best AI sire for heifers

bobby9

howdy lads,
Ive been a regular visitor to the forum for ages and have finally decided to join up. I think its a great source for advice and opinions. Anyway lads iam a and aspiring young part time farmer. Ive kept drystock for the previous 3-4 years but have decided to try my hand at suckling. I am in the market for 10 charlaois X weanling heifers and to date I have purchased 5 so nearly there. My plan is to inseminate them in april and have them calving next december at 22 months.What are yere views on this?Also what would ye recomend inseminating them to. At the moment I am swaying towards a easy calving docile lim bull.I feel there would be planty of hybrid vigour this way.what do you guys reckon and wat would ye recomend as an AI sire for heifers. I look forward to hearing yere views lads

bogman_bass

FL22 or REQ (if you can get him) are two nice easy calving limos from NCBC

bobby9

thanks bogman,how do there calves turn out do you know.have u used thease bulls yourself

bogman_bass

REQ's just pop out and had nice calves from him out of BBxFR cows.

Have cows in calf to FL22 but none on the ground. The reports I've heard are that he's just as easy calved but slightly classier

hoodrats

bogman_bass wrote: »

REQ's just pop out and had nice calves from him out of BBxFR cows.

Have cows in calf to FL22 but none on the ground. The reports I've heard are that he's just as easy calved but slightly classier

my neighbour has a few lim x heifers that have calved to fl22 in the past few weeks. a few of the heifers were a bit fleshy and they had no problem calving . the calves are very growthy and have excellent shape . id say he is the ideal all round bull for heifers.

Muckit

bobby9 wrote: »

howdy lads,
Ive been a regular visitor to the forum for ages and have finally decided to join up. I think its a great source for advice and opinions. Anyway lads iam a and aspiring young part time farmer. Ive kept drystock for the previous 3-4 years but have decided to try my hand at suckling. I am in the market for 10 charlaois X weanling heifers and to date I have purchased 5 so nearly there. My plan is to inseminate them in april and have them calving next december at 22 months.What are yere views on this?Also what would ye recomend inseminating them to. At the moment I am swaying towards a easy calving docile lim bull.I feel there would be planty of hybrid vigour this way.what do you guys reckon and wat would ye recomend as an AI sire for heifers. I look forward to hearing yere views lads

Hi bobby

I know your anxiuos for answers, but my first question to you is, why the rush? You say your changing over to suckling, would 5 not be enough to worry about until you get started?? You may find you don't even like it or that it doesn't suit you time wise ie. Will you be able to spot heats and get them in calf ok? Then at the other end will you be able to calf them ok? I'm not doubting your competence, this is just the reality of what lies ahead. It's not the same as drystock, you've ALOT more work ahead once they're bought. Also difficult calvings=sections=€€€€, ensure you go with a high reliability easy calving sire as you have planned, your local AI can recommend. With suckling, no live calf on the ground = no profit for a year. I'm sure you've considered all this, just a gentle reminder. Also cows will eat alot more than drystock, but won't leave as much money in your pocket if things don't work out and you send them to the factory!:rolleyes:

My advice is not to put all your eggs in the one basket. Stick to what you've commited to now (ie just stick to the 5), get them in calf to an easy calving LIM like what you've in your head (your dead right, the limXChar is a good cross) See how you get on next winter and then make your decisions from there, ones which best suit YOU and YOUR system. You might find you love it and it's the way to go, and I hope you do.

I wish you all the best with your venture;)

pakalasa

I would have to agree with Muckit. Suckling is completely different from drystock. I started suckling about 5 years ago. To be honest, would do things slightly different if the chance again. So you are better to start with a few and learn your lessons on them.

For example to avoid calving problems, you need to slim down heifers from about 6 weeks before calving. However if you over do it, you will find it harded to get them back in calf. It's a fine balance which comes with experience.

Do go with easy calving Lim bulls like FL22 and REQ as mentioned. I calved 15 in the first year to Malibu (MBU). Hes not available anymore but I had to only pull 2 of these.

Spotting heats is like detective work too, has to be done 3 times a day.

Sorry, dont want to discourage you or anything, and best of luck.

bobby9

thanks for all the replies lads,
sounds like FL22 is to one to beat going by what has been said

Hoodrats those heifers that calved down to FL22 do you know what age they were by any chance

Muckit thanks for pointing out the reality but ive gone over that time and time again with myself and i wouldnt be a complete novice when it comes to calving as i have helped out the grandfather the last coupkle of winters as he is pushin on.Id be nearly 99.9% sure that suckling is for me as its always been the type of farming i have wanted to get into and there nothing better than watching a group of cows and their calves in a field. Great meditation me thinks.And my plan with getting them in calf is to give them all an injection to bring them around on the 1 day along with slapping on the tail paint and keeping a good eye on them and getting the AI man to come and go from there.

Pakalasa what breed are you suckling with and how do you find them.you say you would do things differently what would these be.Are you calving autumn or spring and do you find your turning a good profit from this method.Ya iam aware of slimming them down before calving and i plan to restrict them to hay andn soya nuts as i hear there great for them maintaining a good milk supply

thanks again lads and i look forward as usual to yere answers

adne

bobby9 wrote: »

my plan with getting them in calf is to give them all an injection to bring them around on the 1 day along with slapping on the tail paint and keeping a good eye on them and getting the AI man to come and go from there.

have 5 heifers that i plan to inseminate at start of December. thinking of doing the same and try and get them all calving down close together. How many days after the injection will they call... is the conception rate low or high after giving the injection?

Pat the lad

Bobby9 - I'd recommend Fl22. Good for milk & Beef. Have a few calves on the ground after him - good growthy calves. I'll be keeping the best of the heifers calve as replacements

bobby9

well adne to the best of my knowledge they come callin within 72hours of getting the injection and my grandfather said that he always inseminated the morning after they were calling and he never had 1 repeat.ive no doubt people will beg to differ doh.

pat the lad what was FL22 like for calving difficulty so.Does he live up to all the hype.what breed were your heifers/cows.You say there good growthy calves, thats music to my ears.what age/weight would you put on them?Also how much is a straw from Fl22

Pat the lad

Bobby9 - Calves after FL 22 are about 10 months - Bulls 380-400kgs, Heifiers are 350-380 region. Getting a pick of meal i.e. about 1Kg/Hd a day for the last 3 1/2 weeks. Cows are a mixture of 3/4 Limo's, SimXLim, a few BlondeX Limo & BBXLimo. Also have a few pure breed Lim's. I general use the 1st calvers (and a few 2nd time calvers) to breed the replacements i.e. cross them to FL 22, LINO etc and put the remaining cows in calf to BB
anyway looking into the Parthenaise breed (Heifiers/Cows)at the moment - fancy something abit different/better????????.

bobby9

pat the lad there good weights for 10months old imo especially for heifers.bulls should make the 7 to 800 mark shouldnt they.do you plan to hold them or sell them.how did your bb turn out.must have had a few tough calvings there

pakalasa

bobby9 wrote: »

....
Pakalasa what breed are you suckling with and how do you find them.you say you would do things differently what would these be.Are you calving autumn or spring and do you find your turning a good profit from this method.Ya iam aware of slimming them down before calving and i plan to restrict them to hay andn soya nuts as i hear there great for them maintaining a good milk supply

thanks again lads and i look forward as usual to yere answers

I have mainly Limousines, mostly red with a few blacks. Lims are great, if you can get them quiet. They dont seem to lack milk in the way that some Charolais can. Having said that my best cow is a Char cross. Nearly culled her after the first year as she had very litle milk. Her calf started drinking other cows. In her second year, milk came on that bit more so kept her. I've taken 2 Simm heifers from her, one by HKG and one by IS4. They should have enough milk.

What would I have done different.....

• Should have calved them earlier the first year. Heifers, especially if bought in take a time to adjust to new farm. Their colostrum wont be as good as mature cows on the farm either, calves tend to get sick more often. They slip back about 6 wks on average, so worth keeping in mind. Worth giving them a bit of meal too after calving as this will help to get them bulling.
• Didnt have a teaser bull or strong weanling the first year so harder to spot heats.
• Paid big money for fancy weanling heifers which didnt have great calves. Often the plainer cows can have the best calves.

On health - dose for worms (Ivermectin - type) 3 full weeks before weaning. It clears out the lungs in time for weaning. Did mine about 2 weeks ago. None coughing at the time. One week later, some coughing so much I taught they had pneumonia. Had only dosed them once before that. Mistake - should have done them twice.

Also - I calve them outdoors, if weather isnt bad. Even if it means carrying in calf to suck cow in the middle of the night. Get full belly of milk into calf in the first hour - better than any antibiotics you will ever buy.

On cows bulling - check calf for scour if unsure if cow is bulling. Change in hormones in the cow causes this. Tip from my AI man. Handy to know.

Bit of a rant but hope it helps.

bobby9

pakalasa you calve them outdoors.what time of year would this be.what age were yours when you first calved them.would you see any major difficultys in calving heifers at 22 months.yes i would agree that calves need at least 2 worm doses the main 1 being before weaning but also just before the big surge in grass growth along with 2 blackleg shots.that should be more than enough for them at that me thinks

kboc

good thread, nice ideas and discussion to pick through!

Tora Bora

I used limousin UBN on 5 charolais heifers last year.4 calved unassiste. One was handy pull. Had 4 heifer calves. Absolutely powerful heifers at weaning. Big frame. Kept all 4 for replacements. UBN, is high on maternal traits. Reading this thread, I will probably use FL22 on these heifers.

jmurf100

Pakalasa, you were saying that you should have dosed the weanlings twice before the final dose three weeks before weaning, when (at what ages) would you recommend doing this dosing?

Muckit

bobby9 wrote: »

well adne to the best of my knowledge they come callin within 72hours of getting the injection and my grandfather said that he always inseminated the morning after they were calling and he never had 1 repeat.ive no doubt people will beg to differ doh.

Yes good success rate with heifers, but then again heifers are easier get in calf. I wouldn't be banking on the same strategy next year:rolleyes: Your grandfather was right though to leave time between first noticing heat and insemination, always seem to hold better.

gerico

Hi Bobby9.
if you have some spare time suckling can be great but it does eat up time. i outwinter and subsequently calve outdoors late feb - march. I use sim x cows to an easy calving limo. The last calf I lost was 3 years ago mainly through my errors, condition at calving is key. The calves will be very hardy and fairly bullet proof despite the weather

if you monitor condition and have a plan for winter feeding, condition at calving , getting in calf again etc it will save a lot of trouble.

bobby9

kboc nice to see iam not the only 1 enjoying this thread.feel free to add give your opinions

tora bora i would take that any day of the week 4 out 5 unassisted is pretty good.had you any special feeding regimen also what age were your heifers when they calved?

Pakalasa yes the following year i might be looking into a bullock with a chin marker etc.good to hear you agree with my grandfather hed rarely pass on info that wasnt certain

Gerico if you dont mind me asking what type of feeding plan would you have over winter.would calving outdoors not be a big shock to the calf.would you keep it outdoors after calving also.how would thease calves turn out as weanlings id imagine they would be fairly heavy with the sim bloodlines and demand a good price

gerico

Gerico if you dont mind me asking what type of feeding plan would you have over winter.would calving outdoors not be a big shock to the calf.would you keep it outdoors after calving also.how would thease calves turn out as weanlings id imagine they would be fairly heavy with the sim bloodlines and demand a good price[/QUOTE]

I feed the cows baled silage only. I split them into groups of 5-7 matching condition and due date if possible and keep them in smaller fenced off paddocks. all paddocks have access to a crush in case of emergencies. As I out winter i put the bales out by the ditch protected by a line of lecky wire. I move the wire as I move the round feeder. my nuts were broken from dragging out bales on the tractor and butchering the fields. I force them to walk over the butt of the bale that's left (if any) this helps cut out weed growth afterwards.

The calves have being hitting the ground over the past few years and I have to admit I'm very impressed by how hardy they are plus their quality. They have being born in dreadful weather but once they drink they'll be fine. I never bring them indoors plus the cows go a bit nuts as they're not used to confinement. I sell them out of the yard if possible and so far no bother finding buyers. I give the mineral licks and give them a dose & blackleg shot thats about it. I weighed them today at 240 days average weight about 350kgs (bulls) / 300kg (heifers)with no feeding bar grass so I'm fairly happy with them

Pat the lad

Bobby9 - yeah hopefully the 800 mark at least - the bulls are nice red shapey animals. will be keeping the best of the heifiers as replacements. The BB's are good, hopefully the magic € 1000 mark - well the best of them will. They quality is getting better every year - thanks to better cows!!!!
As for calving - no real problems. I mostly use cheap BB straws from AI - BBQ, CGF,CVY,SFL,EZL - to name a few- any easy calving BB bull. Haven't had one out the side in 3-4 years - touch wood- most calve unassissted and any I do pull is a one man job. Using better cows now- wider pins/frame etc. also using better diet - barley straw & silage at mix 50:50 mix, maybe even 60:40 to straw until calved and a sprinkle of oats to the cows for the last 8 weeks before calving date - makes calves hardy!!!! also usual minerials & licks!!
Before my cows were Fresian X, Hereford X etc - abit narrow, and seemed to put all their reserve's into the calf - making it big and also the were fed too well!!!!!
Would like to use EZN BB , but not brave enough yet and abit dear for commerical sucklers, although nearly every stock bull for sale seems to be after him!!!!! has anyone used him commerical cows - would be interesting to hear reports?????

pakalasa

jmurf100 wrote: »

Pakalasa, you were saying that you should have dosed the weanlings twice before the final dose three weeks before weaning, when (at what ages) would you recommend doing this dosing?

Just my own opinion, but you'd want to be doing them at least 3 times including 3 wks before weaning. I did them 3 times last year. This year I did them in mid July and then about 2 week ago.
I thought with the dry year they would have been fine.
I should have done them in early July and then again in late August.

Did them with Noromectin Pour-on, cost €1.06, to be exact, for every 250 Kg calf. When you see the cost - it definitely makes sense.

Bizzum

Hi Lads,
This is my experience. Two things jump out at me here.
Firstly, calving down at 22 mths, for me is a bit young. Why not buy a stronger heifer to begin with?
If cost is the issue, I'd sooner have 8 or 9 stronger ones than 10 younger heifers, many of which are too heavy for their age anyway from creep feeding!
Secondly, Bulling a heifer in april is a good time to have an early calf, but you wont have any until well into Jan, even if you AI in early April.
These Limousine bulls and Charolais heifers tend to carry 290 days and I'v seen them go to 300! (Twice on BAX cows)

Interesting discussion here.

bobby9

Gerico I cant get over the calves adjusting to living outside so young but i suppose its they have less chance of picking up pneumonia and the like outside than inside.also, there good weights your making from nothing but grass at 8 months.id be well happy with that

pakalasa when you break it down like that its defo worth giving them the extra dose and thell thrive that bit better too.would you find the pour-on handier than oral injection

Bizzum, I dont tink heifers have any bother calving down at 22 months and there is a big discussion on this on the brittishfarming forum and they all agree. And for a stronger charlaois heifer youd be talking a yearling and the 800 mark and since iam only 19 I dont have that kinda money and id get 2 weanlings for that pricw anyway.my granfather calved whithead heifers as 2 year olds to a polly no bother and they easily went back into to a charlaois. The weanlings I have purchased all have good length and width and are not overly fat so with the right management before calving i cant see them having any major trouble.You could be right about them over carrying that bit but if that does happen they still have 3 months to get back in calf

Bizzum

Massive difference between calving down a Whitehead heifer to an Angus bull and calving a Charolais heifer (presumably from a suckler dam) carrying a Limousine.
I'v seen it both ways!
and got plenty of experience using a calving jack on the head of it.
Im telling ya my experience of calving, particularly shapey contintental heifers.
It's not always easy.

pakalasa

bobby9 wrote: »

...pakalasa you calve them outdoors.what time of year would this be.what age were yours when you first calved them....

I calve them in late Feb / March. My fields are North facing so sheltered from the strong west/south winds. I only have them out if the weather is any way fair.
You say you are in the market for Char heifers. Only concern here might be milk. It's the one downside of the Char cow. Some wouldnt have enough for a cuppa tae. Mighnt be a bad idea to buy them privately. That way you could have a look at the cows and see what way they are like for milk.

Other tips -

• Feed pre-calver minerals from 6 wks before calving. Less retained after-births, hardier calves. I just use those small plastic mineral bottles to spread the dust over the silage once a day. They need about 100g per cow per day.
• Get heifers which are big and square at the hips, the bigger the better. The tail head should be set down aswell and not standing proud, if you know what I mean.
• Stay away from tight gutted heifers, better to have a more deeper body. She'll have to live of grass after all.
• Most advise against too much muscle in the cow, but I dont think it's a problem provided the bone at the hips is wide enough. Take for example the bull, NINO (nin), gone now I think, but he had a high Muscle Index yet his Maternal Calving Diff % was one of the lowest.
  

bobby9

Pakalasa out of the 5 i have so far 3 of them were private.they were from whitehead cows x freisian and they are bursting with milk, during the summer the calves couldnt drink them empty so should have no bother with milk. then the other 2 were from the mart and 1 of them actually turned out being from a local fella and his cows has planty of milk 2. so far that should be 4 out of 5 with bags of milk Thats interesting about the pre calver i thought they would have been a bad idea but ill use 1 now.would a mineral block do the job. Ya i get what your saying about the tail head, ive seen enough freisians in my time:D:D:D

gerico

bobby9 wrote: »

Gerico I cant get over the calves adjusting to living outside so young but i suppose its they have less chance of picking up pneumonia and the like outside than inside.also, there good weights your making from nothing but grass at 8 months.id be well happy with that

yeah no trouble at all. obviously you'd prefer decent weather but they do fine even in the worst of it. The cows are simx and I have good grass so theres plenty of milk for them on top of the grass.
I find feeding them up is a waste of money, have a decent frame on them will sell them just as good.

gerico

bobby9 are you planning on outwintering,

bobby9

Gerico no i wouldnt be able to outwinter down here.land wouldnt be suitable gets very wet and heavy over the winter. Id be interested in how farmers gets on with kale and silage bales scattered in the field.if the cows and calves were left into a field of kale when calves are a week old the winter would be fine and short

Bodacious

bogman_bass wrote: »

REQ's just pop out and had nice calves from him out of BBxFR cows.

Have cows in calf to FL22 but none on the ground. The reports I've heard are that he's just as easy calved but slightly classier

Had first heifer calve today from FL22 and she ch X lm herself and calved herself no bother but good heifer calf and extremely lively, i expected an awful rat as so easy calved but pleasantly surprised! Start them small and grow them big i suppose!!!:D

tismesoitis

Bodacious wrote: »

Had first heifer calve today from FL22 and she ch X lm herself and calved herself no bother but good heifer calf and extremely lively, i expected an awful rat as so easy calved but pleasantly surprised! Start them small and grow them big i suppose!!!:D

We had our first fl22(a heifer too:D) on tuesday took a small pull though deffinatly would'nt have calved her self.Dam is a 1st calver tko(lim) out of a HKG(sim) like u delighted with the quality of the calf have another 4 or 5 due in the next month or so lookin forward to them!!:D

bogman_bass

had our first one on a musley blue cow. second calver
not a huge bull calf but the cow was a bit fat. hardish pull.
super calf though

Bodacious

tismesoitis wrote: »

We had our first fl22(a heifer too:D) on tuesday took a small pull though deffinatly would'nt have calved her self.Dam is a 1st calver tko(lim) out of a HKG(sim) like u delighted with the quality of the calf have another 4 or 5 due in the next month or so lookin forward to them!!:D

All happy all round with FL22 so. 4 more heifers to go from him too but others have a bit size and more muscle but this lady did well first time out, she a twin and not a big heifer and threw a fine calf and was hopping down the road ahead of me, you cant beat a good eager lively calf:)

Bodacious

bogman_bass wrote: »

had our first one on a musley blue cow. second calver
not a huge bull calf but the cow was a bit fat. hardish pull.
super calf though

Good stuff - he seems like a good option for the muscley ones/first time heifers, he good maternally too- all rounder- I hope he didn't get the bullet (IBR outbreak):mad:

pakalasa

Bodacious wrote: »

Good stuff - he seems like a good option for the muscley ones/first time heifers, he good maternally too- all rounder- I hope he didn't get the bullet (IBR outbreak):mad:

He's good Maternally(Fl22), but not great on maternal calving. He's in the bottom 5% of the Limousin breed......So I'd be slow to breed a heifer from him out of a blue cow. She'd probably be tight at the hips.

Suarez7

hi all...new to this site but find it very interesting.
Have had 2 heifers calve so far to fl22,one a lim and one a white head.both calved at day 270.one easy calved and one a slight pull.both a month old and doing well now but 2nite had a white head 2nd calver calve at day 260 to fl22 also.
All our other cows have calved after their time mostly cf61,tko and elz.All cows got all trace bullets last spring and again 6 weeks before calving.They arn't overfed before calving either.so am wondering has anyone else had any expierience of this bull having such a short gestation?

pakalasa

Suarez7 wrote: »

....fl22......has anyone else had any expierience of this bull having such a short gestation?

According to www.icbf.com again, yep he's in the top 1% of the breed on gestation. They give a value of 288 Days, whereas the breed average is 290 days.

bogman_bass

yeah our lady only went 1 day with her time.

wouldnt be a bad option for dairy cows

Bigbird1

Have a cow gone 9mths and 21days to VGO da charolais,she will go 2/3 days yet...not good

Bizzum

Bigbird1 wrote: »

Have a cow gone 9mths and 21days to VGO da charolais,she will go 2/3 days yet...not good

How many days today is this?
I calved a Charolais cow carrying to Excellent yesterday at 300 days. A heifer calf, not a monster but a proper calf. (And the doziest calf I ever seen, in fact worringly so.)

RobinBanks

Bizzum wrote: »

How many days today is this?
I calved a Charolais cow carrying to Excellent yesterday at 300 days. A heifer calf, not a monster but a proper calf. (And the doziest calf I ever seen, in fact worringly so.)

If ya want long gestation than give landis (BA) to a Ch cow. My one went 305 days! no joke. She would not have calved be herself . I kept thinking that there had to have been some mistake with the date on the AI docket.

Anyway thanks for keeping this thread updated. I gave FL22 to a BB heifer this morning. She is fairly muscly so we will see how it works out. I hope he is as easy calving as is suggested.

Bizzum

RobinBanks wrote: »

If ya want long gestation than give landis (BA) to a Ch cow.

I would if I could get any more straws of Landais! And I did, But I can't remember how long she carried.
I have 2 very nice Landais cows (one out of a PB Charolais) and 1 maiden heifer who was AI'd to FL22 on Saturday.
I have 2 PB Alcazar heifers that I wouldn't mind putting Landais on next backend if I had the straws.

RobinBanks

Last year I had 4 first calf heifers. 3 were in calf to TKO. All calved unassisted, 2 bulls and a heifer. The other was by REQ (heifer). All the TKO calves were very good and quiet. The REQ was a lunatic and small light boned calf.

This year I had 2 first calvers. One calved to ION (heifer) the other to SIX (heifer). The ION calf is very small but well muscled. The SIX calf is tall and square but not very muscly will probably make a nice cow. So based on my own experience I would use TKO and SIX again but not REQ or ION. All were easy calvers to be fair but it depends on the heife as well i suppose.

Bigbird1

Bizzum wrote: »

How many days today is this?
I calved a Charolais cow carrying to Excellent yesterday at 300 days. A heifer calf, not a monster but a proper calf. (And the doziest calf I ever seen, in fact worringly so.)

AI"ed on 15-5-2010 so i make dat 297 days today i think

Bizzum

Bigbird1 wrote: »

AI"ed on 15-5-2010 so i make dat 297 days today i think

No need to panic yet. Normal enough. Hope she's lucky with ya!

Bigbird1

Bizzum wrote: »

No need to panic yet. Normal enough. Hope she's lucky with ya!

thanks bizzum,would like to see her doin somthing soon,290/295 is norm i thought.
they tent to carry long wit lims and shorter wit blues

Bizzum

Bigbird1 wrote: »

would like to see her doin somthing soon

At 297 she will do something soon!
I know its a pain waiting, but thats what ya may do.
The Blonde cows can really hold onto their calves, the BB can be handy to buy you back a bit of time on a late calver alright.

Bodacious

Bizzum wrote: »

At 297 she will do something soon!
I know its a pain waiting, but thats what ya may do.
The Blonde cows can really hold onto their calves, the BB can be handy to buy you back a bit of time on a late calver alright.

i've an 05 red lim cow and she farted out her 4th bb calf, last 2 @ 275 + 277 days.. all heifers though:(

it kills me waiting for these big charolais to roll on out 290 + days big sleepy heads on them, fulltime worrying and putting them up to suck, whereas a lim or bb would be jumping around after the cow:)