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Tubro Petol vs Turbo Diesel
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19-10-2010 4:52pm#1
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What type of e46? I am sure a 335d would flatten a 318 e46 but not a e46 M3
well considering this is a 535d which weighs a bit more that an m3 and 335d it still does this.0 -
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Wow thats some evidence a straight line drag race with cars driven by amateurs
. Its also a rolling start and a not a proper race start. Throw in some decent drivers and a track and then see what happens.
After 15-20 laps when the brakes in your standard diesel 535 go to the floor I would know what car I would like to be in.
who said anything about a track and brakes(as if the 535d brakes are made of choclate) the op was talking about bhp etc on a rolling road. usuable performance he said eg 40 to 80 mph
and a 335d coupe would fair not to bad on a track with 1000 spent of suspension and the other 500 on a remap IMO0 -
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who said anything about a track and brakes(as if the 535d brakes are made of choclate) the op was talking about bhp etc on a rolling road. usuable performance he said eg 40 to 80 mph
and a 335d coupe would fair not to bad on a track with 1000 spent of suspension and the other 500 on a remap IMO
Why do they bother making an M3 in that case?
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The OP said about useable performance which if I had a high powered car would mean a track. I have driven a BMW 130i and a 330d around a track and the Diesel was a good bit of the pace. You are constantly having to shift cogs to keep it in the powerband. Not to mention that diesel powerplants normally weight more their petrol equivalents so the tend to understeer more.Henry Ford III wrote: »Why do they bother making an M3 in that case?
usuable performance in my book is something that will do 35mpg normal driving and will pass 3 cars in a couple of seconds usually at speeds of 40mph to 80. if i wanted a brilliant track car id get a csl or something, not very practical in normal conditions tbh. I'd be alot more worried about oversteer to be honest in a BMW. BMW diesel engines are made from aluminum as far as i know so are very light in fairness.
They make the m3 for people who like petrol high revving NA sport coupes.0 -
Just some overtaking manouver comparisons, all figures taken from SportAuto for consistency.
The MPS has pretty short gearing so is paricularly good at in gear times
So the moral of the story is turbo petrols can play the muscular overtaking moves just as well as a turbo diesel
4th gear . . . . . 535d (272ps) . . . . 535d (286ps) . . Octavia RS (200ps) . . 3 MPS (260PS) . . 335i (300ps)
80-120km/h . . . . . 5,5s . . . . . . . . . . . 5,1s . . . . . . . . . 5,7s . . . . . . . . . . 4,3s . . . . . . . . . . 5,5s
80-160km/h . . . . . 11,7s . . . . . . . . . . 10,9s . . . . . . . . 13,1s . . . . . . . . . 10,2s . . . . . . . . . . 11,4s
5th gear
80-120km/h . . . . . 7,2s . . . . . . . . . . . 6,9s . . . . . . . . . 7,3s . . . . . . . . . . . 5,5s . . . . . . . . . . 6,5s
80-160km/h . . . . . 15,9s . . . . . . . . . . 14,6s . . . . . . . . 16,5s . . . . . . . . . . 11,1s . . . . . . . . . . 13,7s
6th gear
80-120km/h . . . . . . - . . . . . . . . . . . . 9,5s . . . . . . . . . 9,1s . . . . . . . . . . 8,4s . . . . . . . . . . 7,9s
80-160km/h . . . . . . - . . . . . . . . . . . 19,8s . . . . . . . . 21,0s . . . . . . . . . . 16,2s . . . . . . . . . . 16,7s0 -
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Does a car that does 0-60 in less than 4.5sec but could not go around a track to save its life not a performance car?
Sounds like you are describing an American muscle car,throw loads of power at a chassis neglect to give it any suspension or drivability (sp) and have the cheek to call it a performance car.
I love these threads there should be a section on boards just for them,true modern Diesels have come along leaps and bounds but give me a free reving petrol engine any day (my last car was a 6 cylinder petrol rocket,my current car is a 6 cylinder diesel rocking car ) 0 -
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3.0d in the beemer can put out 290bhp 600nm or torque with little more than a good proper remap for what 400 euro?,very cheap bhp. 335d can be put up to 350 bhp and 740nm of torque with a remap.
can't think of much petrol yoks that would give ya 35 odd mpg with that performance.
a 335d remapped would blow an e46 of the road.
Road tax is over 1500e so mpg doesnt come into it much, when 2.0-2.3 turbo petrols are half that to tax, 750euro buys alot of fuel.
Yeah thats alot of power from the 535d, crazy power.
So what will be faster with 1.5k thrown at it?
30-70mph
50-75mph
50-100mph
50-120mphconneem-TT wrote: »Just some overtaking manouver comparisons, all figures taken from SportAuto for consistency.
The MPS has pretty short gearing so is paricularly good at in gear times
So the moral of the story is turbo petrols can play the muscular overtaking moves just as well as a turbo diesel
4th gear . . . . . 535d (272ps) . . . . 535d (286ps) . . Octavia RS (200ps) . . 3 MPS (260PS) . . 335i (300ps)
80-120km/h . . . . . 5,5s . . . . . . . . . . . 5,1s . . . . . . . . . 5,7s . . . . . . . . . . 4,3s . . . . . . . . . . 5,5s
80-160km/h . . . . . 11,7s . . . . . . . . . . 10,9s . . . . . . . . 13,1s . . . . . . . . . 10,2s . . . . . . . . . . 11,4s
5th gear
80-120km/h . . . . . 7,2s . . . . . . . . . . . 6,9s . . . . . . . . . 7,3s . . . . . . . . . . . 5,5s . . . . . . . . . . 6,5s
80-160km/h . . . . . 15,9s . . . . . . . . . . 14,6s . . . . . . . . 16,5s . . . . . . . . . . 11,1s . . . . . . . . . . 13,7s
6th gear
80-120km/h . . . . . . - . . . . . . . . . . . . 9,5s . . . . . . . . . 9,1s . . . . . . . . . . 8,4s . . . . . . . . . . 7,9s
80-160km/h . . . . . . - . . . . . . . . . . . 19,8s . . . . . . . . 21,0s . . . . . . . . . . 16,2s . . . . . . . . . . 16,7s
Looks like my Mps is the quickest out of the lot in gear.
But what about all cars are equal, all in the optimum gear/rev range.eg an Integra Dc5 is pretty quick when its firing at 7000rpm.
Those tests are not fair imo, because the 3.0 petrol bmw should be faster than my mps with all that power and high rpm
Surely the 535d puts up a better fight against the two powerful petrols ( Mazda, Bmw 330i )0 -
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Looks like my Mps is the quickest out of the lot in gear.
But what about all cars are equal, all in the optimum gear/rev range.eg an Integra Dc5 is pretty quick when its firing at 7000rpm.
Those tests are not fair imo, because the 3.0 petrol bmw should be faster than my mps with all that power and high rpm
Surely the 535d puts up a better fight against the two powerful petrols ( Mazda, Bmw 330i )
We know that petrols perfom very well when wrung out like in your Integra example but my post was responding to the "useable performance" post above mine. I was just showing that turbo petrols offer the same benefits but also with the option to wring it out if you are in the mood. That is why I chose the 4th and 6th gear acceleration numbers over two different ranges to see the flexibility of performance
Your MPS has very short gearing so you get ~170km/h out of 4th for example and the 335i will get 164km/h out of 3rd, shorter gearing is good for acceleration but means you have to shift more often and have a high crusing rpm.
Good torque can make a car fast yes, but a peaky torque can make a car feel very fast whilst it is only nippy i.e. Golf TDI's. (the twin turbo x35d overcomes this peakyness and is genuinely quick for a big saloon) You get the woah take up in acceleration you pick up a bit of speed and feel the extra speed wheras for example the first time I got a ride in a Z3M coupe the guy nailed it in 2nd/3rd and it just kept pulling stronger and stronger to the redline (due to the torque not falling off and taking advantage of the revs), I thought about the way it felt and feel the correct way to describe the difference in the feeling of acceleration of the two, the TDI would be like the feeling you get when a plane drops a bit and you get butterfly's but the Z3M would be like an uncontrolable bowl movement, it just kept pulling stronger and followed through :pac:0 -
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captainspeed wrote: »Diesel is a necessary evil with CO2 based VRT and taxation not to mention the cost of fuel.
If fuel did not cost so much, then it would be very hard to make a case for diesel, especially as they are so complex and prone to failure.
Modern petrol engines are catching up with torque and mpg thanks to turbocharging and direct injection.
Petrols won't have DPFs or DMFs(bar a few very high performance models) either to go expensively wrong.
While diesel has come a hell of a long way in terms of power, torque, even fuel economy, that progress has come at a big cost and that cost is reliability.
With the new EU6 regulations coming in 2014 diesel will be so expensive that it will only make sense to buy diesels in the Mondeo size and bigger, and even then there will be a case to be made for buying the petrol if you do low enough mileage.
These new rules will make petrol hybrids less expensive relatively speaking and that will mean they will finally start to take off in Europe.
The big drawback of petrol hybrids at the moment is the cost but the gap between a petrol hybrid and a diesel will close dramatically over the next few years as diesels will need even more expensive gadgets to get them through Euro 6.
It does make sense if you do mega mileage but diesel is priced artificially low here vs petrol due to it having a lower amount of duty. However if there was ever a CO2 tax put on road fuels diesel should have more due to the fact that per litre burned it releases more CO2 0 -
Diesel in Europe is often 10-15 cent a litre cheaper than petrol too, exaggerating the difference in cost to run between the two fuels, however they are saying that even in the continent when the new rules come in it will be more expensive to run diesel for people who buy smaller cars.
Petrol is a dead duck here for the time being because of the CO2 based VRT system which makes diesels hardly any dearer to buy(and in some cases cheaper), however that will change as petrol engines get more efficient and get closer to diesels on CO2 (much and all as I despise the Toyota Corolla, it is interesting to note that both the petrol and diesel models are in band
but the new rules will push up the price of diesel cars by as much as €1,000, with larger cars that kind of a premium is not significant, but on the likes of Focuses and Fiestas that represents a large per centage jump in price making diesel far less attractive for smaller cars.
Of course if fewer and fewer diesels are being made, this increases the unit cost of making a diesel engine, meaning that the premium for buying a diesel will increase even further and thereby eroding the market share of diesel even further.0 -
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says who? Not Audi. Not Peugeot. Not BMW. Or are they all wrong ?I dont want to sound like a smarta** but the very name performance says it should.
Exactly: 'performance' doesn't tell us anything, other than it's not 'standard'. Maybe it's a bit quicker. Maybe it has a better engine. Or gearbox. Or shocks. Or wheels. But as a catch-all, it's useless. 'Performance' means performance to you, as you'd use it. Otherwise, we'd all buy..........racing cars. Which do belong on the track.To be fair a performance car should be an all rounder.
You can get drift cars, drag racers, off road 4x4's, rally cross and open wheel single seater track cars.
A performance car (to me) should be an all round quick car. Fast in a straight line but more importantly it should be able to handle itself correctly.I would not expect a normal 535d, not to mention a remapped one to be reliable. ...In short, a big power 535d will break.I'd still be of the opinion that the main advantage of diesel is that it's cheaper to run, I don't think I could live with the thought of having gone with the cheaper rather then the better option. In my experience turbo petrol engines in terms of drivability are just miles better to drive, most diesel turbo engines are just trying to emulate the performance you would get from the equivilent normally asperated petrol engine with the same cc.God I love the petrol vs. diesel debate. If fuel was free nobody would drive a diesel, after that its just a matter of economicscaptainspeed wrote: »Diesel is a necessary evil with CO2 based VRT and taxation not to mention the cost of fuel.
If fuel did not cost so much, then it would be very hard to make a case for diesel, especially as they are so complex and prone to failure.
Modern petrol engines are catching up with torque and mpg thanks to turbocharging and direct injection.
Petrols won't have DPFs or DMFs(bar a few very high performance models) either to go expensively wrong, although the direct injection could well give trouble.
Don't get me wrong for a lot of cars you'd be mad to buy the petrol engine; the likes of a Skoda Superb or a big saloon with an automatic gearbox are ideal for a decently powered diesel but not every car needs to be diesel, a Scirocco or a Peugeot RCZ should only be available with revvy petrol engines, diesels should not exist for these kind of cars!
While diesel has come a hell of a long way in terms of power, torque, even fuel economy, that progress has come at a big cost and that cost is reliability.
With the new EU6 regulations coming in 2014 diesel will be so expensive that it will only make sense to buy diesels in the Mondeo size and bigger, and even then there will be a case to be made for buying the petrol if you do low enough mileage.
These new rules will make petrol hybrids less expensive relatively speaking and that will mean they will finally start to take off in Europe.
The big drawback of petrol hybrids at the moment is the cost but the gap between a petrol hybrid and a diesel will close dramatically over the next few years as diesels will need even more expensive gadgets to get them through Euro 6.conneem-TT wrote: »It does make sense if you do mega mileage but diesel is priced artificially low here vs petrol due to it having a lower amount of duty. However if there was ever a CO2 tax put on road fuels diesel should have more due to the fact that per litre burned it releases more CO2
As ye are pointing out: you get nothing for nothing. People are buying diesel's with 1983 mentality: i.e., that they all do 50mpg, do 250,000miles and you get all your money back when you sell it.
Meanwhile, back on earth, they've had the bollocks tuned off them to match petrols' power output - so use MORE diesel - they are wired and DPF'd up the wazoo to meet emissions standards - which means it'll end in tears, eventually, when the dashboard winky-winky lights come on - and they eat turbo's for breakfast. And need morev expensive servicing and repairs.
Meanwhile, petrol has soldiered on getting that little bit better all the time, to the extent that almost no-one has noticed. A 530i is, in fact, a hidden gem - most of the kudos, none of the trauma.
And of course, we have the 'X' factor: Irish arse-about face motor tax.Ode To The Motorist
“And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road”
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He is a power band of xud 306 mechanical engine with nowt more than and intercooler and some fuelling mods running 30psi ish, it will rev to 7k and is nowhere near finished its just a rough dyno to see progress
that is indeed 110 bhp more than stock and alot more to come, just to show diesels can be revvy if you want them to be
This graph drops off due to the operator refusing to rev it as he was a 4200k rpm limit believer!
Heres the run, there is loads of smoke as its a work in progress and this dyno was meant as a guide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcCa_HAMuWs0 -
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