Newbie looking for advice

nesf

So am stuck down in Bronze. New to SC2, new enough to multiplayer RTS, been years since I did any and basically looking for advice.

Am working on my macro initially, since I was very weak there. Getting better. Was 3/2 in my placement games. Lost my first 15 games in a row, now up to 31 wins, 30 losses. Playing as Terran. Am using build orders from Team Liquid wiki. Watch Day9, HD and Husky. Beyond that any resources I should be looking at?

Br4tPr1nc3

best advice i can give ya..... kill the other player.


other than that.
learn as ya play and watch replays

Tenger

Well I think your current 31/20 win/loss ratio shows an improvment from your intial 15 matches. fait play to you for sticking with it...


I would suggest you practise a few of the terran builds A LOT. Play the AI, or even 2 AI. Once you are comfortable in that technique you know you have a solid basis.

As above watch replays of your losses and try to answer questions raised: Did you lose to not scouting his attack?
Did you miss sometihng he built in his base?
Did you overcompensate for his intial attack,leaving yourself open for the second?
Did you stop building SCVs after expanding?
What was his build order to get 50% more troops than you had at 10 mins in?
Did you neglect to use hotkeys to build troops/SCVs while attacking him?

Grimebox

Post the replay of the next game you lose

TheDoc

Agree with Grime.

Throw a few replays together and put the apck here and the lads can advise.

I myself am hanging around gold. I'll give you some advice from my end which is close enough to your level.

Time
This game needs time. I had a good 2-3 weeks of nonstop SC2 and shot from Bronze up to gold and was doing really well. Since starting work and going from day long session to an hour or two a night the difference is huge. The more you play the better you get. The more consistently you can play timewise, the more consistent your play will be. An obvious statement perhaps but ca be quickly overlooked.

Expand
money wins this game. When you can expand. Best times are usually when you have crippled your opponent or won a big fight.

Spend your money
Until you start playing Plat you don't need to worry about micro. If you can build some micro skills all the better, until then, focus on macro. This means spending your money. I try not to go over 500 minerals. So how do you spend that money?
Upgrades for units.
More unit production buildings
More units
Beefier units
Expansions

You can literally build massive armies and run them into enemies and sit and watch.

Counters
Try learn about the units in the game. What is strong for your race, and what the enemy races can counter you with. Then look at what you can counter that with etc. Getting information and wisdom about the game and its units goes along way.

Micro = Controlling a single unit to gain its maximum. So if its getting low on health, run it out of the lines and then back in.
Macro = Your army composition, how you spend your economy and the strength and size of your whole army.

Micro wins battles, Macro wins wars, as a great Wc3 player told me.

You might easily micro your way to a win in a battle, but if the opposing player has macrod correctly thay could have massive re-inforcements coming in.


I'd say the main thing I found a struggle was learning to spend my money. From a WC3 background building more then two unit production structures for the one unit was insane. Now I've no problem in building 8,9,10 barracks.

Learn how to macro and you will see your game improve the most drastically.

BopNiblets

nesf: If you'd like a sparring partner add me: Eoghan 642 (this goes for other guys too, I haven't been playing much on ladder, just prefer fun games)
I ended up in the Plat league somehow but I keep getting whomped and I hate the stressful matches anyway
I watch most of those casters too so I could refine any tips they usually give.

Jonny7

I think find your niche too..

Some people like playing every mode possible, other people thrive only on the competitiveness of 1v1 laddering.. personally I like 2v2s and I play mainly Lost Temple and the odd time do some laddering (I have a 2v2 partner so makes it much better)

As to getting better, well focus on macro as the lads said, keep the money low, don't get supply blocked and keep making probes.. sounds easy but will keep you busy for a looong time

NeoSlicerZ

#1 Learn one build and do it well, I suggest Trump's 3 rax build, push at 50 supply while expanding. Don't forget to get stim before conc shell (as it takes longer).
#2 SCVs, don't stop making them.
#3 Remember to MULE, the damn things are ridiculously good.
#4 Rule of thumb wrt production, you can generally support about 4 unit producing structures off one saturated base, add more as you get more bases. Hotkey your production so you can press a button midbattle and hammer aaaadd so you'll have a small army again by the time your current one dies (or not).

Chaz

BopNiblets wrote: »

nesf: If you'd like a sparring partner add me: Eoghan 642 (this goes for other guys too, I haven't been playing much on ladder, just prefer fun games)
I ended up in the Plat league somehow but I keep getting whomped and I hate the stressful matches anyway
I watch most of those casters too so I could refine any tips they usually give.

Ive added you for a bit of sparring if you keen. Chaz - 348.

nesf

I'll throw a few replays together from tonight. Playing Protoss now, tried them out for a change and having more fun to be honest. Focussing on 2 Gate Robo and 4 Gate (PvP) at the moment.

I'd love to be able to play Random well but that's a long way off.

Cheers for the advice guys.

nesf

Replays attached. 2 Losses, 1 Win.

I know I could improve my macro a fair bit. Beyond that, not very sure how to combat 5/6/7 pool vs Zerg beyond going 10 Gateway or something like that?

NeoSlicerZ

Cut probes 10 gate, forge when you can, use an extra pylon for a full wall off to buy you time, do NOT use a pylon in your initial wall off. Pull probes if you have to. NOT MORE THAN 3-4, use them to buy time by microing back and forth, throw up a cannon and chrono out a zealot, make sure the zealot comes out on YOUR side of the wall and is in place to block when your wall off pylon dies.

IRL_Sinister

I'm always up for helping.

Currently playing at ~1700 MMR in Diamond so hit me up for some games, analysis or discussion on how to improve if you want some quality help for free.

Sinister.947

EDIT: Also playing Terran.

nesf

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

I'm always up for helping.

Currently playing at ~1700 MMR in Diamond so hit me up for some games, analysis or discussion on how to improve if you want some quality help for free.

Sinister.947

EDIT: Also playing Terran.

I'll poke you at some point for a few games.

nesf

Getting settled with Protoss. Broke 25 wins last night. Any good Protoss tips and tricks always appreciated!

Funky

4 gate rush is the best build to begin with in my opinion. You get 1 gate then a cyber core, chrono boost out warp technology as quick as possible and add 3 more gates on so that they're up just as your research finishes. One fully saturated base will just about fund constant production from the 4 gates and it's a good build to improve your macro as a result.

nesf

Funky wrote: »

4 gate rush is the best build to begin with in my opinion. You get 1 gate then a cyber core, chrono boost out warp technology as quick as possible and add 3 more gates on so that they're up just as your research finishes. One fully saturated base will just about fund constant production from the 4 gates and it's a good build to improve your macro as a result.

Yeah have been using 4 gate a lot, though I get a fast Robo for an Observer most games. Normally go for High Templars against Terran or Zerg and focus more on Collusii against other Protoss, though I've had some success with 2 Gate Rush builds against Zerg and Protoss.

IRL_Sinister

That is the worst advice you can ever give someone. Please don't get into the habit of 4 gating in every game. Why? It's pretty simple.

Winning on ladder is like winning the Special Olympics - Even if you win you're still retarded. You're not learning anything from 4 gating. You might end up getting to a high Rating on ladder but then you become a ladder player and get into horrible habits.

Mixing things up a bit is great but if you go into a BO3 coming as a ladder player who likes to 4 gate - you're going to get stomped and be made look like a fool. It's cool using 4 gate to catch your opponent off guard or adapting to certain situations, but please don't ever start playing by using 4 gate builds. It's like watching Terrans using MMM in 1A and then losing the Medivacs because they didn't micro properly. They'll never learn. Get into the habit of focusing on macro and using diverse builds. Protoss is currently the most solid race in all matchups and so you can get very far using the standard 2 gate Robo Builds and just perfecting that while continuing to stock up on the Probe count.

I'm not saying that's the best thing to do - but one of the worst things to do would definitely be focusing on 4 gate on ladder - it may get you high but you're never going to learn.

NeoSlicerZ

4Gate... really won't get you all that high in ladder, maybe 1.3k Diamond. Then people start getting decent and the 4G fails more often than not..

Unless you're bleeding SangHo

SC2 is beginning to trend into macro style play more and more with 1 rax or 1 gate f/es being increasingly popular as people start figuring out how to not die. This.. is of course not applicable in PvP... where the first person to expand usually dies.

Funky

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

That is the worst advice you can ever give someone. Please don't get into the habit of 4 gating in every game. Why? It's pretty simple.

Winning on ladder is like winning the Special Olympics - Even if you win you're still retarded. You're not learning anything from 4 gating. You might end up getting to a high Rating on ladder but then you become a ladder player and get into horrible habits.

Mixing things up a bit is great but if you go into a BO3 coming as a ladder player who likes to 4 gate - you're going to get stomped and be made look like a fool. It's cool using 4 gate to catch your opponent off guard or adapting to certain situations, but please don't ever start playing by using 4 gate builds. It's like watching Terrans using MMM in 1A and then losing the Medivacs because they didn't micro properly. They'll never learn. Get into the habit of focusing on macro and using diverse builds. Protoss is currently the most solid race in all matchups and so you can get very far using the standard 2 gate Robo Builds and just perfecting that while continuing to stock up on the Probe count.

I'm not saying that's the best thing to do - but one of the worst things to do would definitely be focusing on 4 gate on ladder - it may get you high but you're never going to learn.

Actually I think since 4 gate teaches you how to macro half decently that it's the perfect start for most players. You're looking at it at the perspective of a relatively high level player where 4gate is almost cheese at this stage. In order to pull off a 4gate at all at lower levels requires you to be able to spend your resources efficiently and be aggressive. If you think any other build for P will teach someone who isn't already versed in what makes a player better other than that I'd sure love to see it. Cause as far as I'm concerned getting from bronze to platinum is just about getting to the point where you're not stockpiling resourcres.

If you're going to recommend builds which rely on scouting and judgring what unit composition you need from the information you get that's pretty much diamond level play really.

Obviously once you've mastered the 4gate at a lower levl you'll pretty much be punching above your weight. But the build itself will have taught you how to spend your money to be successful. If you want to progress any further you'll have to learn from there. Which is where more macro orientated builds and direct counters to certain builds come in. If you simply can't spend your money efficiently then no matter how much knowledge you have you won't be winning.

nesf

4 Gate is good in that it forces you to learn how to fight with just Gateway units rather than relying on HTs or Collussi every fight. It also teaches you to be more aggressive. I agree that you need to learn how to use 2 base Robo and 2 base HT/Zealot and similar builds but 4 Gate has its place. Learning how to fight with a smaller force rather than a big ball of units is important though because it's far too easy in Bronze to just play passively and go for a big mid/late game push because your opponents are so weak macro wise most of the time.



One question: When to get a third expansion? My biggest problem at the moment, I think is not expanding enough. My macro off 2 bases is improving but I'm not aggressive enough when expanding I think. I'm also tending to be too passive early game when going for a mid game push I think. Holding back and rebuffing rushes rather than pushing and probing my opponent.

nesf

Game from last night that I lost. I lost it because of two things I think, very poor Collussi micro (first game using them versus Terran) and not expanding to a third and fourth base fast enough. Unit balance could also have been better, if I'd made better use of Sentries and Chargelots I could have done better I think.

Constructive criticism very much appreciated. I *know* I'd have won the game if I'd gone for my normal HT/Zealot mix but I feel I need to learn new builds now rather than trying to do it later on in the ladder.

Grimebox

Get used to using forcefields a lot more. At his first push you could have separated his army, easily killed half, then just push out to kill the other half.

Then after this you are sitting on ~1500 min ~750 gas! Don't let this happen. Especially this early in the game when resources are more scarce. Build more gateways, build a twilight council, build units, build anything! Expand at this point too.

I watched the rest in x8. Just build more **** than him and you will win! Use those resources. Get more warpgates to spend it quicker

nesf

So progress so far:

Getting better at keeping mineral/gas count low.

Ranked 3rd in League at the moment. Beating top 5 ranked Bronze players consistently.

Hopefully will see a bump up to Silver soon. Though Battle.net only seems to be putting me against Bronze players at the moment which is a little disappointing, I'd like to get a sense for how far behind I am versus Silver level players right now.

Edit: Scratch that, ranked 1st in League.

Chaz

nesf wrote: »

So progress so far:

Getting better at keeping mineral/gas count low.

Ranked 3rd in League at the moment. Beating top 5 ranked Bronze players consistently.

Hopefully will see a bump up to Silver soon. Though Battle.net only seems to be putting me against Bronze players at the moment which is a little disappointing, I'd like to get a sense for how far behind I am versus Silver level players right now.

Edit: Scratch that, ranked 1st in League.

Well done, im hovering around the top 10 in Bronze, not that it means that much it seems. Would be nice to go to Silver but reckon I still got lots to learn in Bronze. We should play each other if we both at a similar level - Chaz - 348.

TheDoc

I'm going to gt a replaypack of myself

The next 3 games I play 1v1 I'm going to throw up and hopefully can get some feedback from peeps on where to improve.

I'm gold level but feel like a silver player most of the time.

Might put 5 games up not entirely sure, 3 sounds good. I'll play the games tonight and see what feedback I get, really want to get better at this game and become a better player

TheDoc

And here it goes. I'm going to just give a general overview to my thought process during the game

Game one(PVt Cannon defend)
The protoss player here cannon rushed me early. I didn't panic and waited for 3 racks with enough marauders to push out. I built a starport for fear of air and soon enough as I got to his base I saw the voidrays. Game pretty much goes me playing cat n mouse after I assault his main base.

Game two(****ing scout!)
This is typical me, all over. I'm feeling confident seeing my enemy going zerglings with a lack of speed. I see his early expand so decide to go marine, marauders with some medivacs and hellions. All is going swimmingly. I drop into his base as he pushes me, to completely whipe out his eco on his main base. But long and behold, spire is up, wham, no anti air, GG.

This is typically how I always lose games btw, I rarely have someone genuinely beat me by out manouvre in a battle, its always a ****ing massive unit difference ( ala he has air, I've no anti air)

Game three(epic game)
Game three is epic only in length. I feel confident off the front foot. TvT is a strong one for me, especially steppes of war. I force my opponent to turtle and I begin mass expanding and making a mass army. However at the isght of so many tanks I get scared and I very much stumble my way through the game until he quits, if he ahdnt, I didnt know how I was getting in to his base.


All feedback both positive and negative welcome and I'll have a butchers through work tomorrow

I'm Gold standard rank 29 and my sig has a link to my profile ( wish that sig would update more)

nesf

Replay attached. A win, and a comfortable one, but what could I improve on? My map control is non-existent. Was happy to play passive and macro up, a mistake? Etc.

TheDoc

Anyone any feedback for me ? :P

Chaz

TheDoc wrote: »

Anyone any feedback for me ? :P

Did you post replays?

TheDoc

Chaz wrote: »

Did you post replays?

LOLOL

Just realsied i posted ****ing descrips and never uploaded, what a dunce, will do when i get home haha

Chaz

TheDoc wrote: »

LOLOL

Just realsied i posted ****ing descrips and never uploaded, what a dunce, will do when i get home haha

*Might* explain the lack of feedback ;p although just a guess!

TheDoc

I'll get that sorted when I get home, the three games are actually a good reflection on my Sc2 play

TheDoc

TheDoc wrote: »

And here it goes. I'm going to just give a general overview to my thought process during the game

Game one(PVt Cannon defend)
The protoss player here cannon rushed me early. I didn't panic and waited for 3 racks with enough marauders to push out. I built a starport for fear of air and soon enough as I got to his base I saw the voidrays. Game pretty much goes me playing cat n mouse after I assault his main base.

Game two(****ing scout!)
This is typical me, all over. I'm feeling confident seeing my enemy going zerglings with a lack of speed. I see his early expand so decide to go marine, marauders with some medivacs and hellions. All is going swimmingly. I drop into his base as he pushes me, to completely whipe out his eco on his main base. But long and behold, spire is up, wham, no anti air, GG.

This is typically how I always lose games btw, I rarely have someone genuinely beat me by out manouvre in a battle, its always a ****ing massive unit difference ( ala he has air, I've no anti air)

Game three(epic game)
Game three is epic only in length. I feel confident off the front foot. TvT is a strong one for me, especially steppes of war. I force my opponent to turtle and I begin mass expanding and making a mass army. However at the isght of so many tanks I get scared and I very much stumble my way through the game until he quits, if he ahdnt, I didnt know how I was getting in to his base.


All feedback both positive and negative welcome and I'll have a butchers through work tomorrow

I'm Gold standard rank 29 and my sig has a link to my profile ( wish that sig would update more)

Here are the replays attached