BBC On Saorview

Thargor

Does anyone know what the current story is with BBC and/or any of the other UK channels being shown on Irish digital tv?

Bob_Harris

Not a possibility until after analogue switch off, but probably never.

icdg

Thargor wrote: »

Does anyone know what the current story is with BBC and/or any of the other UK channels being shown on Irish digital tv?

We've been through the debate here before many times, including my own personal belief that the availablity of the UK terrestrials would provide a big carrot for refusniks to go digital. In my view, pay-TV in Ireland is no longer as dependant on having the UK terrestrial channels as its main draw (as it most definitely was in the 1980s and early half of the 1990s) and both Sky and UPC would maintain their subscriber numbers regardless of whether or not the BBC was available terrestrially. (After all, its availablity on Freesat hasn't killed either firm).

However, the powers that be have decided that there won't be any UK terrestrials available on Irish DTT. Indeed Saorview will, as it presently stands, essentially be a digital version of the existing analogue service with perhaps the addition of RTÉ News Now (which fails the Ronseal test), Euronews, and 3e. If you want more channels, and don't want pay-TV, you'll need to get Freesat - if you can.

watty

RTE say you should get Freesat.

Read the link!

Debate debates.oireachtas.ie

Mr. Conor Hayes:

The UK channels are available under an approach called Freesat, which is broadcast by a company owned by the BBC and ITV. They broadcast these channels in the clear over Ireland using a wide-band satellite operating in the KU band. RTE’s satellite option is a narrow-band satellite operating in the Ka band. One cannot get them on the same satellite. In the US, there are hybrid dishes available and householders can receive Ka band and Ku band signals. That is technically feasible and there are some 22 million households in the US using it. The cost of the dish is approximately $65.

The other answer is that the transmission cost would have to be paid for. That dwarfs any "rights"/Royalties" payments. It would need a dedicated Multiplex.
The Roll out cost to would have to be paid for.

Who will pay when it's free on Satellite and the PayTV market is saturated?

The Cush

Thargor wrote: »

Does anyone know what the current story is with BBC and/or any of the other UK channels being shown on Irish digital tv?

Just to add to watty's post.

This was the exchange between the committee members and RTÉ's Conor Hayes in relation to the UK channels.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan: People are under the impression that they will be able to receive every channel because there are two multiplexes. What channels will be available under the proposals outlined by Mr. Hayes? Will these be the eight or nine channels listed here? Will the UK channels be available?

Mr. Conor Hayes: The UK channels are available under an approach called Freesat, which is broadcast by a company owned by the BBC and ITV. They broadcast these channels in the clear over Ireland using a wide-band satellite operating in the KU band. RTE’s satellite option is a narrow-band satellite operating in the Ka band. One cannot get them on the same satellite. In the US, there are hybrid dishes available and householders can receive Ka band and Ku band signals. That is technically feasible and there are some 22 million households in the US using it. The cost of the dish is approximately $65.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan: Deputy D’Arcy will have to go to Italy and I will have to go to the US.

Mr. Conor Hayes: We are doing our best to identify solutions.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan: Will people have to get a box for Sky and a box for the UK channels? These are not readily available. People are under the impression they can do this once they switch over.

Mr. Conor Hayes: If people want to stay with Sky and keep paying money, one does not need anything else. The alternative we are providing does not involve pay-TV.

Chairman: The Deputy’s question is whether one can get BBC and ITV.

Mr. Conor Hayes: If one has a satellite.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate...&Ex=All&Page=3

watty

You couldn't make this stuff up. Someone wanting to launch a new payTV service for UK & Ireland even suggested that it was illegal for Freesat to be watched in Ireland. Nonsense.

Prior to Irish Digital you needed Freesat (or Freeview if able to get UK terrestrial), UPC or Sky box if you wanted UK Television. But could ONLY get Widescreen TV of Irish TV via Pay TV.

After Analogue Closedown the situation for UK TV is unchanged, but you be able to get Irish Widescreen and Irish HD TV without payTV.

Where's the problem?

If there was UK TV (inc BBC & ITV) on EXTRA muxes, it would be part of Commercial Pay TV. Not free. The original thinking of DTT in UK and Ireland didn't consider HD.
Really even with just the content that will definitely exist and just two Multiplexes, it will be a very tight squeeze if TV3e is on DTT. TV3e couldn't be in HD if we wanted HD Film Channel. In fact to have RTE1, RTE2, TG4 and TV3 in HD, and Film Channel in HD, it would be better if TV3e wasn't on it. RTE News Now will have to be low bit rate and SD. Children's TV will have to be 544 x 567 ish and poorish bit rate unless Film Channel only on at night.

shinobi

is there a possibility that the UK freesat channels could also move to Ka sat like RTE so thatat the UK has much tighter control of what is viewed regionally & where? Also if this is a cheaper option for RTE then the UK may go this route also?

winston_1

The UK channels only have rights to be broadcast to the UK. Think yourself lucky that he laws of physics allow the satellite footprint to be receivable in Ireland. There is no way the rights holders would allow them to be deliberately broadcast there either via a Ka band satellite or Saroview any more than the rights holders would allow Irish TV to be broadcast to the UK.

Just to add, I don't support this, but it is the facts. I would welcome being able to receive Irish TV here as much as you would like UK TV.

The Cush

shinobi wrote: »

is there a possibility that the UK freesat channels could also move to Ka sat like RTE so thatat the UK has much tighter control of what is viewed regionally & where? Also if this is a cheaper option for RTE then the UK may go this route also?

Not an option right now, almost every satellite dish in the UK is fitted with a Ku Band LNB for either Sky or Freesat and pointing at 28 deg. East.

Of the new fleet of dedicated Ka satellites Hylas has one spot beam covering Ireland & Britain from 33.5 deg. West and Ka-Sat requires 4 spot beams to cover the UK from 9 deg. East.

In the distant future who knows, Astra will have Ka capacity at 28 deg. East from late 2012/2013 (Astra 2 E/F/G).

watty

Hylas1 is very low capacity, practically a test bed. Its Ku is for TV and its Ka is for Internet. Hylas 2 and the Astra 2E, 2F, 2G may be a similar time frame.

Any move by Freesat to Ka would likely be 10+ years ahead. Also it's very difficult if not impossible to get Ka and Ku from the SAME satellite on the SAME dish. Much easier if 4deg to 6 degree apart, then a dual feed with separate Ka/Ku LNBFs will work. If Saorsat was on 26E, 28E or 30E, but Ka Band then a single dish system for Freesat + Saorsat would be nearly impossible, certainly more expensive and poorer performance than dual feed which can easily feed Multiple TV/Boxes too.

watty

winston_1 wrote: »

The UK channels only have rights to be broadcast to the UK.
...

any more than the rights holders would allow Irish TV to be broadcast to the UK.

Just to add, I don't support this, but it is the facts. I would welcome being able to receive Irish TV here as much as you would like UK TV.

Actually often UK broadcaster rights do include all of the Island of Ireland, but since UK is at least a 20 times bigger market, the Irish Broadcaster rights don't. Even "home" produced content would cost more if it was for UK Market. Not just Sports and Imports. I'm sure this irks TV3.

Minstrel27

watty wrote: »

Actually often UK broadcaster rights do include all of the Island of Ireland

Correct. The BBC for example are listed as rights holders for Moto GP in Ireland.

Peter Henderson

How many viewers have Freesat got in the ROI ? In order to receive BBC1 NI and Ulster TV as defaults in the ROI, do you not have to enter a NI postcode ? Or does the freesat box default to BBC1 and ITV 1 London if no postcode is entered ?

I still think it is technically feasible to have the RTE channels available for viewers on Freesat in all of Ireland and blocked for those in Great Britian (i.e. England Scotland, and Wales). Why can't they do this ? Surely it would be far cheaper and simpler solution than lauching a seperate satellite and having to develope entirely different receivers and dishes.

SRB

winston_1 wrote: »

The UK channels only have rights to be broadcast to the UK. Think yourself lucky that he laws of physics allow the satellite footprint to be receivable in Ireland. There is no way the rights holders would allow them to be deliberately broadcast there either via a Ka band satellite or Saroview any more than the rights holders would allow Irish TV to be broadcast to the UK.

Just to add, I don't support this, but it is the facts. I would welcome being able to receive Irish TV here as much as you would like UK TV.

The UK channels generally buy the rights on a UK and Ireland basis. RTE are only on Sat due to a deal they struck with Sky, it'll be interesting to see what happens when Saroview (on Sat) launches and if RTE remain on the Sky Platform.

The Cush

Peter Henderson wrote: »

How many viewers have Freesat got in the ROI ? In order to receive BBC1 NI and Ulster TV as defaults in the ROI, do you not have to enter a NI postcode ? Or does the freesat box default to BBC1 and ITV 1 London if no postcode is entered ?

I still think it is technically feasible to have the RTE channels available for viewers on Freesat in all of Ireland and blocked for those in Great Britian (i.e. England Scotland, and Wales). Why can't they do this ? Surely it would be far cheaper and simpler solution than lauching a seperate satellite and having to develope entirely different receivers and dishes.

NI postcode for BBC NI and UTV. I think a postcode is always required when installing a freesat receiver, no default region.

Freesat is basically the epg, the channels are still FTA and can be tuned in on any non-freesat receiver, not an option for the Irish channels.

Nothing has changed since you last asked the question - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68149116#post68149116

watty

The basic 4 Irish channels will remain on Sky and UPC, indefinately.

Eventually, but not any time soon (long after DTT HD) there will be HD versions. This has been publically confirmed.

x in the city

can you pick up saroview fta channels on a tv with mpeg4 and an existing analog aerial?

sorry for the nob question..!

Tom Slick

Yes, but it has to be MPEG4 level 4 to decode HD broadcasts (RTE2 currently, eventually all main channels).
Aerial must be UHF (currently receiving TV3 or TG4 analogue)
Take a look at relevant threads in this forum, also: here

winston_1

There is no such thing as an analogue or digital aerial. They are just lumps of metal for receiving signals. However you do need a UHF aerial for Saroview not a VHF type.

khumbu

Maybe the reciprocal arrangement RTE could have is for saorview to carry "BBC world news"
If this is the case, it would complement the 28e channels available to those who have them but technically saorview is carrying BBC.

watty

khumbu wrote: »

Maybe the reciprocal arrangement RTE could have is for saorview to carry "BBC world news"
If this is the case, it would complement the 28e channels available to those who have them but technically saorview is carrying BBC.

Where?
There will be no space on the two PSB muxes. They could carry "BBC something" in the evening on the Childrens's Channel instead of Proposed RTE1 +1. They will be doing Euronews later over night on that. There is a reason to carry "Euronews" rather than "BBC News 24" or "BBC World News" overnight*.

The Rights costs for BBC, ITV, C4 etc isn't high. (BBC World News may be "free"). The issue is that another Multiplex would be needed. An extra €20M in roll out costs and €5M to €10M a year running costs. Maybe much more.


*

Selected by the European Commission to broadcast EU-related programming, its function corresponds to a public national broadcaster. The channel receives €5 million of funding each year, and 10% or more of its production must consist of information and debates which are directly related to issues regarding the European Union. The channel also devoted a significant amount of attention to EU-related subjects prior to receiving this mandate due to its pan-European television network formation.

RTE is one of the original founders of Euronews.

windsurfer99ie

I follow the technical arguments here (I think) and I apologise if this has been covered elsewhere, but I'd be interested to hear if people are aware of this (source Irish Times 2 Feb 2010):

"MARK HENNESSY London Editor

RTÉ TELEVISION channels and TG4 will be freely available throughout all of Northern Ireland from 2012, once the planned digital television changes come into force, Minister for Communications Eamon Ryan said yesterday.

Some BBC channels will equally be carried free on the system due to come into force in the Republic at the same time, under the deal signed yesterday in London between Mr Ryan and his British counterpart, Ben Bradshaw.

The deal will ensure that the Irish and British authorities co-operate on the transition from analogue to digital television services, including joint ownership of television masts along the border."

Peter Rhea

windsurfer99ie wrote: »

I follow the technical arguments here (I think) and I apologise if this has been covered elsewhere, but I'd be interested to hear if people are aware of this (source Irish Times 2 Feb 2010):

"MARK HENNESSY London Editor

RTÉ TELEVISION channels and TG4 will be freely available throughout all of Northern Ireland from 2012 . . .
. . . including joint ownership of television masts along the border."

Just new here but a quick search found this

The Cush

windsurfer99ie wrote: »

I follow the technical arguments here (I think) and I apologise if this has been covered elsewhere, but I'd be interested to hear if people are aware of this (source Irish Times 2 Feb 2010):

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055815871

watty

Hi Peter!

Welcome to Bedlam

Peter Rhea

Bedlam indeed!
At least here there's a bit of an effort being made to sort out the confusion surrounding Irish tv at the moment.

windsurfer99ie

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Just new here but a quick search found this

Thank you for that, and again apologies for not spotting that myself.

Mike 1972

shinobi wrote: »

is there a possibility that the UK freesat channels could also move to Ka sat like RTE so thatat the UK has much tighter control of what is viewed regionally & where? Also if this is a cheaper option for RTE then the UK may go this route also?

And who would pay for millions of LNB's (and possibly recievers) to be replaced across the UK ? Cant see Ka band being used much outside of Ireland TBH except for feeds and delivering "broadband" to remote areas. Broadcasters dontneed the extra bandwidth unless every gaming/TXT/softporn/+1/religious/shopping/regional optout/interactive/general waste-of-space channel goes HD.

The use of Ka band for broadcasting is pretty much an Irish solution to an imaginary problem.

shinobi

Mike 1972 wrote: »

And who would pay for millions of LNB's (and possibly recievers) to be replaced across the UK ? Cant see Ka band being used much outside of Ireland TBH except for feeds and delivering "broadband" to remote areas. Broadcasters dontneed the extra bandwidth unless every gaming/TXT/softporn/+1/religious/shopping/regional optout/interactive/general waste-of-space channel goes HD.

The use of Ka band for broadcasting is pretty much an Irish solution to an imaginary problem.

I suggested this as I thought it would be a a cheaper option for the UK, as it is for Ireland to use. Also with the Spot beams for KaSat would make it easier to "regionalise" programmes. As for paying for "Millions" of LNB's ~€15 per household or 1/4 monthly SKY sub hardly seems excessive cost be it subsidised or paid for by each household.
Anyway it was a hypothetical question. Thanks to Watty & The Cush for the comprehensive replies.

Mike 1972

shinobi wrote: »

As for paying for "Millions" of LNB's ~€15 per household or 1/4 monthly SKY sub hardly seems excessive cost be it subsidised or paid for by each household.

So am I take it you are our first volunteer for this national squad of unpaid satellite engineers who are going to climb ladders and roofs across the UK and Ireland replacing obsolete LNB's ?

STB

Mike 1972 wrote: »

The use of Ka band for broadcasting is pretty much an Irish solution to an imaginary problem.

It is not imaginary.

It is the reality of respecting the right you have been given and the associated monies you have paid. Broadcast to 5 million people the cost is x. Broadcast to xxx the costs are prohibitive to having the service on in the first place.

KA is a solution to an Irish problem alright, the problem of reaching hard to reach areas. However it is also a solution to providing a satellite service unencrypted to the whole of ROI in parallel to DTT without pissing off rights holders. Its the first time it has presented itself for the UK and Ireland. You will see more narrow beams as a result of HD content that rights holders are very keen to keep within controlled markets so that they can sell it elsewhere on the continent.

Ka use is already out there without spot beams. Advanced Communication Technology System (USA), Superbird and N-STAR (Japan), HOT BIRD 6 (Eutelsat, France), DFS Kopernikus (Germany), and Italsat (Italy).

The new satellites aimed at DTH HDTV have spot beam technology.

Mike 1972

STB wrote: »

It is not imaginary.

It is the reality of respecting the right you have been given and the associated monies you have paid. Broadcast to 5 million people the cost is x. Broadcast to xxx the costs are prohibitive to having the service on in the first place.
.

Weve already had this debate in the thread I linked to. Unless someone has new points to add which havent been covered already I dont see the point in rehashing it all over again.

STB

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Weve already had this debate in the thread I linked to. Unless someone has new points to add which havent been covered already I dont see the point in rehashing it all over again.

And it is clear that we need to have it again Mike as you dont seem to understand that it doesnt matter who is watching, it is the principle of broadcasting unencrypted with rights that were retained for ROI outside that jurisdiction. It would be a free for all otherwise. RTE are a national broadcaster, not a pan european.

Again it is not an imaginary problem. It is a problem facing all European broadcasters with bought in content.

Clearly the common European market doesn't extend to television or cars despite platitudes.
Isn't it surprising how rights holders are allowed to regionalise the sale of them like they do in Europe in what is supposed to be a common market.

Mike 1972

STB wrote: »

And it is clear that we need to have it again Mike as you dont seem to understand that it doesnt matter who is watching, it is the principle of broadcasting unencrypted with rights that were retained for ROI outside that jurisdiction. It would be a free for all otherwise. RTE are a national broadcaster, not a pan european.

Again it is not an imaginary problem. It is a problem facing all European broadcasters with bought in content.

Troll and partonise all you like but Im not going to be drawn into yet another bunfight. The other thread is there and linked for anone else who's interested.

watty

Mike 1972 wrote: »

So am I take it you are our first volunteer for this national squad of unpaid satellite engineers who are going to climb ladders and roofs across the UK and Ireland replacing obsolete LNB's ?

Already been done twice...
C-band to Ku-band
Squarials to dish + LNBF

Then Ku-band Standard or Telecom LNBs (analogue Era) by Universal Ku-Band LNBFs for Digital.

The UK is not using Ka any time soon for DTH. But with HD and maybe 3D, and the MUCH lower Broadcaster cost they will eventually. Maybe 10 years time. The UK will be using Ka band to feed DTT sites in the next few years.

Irish TV needs "geographic" limited area is artificial due to how economics of not just Sport & Holywood, but even Irish Productions and royalties to Actors, Composers, Musicians and Presenters are based on potential Audience size. To claim it's imaginary problem (even for UK) is totally naive.

In fact with ASO finally in UK 2012/2013 there will be very little growth in Satellite TV in UK by 2015.

Satellites and equipment wear out over a 15 year time scale. Broadcasters are more concerned nowadays about their costs, not the public's costs.

Currently Scheduled ka-Band launches and the recent ones.
http://www.lyngsat.com/launches/ka.html

Includes THREE Astra satellites for 28.2E

Most of the drive for Ka-band is for communications and Internet, not TV. But it's very very much cheaper than Ku. Costs the Sat operator maybe 1/10th to 1/20th of Ku. Not all that saving will be passed to broadcasters.

For next 15 years Ka will be niche TV applications like Irish TV for Fill-in. Also all the UK broadcasters have expensive encrypted feeds on other satellites they will replace with FTA (clear) feeds to feed DTT sites as Ireland will be doing.

Cinema feeds (but encrypted and keyed to GPS and box) will also be on Ka.

Mike 1972

watty wrote: »

Already been done twice...
C-band to Ku-band
Squarials to dish + LNBF.

Hardly comparing like with like.
When we went to C-Band to Ku the installed base of dishes in the UK cant have been any more than a couple of thousand and dishes at the time were rarely mounted at roof/first floor level due to (among other things) their sheer physical size.
The move from Squarials was at the insistance of the (UK) regulators and paid for (reluctantly) by $ky even then the installed base was only a small fraction of what it is today.

watty wrote: »

Then Ku-band Standard or Telecom LNBs (analogue Era) by Universal Ku-Band LNBFs for Digital.

Part of a wider replacement cycle for dishes/recievers due to introduction of Sky digital.

watty wrote: »

Broadcasters are more concerned nowadays about their costs, not the public's costs..

Broadcasters still heavily subsidise recieve equipment and installation

watty wrote: »

Most of the drive for Ka-band is for communications and Internet, not TV. But it's very very much cheaper than Ku.

Some might say that Ku is "too cheap" as things stand (Witness the proliferation of junk channels cluttering up the EPG/Transponders)

(Other comments ignored as per previous posts above)

STB

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Troll and partonise all you like but Im not going to be drawn into yet another bunfight. The other thread is there and linked for anone else who's interested.

Who is trolling.

You hyperlinked your own thread and definition of imaginary vis a vis Ireland use of Kasat for Ireland. You dont like that Ireland cant be FTA like our nearest neighbours the UK on satellite. I dont like it either. But I do understand and have considered the possibility that it is outside the control of RTE.

Deleted User wrote: »

Clearly the common European market doesn't extend to television or cars despite platitudes.
Isn't it surprising how rights holders are allowed to regionalise the sale of them like they do in Europe in what is supposed to be a common market.

Tell that to HBO, the Premier League, UEFA, ERU etc.

It is one of the criticisms of the current Premier League market model that broadcasters include clauses in their subscription contracts with consumers that forbid the use of broadcasters' decoder cards outside the designated territory. The effect of such restrictions is that it does of course create territorial monopolies.

The other side of a succesful outcome for Katherine Murphy in the case currently before the European Court of Justice is that football rights - or any media rights - might have to be sold on a Europe-wide basis, in which case only a handful of companies will be able to afford to bid.