Why are Irish people so divided on the issue of Irish Republicanism?

paky

Why do you think Irish people are so divided on the issue of Irish Republicanism? I cant understand it. I feel its almost offensive to people to be an Irish Republican or in anyway patriotic. If its OK to be patriotic in the UK and in the US then why is it so difficult in Ireland?

ardmacha

Me feiners, and I'm all right Jack merchants.

dfbemt

ardmacha wrote: »

Me feiners, and I'm all right Jack merchants.

I think you meant Sinn Feiners and Union Jack merchants

ballsymchugh

maybe because of how it's been hijacked by a small minority who've murdered innocent people in it's name.
british people are also divided, as to be a nationalist there infers that you're involved with far right parties.

fudgez

Irish Nationalism far too often takes on ugly traits. I am a patriotic Irish man but I do not want myself associated with people who sing songs honouring murderers. This is supposed to be the isle of saints and scholars, so many people died for this land and were killed for our freedom, ironic that on the other side of our struggle a different Ireland appeared, A capitalist greedy nation who puts hardly any value into the arts. Somehow I don't think this is what our great grandparents were fighting for.

eddyc

I think many people don't see any clear advantages to an all Ireland government. In many peoples eyes republican cause is associated with violence and terrorism and the republic voted to remove its claim over the north.

fudgez

eddyc wrote: »

I think many people don't see any clear advantages to an all Ireland government. In many peoples eyes republican cause is associated with violence and terrorism and the republic voted to remove its claim over the north.

There is hardly any advantage to an All-Ireland goverment other then that feeling of sovereignty. When the chips are down though wouldn't it be much better to be in Scotland's position right now where our economy would be largely managed by a government that has a bit more experience dealing with these situations

ardmacha

I think many people don't see any clear advantages to an all Ireland government.

There is hardly any advantage to an All-Ireland goverment

Thank you for reinforcing my point in post #2.

gbee

ballsymchugh wrote: »

maybe because of how it's been hijacked by a small minority who've murdered innocent people in it's name..

And to add, we've been informed on down through the years by our OWN. Crazy, crazy, crazy, yes, crazy. Sometimes I think we should all sign into the GF ward and stay there.

We've had many attempts are insurrection in the past, some, as with the Spanish we probably were lucky to have been defeated as the Spanish had their own acquisition plans ... which shows another Irish trait in general, we tend to be a bit stupid and gullible.

Anyway history says that most of our plans would not have succeed and at best we'd have had more partitioning of the country, perhaps a Spanish enclave in the South West, a French and German enclave in the West and North West, more or less the current partition in the North in British control and a few pockets of independent states.

History suggests that our best plan was the 1798 Vinegar Hill rising, where we had tactical and numeric supremacy, with a strong, well armed [with pikes] self contained insurgent groups that did co-ordinate and move with unity ~ perhaps the only example of same.

Nonetheless, men in our own ranks, informed the inferior British force of all our plans and routes, enabling him to engage and destroy small insurgent groups as they marched to unite into the main battle group.

A fantastic effort by the British Red Coat commander defeated us on information freely given to him. Crazy, crazy, crazy.

Militarily the 1916 rising was doomed to failure and joins the pile of failures, again, for a reason that does not satisfy me [personally] the rising's effectiveness and chaos of war opportunities were totally scuttled by the rising's Commander In Chief.

Sadly, the divides are still with us today, during the last Easter Commemorations locally, I spoke to four different groups. Their views ranged from the Northern Ireland peace process to be a way forward in economic and political sharing, others took an opposing view similar to the divide that Collin's Treaty caused.

My own view is that the peace process pandered to a defeated terrorist goup or groups and they should have been engaged militarily as, IMO, their ability to strike back effectively was defeated by lack of arms, money, men. Instead we drag on a peace process for years, whilst our country was sliding back to the stone age and dancing in the mists of mythology.

MagicSean

In the grand scheme of it does it really matter anymore? We're all european now.

Qualitymark

Two reasons. One is, as people above have posted, that cruel things have been done since the 1960s in the name of the Republic.

The other is the natural swing of opinion - from strong Republican feeling in the early years of the state, to moving away from that in the next generation, and probably swinging back again.

The unpatriotic corruption of recent governments hasn't helped either.

jackbenimble

paky wrote: »

Why do you think Irish people are so divided on the issue of Irish Republicanism? I cant understand it. I feel its almost offensive to people to be an Irish Republican or in anyway patriotic. If its OK to be patriotic in the UK and in the US then why is it so difficult in Ireland?

Mass murder in the name of Irish Republicanism? Illegal and predatory claims on a neighbouring countries territory against the will of most who live there? Who knows?

What I can't understand is why people are so divided on the issue of National Socialism in Germany in the thirties and fourties...

eddyc

ardmacha wrote: »

Thank you for reinforcing my point in post #2.

So why is it selfish, selfish of Ireland as a state to not make a territorial claim on the north? Or selfish of an individual citizen who agrees with the policy.

ardmacha

Or selfish of an individual citizen who agrees with the policy.

There are many many people who would object strongly if the British took over their street who are perfectly happy to see the this happen in someone else's street and who furthermore obtain a sick satisfaction from the discomforture of people elsewhere being subject to this while they are not.

alex73

paky wrote: »

Why do you think Irish people are so divided on the issue of Irish Republicanism? I cant understand it. I feel its almost offensive to people to be an Irish Republican or in anyway patriotic. If its OK to be patriotic in the UK and in the US then why is it so difficult in Ireland?

Which planet to you live on?? I am Irish and proud of it. (like other millions of Irish in Ireland and abroad)

I think Ireland needed to become independent when it did as Irish Catholics were actively discriminated in the UK, I mean if ireland were really part of the UK then and Irish man would stand as good a chance of becoming prime minister as a scottishman, however a catholic Irishman would never be elected to that position, therefore we had no choice be to revert to an independent state, as we were never treated as equals in the UK.

That does not mean I have a banaclava and riffle in the closet.

Nodin

alex73 wrote: »

.........
That does not mean I have a banaclava and riffle in the closet.

True, the fridge would be a more appropriate storage place.

Rabble Rabble

jackbenimble wrote: »

Mass murder in the name of Irish Republicanism? Illegal and predatory claims on a neighbouring countries territory against the will of most who live there? Who knows?

What I can't understand is why people are so divided on the issue of National Socialism in Germany in the thirties and fourties...

Godwin! We have our man!

Motley Crue

I'm Irish and proud of it and despite what the IRA have done I'm still proud of my heritage, just not RTE

PeterIanStaker

Well, the way I see it, in my total cynicism, republicanism is useful for keeping FF in power because every election the papers will use the word itself to scare the herd.

DublinWriter

k_mac wrote: »

In the grand scheme of it does it really matter anymore? We're all european now.

The older I get, the more I realise that the whole patriotism thing is just a bottle of smoke.

As long as we have democratic, human and civil rights then you could run a pair of underpants up the flagpole and I'd salute it.

MysticalRain

The vast majority of Irish people are proud of their country. The only "divide" here is whether or not people believe it's right to murder innocent civilians in the name of our nation.

paky

DublinWriter wrote: »

The older I get, the more I realise that the whole patriotism thing is just a bottle of smoke.

As long as we have democratic, human and civil rights then you could run a pair of underpants up the flagpole and I'd salute it.

Im starting to believe that myself.

KeithAFC

MysticalRain wrote: »

The vast majority of Irish people are proud of their country. The only "divide" here is whether or not people believe it's right to murder innocent civilians in the name of our nation.

Its no surprise some people might not be patriotic in the republic when you have people like Gerry Adams running about pretending to represent most Irish people who can't even admit he was in the PIRA.

gbee

KeithAFC wrote: »

Irish people who can't even admit he was in the PIRA.

Met him in Inchigeela when he was still on the run.

I gave out to my wife a few years later when she shook hands with both him and McGuinness ~ in the Imperial Hotel, South Mall, Cork.

I've never shaken their hands for the same suspicion you raise.

jackbenimble

MysticalRain wrote: »

The vast majority of Irish people are proud of their country. The only "divide" here is whether or not people believe it's right to murder innocent civilians in the name of our nation.

What about murdering soldiers and policemen in the name of your nation?

gbee

jackbenimble wrote: »

What about murdering soldiers and policemen in the name of your nation?

Soldiers are, just what they are, I've served, dodged a bullet once, my brother served, dodged Israeli machine guns attacks and an Israeli mortar attack on his [Irish] compound in Lebanon.

But policemen, now this is a very tragic tale in Irish society, and murdered they were, rightly or wrongly, the British ruling government installed local men to be local police.

It may or may not have been a good idea, I'm not sure, but because a local boy put on the RIC uniform, he became a 'legitimate' target. But it was murder, but I've spoken to people who are so passionate about this subject, that, 60 years later, despite their grief, "they'd shoot him again!"

A strange mixture of sorrow and regret, yet the determination that the shooting was 'necessary' if not just.

MysticalRain

jackbenimble wrote: »

What about murdering soldiers and policemen in the name of your nation?

That's called war, not murder. I also disagree with that for the same reasons I diagree with why most nations go to war.

MysticalRain

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its no surprise some people might not be patriotic in the republic when you have people like Gerry Adams running about pretending to represent most Irish people who can't even admit he was in the PIRA.

I agree too. Although I could also understand why Protestants up north might not feel very patriotic if people like ian Paisley were claiming to represent their side.

Wolfe Tone

I am proud of my country, I love my country and I am a republican. Have a problem with that?


I don't give a damn.

CoalBucket

Every political party in this country stems from Irish republicanism and the armed struggle ( with the exception of the greens, who lets face it won't exist in the next 3 years )

Irish people in essence are not divided on republicanism at all.

steelcityblues

ardmacha wrote: »

Me feiners, and I'm all right Jack merchants.

Who have voted overwhelmingly for FF through the years!

Denerick

Because Irish Republicanism is inextricably linked with extreme romantic nationalism that died a death across Europe following WWI. For some reason, the idea that tiny elites can wage war in the name of a people who haven't being consulted still has traction on this island. My heroes are men like O'Connell, not petit bourgeouis loons like Pearse.

'Patriotism' is a load of bull**** crockery at any rate. As that (Great) Irishman Bernard Shaw said, 'Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it'

jock101

Maybe its because so called Irish republicanism has done such a great job here for the few since 1922!:rolleyes: The Royal families in the Dail!:mad: Two fingers to this kip and its thick mentality!:mad::mad::mad::mad:

imme

What does it mean 'Republicanism?'.
It means one thing to someone and something else to someone else. The term republic has many different attributes in different different republics.

In the same being a patriot means very different things to USA people and a different thing to others.


Each republic in the world is different. Ours is pretty different to most, given our history. Are we (the Irish people) naturally republicans in the political sense or are we default republicans.
Republicanism and patriotism are not the same thing OP.

Sand

Theres a confusion:

When self described Irish Republicans talk about patriotism, they mean a manic fixiation on the irrelevant sideshow of partition, complete and total amorality in the pursuit of ending partition, and contempt and disdain for the Irish people, their laws, institutions and state.

Given Irish Republicans have so successfuly internationally branded Irish patriotism as being kneecapping teenagers, leaving no warning car bombs to murder families and robbing banks then its perhaps unsurprising Irish people who are appalled by all of the above want to put clear blue water between themselves and self described "Irish Republicans".

Thats not to say they dont feel patriotic, but patriotism to most Irish people isnt about partition and being okay with terrorism. Thats fairly alien to self described Irish Republicans, because for them partition and amorality (moral reservation?) are the defining characteristics of patriotism.

Similarly, Irish Republicans have no place for civic patriotism or integrity in office. They dont respect the Irish people, or their state, or its laws or institutions. Hence they dont view people who do respect any of the above as being patriots. So whilst you have patriots like Shane Ross working to try represent the Irish people by demanding truth and accountability from the government, that has no value to Irish Republicans. To them, Shane Ross is missing the big picture - end partition they say, and everything will be better by default.

Its open for debate whose actually doing most for the Irish people/nation.

DoireNod

Propaganda... :pac:

round tower huntsman

after the treaty any one that threatened the free state or status quo was deemed a rebel. some were ex communicated,hanged,shunned.................this goes on right up to today.
some believe what the state and state press tell em some dont.

Micky Machiavelli

steelcityblues wrote: »

Who have voted overwhelmingly for FF through the years!

Do you have a better idea? Spill it !

Eliot Rosewater

I don't put much stock in this idea of a Nation. The State's purpose, for me, is to protect my civil liberties, to protect me from violence, and to provide services that are seen as beneficial to society.

However, those who believe in this idea of a Nation want more. They want the State to dictate cultural values. They want it to revere a certain historical narrative. They want it to push an idealised type of lifestyle on the population.

And a lot of this encroaches on my individuality.

I don't like Irish. I don't derive any pleasure from the Irish language. But this, apparently, is not good enough. I must learn Irish because, according to the Nation, that is my culture, like it or not. What nationalists don't realise is that culture is often something personal to the individual. My favourite cultural pursuit is reading English literature. But that is simply not respected.

ardmacha

What nationalists don't realise is that culture is often something personal to the individual.

There is no such thing as society, eh. Me Feiners, as I said at the start.

deise go deo

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

However, those who believe in this idea of a Nation want more. They want the State to dictate cultural values. They want it to revere a certain historical narrative. They want it to push an idealised type of lifestyle on the population.

Well like it or not a historical narritaive exists, That you dont agree with its interpretation dosent change that.

And a lot of this encroaches on my liberty.

How

I don't like Irish. I don't derive any pleasure from the Irish language. But this, apparently, is not good enough. I must learn Irish because, according to the Nation, that is my culture, like it or not. What nationalists don't realise is that culture is often something personal to the individual. My favourite cultural pursuit is reading English literature. But that is simply not respected.

Would you act in a way that may destroy something just because you don't like it? Irish is fragile at the moment, When it gains its feet then weather or not it should be compulsory can be discuses, Before that we would see the loss of something that makes us who we are as a people.
Culture is personal to the individual but what you seem to not realize that a people also have a shared culture, That you may not have an interest in a specific aspect of it dose not take away from it being Our Culture.
I have no problem with you reading English literature, In what way is your choice not respected?

KeithAFC

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I don't put much stock in this idea of a Nation. The State's purpose, for me, is to protect my civil liberties, to protect me from violence, and to provide services that are seen as beneficial to society.

However, those who believe in this idea of a Nation want more. They want the State to dictate cultural values. They want it to revere a certain historical narrative. They want it to push an idealised type of lifestyle on the population.

And a lot of this encroaches on my liberty.

I don't like Irish. I don't derive any pleasure from the Irish language. But this, apparently, is not good enough. I must learn Irish because, according to the Nation, that is my culture, like it or not. What nationalists don't realise is that culture is often something personal to the individual. My favourite cultural pursuit is reading English literature. But that is simply not respected.

Your free to do what you want surely?

Eliot Rosewater

deise go deo wrote: »

How

When I was in school I was forced to learn Irish even though I extremely disliked it and I knew it would be useless to me afterwards (it has been).

deise go deo wrote: »

Would you act in a way that may destroy something just because you don't like it?

I have no responsibility towards the Irish language, which is what you're implying here. I do not overly care about its preservation because it doesn't hold any cultural importance for me personally. If a group of people want to keep it alive then I admire them for having something they enjoy, but that is no reason to have it compulsory.

KeithAFC wrote: »

Your free to do what you want surely?

Once again, the Irish thing in schools.

I have many more dislikes about Irish nationalism, but its tendency to use the State to force the population to tow its mythical national view is really the only one that affects me personally. The sense of Irish exceptionalism and the twisting of Irish history merely annoy me, without actually affecting me.

listermint

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I have many more dislikes about Irish nationalism, but its tendency to use the State to force the population to tow its mythical national view is really the only one that affects me personally. The sense of Irish exceptionalism and the twisting of Irish history merely annoy me, without actually affecting me.

Is it not the case of all 'states' that the majority are given a historical path or guide to follow during the period growing up in school until you are 'free' to evaluate and come to your own conclusions when you have left the school system. I dont know why you seem to believe this is unique to Ireland / Irish culture.

Alas everyone is different. English literature doesnt interest me at all. but i dont derive people of the pleasure OR give out due to the fact that i HAD to study it during school......

Bottle_of_Smoke

deise go deo wrote: »

Would you act in a way that may destroy something just because you don't like it? Irish is fragile at the moment, When it gains its feet then weather or not it should be compulsory can be discuses,

Eh, lets look at this objectively. Irish has been compulsory since the foundation of the free state. Back then hundreds of thousands of people could speak Irish.

After a hundred years of forcing people to do it Irish has gotten closer and closer to extinction.

Not think there might be a connection?

Before that we would see the loss of something that makes us who we are as a people.

Completely reject this. Irish is not our native language, it is a native language of the island.

People in Dublin have been speaking English for hundreds of years and have produced worldwide esteemed writers. The city is based on a viking settlement. Quite frankly expecting everyone in Ireland to learn Irish is somewhat akin to making everyone in Britiain speak Welsh, or everyone in Netherlands spek Fresian.

oscarBravo

Before we go too far down the Irish language tangent, there's an active thread on the topic already. Yes, I know it's an aspect of Irish Republicanism, but it's essentially off-topic.

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Eh, lets look at this objectively. Irish has been compulsory since the foundation of the free state. Back then hundreds of thousands of people could speak Irish.

After a hundred years of forcing people to do it Irish has gotten closer and closer to extinction.

Not think there might be a connection?

Irish along with many subjects has been thought extremely badly over the last 90 years. Rote learning with out any understanding and a massive over emphasis on poetry and written work.

Completely reject this. Irish is not our native language, it is a native language of the island.

People in Dublin have been speaking English for hundreds of years and have produced worldwide esteemed writers. The city is based on a viking settlement. Quite frankly expecting everyone in Ireland to learn Irish is somewhat akin to making everyone in Britiain speak Welsh, or everyone in Netherlands spek Fresian.

Irish was the language that was spoken across this Island in the past, It is not like welsh in that regard. It is like welsh people speaking their language in wales.

There is a strong Irish movement in Dublin, It seams to be doing quite well there, Dublin is not the only settlement that was founded by the Vikings, I don't see how that has a bearing on the Irish language.

Do you believe that no subject should be compulsory? Personally I dident enjoy having English literature 'Forced down my throat' and it has been absolutely useless to me ever since, Should that also be done away with?


Edit: Dident see that Oscar, Ill Be good:o

OhNoYouDidn't

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

My favourite cultural pursuit is reading English literature. But that is simply not respected.

The big bad fenians stopping you from reading books now? For the love of god.... :rolleyes:

OhNoYouDidn't

I think one of the dynamics here that can't be ignored is a reactionary right wing dislike of the concept of rebellion and the empowerment that it gives ordinary folk. The Republican movement not only opposes British Imperialism, it opposes the crony capitalism and corruption endemic in the southern elite.

Some of the people posting that the IRA are inhumae killers were loud cheerleaders for the destruction of Iraq, so it isn't really a human issue for a lot of them, even though thats often the tack. Its a 'shut up and do what you are told' issue, and Republicans refuse to do that, to the point of being a major and significant threat to the failed political and econonmic arrangment in the south, and thats to me a source of great deal of the hostility.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Eliot Rosewater

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The big bad fenians stopping you from reading books now? For the love of god...

Though the issue of the Irish language has been deemed off-topic (listermint, if you want to talk about it you can send me a PM) I feel I have to respond this comment.

I'm not saying I am prevented from reading English literature, of course (though if I were living sixty years ago I would have been ). What I am saying is that my own choice of culture is not considered. The nationalist will step in and tell me about how Irish is my culture and about how I have a responsibility to learn it for fourteen years. I disagree, but that doesn't matter: I still have to learn it. Hence, my own opinion about what is a worthy cultural pursuit is not respected.

(My initial phrasing was far less precise, and I apologise for that.)