How far would you take your atheism? Facing a criminal trial

drkpower

I have seen this issue touched on previously, but not this particular aspect.

I recently had to give relatively benign evidence in a case I was involved in. It was in the course of my employment (law) and Im well-used to court rooms, advocating in front of judges etc. But Ive never been on the other side of the courtroom. And, I have to say, the experience was an eye-opener - while I would always have said I would probably affirm, given the choice, when presented with the Bible, on this occasion, while it crossed my mind, I wouldnt have dreamed of saying 'actually im an atheist, can I affirm please'; there was something so intimidating about being up there that any thoughts of 'rocking the boat' went out of my mind. And as I say, while it was an important case, my evidence wasnt all that critical.

Now, mind you, I am not especially bothered about oaths etc, I tend to view them as empty formulae, so I wouldnt be 'militant' about this. But it got me thinking, faced with a really really intimidating atmosphere and circumstance (at risk of prison), would you specifically choose to affirm in court, or would you instead simply do the Bible thing and get on with it?

Be honest now..........

(Edit: Apologies for my idiocy, but Mods, can you edit my poll to say Affirm or Swear on Bible?)


EDIT TO CLARIFY POLL CHOICES!

So, how about this:
Q. If in court charged with a criminal offence with a potential prison sentence, would you:

A1. Affirm
A2. Swear on the Bible
A3. The poll is still confusing.....;)

sink

Sitting here in my comfortable office chair at work, it's easy to say I would affirm, so I will.

Beruthiel

drkpower wrote: »

I wouldnt have dreamed of saying 'actually im an atheist

I'd have no problem saying that.

Ghost Buster

drkpower wrote: »

I have seen this issue touched on previously, but not this particular aspect.

I recently had to give relatively benign evidence in a case I was involved in. It was in the course of my employment (law) and Im well-used to court rooms, advocating in front of judges etc. But Ive never been on the other side of the courtroom. And, I have to say, the experience was an eye-opener - while I would always have said I would probably affirm, given the choice, when presented with the Bible, on this occasion, while it crossed my mind, I wouldnt have dreamed of saying 'actually im an atheist, can I affirm please'; there was something so intimidating about being up there that any thoughts of 'rocking the boat' went out of my mind. And as I say, while it was an important case, my evidence wasnt all that critical.

Now, mind you, I am not especially bothered about oaths etc, I tend to view them as empty formulae, so I wouldnt be 'militant' about this. But it got me thinking, faced with a really really intimidating atmosphere and circumstance (at risk of prison), would you specifically choose to affirm in court, or would you instead simply do the Bible thing and get on with it?

Be honest now..........

(Edit: Apologies for my idiocy, but Mods, can you edit my poll to say Affirm or Swear on Bible?)

I have been in court twice in the last year, (on the side of the good guys!). Both times I took an affirmation. Like you Im not really bothered either way. But as I was taking my psycho neighbours to court who, as well as being like characters from 'Shameless' are also very very Catholic I thought it might wind the beggars up a bit as well!.

Truley

No

Don't know anything about affirmations, can you request it before hand or do you have to ask in court in front of everyone. If it was the latter I would probably have done the same as you. Mainly due to nerves and the fact that it makes no legal difference anyway.

rugbyman

I was in court this year, never thought about an afirmatio.the thought did cross my mind that sine the Bible has no relevance to me , that I could lie at will.

rugbyman

Galvasean

Im already in prison

I wouldn't swear on the Bible in court. It's disrespectful to the court, justice system, Christians and myself to do so.
Plus they'd just look up my posts on boards, see that I'm an atheist and then I'd be in trouble for lying in court!

antiskeptic

Im already in prison

drkpower wrote: »

And, I have to say, the experience was an eye-opener - while I would always have said I would probably affirm, given the choice, when presented with the Bible, on this occasion, while it crossed my mind, I wouldnt have dreamed of saying 'actually im an atheist, can I affirm please'; there was something so intimidating about being up there that any thoughts of 'rocking the boat' went out of my mind.

I know what you mean. I was a potential witness in a high court case and was facing into the issue of not swearing on the Bible (it's something the Bible instructs a believer not to do). So far so straightforward - except as the time approached the sense of intimidation had my heartbeat increase a notch or more. In the end, I wasn't called - so didn't have to face into my second dilemma, lying under oath


Or you could do what an unbelieving adult mate of mine did in a high profile constitutional case. He placed his hand on the Bible and swore the oath .. whilst crossing his fingers behind his back. I kid you not!

dvpower

Im already in prison

I was on a jury a couple of years ago. I wasn't quite sure at what point they could no longer challenge you, so I took the oath on the bible.

[It's a contradictory system; they ask you to find fact based on the evidence presented and then they get to reject you as a jury member based on any simple prejudice they may have. And then they get you to swear on a [I]bible [/I]that you'll base your findings on facts]



Edit: The poll makes no sense.

Osgoodisgood

I took a legal action this year and was the principle witness in the case. My solicitor, who is well aware of my lack of religion, advised me to go through the motions of swearing on the bible so as to not give the highly pious judge any reason to side with the evil doers. It was good advice which I was happy to take. I don't feel the least bit compromised as we won the case and for me the KJB is about as important and influential as the "Bumper Book of Noddy Stories".

robindch

No

I think I'd rather enjoy affirming

BTW, the Courts of Criminal Justice had an open day a couple of weeks back and in Court 18, on the third floor, the three holybooks (bible, koran and torah) were available on the witness stand for people to swear on or at, as required. Couldn't help but think that they could do a real service to the world by reacting like particles + anti-particles and just all disappear into the ether (though they'd have created one hell of a bang while doing so).

I mentioned to a religious friend of mine who was with me at the time that it must be quite intimidating to be an atheist in the box surrounded by such books and expected to swear on them, but good all the same that the courts would assume that an atheist's interest in his own honor was sufficient to compel him to tell the truth, while a religious believer had, in their own mind at least, to risk eternal damnation. Got some f-laden splutter in response

robindch

No

BTW, drkpower - as dvpower (are yiz related, by any chance?) has pointed out, the poll as posted makes no sense.

Yes = I'd affirm or,

Yes = I'd swear on the bible

?

strobe

No

I've already done it, twice.

Edit: Ehhh, refused to swear on the bible I mean. Poll is confusing.

A2LUE42

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

I took a legal action this year and was the principle witness in the case. My solicitor, who is well aware of my lack of religion, advised me to go through the motions of swearing on the bible so as to not give the highly pious judge any reason to side with the evil doers. It was good advice which I was happy to take. I don't feel the least bit compromised as we won the case and for me the KJB is about as important and influential as the "Bumper Book of Noddy Stories".

I was advised the same. Not giving the Judge a reason to dislike you seems to be the motivation.

rccaulfield

How can i answer yes or no to that question? Whats wrong with affirming anyway???

liamw

Im already in prison

rccaulfield wrote: »

How can i answer yes or no to that question? Whats wrong with affirming anyway???

The image you may portray to the jury may bias their decision against you?

drkpower

robindch wrote: »

BTW, drkpower - as dvpower (are yiz related, by any chance?) has pointed out, the poll as posted makes no sense.

Yes = I'd affirm or,

Yes = I'd swear on the bible

?

I know, I know, I know...... thats why I edited my post with the below. I cant seem to edit the poll myself. Can you do it, Robin?

robindch wrote: »

(Edit: Apologies for my idiocy, but Mods, can you edit my poll to say Affirm or Swear on Bible?)

Zillah

At risk of prison? This thread confuses the crap out of me.

Anyway, I get the general topic. It could be a trial about the assassination of the President and I would still ask for the secular affirmation. As for, er, going to prison over it...? No. I would "convert" to Islam to avoid punishment if necessary. It's hard to take a committment to a magical entity seriously when you have nothing but scorn for the very notion.

drkpower

Beruthiel wrote: »

I'd have no problem saying that.

Really? No problem at all? Even though your liberty is at stake and there's a fighting chance that a handful of jurors and the judge are probably believers, some more so than others, and may start to see you in a different (ie. worse) light if you dont swear on the Bible whereas if there are a few atheists on the jury, the likelihood is that they wouldnt care less if you 'did the usual thing' and swore on the Bible.

I admire the principled approach but is it really worth it?

drkpower

Zillah wrote: »

At risk of prison? .

ie. you are up on a criminal charge where, if convicted, you face prison.

This is what happens when you start a thread in a hurry:(. I'll get my coat.....

theg81der

No

I don`t understand the problem here. I am not an atheist but surely if I was its the equivilent of asking me to go up and swear on a book of nursery rhymnes. It reflects on you whether you use that to decide if I am telling the truth or a lie.

I do not feel that swearing on any book would convince anyone that you were being or not being honest. If it makes no difference to you and won`t affect whether your honest or not then its irrelevant.

Bottle_of_Smoke

If I was on trial I'd be wary the jury would be more likely to convict an atheist to be honest

Dades

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If I was on trial I'd be wary the jury would be more likely to convict an atheist to be honest

You don't have to use the dreaded "A-word. I'd be more inclined to say I was a Humanist or something that sounds fluffier and doesn't threaten the ignorant.

Though tbh, I'd just do what my lawyer tells me to do.

Gregor Samsa

Im already in prison

I honestly don't think any judge or jury would hold your right to affirm and not swear on the bible against you in a criminal case. You'd have watertight grounds for appeal if there was a whiff of it and you were convicted.

So if I was facing a criminal charge, I'd have no problem affirming and not swearing on the bible. It would be the least of my worries, and would probably make me feel better that I was standing up for myself (I'm assuming I'm innocent of the changes in this scenario!)

That said, I was chosen for jury duty years ago. I really wanted to do it (curiosity and a few days off work), but I had 11 years worth of dreadlocks at the time, and wasn't the most "presentable" individual for such a setting.

The way the selection process worked was that each prospective juror was called up to say the oath, and just before you said it, either the prosecution or the defense could object you you being on the jury (no reason needed to be given) and that was that, you went home.

As I really wanted to be on the jury, and already stood out like a sore thumb, I decided not to speak up, and just swore on the bible that was thrust in front of me. I got on the jury despite the dreadlocks. I might have still got on if I had said I wanted an alternative to swearing on the bible, but I didn't see the point in taking the chance. At no point did anyone explain that there was an alternative (although I was already aware that there was), so speaking up at that point would have brought too much attention to myself.

goose2005

Im already in prison

liamw wrote: »

The image you may portray to the jury may bias their decision against you?

Well **** them, then. Maybe gay people should hide their sexuality from the jury, and black people could put on gloves and wear a bag over their head.

Zillah

goose2005 wrote: »

Well **** them, then. Maybe gay people should hide their sexuality from the jury, and black people could put on gloves and wear a bag over their head.

This is not valid because it is not both popular and tolerated to attack gay people or black people any more. Its still open season on atheists, arrogant militants that they are!

Galvasean

Im already in prison

I'll swear on the Bible.
"F#ck you! Stupid book."

johnmcdnl

No

If I was on trial I'd swear on the bible for fear that the judge/jury would start getting bad impressions of me - I'd just be trying to keep a low profile and not be trying to stir ****e basically

If I was testifying I'd probably consider it but just to avoid being awkward in general I'd probably use the bible...

Until a load of other people start doing it regularly in court I doubt I'd be the one trying to make the stand especially if the little things could end me up in jail...

liamw

Im already in prison

goose2005 wrote: »

Well **** them, then. Maybe gay people should hide their sexuality from the jury, and black people could put on gloves and wear a bag over their head.

*** them all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a negative stigma attached to atheism in this country.

What is the wording for each, what is the question asked or the phrase you have to say?

Zillah

I voted already in prison because I am in a prison of paradoxical poll choices.

amacachi

I think I'd ask for a Torah. I was going to say I'd ask for a Qur'an but I fear that if I did that the irony may be lost on certain people. :pac:

WeeBushy

No

I was called up for jury duty 2 years ago, being a 20 year old it was a bit of a whirl wind when I was chosen and it didn't cross my mind when they asked to to swear on the bible. I was really annoyed almost straight after when I realised what I had done, as I have always thought I would have the presence of mind to say something. Maybe next time, now that I'm older and wiser

ColmDawson

I'd take my atheism to hell and back.

robindch

No

drkpower wrote: »

I cant seem to edit the poll myself. Can you do it, Robin?

Nope, once the poll's defined, it stays defined. Anything else would be suspicious

Probably the best is either to post a new thread or to say:

"Yes = affirm atheism" or,
"yes = swear on bible"

Daftendirekt

Im already in prison

I voted no, but I'm not sure what I voted no to :pac:.

I probably wouldn't swear on the Bible. Not in an "I want to be a martyr and make a stand" kind of way - it just shouldn't be a thing in this day and age.

If a Muslim or Hindu didn't want to swear on the Bible, nobody would bat an eyelid. So (foolishly, perhaps) I'd give the judge and jury the benefit of the doubt, and work under the assumption that they are somewhat reasonable people, and that their judgements are relatively unclouded by ignorance or bigotry.

drkpower

robindch wrote: »

Nope, once the poll's defined, it stays defined. Anything else would be suspicious

Probably the best is either to post a new thread or to say:

"Yes = affirm atheism" or,
"yes = swear on bible"

Agreed; although Im tempted to just delete the damn thing.....

So, how about this:
Q. If in court charged with a criminal offence with a potential prison sentence, would you:

A1. Affirm
A2. Swear on the Bible
A3. The poll is still confusing.....;)

dvpower

Im already in prison

drkpower wrote: »

Agreed; although Im tempted to just delete the damn thing.....

So, how about this:
Q. If in court charged with a criminal offence with a potential prison sentence, would you:

A1. Affirm
A2. Swear on the Bible
A3. The poll is still confusing.....;)

Can you edit the OP with this clarification?

Beruthiel

drkpower wrote: »

Really? No problem at all?

No problem at all.

The people who know me are well aware of the fact that I'm too honest for my own good and tend to tell it like it is. Not always to my own advantage as straight out honesty is not always appreciated.
Sometimes, I'm my own worst enemy. That doesn't bother me though as I've always thought, better out than in. I've more respect for myself that way.

Dades

dvpower wrote: »

Can you edit the OP with this clarification?

Done - though I think the poll is doomed.

No matter - everyone now at least knows what the question is.

Shenshen

No

I think for credibility's sake, I would ask to affirm...
If I don't believe in something I say in court, how can I expect anyone else to believe it?

Panrich

liamw wrote: »

The image you may portray to the jury may bias their decision against you?

How can 12 christians be a 'jury of our peers'.

seamus

I would affirm, purely because I've no issue with saying that I don't believe in the Bible and it's spinoffs.

Naturally if I was the defendent, facing jail, and my solicitor told me that refusing the bible will sway a jury against me, then I'll happily lie through my teeth to appease them.

dvpower

Im already in prison

The HAI have made a submission to government on this issue.

3.3 Courts Service - Oaths

Where a juror or witness is to be sworn-in, a Christian Bible is offered and essentially a person who does not wish to swear on such a book has to opt out by, for example, offering to make an affirmation instead. This is not a neutral approach to citizens . One should only be asked which of an all-inclusive list of options one wishes to avail of without any one approach being treated as the norm. Alternatively, a common neutral

formula should be adopted.

http://www.humanism.ie/website/docs/EqualityForNon-ReligiousPamphlet.pdf

eoin5

Whats wrong with swearing on the bible or indeed any other publication?

ShooterSF

I would explain as a pastafarian I require the gospel of the fsm to swear on.
Even when i'm in something serious I can't help but make fun of ideas I find silly. (Usually to my own detriment)

johnfás

rugbyman wrote: »

I was in court this year, never thought about an afirmatio.the thought did cross my mind that sine the Bible has no relevance to me , that I could lie at will.

rugbyman

Nope, that'd be called perjury.

Zillah

I am astounded by the number of people who voted on a poll that literally makes no sense whatsoever.

Some day I would like to run an experiment where we give people a questionnaire, and explain at the start that they can leave any questions they don't understand or are unsure of blank. The questions will be about 1/3 nonsensical. I bet the vast majority of people vote anyway.

strobe

No

Zillah wrote: »

I am astounded by the number of people who voted on a poll that literally makes no sense whatsoever.

Some day I would like to run an experiment where we give people a questionnaire, and explain at the start that they can leave any questions they don't understand or are unsure of blank. The questions will be about 1/3 nonsensical. I bet the vast majority of people vote anyway.

a,b,b,c,a,a,b

ColmDawson

Zillah wrote: »

I am astounded by the number of people who voted on a poll that literally makes no sense whatsoever.

I think people might be mistaking the poll question for "Would you affirm on (swear on) the Bible?", to which a yes or no answer makes sense. Still, they clearly haven't read/understood the OP.

rccaulfield

liamw wrote: »

The image you may portray to the jury may bias their decision against you?

I'll put it this way, say i do swear on the bible. The prosecutor if he's any good will know everything about me including my love of science and reason. He will ask me why did i swear on the bible when i clearly don't believe in it? You sir are a liar he would say! You are lying about everything aren't you!