Metro West Railway Order

Van.Bosch

Just saw that the RPA have submitted an application today for a railway order. Surprised as I thought this project was scrapped/shelved??

Sponge Bob

I suppose that gets the consultants another year or two of work out of it. I also thought the RPA was supposed to be abolished a few years back in favour of a dublin transport megaquango.

sdanseo

http://www.dublinmetrowest.ie/

Not much there yet.

strassenwo!f

In the cities with the best public transport systems that I've seen, like, for example Munich, Frankfurt or Prague, they have tended to develop their systems in the following way:

1. Get people into the city;
2. Get people across the city
3. Get people around the city

I wonder if this application isn't perhaps just a teensy-weensy bit premature?

KC61

As far as I am aware the RPA are under instruction by the DoT to bring the various planned projects to railway order stage.

Zebra3

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1021/1224281622547.html

FF pushing this just as their time in power is up?

BluntGuy

MW railway order application isn't really of interest from the point of view of a timescale. We know they were given money to keep this chugging along as it was specified in the budget. It won't be starting until 2018 at the earliest, if ever.

What is of interest timescale-wise is MN's application. A decision is expected some time this month, and "this month" is drawing to a close.

loyatemu

waste of time and money - it won't be built in its proposed form.

LeinsterDub

loyatemu wrote: »

waste of time and money - it won't be built in its proposed form.

Care to elaborate? Why is a waste of time and money and what form would you suggest it takes?

loyatemu

Its not in the current capital plan, therefore its unlikely to even start before 2015 at the earliest - I can't honestly believe that in the 5-8 years it takes for funding to (possibly) become available, somebody won't cry "stop" or some new masterplan for the capital will be drawn up. Basically its highly likely some future govt or transport authority will scrap it because:

• It serves a lot of open space and industrial estates that are now unlikely ever to be redeveloped in the way envisioned when the route was first sketched on the back of a napkin.
• While it does serve some populated areas, there's not enough potential traffic between these areas to justify it

munchkin_utd

the one advantage of getting this railway order is that it preserves the path from being built upon

even if it ends up being an express busway for bus/ tram thingies eventually, it has more of a chance of happening if a continuous path is reserved, rather than the irish way of assuming "it'll be grand", plan nothing, and in 10 years time have to purchase swathes of land at shocking cost because the land was subsequently rezoned by a councilor related to a land owner as goldmine development land.

LeinsterDub

loyatemu wrote: »

Its not in the current capital plan, therefore its unlikely to even start before 2015 at the earliest - I can't honestly believe that in the 5-8 years it takes for funding to (possibly) become available, somebody won't cry "stop" or some new masterplan for the capital will be drawn up. Basically its highly likely some future govt or transport authority will scrap it because:

• It serves a lot of open space and industrial estates that are now unlikely ever to be redeveloped in the way envisioned when the route was first sketched on the back of a napkin.
• While it does serve some populated areas, there's not enough potential traffic between these areas to justify it

Not sure of the volumes expect and won't like to guess.
However I agree when you look at http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/upload/Image/Metro_West_alignment_1108_large.jpg . Pretty much the entire north-side stretch seeams to be on the wrong side of the M50. A link up with Luas D in broombridge and up on to Carba, Finglas, Ballymun and link with MN would appear on paper at least to make more sence

LeinsterDub

munchkin_utd wrote: »

the one advantage of getting this railway order is that it preserves the path from being built upon

even if it ends up being an express busway for bus/ tram thingies eventually, it has more of a chance of happening if a continuous path is reserved, rather than the irish way of assuming "it'll be grand", plan nothing, and in 10 years time have to purchase swathes of land at shocking cost because the land was subsequently rezoned by a councilor related to a land owner as goldmine development land.

In London they have something call 'route safeguarding'. Does anyone know how much detail they going to before a 'route safeguarding' is issued ?

dowlingm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Care to elaborate? Why is a waste of time and money and what form would you suggest it takes?

An orbital LUAS (more appropriate to probable capacity), Were Line D extended to the LUAS West alignment then it's possible that the Line A, D and F depots would be able to handle the LUAS West services without building yet another depot.

loyatemu

dowlingm wrote: »

An orbital LUAS (more appropriate to probable capacity), Were Line D extended to the LUAS West alignment then it's possible that the Line A, D and F depots would be able to handle the LUAS West services without building yet another depot.

afaik it is planned to be built to Luas spec - there are at-grade crossings, on-street sections etc. The Metro name is slightly misleading and is only being used because it connects up with MN.

Telchak

loyatemu wrote: »

afaik it is planned to be built to Luas spec - there are at-grade crossings, on-street sections etc. The Metro name is slightly misleading and is only being used because it connects up with MN.

I think it's actually somewhere in between.The platform length, power system and other technical specifications will be the same as Metro North, with interchangeable rolling stock. The line segregation however will be somewhat more similar to Luas, and the track will link with the Luas in Tallaght for some reason

darkman2

No, it's over the spec of Luas by the looks of this new vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5prJe0l7M64

And a new one for Metro North aswell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgwYT_4Pr9k

Telchak

Projected passengers of 36million Not bloody likely :eek:

LeinsterDub

Telchak wrote: »

Projected passengers of 36million Not bloody likely :eek:

Over what time period? The next 5,10,20,50,100,200 years?

Stonewolf

I like that bridge, actually, I like the architecture for the project in general, it shows a bit of vision rather than the usual "sure we'll stick down some concrete and it'll be grand".

I see that unlike IE, metro will have actual grade separated junctions.

DWCommuter

Is the cost of that MN video included in the overall cost of the project or is it a PPP job that we have to repay over 30 years via 10 cent per view?:D

BrianD

Classic example of poor infrastructure planning. The real reason that this is being built is a sop to the people who live in the sprawl that was created by bad and corrupt planning. The green line extension was developer driven with plenty of levies, it seems like this is some sort of bizarre IOU to the past. Mind you the boys back then would probably have got it for free!

There's no strategic vision or reason for this route. Transport 21 doesn't even try to provide one other than describe it as a "key project". Then again there isn't much strategic thinking involved behind Transport 21. If there was then we would have a great transport plan that is based on the present and future planned development of Dublin and the population would what they are getting and the tangible benefits of same.

I don't know why they don't call a spade a spade call in a LUAS. Then again Metro sounds sexier.

BTW when these "metros" were first proposed, I recall reading that Phase 1 would start in Tallaght but it would require a further phase to complete the full Tallaght - Airport (vanity word comes to mind) route. Is this still the case? At this stage Metro North would be operating. Seemed bizarre that they would build from Tallaght northwards rather than the airport south. Haven't heard anything more on that so I look forward to the Myth/Reality booklet. Good to see the Bertie Bowl stop still on the map though.

On a more serious note, there used to be a group proposing a Circle Line route. How different was it to Metro West?

BluntGuy

darkman2 wrote: »

No, it's over the spec of Luas by the looks of this new vid

That vid only shows major crossings. I recall hearing it would be built as Luas with capability to upgraded to Metro in the future - like the Green Line has allegedly been done.

The drawings on the MW page back this up, I saw quite a lot of onstreet running and some clear interfacing with traffic.

T Corolla

I would believe that Metro West will cost less than Metro North. Currently there is approx 50% of metro/luas projects completed with citywest extension to be running next May. This probably will flag the start of Metro North.

eia340600

What's the projected journey time from Tallaght to Dardistown?It can't be very short by the looks of that meandering route.I's imagine that's why it has to be grade seperated for the main junctions.

Telchak

Have there ever been any cost projections of this?

I'm guessing the cost per kilometre of most of the route won't be that much above the Luas Green line extension at €40million/km. At 25km that works out at €1billion.

But there's also a few expensive looking structures along the route such as the Belgard stop, the Quaryvale underpass, and the Liffey bridge. These could put it up to maybe €1.1 or €1.2 billion? Besides having a general rail fetish, I'm really starting to get less enthusiastic about this project That kind of money could do wonders if it was put into more city centre focused projects instead.

I'm not saying the line should never be built, but I can't see it being needed anytime in the next couple of decades as the size of employment in the city's suburbs outside the M50 doesn't require that much travel capacity. Even as an increase, Dublin Bus will soon have buses travelling between Tallaght and Blanchardstown every 15 to 30 mins.This is nowhere near the kind of numbers that could sustain a light rail line like this :rolleyes:

Heartbreak Hank

The Railway Order website has been populated with drawings etc.

Link

xper

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

The Railway Order website has been populated with drawings etc.
Link

Ploughed through the drawings. Some observations:

The Liffey Bridge looks interesting, a landmark feature a la the Luas's Dundrum Bridge, but different. I think between that, the M1 Boyne Valley Bridge and a couple of other examples that we have 'done' the white, single-tower, cable-stay model so good to see something a little different than anything we have already. It features two pedestrian levels, one drooping down following the main support cables with a platform under the rail deck above the river. Gone fishin'?.

There are several turnbacks along the route, all orientated from/to the north. I think a phased build/operation from the northern end has been planned?

The depot is located close to Dublin Bus's Harristown depot. I wonder will this be reconsidered now that the Metro North depot will need a new location. There seems to be a strong case and plenty of room for a single large depot nearer Dardistown.

The Metro North/West tracks meet in a full delta junction with grade-seperated turns for all directions. SSG-Blanchardstown service anyone?

There seems to be a very large number of Park & Ride spaces scattered along the northern M50 stops. Again, SSG-Blanchardstown service and competition for M3-Pace?

Curious mix of grade seperation with respect to roads. On the northern stretch from Dardistown to Blanchardstown, there are several viaducts over major and minor roads. After that though, it is nearly all at street level with major road realingment work from Liffey Valley to Tallaght. It even crosses the planned slip roads at the new Newlands Cross junction (Red Cow II?). Lots of tight turns too. I can't see this being very fast. The run through Blanchardstwon Shpping Centre looks particularly fugly.

Straight across Castleknock Golf Course! I can only guess the club would get hold of an adjacent land bank to reconfigure the course.


Of course, the chances of this all being built in my lifetime are less than 100% :rolleyes:

L1011

xper wrote: »

It features two pedestrian levels, one drooping down following the main support cables with a platform under the rail deck above the river. Gone fishin'?.

Suspended under deck pedestrian bridge? Been there, done that. And in Donegal at that..

http://www.siac.ie/files/20071024122236cathfalls.jpg

Johnny Utah

Metro West should be dropped imo. The route simply has too many twists and turns, which makes it slow. Also, if MN was shortened because it was passing through undeveloped land past Swords, then surely MW is a non-runner as it meanders through some empty fields in North County Dublin.

If we are to have a 'circular line', then it should be inside the M50 and it should be mostly underground.

Cool Mo D

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Metro West should be dropped imo. The route simply has too many twists and turns, which makes it slow. Also, if MN was shortened because it was passing through undeveloped land past Swords, then surely MW is a non-runner as it meanders through some empty fields in North County Dublin.

If we are to have a 'circular line', then it should be inside the M50 and it should be mostly underground.

I think that the main structural works for Metro West should be built, then run it as a busway. It would be almost as good as Metro West, for a much reduced cost.

greyed

Is elevated track as expensive as a tunnel? Or is it a matter of visual impact?

runway16

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I think that the main structural works for Metro West should be built, then run it as a busway. It would be almost as good as Metro West, for a much reduced cost.

Can we not move past the bus thing in this city?

People dont like busses. It is not something that will make people abandon their cars. Rail will. People like rail: the comfort, dependability, lack of being thrown all over the place going over manholes ;-), etc etc.

Busses dont cut it, they never have and they never will do.

Pete_Cavan

runway16 wrote: »

Can we not move past the bus thing in this city?

People dont like busses. It is not something that will make people abandon their cars. Rail will. People like rail: the comfort, dependability, lack of being thrown all over the place going over manholes ;-), etc etc.

Busses dont cut it, they never have and they never will do.

BRT does cut it, which is a viable alternative to rail for MW.

Transportuser09

I'm not really a fan of the guided bus way concept when a rail based link can be provided but they do have their merits. If there more incentives (not an outright ban though) to keep reduce the amount of cars in the city centre then I don't see why buses can't have their uses. At the end of the day we'll never have rail/metro/tram links to every corner of the Dublin area.

runway16

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

BRT does cut it, which is a viable alternative to rail for MW.

Yes, but try selling it. As I said, people do not like busses, they only take them out of necessity, usually if they dont have a car.

Telchak

I don't think people's preference for rail over bus will be able to be used as justification for the price this thing will cost.This route can't take the kind of numbers rail needs to be profitable, and won't for many decades I suspect.

runway16

Telchak wrote: »

I don't think people's preference for rail over bus will be able to be used as justification for the price this thing will cost.This route can't take the kind of numbers rail needs to be profitable, and won't for many decades I suspect.

I disagree re the numbers. The volume of commuting between the Western Suburbs is enormous.

Re being bus or rail, there is no point building anything if people wont use it - its not a matter of preference. It's will they use it or wont they.

Telchak

runway16 wrote: »

I disagree re the numbers. The volume of commuting between the Western Suburbs is enormous.

Not sure if I can believe that =/ I'm sure Metro West would increase the this, but I can't imagine the combined numbers of people currently using 17As, 76s, 210, 220, 239 is anything near the kind of numbers on Dublin's busier bus corridors. I think this is a billion euro that should go to any other Luas or Metro line first. The extension of the outer ring road to Blanchardstown would make buses and private transport have more than enough capacity for a long time IMO.

mgmt

Is there a case for the Metro West trams to be allowed down the Maynooth and Kildare Dart lines? Like what will happen with the Metro West trams going down the Metro North line. Obviously the lines would need to be upgraded to dual track. It would allow a complete integrated system.

Telchak

mgmt wrote: »

Is there a case for the Metro West trams to be allowed down the Maynooth and Kildare Dart lines?

They wouldn't fit on the track :P

mgmt

Telchak wrote: »

They wouldn't fit on the track :P

Like I said you would need dual track.

Telchak

mgmt wrote: »

Like I said you would need dual track.

Ah, sorry I misunderstood what you meant by dual track [:

DWCommuter

greyed wrote: »

Is elevated track as expensive as a tunnel? Or is it a matter of visual impact?

Visual impact.

DWCommuter

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I'm not really a fan of the guided bus way concept when a rail based link can be provided but they do have their merits. If there more incentives (not an outright ban though) to keep reduce the amount of cars in the city centre then I don't see why buses can't have their uses. At the end of the day we'll never have rail/metro/tram links to every corner of the Dublin area.

An interesting post that contains good thinking, but its very on the fence in its content.

Why would you favour a rail based link over a guided busway?

DWCommuter

runway16 wrote: »

Yes, but try selling it. As I said, people do not like busses, they only take them out of necessity, usually if they dont have a car.

If you are talking about your typical DB double decker, then yes I agree with you. But a BRT is an entirely different beast.

dowlingm

greyed wrote: »

Is elevated track as expensive as a tunnel? Or is it a matter of visual impact?

Noise is also an issue.

As for discussing BRT vs metro, can those pro-BRT please outline whether the busway would be fully ROW over its length, what the specified PPDPH level would be (passengers per direction per hour) and where the routing for it would be so we can gauge the likely reaction of central Dublin to the removal of traffic lanes?

markpb

Telchak wrote: »

Not sure if I can believe that =/ I'm sure Metro West would increase the this, but I can't imagine the combined numbers of people currently using 17As, 76s, 210, 220, 239 is anything near the kind of numbers on Dublin's busier bus corridors

You're right - people making those journeys don't take the bus because orbital bus routes are generally quite poor whereas the M50 is quite good these days.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

You're right - people making those journeys don't take the bus because orbital bus routes are generally quite poor whereas the M50 is quite good these days.

The fundamental problem with orbital services is that most individual orbital journeys differ with different starting and finishing points, unlike the radial routes where most people are going to somewhere on the route itself.

This is what makes designing these bus routes difficult as for them to be any way economically viable they have to serve major locations along the route.

That is changing somewhat with the impending redesign of the 76 group and the 75 being split into two routes.

Telchak

Updated animation video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fCjR5XvZUI

Telchak

Minister freezes planning for Metro West

Metro West has been put on hold indefinitely after the Minister for Transport suspended the planning process.

Leo Varadkar said funding to construct the new railway will not be available for the foreseeable future.

In a statement, the Minister said until financial credibility is restored, the international debt funding market would be reluctant to lend funds to finance projects in Ireland, and the exchequer will not be able to make its contribution to the cost in the foreseeable future.

Mr Varadkar said: "Acting on the advice of the National Transport Authority (NTA), I have instructed the Railway Procurement Agency to withdraw its application for a Railway Order from An Bord Pleanála".

He said Metro West has always been considered a long-term project and many of the new communities that it will to serve have not materialised due to the collapse in home building.

However, Minister Varadkar did not rule out the project completely saying it will be examined again when the country's finances have improved.

The Metro West line was due to go from Tallaght through Clondalkin, Liffey Valley and Blanchardstown, and link up with the planned Metro North line to end at the airport.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0925/metro.html

Seems crazy to withdraw the applicaion at this point, will it really cost that much more to finish this last part of the process? It would probably have been quite a while before the order was granted in any case.