Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email Niamh on [email protected] for help. Thanks :)
New AMA with a US police officer (he's back!). You can ask your questions here

Metro West Railway Order

  • 20-10-2010 7:43am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭ Van.Bosch


    Just saw that the RPA have submitted an application today for a railway order. Surprised as I thought this project was scrapped/shelved??
    Tagged:


«1

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    I suppose that gets the consultants another year or two of work out of it. I also thought the RPA was supposed to be abolished a few years back in favour of a dublin transport megaquango.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭ sdanseo


    http://www.dublinmetrowest.ie/

    Not much there yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭ strassenwo!f


    In the cities with the best public transport systems that I've seen, like, for example Munich, Frankfurt or Prague, they have tended to develop their systems in the following way:

    1. Get people into the city;
    2. Get people across the city
    3. Get people around the city

    I wonder if this application isn't perhaps just a teensy-weensy bit premature?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,316 KC61


    As far as I am aware the RPA are under instruction by the DoT to bring the various planned projects to railway order stage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,683 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1021/1224281622547.html

    FF pushing this just as their time in power is up?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    MW railway order application isn't really of interest from the point of view of a timescale. We know they were given money to keep this chugging along as it was specified in the budget. It won't be starting until 2018 at the earliest, if ever.

    What is of interest timescale-wise is MN's application. A decision is expected some time this month, and "this month" is drawing to a close.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,368 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    waste of time and money - it won't be built in its proposed form.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    loyatemu wrote: »
    waste of time and money - it won't be built in its proposed form.
    Care to elaborate? Why is a waste of time and money and what form would you suggest it takes?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,368 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    Its not in the current capital plan, therefore its unlikely to even start before 2015 at the earliest - I can't honestly believe that in the 5-8 years it takes for funding to (possibly) become available, somebody won't cry "stop" or some new masterplan for the capital will be drawn up. Basically its highly likely some future govt or transport authority will scrap it because:
    • It serves a lot of open space and industrial estates that are now unlikely ever to be redeveloped in the way envisioned when the route was first sketched on the back of a napkin.
    • While it does serve some populated areas, there's not enough potential traffic between these areas to justify it


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,464 ✭✭✭ munchkin_utd


    the one advantage of getting this railway order is that it preserves the path from being built upon

    even if it ends up being an express busway for bus/ tram thingies eventually, it has more of a chance of happening if a continuous path is reserved, rather than the irish way of assuming "it'll be grand", plan nothing, and in 10 years time have to purchase swathes of land at shocking cost because the land was subsequently rezoned by a councilor related to a land owner as goldmine development land.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    loyatemu wrote: »
    Its not in the current capital plan, therefore its unlikely to even start before 2015 at the earliest - I can't honestly believe that in the 5-8 years it takes for funding to (possibly) become available, somebody won't cry "stop" or some new masterplan for the capital will be drawn up. Basically its highly likely some future govt or transport authority will scrap it because:
    • It serves a lot of open space and industrial estates that are now unlikely ever to be redeveloped in the way envisioned when the route was first sketched on the back of a napkin.
    • While it does serve some populated areas, there's not enough potential traffic between these areas to justify it

    Not sure of the volumes expect and won't like to guess.
    However I agree when you look at http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/upload/Image/Metro_West_alignment_1108_large.jpg . Pretty much the entire north-side stretch seeams to be on the wrong side of the M50. A link up with Luas D in broombridge and up on to Carba, Finglas, Ballymun and link with MN would appear on paper at least to make more sence


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    the one advantage of getting this railway order is that it preserves the path from being built upon

    even if it ends up being an express busway for bus/ tram thingies eventually, it has more of a chance of happening if a continuous path is reserved, rather than the irish way of assuming "it'll be grand", plan nothing, and in 10 years time have to purchase swathes of land at shocking cost because the land was subsequently rezoned by a councilor related to a land owner as goldmine development land.

    In London they have something call 'route safeguarding'. Does anyone know how much detail they going to before a 'route safeguarding' is issued ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭ dowlingm


    Care to elaborate? Why is a waste of time and money and what form would you suggest it takes?
    An orbital LUAS (more appropriate to probable capacity), Were Line D extended to the LUAS West alignment then it's possible that the Line A, D and F depots would be able to handle the LUAS West services without building yet another depot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,368 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    dowlingm wrote: »
    An orbital LUAS (more appropriate to probable capacity), Were Line D extended to the LUAS West alignment then it's possible that the Line A, D and F depots would be able to handle the LUAS West services without building yet another depot.

    afaik it is planned to be built to Luas spec - there are at-grade crossings, on-street sections etc. The Metro name is slightly misleading and is only being used because it connects up with MN.


  • Registered Users Posts: 887 ✭✭✭ Telchak


    loyatemu wrote: »
    afaik it is planned to be built to Luas spec - there are at-grade crossings, on-street sections etc. The Metro name is slightly misleading and is only being used because it connects up with MN.

    I think it's actually somewhere in between.The platform length, power system and other technical specifications will be the same as Metro North, with interchangeable rolling stock. The line segregation however will be somewhat more similar to Luas, and the track will link with the Luas in Tallaght for some reason :confused:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,633 ✭✭✭ darkman2


    No, it's over the spec of Luas by the looks of this new vid





    And a new one for Metro North aswell




  • Registered Users Posts: 887 ✭✭✭ Telchak


    Projected passengers of 36million :confused: Not bloody likely :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    Telchak wrote: »
    Projected passengers of 36million :confused: Not bloody likely :eek:
    Over what time period? The next 5,10,20,50,100,200 years?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,133 Stonewolf


    I like that bridge, actually, I like the architecture for the project in general, it shows a bit of vision rather than the usual "sure we'll stick down some concrete and it'll be grand".

    I see that unlike IE, metro will have actual grade separated junctions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 DWCommuter


    Is the cost of that MN video included in the overall cost of the project or is it a PPP job that we have to repay over 30 years via 10 cent per view?:D


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 BrianD


    Classic example of poor infrastructure planning. The real reason that this is being built is a sop to the people who live in the sprawl that was created by bad and corrupt planning. The green line extension was developer driven with plenty of levies, it seems like this is some sort of bizarre IOU to the past. Mind you the boys back then would probably have got it for free!

    There's no strategic vision or reason for this route. Transport 21 doesn't even try to provide one other than describe it as a "key project". Then again there isn't much strategic thinking involved behind Transport 21. If there was then we would have a great transport plan that is based on the present and future planned development of Dublin and the population would what they are getting and the tangible benefits of same.

    I don't know why they don't call a spade a spade call in a LUAS. Then again Metro sounds sexier.

    BTW when these "metros" were first proposed, I recall reading that Phase 1 would start in Tallaght but it would require a further phase to complete the full Tallaght - Airport (vanity word comes to mind) route. Is this still the case? At this stage Metro North would be operating. Seemed bizarre that they would build from Tallaght northwards rather than the airport south. Haven't heard anything more on that so I look forward to the Myth/Reality booklet. Good to see the Bertie Bowl stop still on the map though.

    On a more serious note, there used to be a group proposing a Circle Line route. How different was it to Metro West?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    darkman2 wrote: »
    No, it's over the spec of Luas by the looks of this new vid

    That vid only shows major crossings. I recall hearing it would be built as Luas with capability to upgraded to Metro in the future - like the Green Line has allegedly been done.

    The drawings on the MW page back this up, I saw quite a lot of onstreet running and some clear interfacing with traffic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 T Corolla


    I would believe that Metro West will cost less than Metro North. Currently there is approx 50% of metro/luas projects completed with citywest extension to be running next May. This probably will flag the start of Metro North.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭ eia340600


    What's the projected journey time from Tallaght to Dardistown?It can't be very short by the looks of that meandering route.I's imagine that's why it has to be grade seperated for the main junctions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 887 ✭✭✭ Telchak


    Have there ever been any cost projections of this?

    I'm guessing the cost per kilometre of most of the route won't be that much above the Luas Green line extension at €40million/km. At 25km that works out at €1billion.

    But there's also a few expensive looking structures along the route such as the Belgard stop, the Quaryvale underpass, and the Liffey bridge. These could put it up to maybe €1.1 or €1.2 billion? Besides having a general rail fetish, I'm really starting to get less enthusiastic about this project :( That kind of money could do wonders if it was put into more city centre focused projects instead.

    I'm not saying the line should never be built, but I can't see it being needed anytime in the next couple of decades as the size of employment in the city's suburbs outside the M50 doesn't require that much travel capacity. Even as an increase, Dublin Bus will soon have buses travelling between Tallaght and Blanchardstown every 15 to 30 mins.This is nowhere near the kind of numbers that could sustain a light rail line like this :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭ Heartbreak Hank


    The Railway Order website has been populated with drawings etc.

    Link


  • Registered Users Posts: 947 ✭✭✭ xper


    The Railway Order website has been populated with drawings etc.
    Link
    Ploughed through the drawings. Some observations:

    The Liffey Bridge looks interesting, a landmark feature a la the Luas's Dundrum Bridge, but different. I think between that, the M1 Boyne Valley Bridge and a couple of other examples that we have 'done' the white, single-tower, cable-stay model so good to see something a little different than anything we have already. It features two pedestrian levels, one drooping down following the main support cables with a platform under the rail deck above the river. Gone fishin'?.

    There are several turnbacks along the route, all orientated from/to the north. I think a phased build/operation from the northern end has been planned?

    The depot is located close to Dublin Bus's Harristown depot. I wonder will this be reconsidered now that the Metro North depot will need a new location. There seems to be a strong case and plenty of room for a single large depot nearer Dardistown.

    The Metro North/West tracks meet in a full delta junction with grade-seperated turns for all directions. SSG-Blanchardstown service anyone?

    There seems to be a very large number of Park & Ride spaces scattered along the northern M50 stops. Again, SSG-Blanchardstown service and competition for M3-Pace?

    Curious mix of grade seperation with respect to roads. On the northern stretch from Dardistown to Blanchardstown, there are several viaducts over major and minor roads. After that though, it is nearly all at street level with major road realingment work from Liffey Valley to Tallaght. It even crosses the planned slip roads at the new Newlands Cross junction (Red Cow II?). Lots of tight turns too. I can't see this being very fast. The run through Blanchardstwon Shpping Centre looks particularly fugly.

    Straight across Castleknock Golf Course! I can only guess the club would get hold of an adjacent land bank to reconfigure the course.


    Of course, the chances of this all being built in my lifetime are less than 100% :rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,044 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    xper wrote: »
    It features two pedestrian levels, one drooping down following the main support cables with a platform under the rail deck above the river. Gone fishin'?.

    Suspended under deck pedestrian bridge? Been there, done that. And in Donegal at that..

    http://www.siac.ie/files/20071024122236cathfalls.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,157 Johnny Utah


    Metro West should be dropped imo. The route simply has too many twists and turns, which makes it slow. Also, if MN was shortened because it was passing through undeveloped land past Swords, then surely MW is a non-runner as it meanders through some empty fields in North County Dublin.

    If we are to have a 'circular line', then it should be inside the M50 and it should be mostly underground.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭ Cool Mo D


    Metro West should be dropped imo. The route simply has too many twists and turns, which makes it slow. Also, if MN was shortened because it was passing through undeveloped land past Swords, then surely MW is a non-runner as it meanders through some empty fields in North County Dublin.

    If we are to have a 'circular line', then it should be inside the M50 and it should be mostly underground.

    I think that the main structural works for Metro West should be built, then run it as a busway. It would be almost as good as Metro West, for a much reduced cost.


Advertisement