Incident this morning

madrabui

I was cycling to work. There’s a blind corner and I’ve had plenty of near misses. I make sure that I’m visible and stick out onto the road so no one can sandwich me into the ditch. I was cycling in the middle of my side of the road.


Before this bend there is a crossroads with plenty of traffic of children being dropped to school. I could hear beeping – more than the usual – but it wasn’t behind me, but I didn’t turn around. I saw a few cars overtake me, but at the corner I stuck out as if they did overtake me there I’ll be knocked off or clipped with a wing mirror. Still at this bend a few cars overtook me. I drive myself and know what the bend is like.


As soon as I was finished at the bend a guy started beeping again like mad. Then I realised that the beeps were coming from this car. I think he got out at this stage. I was in front of the car. I think I got off (stepped off) the bike at this stage and he pushed the bike off the road. He was shouting that I should stick into the side of the road. If I stayed at the side of the road, there still wouldn’t be room to over take me with an oncoming car. I had lights and reflectors on. I think at this stage he said he was going to call the guards. I told him to do so. All I remember ringing in my head was that I read on Boards.ie that I have the same rights as a slow moving vehicle and the new insert regarding cyclists with the new car tax cert. He was shouting at me still. I really don’t remember what he said. But I said to ring the Guards. I said then that I would ring the Guards. I wouldn’t budge and I asked (told reaaly) him to remain. He got back into the car, and I stood in front of the car. He started driving off. I’m no frigging saint myself and wouldn’t let him move. I know that wasn’t the right thing to do but I didn’t want him to get away with it. I went to his door and opened it and told him to get out. He drove off. When he was driving at me I was talking to the Guards.


I didn’t realise that there were cars stopped and watching all of this. One fella who was rushing to work did stop and wrote down his own details and details of the driver. The guards came. Now this is where I am completely in the wrong. I denied I had head phones in. Also I came across as a blubbering idiot. Someone at work also saw it, but I’m fairly new here and I kept my head down while blubbering to myself and I didn’t want to come across as a mentalist.


The guards said that they would call around to him if he was local, or call the person’s local Garda station. They said I should make a statement If I did this I would have to go to court. I think the fact I was wearing headphones would go against me and I would be wasting everyones time. Also I would get a feeling that the person would qualify for Legal Aid and that would further irritate me.


Would I be wasting everyone’s time if I went to court? The guards said that it was a road rage incident. I think the only reason the person backed off is that I was much taller than him. If I was a smaller woman or he a physically bigger man I think I would have fainted. I cycle on my ‘proper’ bike at weekend and I’m used to motorists but this morning really rattled me. But I think the experience of going to court would terrify me. Am I wasting time if I was wearing headphones? I could hear all the traffic and can have a conversation with this still in but that still doesn't make it correct.

kona

Jesus yer man sounded like a right cock, tbh, I wouldnt have stopped, Id have kept moving, god knows what these ***** would do, there are some proper mental cases out there.
All that said you did the right thing and just to prove his cowardice he ran away. Dont worry about it, and as for the headphones, since when is that illegal? plus if you could hear the beeping they wernt obstructing your hearing.
Id follow through with it tbh, country could do with one less ****wit on the road.

madrabui

I don't remember much. But after the bend I can pull in to let traffic go. I always do this as there's a roundabout just ahead. I usually pull in a bit so cars can overtake as there's a roundabout just after the bend.

It's then he stopped me and pushed the bike by the basket (I'm a proper girley during the week). I think he was out of the car when I did my usual pull in before I get to the roundabout. There's a large parking area. I was only thinking that I should have bought that USB cam on the cycling thread that's so busy.

I've never been to court. I haven't a clue what happens. I could just imagine the psycho staring me down.

Lumen

Lying to the Guards is never a good move. I imagine it could reduce the credibility of your evidence a little.

That aside, do what you feel is right.

madrabui

Lumen wrote: »

Lying to the Guards is never a good move. I imagine it could reduce the credibility of your evidence a little.

That aside, do what you feel is right.

Exactly what I was thinking. F**k it.

manwithaplan

Agree with Lumen re lying to the Guards. I think I would let it drop - hopefully the guy will think again next time he meets an assertive cyclist.

But it's up to you.

droidus

The guards should never have asked you that, its not illegal and it has no bearing on the incident. They might as well have asked the guy was he listening to the radio.

I wouldn't bother pursuing the road rage aspect, but Id follow up on it and ask the guards to have a stern word with him about the rules of the road, the correct use of the horn and how to treat other road users. You have witnesses and you didn't do anything wrong (except stop him from moving away - which could be interpreted as aggressive behaviour).

I think you'd have a good case though. If some wanker grabbed my bike and tried to pull it to the side of the road I dont know how much self-control I could muster.

madrabui

manwithaplan wrote: »

Agree with Lumen re lying to the Guards. I think I would let it drop - hopefully the guy will think again next time he meets an assertive cyclist.

But it's up to you.

Ya. I think it's more hassle that it's worth. I was mugged a few years back chased and got the guy but even then figured it was more hassle that it's worth.

Btw - I thought it was illegal to cycle with headphones. Something about 'driving with undue care' would go against you. That's why I denied it thinking I'd get a fine. I'm scared sideways since I saw that a woman refused naturalisation for cycling through a red light.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0911/1224278636072.html

mal1

I think you should give yourself the weekend to relax and get over it. Very stressful stuff! The minute this guy got out of his car then he was in the wrong, no matter what happened leading up to the incident. You're more than entitled to make a statement and go to court but you might feel different come tomorrow morning (especially with the bank holiday ahead of you).

I don't think the headphones matters in this case, but lying to the gardai may. You will have to tell them if you're making a statement. You don't want to go to court and get caught out badly.

Jumpy

Sorry can you clarify.

Do you think you would have problems in court because of the headphones or did the Guard say this?

mal1

I don't think anything will come of this unless you pursue it by making a statement. So I wouldn't worry about being refused naturalisation.

madrabui

I've no flipping interest in going to court and wasting people's time and money. I think I'd have a mini-heartattack if I met him again.

Jumpy

I am willing to bet he wouldnt do it to a guy. Typical bully.

Also madrabui can you confirm the question I asked you above?

poochiem

don't mean to be sexist but I think a lot of people would have a real problem with a guy getting out of his car and threatening a female. I don't care if you had earphones, earmuffs, and a spongy helmet on, you weren't endangering him by protecting your safety.

madrabui

Jumpy wrote: »

Sorry can you clarify.

Do you think you would have problems in court because of the headphones or did the Guard say this?

I think it. They asked me and I said no. I think I'd come across as a right trouble maker but I'll ask it when they ring just to clarify it for my own benefit when cycling.

My husband isn't Irish and I think it would go against him when a Garda report is done (for naturalisation - not by marraige but for time spent here). His family are the last people that we know of with his surname so it'd be easy enough to put two and two together. It's why we didn't pursue the mugging either.

It was the Guards that said it was a road rage incident. I said when I was on the phone to the Guards that I wasn't letting him go. He started driving towards me then. I just wanted to report that yer man was dangerous. I wasn't thinking at all.

But I do notice that I don't get any crap when I'm with a bunch of fine Irish fellas in lycra.

DirkVoodoo

poochiem wrote: »

don't mean to be sexist but I think a lot of people would have a real problem with a guy getting out of his car and threatening a female. I don't care if you had earphones, earmuffs, and a spongy helmet on, you weren't endangering him by protecting your safety.

True. The guy sounds like an absolute cock.

It's not illegal to have headphones in, did the Garda ask you this? It's not really a material fact, the bend being dangerous and you taking proper measures to make sure you didn't get knocked off was what angered the guy, not a pair of headphones.

The way some people overtake is beyond idiotic, I wish the Gardai would take these incidents more seriously because it seems the attitude is "ah sure no one was hurt". I've had people try and undertake me on roundabouts, overtake me on blind bends, pull into the cycle lane without looking to undertake a right turning car, etc.

In my perfect world, people who can't drive safely wouldn't have penalty points or 6 month bans, they would just be told "sorry, you obviously can't drive, you had your chance and you messed it up, banned for life". I mean, if people treated driving as a privilege the roads would be a little safer.

poochiem

as someone else says, take a breather, take the weekend to relax and don't stress yourself over naturalisation issues. If we lived in a perfect world you wouldnt let it cross your mind but if you think there is anyway this can come back to haunt you let it go, don't pursue it, the guards might have a friendly word with the chap.

tomasrojo

poochiem wrote: »

as someone else says, take a breather, take the weekend to relax and don't stress yourself over naturalisation issues. If we lived in a perfect world you wouldnt let it cross your mind but if you think there is anyway this can come back to haunt you let it go, don't pursue it, the guards might have a friendly word with the chap.

Yeah, I think the Gardai usually give you the option of either going to court or them giving the other party a warning. You might leave it at the warning.

Another possibility is for the Gardai to offer to put the other party on the Caution Register. This was what I decided on in the only road-rage incident I ever reported. The other party in my case would almost certainly not have been convicted of anything had it gone to court, but he had verbally abused me in front of a witness and behaved in a threatening manner.

EDIT: More information here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64930479&postcount=30

superrdave

First of all, sorry to hear about this. The guy sounds like an ass.

I don't think this is a traffic issue, I think it's a public order issue. I also don't think he would get legal aid for a section 6 public order charge (which is what this would be). The fact you were wearing headphones has no bearing whatsoever on his totally unreasonable, aggressive and intimidating behaviour. Phone the guards, make a statement and say you felt unbelievably threatened by his bullying and want him prosecuted.

Your wearing headphones makes no difference. He was angry because you were slowing him down; so what?

On the downside, I don't see that they can do anything with his driving licence for any of this; the likely effect would be a 100 euro fine or a contribution to charity. In all likelihood, you wouldn't have to show up to court if he pleaded guilty and by the sounds of it, he'd be a fool to plead not guilty given that he was totally in the wrong.

Jumpy

Send some of the boards lads round.

Except for Dirk. Hes a bit girly.

Lumen

Jumpy wrote: »

Send some of the boards lads round.

Except for Dirk. Hes a bit girly.

We need some Vigiliante Edition boards kit.

"Don't screw with me - I am protected by keyboard warriors".

Jumpy

"Honk if you want to lose a wing mirror"

seamus

tomasrojo wrote: »

Another possibility is for the Gardai to offer to put the other party on the Caution Register. This was what I decided on in the only road-rage incident I ever reported. The other party in my case would almost certainly not have been convicted of anything had it gone to court, but he had verbally abused me in front of a witness and behaved in a threatening manner.

This seems like the best course of action all around. This way the guy knows that what he did, didn't go unnoticed (and will land him in bigger trouble when he inevitably gets caught acting like a dick on the roads again). It will have no bearing on your or your family and you don't have to go to court.

The earphones thing is a non-issue, IMO. If asked in court about why you said you didn't have them in, you can just counter that you were in shock and didn't think it was relevant. While we'd all love to see a guy like standing in front of a judge getting a bollicking for this, in reality he'll end up with a €500 fine, which may not be worth the hassle that you feel this could bring on your family.

carthoris

madrabui wrote: »

I think I'd have a mini-heartattack if I met him again.

I think this is enough justification as to why you should take it further. A warning from the Gardai would be a reasonable response to his actions.

paddymacsporran

Guy sounds a right brave little man. Pushing a girl off a bike, jeez, he's got some real bragging rights down the pub over that one..... Weasel. Makes me angry just reading this, if I was there I would have decked him.

It wont go to court unless you press it - Good avice to think it through over the weekend, speak to the Garda and tell them you don't want to waste their time with court, thank them for helping you and ask them to send 2 x garda round to the little weasels house and have a stern word in his piggy little ears.

kona

The OP is a girl? :eek:

Why didnt anybody get out and smack this coward in the face as soon as he got violent.?? ****ing makes me sick. Im really sorry you met the ****ing piece of **** OP, dont worry someday hell pull this **** on the wrong person.

ROK ON

+1 Kona.

In this country people are way too reasonable when confronted with danger.

I have many times threatened physical harm on perpetrators of this kind of asshole behaviour.
It works for me but I am a completely unreasonable control freak.

Assert your rights folks.

paddymacsporran

Hope the OP's a girl, I think this was on one of the posts....

'My husband isn't Irish'

kona

ROK ON wrote: »

+1 Kona.

In this country people are way too reasonable when confronted with danger.

I have many times threatened physical harm on perpetrators of this kind of asshole behaviour.
It works for me but I am a completely unreasonable control freak.

Assert your rights folks.

While in most cases violence shouldnt come into play, if you find a bigger person physically assaulting somebody smaller, I think fighting fire with fire is totally justified. And a good hiding too none of your few slaps.

kona

paddymacsporran wrote: »

Hope the OP's a girl, I think this was on one of the posts....

'My husband isn't Irish'

what the **** has that got to do with anything? Homophobia forum is over on stormfront.

madrabui

ROK ON wrote: »

+1 Kona.

In this country people are way too reasonable when confronted with danger.

I have many times threatened physical harm on perpetrators of this kind of asshole behaviour.
It works for me but I am a completely unreasonable control freak.

Assert your rights folks.

The worst part really was he was driving a Cork reg car in Kerry. In fairness two people (both men) stopped to ask if I was OK.

I stick to baggy cycling jackets. The lads that I cycle with, always wonder why I stay clear of cycling jackets that would give me definite female definition.

Cork24

I F**K my bike at a car one day for trying to Push me into ditch almost came to blows but the people behind him told him he was in the Wrong..

I was in my Car once and a person on his Bike Stop on a Traffic light, no cars behind him, the light went green he was just starting to take off, when out of the blue a car came flying up the Road trying to bet the Orange light blow him right off his bike,

the fool got out of his car and tried moving the guy off the road,, First off if his Back or neck was broking and him moving him would F**k it up big time.

i have no time for people like that, I get's very very bad on my bike, <snip>

Beasty

No advocating damage to property (or any other form of "retaliation")

Beasty

paddymacsporran

kona wrote: »

what the **** has that got to do with anything? Homophobia forum is over on stormfront.

Jeez Kona, missing the point or what? You should look at the previous posts again.

To explain, (I'll keep it simple, you may understand) the point I was making was regarding the gender, as I had interpreted from posts that the person in the incident was female. Someone had asked the same question, so I highlighted where my assumption came from.

How the hell is clarifying a point like that homophobia? :rolleyes:

mtbireland

I'm still not clear what happened... but you shouldn't be cycling in the middle of your side of the road... when learning to drive a car the very first thing they tell you is to stay as close to the left hand side of the road as you can. Same goes for biking...perhaps now you've calmed down you can clarify what happened...

kona

paddymacsporran wrote: »

Jeez Kona, missing the point or what? You should look at the previous posts again.

To explain, (I'll keep it simple, you may understand) the point I was making was regarding the gender, as I had interpreted from posts that the person in the incident was female. Someone had asked the same question, so I highlighted where my assumption came from.

How the hell is clarifying a point like that homophobia? :rolleyes:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Are by asking the simple question

you a female?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

carthoris

mtbireland wrote: »

I'm still not clear what happened... but you shouldn't be cycling in the middle of your side of the road... when learning to drive a car the very first thing they tell you is to stay as close to the left hand side of the road as you can. Same goes for biking...perhaps now you've calmed down you can clarify what happened...

It seems pretty clear what happened.

The OP was approaching a corner which a vehicle could not safely overtake and took the primary position in the lane to ensure that if a vehicle did attempt to do so it would afford the cyclist some survival space. This also has the benefit of showing the following traffic that it might not be safe to overtake. If it was safe to overtake then the position of the cyclist should not be a problem.

It is good cycling practice to move into the primary position in these situations.

As is commonly accepted, a vehicle should give a reasonable amount of room to safely pass another vehicle. In the case of passing a bicycle the recommendation is to give them the full lane as was shown in the leaflets accompanying motor tax renewal this year.

If a vehicle was to give this amount of room then the position of the cyclist in their lane is not very important. If a vehicle cannot attempt to overtake a bicycle without the cyclist being stuck in the gutter then there is not enough room and they should not overtake.

BostonB

mtbireland wrote: »

...... Same goes for biking........

Sorry no it doesn't.

The problem is most drivers don't realise why cyclist do this, and think they should be in the cycle lane all the time. Which is also wrong.

paddymacsporran

kona wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Are by asking the simple question

you a female?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Nothing to do with my point, is it? It seems I'm in a battle of wits with someone unarmed....:P

Beasty

paddymacsporran and kona, back on topic please

Thanks

Beasty

coolbeans

mtbireland wrote: »

... but you shouldn't be cycling in the middle of your side of the road... when learning to drive a car the very first thing they tell you is to stay as close to the left hand side of the road as you can. Same goes for biking...perhaps now you've calmed down you can clarify what happened...

So wrong. Just so wrong.

Cabaal

mtbireland wrote: »

but you shouldn't be cycling in the middle of your side of the road.

Yes you should,
If cycling on the left hand side will lead to death and/or injury then cycling in a defense position ala cyclecraft is the best course of action.

[/QUOTE].. when learning to drive a car the very first thing they tell you is to stay as close to the left hand side of the road as you can. Same goes for biking...perhaps now you've calmed down you can clarify what happened...[/QUOTE]

Fantastic,
So on a blind bend if a motorist is not pay 100% attention and is saying doing 80km/hour they have an extremely high chance of hitting the cyclist who they won't see until the last second.

paddymacsporran

As a driver and a cyclist, when on the bike I will position myself where it's safest for me - If that's in the middle of the road on occassions, thats good for me. If the car behind has to wait a few seconds, so be it.

I find most drivers are pretty considerate to cyclists, it's the minority that are the problem. There is no excuse for the behaviour in this instance described by the OP.

seamus

mtbireland wrote: »

when learning to drive a car the very first thing they tell you is to stay as close to the left hand side of the road as you can.

:eek:
I hope your driving instructor isn't still teaching.

When learning to drive you are told to drive slightly left of the center of your lane. You will fail your test for driving "as close to the left hand side of the road as you can".

Motorcycles are the same - you drive slightly left of center of your lane. So a cyclist should do the same and only move left in order to allow following traffic to pass when it is safe to do so.

steamengine

One of the problems here is the different interpretation of cyclist positioning on the road, depending on whether you are a motorist or a cyclist.

Page 158 of 'Rules of the Road' states cyclists 'should keep to the left......', which IMO is vague. The RSA should update this publication with specific rules on cyclist positioning so cyclists and motorists know exactly where they stand in relation to this issue. BTW I am both a motorist and a cyclist.

BostonB

Try cycling, on the left, them try turning right or going straight where there 3 lanes. Let us know how you get one.

Its all about road position, same as a car.

steamengine

Rules of the Road, again, P158 - 'When turning right, get into the left side of the right turning lane, look behind and give the proper signal before you move out and ensure traffic in that lane is not going straight ahead. On steep hills or busy roads, pull into the left-hand side of the road and wait until there is a break in the traffic in both directions to let you make the turn safely'.

I've no axe to grind one way or the other but I do see 'left' being more dominant than 'middle' in reading the Rules of the Road. I do see the need for this publication to be updated with respect to the current increase of cyclists on the road and clarified/modified in favour of cyclists' safety, especially in light of the alarming number of knockdowns and road rage incidents being reported on Boards.

madrabui

mtbireland wrote: »

I'm still not clear what happened... but you shouldn't be cycling in the middle of your side of the road... when learning to drive a car the very first thing they tell you is to stay as close to the left hand side of the road as you can. Same goes for biking...perhaps now you've calmed down you can clarify what happened...

I think I know what you are asking. I wasn't on a 'city' street but a country road. If I stayed as close to the left as possible I'd have thorns in my face. I've been driving since the incident and there is no way a car can overtake at the corner. I have to reread what I wrote, but I 'stuck out' so a car doesn't attempt to overtake when there isn't room.

The driver has been paid two visits by the Gardaí since (his local and the Gardaí involved).

Al Wright

I have to admit that I havent browsed all the replies. I understand you are concerned whether or not its a waste of time having the case followed up. I am not a legal eagle, just have a working overview of general rules from my industrial experience.

As I understand it, you make the complaint, the Garda will review the facts, perhaps contact witness. They then decide whether or not to press charges. Under the recent legislation, I beleive there are standard penalty point sanctions applied to drivers for road traffic misdomeners which do not involve injury and, like spot fines and do not go through the courts.

Of more concern is the facts of who did what to who. If the driver got out agressively and threw your bike off the road, it is likely that Offences against the Person Acts that apply, as well as Road Traffic Acts. The Garda decide if he be charged with assult.

My advice is to follow through with the complaint, Even if it only results in a 'Caution' to either or both, the drivers name is on record, he shall have an incentive to behave for the foreseeable future.

rp

BostonB wrote: »

Try cycling, on the left, them try turning right or going straight where there 3 lanes. Let us know how you get one.

(but please note, you may need a Oujia board to submit your post to this forum)

rp

carthoris wrote: »

As is commonly accepted, a vehicle should give a reasonable amount of room to safely pass another vehicle.

I'd put it stronger than that. Although not enshrined in law, as the 1.5m passing distance is in countries like France and Germany, Irish case law has established that if the Guards investigate and determine that the car passed with less than 2m clearance, the fault lies entirely with the driver.