in his constituency and chairmanship of the Environment committee.

He was again re-elected to the Dáil in the 2007 general election and signed a deal with Fianna Fáil promising to support the government in return for investment in the South Kerry constituency. The details of this deal have not been made public. Healy-Rae has been criticized for not making the details of the deal public and for supporting the government over highly controversial cutbacks. He was confronted publicly by members of the Kerry Public Sector Workers Alliance about his continual support for cutbacks and for the Irish Bank Bailout. Healy-Rae said he was powerless as he had only one vote and that they "should talk to the Greens that are making the big changes".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Healy-Rae#Election_to_D.C3.A1il

Now he's definitely not someone I would consider to be a truly independent candidate.

msteiner

The new and upcoming Irish Liberal Party sounds extremely interesting and I really hope that it gains traction. It would be cool to see a Liberal-Fine Gael coalition someday.

Executive Steve

msteiner wrote: »

I'm a secondary school student from the states

msteiner wrote: »

1. There is only one representative at the federal level that is an originalist of the constitution: Ron Paul.
2. All other politicians in both parties blatantly, not somewhat, blatantly disregard it. They are far more than constructionists. They have no respect for the document, even as a living entity.
3. I am a strict originalist with the constitution.

Bless.

RandomName2

msteiner wrote: »

I read an old thread about the differences of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, but I still can't seem to figure out which party I would fit more in. I might be spending this next summer working with either party (I'm a secondary school student from the states and my parents have friends with connections to both parties). Below, I will describe where I stand on the issues.

Taxation & Spending - By European terms, I am a hardcore Thatcherite. I am probably farther to the right than many Republicans (in the USA), favoring extreme fiscal conservatism consisting the advocation of budget cuts and tax cuts of over fifty percent at the federal level. I would probably be as far to the right, if not farther so, than the former Progressive Democrats.

Social Issues - Strongly in support of permitting abortion as well as rights of homosexuals, but strongly opposed to "affirmative action."

Crime & Drugs - Strongly favor ending ending prohibition of low level drugs, such as marijuana, and want to significantly focus on reducing amount of those imprisoned; against three strike sentencing.

Foreign Policy - Strongly opposed to military occupation of countries and "nation building," such as seen in the former military engagement in Iraq as well as the current occupation of Afghanistan.

European Union - While this should not be the deciding issue, even though it seems to be the main difference between FF and FG, I am against the EU as a governing structure, and in terms of the US, I advocate the US's departure from the UN, but... (see next)

Trade Policy - I support a general structure as the EU for trade policy. Free trade is good in my opinion when coupled with protectionist tax credits, not protectionist tariffs, to incentive national industrial and economic growth.

Immigration - Extremely strongly advocate the lowering of regulation to become a citizen and immigrate to another country; however, I am strongly opposed to amnesty for illegal aliens.

Environment - Want to protect environment and curb Carbon emissions through property rights and free market principles, most principally tax credits and extreme incentives to use and develop environmental sound technology.

In General - I am a strict and pure constitutionalist of the United States.

I probably have included enough info. If there are any specific questions about what I believe, just post them here. Thanks again for answering my question.

-Matt

Unfortunately OP: none.

You can compromise with FF/FG or probably Labour as well.... which advocate moderate policies in relation to all the above (which even if you disagree with those policies will still be about as good as you can get here).

People complain about the US being a two-party state.

What is the point in having 3 major parties in Ireland if all three are virtually identical; only replacing one another in terms of bitching and moaning about government spending depending on which is in power.

All Irish parties are soft-left wing advocating integration with Europe, moderate taxation and large spending on internal development and social welfare. They are all pro immigration and all terrible at cutting bureaucratic red tape. SF and Socialists are not proper political parties in Ireland (and one hopes it stays that way).

Bob Z

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So what is a libertarian

Lockstep

Given you have strong views on everything, I'm not sure any Irish political party would suit you. Irish parties are fairly broad churches (Fine Gael might be seen as the largest right wing party but also holds Garret Fitzgerald types who are slightly left of centre)

While we do have extreme parties, they are very small.

OhNoYouDidn't

Long and the short of it, FG are closest to your economic ideal, SF or Labour your moral/personal choice issues and foreign policy.

The Irish economic right tend to be reactionary social conservatives too. Bring up legalising weed at a FG meeting and see what happens.... The socially progressive parties are economically left wing, so it comes down to what you value more.

FF are a corrupt cabal for crony business men and don't do ideology.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dlofnep

Libertarianism while it looks nice in principle, doesn't account for the reality of social imbalance.

Bob Z

dlofnep wrote: »

Libertarianism while it looks nice in principle, doesn't account for the reality of social imbalance.

.......er,i was going to say that

Anonymous1987

Rarely does anyone find a political party which fits exactly their views on issues, most people must make compromises on joining one. Given the OP's preference for an economically right wing party I would suggest Fine Gael.

Bob Z

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

Rarely does anyone find a political party which fits exactly their views on issues, most people must make compromises on joining one. Given the OP's preference for an economically right wing party I would suggest Fine Gael.

doesnt most people not really know the policies of they vote for? They seem to vote for the individuals involved

Sardonicat

Bob Z wrote: »

doesnt most people not really know the policies of they vote for? They seem to vote for the individuals involved

I think (hope) that this is starting to change.

Anonymous1987

Bob Z wrote: »

doesnt most people not really know the policies of they vote for? They seem to vote for the individuals involved

Well yeah I'd agree but the issue at hand is which party will the OP join. Political parties have official policy stances on issues so given the OP has decided to become actively involved in politics we can assume that he cares enough to know about the policy issues.

Anonymous1987

dlofnep wrote: »

What's the link that's usually under Minister's sig: http://www.liberals.ie

Change has been coming soon for quite some time unfortunately.

Martin 2

OP, here's a left field idea . It seems that you're coming to Ireland for a summer to get some experience working with a political party and naturally you're looking for the party which most embodies your own views. However, from the point of view of learning about the wider world of politics and broadening your political experience and considering it's only for a summer, then maybe you could join a party whose views don't necessarily chime with yours but are still morally and ethically acceptable. I'd suggest the Green Party; you are both concerned about the environment but have somewhat different political ideologies. The Greens seem to have intelligent and articulate TDs and I'd imagine their party organisation is similarly capable, however, they wouldn't have the same resources to fund interns as the big parties.
-Just an alternative viewpoint.

HavingCrack

Martin 2 wrote: »

OP, here's a left field idea . It seems that you're coming to Ireland for a summer to get some experience working with a political party and naturally you're looking for the party which most embodies your own views. However, from the point of view of learning about the wider world of politics and broadening your political experience and considering it's only for a summer, then maybe you could join a party whose views don't necessarily chime with yours but are still morally and ethically acceptable. I'd suggest the Green Party; you are both concerned about the environment but have somewhat different political ideologies. The Greens seem to have intelligent and articulate TDs and I'd imagine their party organisation is similarly capable, however, they wouldn't have the same resources to fund interns as the big parties.
-Just an alternative viewpoint.

:rolleyes:

Dob74

msteiner wrote: »

The new and upcoming Irish Liberal Party sounds extremely interesting and I really hope that it gains traction. It would be cool to see a Liberal-Fine Gael coalition someday.

You are a Libertarian,
As a matter of interest do you support the bank bail out or would you let them crash and burn.
The so called Liberals in this country, where fairly quick to forget about the free market in this country and vote in favour of the bail out.
At least the Republicians voted on there values and voted against the bail out in the states.

Anonymous1987

Dob74 wrote: »

At least the Republicians voted on there values and voted against the bail out in the states.

The Republican party introduced the US bank bailout in 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program

Dob74

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

The Republican party introduced the US bank bailout in 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program

Sorry it was the Republicians in Congress voted it down, the second one got through.
Most Republicians voted against there prez

Anonymous1987

Dob74 wrote: »

Sorry it was the Republicians in Congress voted it down, the second one got through.
Most Republicians voted against there prez

Interesting... wasn't aware of that.