Have we given up?

Lenny Lovett

Major protest marches took place in most European Capitals this weekend. Generally they are protesting at cuts resulting in far less hardship than we have coming to us yet we're not bothering to protest, it seems.

Brussels, Paris, Berlin, Rome, Madrid, Lisbon, Athens and Copenhagen all had marches with crowds in excess of fifty thousand and most other provincial cities had protests too. Even London had protests but on a smaller scale. Noticably very little mention was made of these protests on RTE or TV3 News. Does this tell us something else?

So I'm asking: Are we beaten now? Have we given up the will to unseat the Government and reclaim our country? Do we no longer care?

Permabear

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Denerick

I don't like protesting against reality. If there was another game in town I'd be playing it, but I'm far from convinced there is.

Fo Real

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Major protest marches took place in most European Capitals this weekend..... Noticably very little mention was made of these protests on RTE or TV3 News.

I saw reports of the protests on both station's news programmes. Take off the tin-foil hat.

Also we don't know what cuts our government is going to make in the Budget yet, so we have nothing to protest against. I hope they slash public sector wages, of course. And force some accountability for the ludicrous expenses claimed by out TDs.

Lenny Lovett

donegalfella wrote: »

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Well, to be fair, no other organisation was able to organise a protest march. The Unions were found out with their bank accounts bulging with our tax money and being used for jaunts around the world. They are equally in the trough along with the Politicians hence their impotence when it came to the Public Services Industrial Action. George Orwell's Animal Farm was such a prophetic work.

djpbarry

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

So I'm asking: Are we beaten now? Have we given up the will to unseat the Government and reclaim our country? Do we no longer care?

Do we finally accept that a tough budget is a necessity and, regardless what becomes of “The Golden Circle” et al., there is no getting away from the grim reality that is the massive current deficit in the public finances?

Lenny Lovett

Fo Real wrote: »

I saw reports of the protests on both station's news programmes. Take off the tin-foil hat.

You saw only 45seconds of footage from the Paris protests. None from the other dozen or so.

Fo Real wrote: »

Also we don't know what cuts our government is going to make in the Budget yet, so we have nothing to protest against. I hope they slash public sector wages, of course. And force some accountability for the ludicrous expenses claimed by out TDs.

I think the level of cuts is immaterial really. The damage is done and the only way forward is to offload our current Government.

djpbarry

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

I think the level of cuts is immaterial really. The damage is done and the only way forward is to offload our current Government.

I think the current government is immaterial really. Further damage could well be done and the only way forward is to drastically reduce our level of public current expenditure.

catbear

You have to be careful too of what the media reports. I was in Madrid on the day of their big strike last month, when I got home the Irish media reports stated that 10 million people came out. One out of every four Madrid residents were not on the streets that day. Maybe 1 in 20.

I was on a anti NAMA march over a year ago and yes it got infiltrated with the usual suspects.

Lenny Lovett

djpbarry wrote: »

..... the only way forward is to drastically reduce our level of public current expenditure.

Which is going to be nigh on impossible because of the contracted terms and conditions of the employees. If they are to be offered early retirement it will cost us as much in severance and pensions/welfare as to retain them as employees. They can't be made redundant. So what do you propose?

PeterIanStaker

Fo Real wrote: »

And force some accountability for the ludicrous expenses claimed by out TDs.

Well, there not going to do that. They'll ride you and me though, thats for certain.

Permabear

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Permabear

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donegalfella

donegalfella wrote: »

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I don't think that's really fair. If the cuts started at the top and then worked their way down, people would be happier to accept them. But when politicians (with no portfolio) are earning 101,000 BEFORE expenses and the leader of a country of 4.5 million is earning 300,000+ and asking people to tighten their belts, well, something's quite not right there.

It has to start at the top and show real leadership

Bottle_of_Smoke

I think we realise here that cuts need to be made. And the unemployed are being paid 200euro a week not to protest.

When that changes there'll be more appetite for protest

southsiderosie

catbear wrote: »

You have to be careful too of what the media reports. I was in Madrid on the day of their big strike last month, when I got home the Irish media reports stated that 10 million people came out. One out of every four Madrid residents were not on the streets that day. Maybe 1 in 20.

I was on a anti NAMA march over a year ago and yes it got infiltrated with the usual suspects.

I've been very surprised by the lack of protests in Ireland over both the budget and the general mismanagement of the economy, but I think that the protests in other countries need to be put in perspective. I was also in Spain for the general strike, and I've been to several mass protests against the government led by the unions over the last few months. The vast majority of protesters are members of the two largest union confederations and are the most highly protected workers in the country. They also are disproportionately male, Spanish, and over 45, which in no way reflects the demographic realities of Spain's workforce today. If young people are out protesting, it is generally under the banner of an anarchist union, or some other anti-establishment organization, and they rarely get more than 60-100 people out into the streets (although they have a much higher capacity to cause chaos). I would guess that many of the other large protests across Europe were similar.

To put is differently, in Spain and France, the large union federations are the "usual suspects", they just have a lot more support than the SWP or eirigi in Ireland...and even still, trade union membership in Ireland is significantly higher than in Spain or France.

AlekSmart

And the unemployed are being paid 200euro a week not to protest.

When that changes there'll be more appetite for protest

Oh dear,Bottle_of_Smoke,you`ll draw fire on this one,however you`re pretty much correct.

We have as yet had no real attempt to curb the scale of our colossal Social Welfare net.

Its not about the unemployed either but more about the many thousands of claimants who have never paid a contribution in their lives.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68380286

The tale of Mr Ward from Sligo and his 20 children,all of whom are on Unemployment Assistance,is far more representative of our Social Welfare system than many wish to admit.

Until this,or any, Government takes action to end this type of codology then the contributing class will continue to be flayed for every cent they have.

Boskowski

donegalfella wrote: »

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While that is true the ludicrous wages in the upper echelons of the Dail and Government and Civil Service embody a certain culture that we will have to do away with. Because it sets the tone of entitlement and megalomania that is evident in those circles.

I mean every Tom, Dick & Harry director of every state or semi-state body earns multiples of what the American President earns, ffs. And I'm sure there are a few hierarchies underneath that top level whose wages are not far from that.

Irish politicians are very quick to point out how they're representing 'only small country'. Well they're not pointing that fact out when it comes to justifying their wages. You'd think every single one of them is running British Petroleum or Sony or something.

It may be drops in the ocean in the grander scheme of things, but every MD of every SME out there will tell you that's not how it works. There is anwful lot of money to be wasted when you don't keep an eye on the seemingly small sums. Plus the culture of elitism and megalomania and entitlement is poison for this country, so there is two very good reasons to do away with it for you.

Lenny Lovett

AlekSmart wrote: »

The tale of Mr Ward from Sligo and his 20 children,all of whom are on Unemployment Assistance,is far more representative of our Social Welfare system than many wish to admit.

Until this,or any, Government takes action to end this type of codology then the contributing class will continue to be flayed for every cent they have.

And again we have the situation whereby the people who had no hand, act or part in our downfall ar the ones that everyone wants to penalise first. The poor. I would have no problem with the Welfare system being cut back as long as everyone else dipping into the public purse took an proportional whack too. The problem is that in the last budget these were the people who bore the brunt of the cuts and it looks like they're the target again. Why? Because they are an easy target. They have little or no representation. They cannot afford buses and trains to Dublin to protest. Many are poorly educated and so are unable to stand up for themselves unlike the Civil Service and other Unionised bodies.

LostinKildare

donegalfella wrote: »

Not coincidentally, every protest over the past two years has been organized and dominated by the SWP and éirígí, with hardly any involvement from anyone else.

I assume that when you say protest you mean protest march, because certainly there have been other types of protests that have not had any association with SWP and éirígí. The charge that all protests are planned or hijacked by them is designed to discourage participation --- most people don't want to be thought of as extremists.

But I draw your attention to the very successful medical card protest march, just less than two years ago. Organised by the Irish Senior Citizens' Parliament, 15,000 mostly elderly people on the streets, and the govt folded like a cheap suit. The Taoiseach came out and apologised for worrying them.

The elderly are the only ones with cojones for a fight. I doubt they'll be hit in the budget.

The unemployed will be hit, and they will not take to the streets en masse to fight it because so many, especially many of the newly unemployed, are ashamed of their situation. They don't want to be associated with a group they themselves have long looked down on, and they don't want to be shamed by onlookers. Because they know a lot of people see them this way:

AlekSmart wrote: »

Its not about the unemployed either but more about the many thousands of claimants who have never paid a contribution in their lives. The tale of Mr Ward from Sligo and his 20 children,all of whom are on Unemployment Assistance,is far more representative of our Social Welfare system than many wish to admit.

Fo Real

I must say, I'm a little surprised at the blasé attitude of some posters towards our TDs' expenses claims. It's easy to shrug your shoulders and accept "that's the way it is", but don't become indifferent to their blatant flaunt of abuse of power.

As Papa Smut already said, the cut backs must start at the top. It's hard to stomach being told to tighten our belts by our politicians when they are staying in 5 star hotels and being driven around in Mercs, courtesy of the taxpayer.

Every dole fraud kicked off social welfare is more money into the state coffers. Every TD that travels economy class rather than first class is more money into the state coffers. Watch the pennies and the pounds watch themselves.

djpbarry

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

And again we have the situation whereby the people who had no hand, act or part in our downfall ar the ones that everyone wants to penalise first. The poor.

That particular violinist is being thoroughly over-employed at the moment.

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

I would have no problem with the Welfare system being cut back as long as everyone else dipping into the public purse took an proportional whack too.

Why? There are plenty of people on the public wage bill who are doing a fine job, but you think they should take another pay cut (and be further disenfranchised) before the social welfare bill should be reduced? You don’t think a more targeted approach is the way to go, to clear out the dead wood?

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

The problem is that in the last budget these were the people who bore the brunt of the cuts...

Really? Care to put some figures on that?

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

They have little or no representation. They cannot afford buses and trains to Dublin to protest. Many are poorly educated and so are unable to stand up for themselves unlike the Civil Service and other Unionised bodies.

And of course they don’t have internet access, so every Tom, Dick and Harry is attempting to tug at the heart-strings by speaking on their behalf.

Denerick

I'd love it if TDs and Ministers were paid minimum wage and got no expenses. But lets be honest with ourselves, the impact on the deficit wouldn't be noticable. Please see the bigger picture.

djpbarry

LostinKildare wrote: »

But I draw your attention to the very successful medical card protest march, just less than two years ago. Organised by the Irish Senior Citizens' Parliament, 15,000 mostly elderly people on the streets, and the govt folded like a cheap suit.

Of those 15,000 elderly people, how many need a medical card?

LostinKildare wrote: »

The unemployed will be hit, and they will not take to the streets en masse to fight it because so many, especially many of the newly unemployed, are ashamed of their situation. They don't want to be associated with a group they themselves have long looked down on, and they don't want to be shamed by onlookers. Because they know a lot of people see them this way

Please. If jobseekers benefit is reduced in the next budget, many (most?) unemployed people will accept it because the rate of jobseekers benefit is presently far too high. And I say that as someone who was recently unemployed.

Permabear

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LostinKildare

djpbarry wrote: »

Of those 15,000 elderly people, how many need a medical card?

Completely beside the point. DF said all protest marches have been associated with SWP and eirigi. They have not. Some insinuate that only extremists -- never reputable people! -- engage in such protests. Well, criticise the grannies and granddads of Ireland at your peril --- even the rich ones who surely can pay for their own medical care. Many people say that protest marches are a waste of time. For select groups -- those that have the sympathy of the public --- they are quite successful.

djpbarry wrote: »

Please. If jobseekers benefit is reduced in the next budget, many (most?) unemployed people will accept it because the rate of jobseekers benefit is presently far too high. And I say that as someone who was recently unemployed.

It is too high for some people, in some circumstances. Sounds like you belong in that group. It is too little for other people in other circumstances.

Permabear

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Denerick

I recently started working a 40 hour week job in a supermarket at slightly above minimum wage (Beggars can't be choosers) Sometimes I wonder if I would have been better off on the dole, once you take out discretionary costs involved in travel...

LostinKildare

donegalfella wrote: »

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I see problems everywhere.

But it's not that cut-and-dried, DF. Unemployed people in this recession have vastly different circumstances. Some people are wealthy and they don't need JB at all. Some people are not wealthy but they live with their parents, have no expenses but their own entertainment, and don't need 196 euros a week. Some people were solidly middle-class with modest consumer debt, they have a couple of children, and they are living hand to mouth in trying to meet their obligations. In many cases they don't qualify for rent supplement or other supplementary benefits for any number of reasons. They are in danger of losing their homes, and then the burden will be far greater on the state to house them.

Then there are unemployed people who are working in various employment schemes without pay because they want to retrain, or just to keep busy or maintain their pride. Some of them are contributing highly skilled work free of charge to the employers, and they have the transport, clothing, and childcare costs of a "working person." By your calculations, they get €105 less than a minimum-wage low-skilled worker does. They are not better off.


Anyway, we've got enough attack/defend the unemployed threads. This thread is about whether/why the Irish don't come out in protest. Let's not derail it

_Kaiser_

The problem I think people have with going after those on Welfare - and rightly so in my opinion - is the fact that rather than targeting the "wasters" who have made a career out of claiming benefits, the government will instead impose a "one size for all" approach that will impact the recently unemployed (like myself) who IS genuinely trying to find work AND meet existing commitments (loans, bills, mortgage/rent payments etc), not waiting for "debt forgiveness" or NAMA 2 etc

It's THESE people who will suffer most by this, NOT the ones getting hundreds per week and who know every angle to get more!

Oh and as far as the infamous Medical Card goes.. I got one when I was made redundant last year and signed on and guess how many times I've used it - zero!
It's therefore not really any "benefit" to me at all is it? If I was still working, I'd probably have to go public anyway as private healthcare is something I've only once had (as part of a job with one of the multinationals) - and I never used it then either!

But as I've said before, the government has shown time and again that it has the misdirection skills of a Batman villain! While we all finger-point and pass the buck, they (and their supporters in the banking and construction sectors) will continue to quietly recoup their losses at our expense, then jump ship and let the rest of us sink.

BUT ANYWAY...

The reason we won't come out protesting is because we Irish as a people are (in general) too busy trying to get one over on each other, grab as much as we can for ourselves, and can't see past our own driveways that the "bigger picture" or "national good" never comes into it. The "I'm alright Jack" philosophy at its "finest"

Until we GROW UP as a nation, things will never really change!

djpbarry

LostinKildare wrote: »

Completely beside the point. DF said all protest marches have been associated with SWP and eirigi.

I’m not disputing the point you were making, but I still think my question is relevant to the discussion. People protest for the sake of protesting. It was proposed that pensioners should not be guaranteed medical cards but should instead be means tested. That seems like a perfectly reasonable approach to me – to suggest that every pensioner needs a medical card seems rather ageist to me (I’m not implying you were suggesting such a thing).

LostinKildare wrote: »

It is too high for some people, in some circumstances. Sounds like you belong in that group. It is too little for other people in other circumstances.

As donegalfella pointed out above, jobseekers benefit is the bare minimum that an unemployed person is entitled to (assuming they have made a sufficient number of social insurance contributions). That bare minimum is far too high.

LostinKildare wrote: »

Some people were solidly middle-class with modest consumer debt, they have a couple of children, and they are living hand to mouth in trying to meet their obligations. In many cases they don't qualify for rent supplement or other supplementary benefits for any number of reasons. They are in danger of losing their homes, and then the burden will be far greater on the state to house them.

Can we put some figures on this – how many people fall into the above category? Because this just sounds like more of the same: “There’re probably lots of people out there who will suffer if we cut welfare, so we shouldn’t cut welfare”.

LostinKildare wrote: »

Then there are unemployed people who are working in various employment schemes without pay because they want to retrain, or just to keep busy or maintain their pride. Some of them are contributing highly skilled work free of charge to the employers, and they have the transport, clothing, and childcare costs of a "working person." By your calculations, they get €105 less than a minimum-wage low-skilled worker does.

What employment schemes are you referring to? Under the FÁS Community Employment scheme, for example, workers are paid €216 for a 19.5 hour week, plus add-ons for dependents. That is significantly above the minimum wage.