How religion is killing our most vulnerable youth.

Links234

this is an extremely good read: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bishop-gene-robinson/how-religion-is-killing-o_b_764568.html

although it's written by a bishop, he makes some very good points and delivers a powerful message.

Dades

*Bump* ... since this article was reposted and had yet to be commented on.

Zombrex

Reminds me of a sign I saw at a protest against Fred Phelps

Are you Gay? God hates you. Thank goodness then he doesn't exist!

I think humanists share a responsibility to reach out to these kids and to tell them there is an alternative to feeling like your nature is wrong.

philologos

Links234 wrote: »

although it's written by a bishop, he makes some very good points and delivers a powerful message.

Surely it's irrelevant whether or not he wrote it?

It's fairly predictable that he is writing it considering his role in the current dispute in the Anglican communion.

I and others would disagree with him on the basis that I wouldn't consider it necessary to change what is believed to be God given in order to not verbally or physically abuse people who are LGBT. It is wholly possible to agree to disagree, and equally to condemn mistreatment in larger society.

Interestingly, he writes that this theology must be changed in order to communicate that God loves unconditionally, and indeed that people should love unconditionally. However, one can love someone, but yet not approve of everything they do. This is true in child parent relationships, and I would hold that it is pretty true in respect to God also.

That's my take, I suspect it will be ripped apart!

strobe

Jakkass wrote: »

I wouldn't consider it necessary to change what is believed to be God given in order to not verbally or physically abuse people who are LGBT

What about psychological and emotional abuse Jakkass?

Ickle Magoo

Or the fact any LGBT must deny themselves anything that would make them LGBT to be considered acceptable is the epitome of what the bishop describes - trying to make out some are not homophobic, exclusive and treating LGBT like second class citizens by making out it's actually god that hates gays is frankly laughable.

philologos

strobe wrote: »

What about psychological and emotional abuse Jakkass?

You'll need to describe what constitutes this. Personally, I don't consider mere disagreement to be abusive.

Ickle Magoo: Personally, I believe there is no Biblical evidence to suggest that God hates LGBT people. God doesn't approve of certain things. It is wholly possible for one to love, while remaining in disagreement. Disagreement and hate being poles apart.

strobe

Jakkass wrote: »

You'll need to describe what constitutes this. Personally, I don't consider mere disagreement to be abusive.

Well I'd constitute telling someone that they should either subject themselves to a life time of complete celibacy or the creator of the universe will be angry with them to be psychological and emotional abuse.

Des Carter

strobe wrote: »

Well I'd constitute telling someone that they should either subject themselves to a life time of complete celibacy or the creator of the universe will be angry with them to be psychological and emotional abuse.

Not really I mean if you go by that logic then its abuse for me to tell someone that they should never eat salad or the creator of the earth will be angry with them.

This isnt abuse this is me telling someone my beliefs - it is only abuse if I create a law which forbides them to eat salad.

Ickle Magoo

Des Carter wrote: »

Not really I mean if you go by that logic then its abuse for me to tell someone that they should never eat salad or the creator of the earth will be angry with them.

This isnt abuse this is me telling someone my beliefs - it is only abuse if I create a law which forbides them to eat salad.

I think if anyone was so absurd as to suggest anyone who could only eat salads was a sinner and an abomination for eating salads, then you are getting closer to why this is an issue for many LGBT. And it's not god that would be angry with them, I can't imagine any god giving a fiddlers or he wouldn't have made them LGBT; it's the parents & peers who have been spoonfed the homophobia courtesy of their local church.

housetypeb

Eating shellfish is an abomination (lev. 11.10) which pisses off the creator, so why not salad.

robindch

On a related topic, here's a great video, but it's somewhat NSFW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEpQ8fFQ7Rk

philologos

strobe wrote: »

Well I'd constitute telling someone that they should either subject themselves to a life time of complete celibacy or the creator of the universe will be angry with them to be psychological and emotional abuse.

It's not any different for heterosexuals prior to marriage, just to point out. Again, I still wouldn't consider it abuse, the Christian lifestyle is one that you can either accept or reject. The Christian standard would inform me that it is best to wait until marriage, and it would inform me that any other context other than marriage for sexuality is inappropriate.

Links234

Jakkass wrote: »

It is wholly possible for one to love, while remaining in disagreement. Disagreement and hate being poles apart.

"love" in this context can be a pretty twisted concept

religious parents might think they're saving an LGBT child from sin in any number of ways, like bringing that child to some kooky religious psychiatrist to try and "cure" them, send them to crazy camps where they'll be made "pray out the gay", or punish them for having these feelings, or even simply try to beat it out of them as many parents have done to children. all this because they "love" their child and disagree that there's nothing wrong with being LGBT

the only way to stop such abuses happening is get to the source of hatred,

Zombrex

To be honest I think the religious doctrine is a little too convenient of a scape goat in regards to homosexuals feeling isolated and ashamed.

As Jakkass points out homosexual acts is considered one of the many things you shouldn't go in God eyes. We don't have teenagers commit suicide because they are told not to have sex until marriage.

Homosexuality as something to be disgusted by is raised to a different level by society. I have Christian acquaintances (I wouldn't count them as friends) who I know have pre-marital sex proclaim that homosexuality is against God's nature, with no sense of irony.

We shouldn't pretend that the level of disgust is simply a religious invention. Religion reflects society, those who wrote the Bible found homosexuality disgusting (and assumed their god would as well) and people still find it disgusting. And we tend to think what we view as disgusting is wrong. That is the issue here. It would be ridiculously naive to believe that if we just got rid of the religious teaching that homosexuality is a sin everyone would have no problem with it.

Equally though I think Christians need to be far more vocal in shouting down their fellow Christians who single out homosexuality as a sin of particular importance. It needs to be regularly pointed out to people like those I mentioned above that they are as sinful in God's eyes as homosexuals.

JimiTime

Links234 wrote: »

the only way to stop such abuses happening is get to the source of hatred,

What do you suggest?

Also, you just described the lengths SOME parents may go to in order to 'get the gay' out of their child. This shows a hatread for homosexuality rather than a hatread for a person.

markphillips

Jakkass wrote: »

It's not any different for heterosexuals prior to marriage, just to point out......the Christian lifestyle is one that you can either accept or reject.

Two points here I have to make.

1 - comparing having to wait until marriage to have sex with a lifetime of either being lonely and single or being shunned by your church and family is complete and utter rubbish. People being celibate is a choice and they know it is not permanent, as they can get married and enjoy themselves then. Being gay is not a choice and is permanent. Telling gay people to live a life of loneliness is VERY different to telling them to wait a few years to have sex. Once again, by the way, another "Christian" is going on as if being gay is all about sex. It isn't.

2 - "The Christian lifestyle is one that you can either accept or reject."

Wow. Really? Easy for you to say that, but what about the gay kid that goes to a Catholic school where they hear there is something wrong with them, live with religious parents who condemn gays, hear the Pope (or their pastor or whatever) saying they are broken, and suffer bullying because those around them have had those opinions entwined into their mind and see gay people as lesser than them.

It isn't that bad for a lot of people, but for many gay teens it is very tough. I was lucky enough to have an understanding family and some very good friends, but others are not so lucky.


The frustrating thing is the Bible barely mentions homosexuality. Jesus never mentions it in the Bible. It's pathetic that so many Christians today concentrate so much on something their Scripture makes so little reference to while the worst is full of poverty, illness, inequality and war. The gay-bashing Christians really let down the proper, decent ones who use their faith for good and not for hate.

The Bishop who wrote this article is right. I wish more Christians realised it.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

Equally though I think Christians need to be far more vocal in shouting down their fellow Christians who single out homosexuality as a sin of particular importance. It needs to be regularly pointed out to people like those I mentioned above that they are as sinful in God's eyes as homosexuals.

We are indeed all sinners, and fall short. However, God does distinguish people who are righteous and those who are not. He didn't, for example, look at Cane and Abel the same. He saw one as a righteous man, and the other as a murderous one. This whole idea that we are all equally wicked is an erroneous one.

The big issue with homosexuality, is that there is a push to approve of it. You will find that there is plenty of condemnation of fornication within the Christian world. People generally tend to accept that Christians say such things are bad. Equally, if something is seen as sinful, and thus destructive, Christians will condemn it. Homosexuality is by no means special when it comes to condemnation, it just happens to be a big topic of our time.

markphillips

JimiTime wrote: »

The big issue with homosexuality, is that there is a push to approve of it.

How dare gay people seek acceptance in their communities? The cheek. :rolleyes:

philologos

markphillips wrote: »

1 - comparing having to wait until marriage to have sex with a lifetime of either being lonely and single or being shunned by your church and family is complete and utter rubbish. People being celibate is a choice and they know it is not permanent, as they can get married and enjoy themselves then. Being gay is not a choice and is permanent. Telling gay people to live a life of loneliness is VERY different to telling them to wait a few years to have sex. Once again, by the way, another "Christian" is going on as if being gay is all about sex. It isn't.

Disagreement doesn't necessarily mean being shunned by ones church. I think you're jumping to conclusions.

I'm not going on as if it is all about sex, but the Judeo-Christian prohibition only concerns it, not being attracted to same sex.

markphillips wrote: »

2 - "The Christian lifestyle is one that you can either accept or reject."

Wow. Really? Easy for you to say that, but what about the gay kid that goes to a Catholic school where they hear there is something wrong with them, live with religious parents who condemn gays, hear the Pope (or their pastor or whatever) saying they are broken, and suffer bullying because those around them have had those opinions entwined into their mind and see gay people as lesser than them.

OK. You're jumping from the general to the particular. I.E - Christianity to Catholicism.

Again, you're making the illogical assumption that dissaproving of same-sex sexual relations is the same thing as "condemning". It just means, that well, you don't regard it as moral whereas other people do.

N.B - I am not compelled to agree with the Pope or any given church leader. I make my own cognitive opinion based on what is reasonable from Scripture.

markphillips wrote: »

The frustrating thing is the Bible barely mentions homosexuality. Jesus never mentions it in the Bible. It's pathetic that so many Christians today concentrate so much on something their Scripture makes so little reference to while the worst is full of poverty, illness, inequality and war. The gay-bashing Christians really let down the proper, decent ones who use their faith for good and not for hate.

Another illogical assumption, jumping from disagreement to hate. This is the problem with this argument. It doesn't remotely consider that people can still love yet disagree. As such it is a blinkered approach to the question.

Wicknight wrote:

Equally though I think Christians need to be far more vocal in shouting down their fellow Christians who single out homosexuality as a sin of particular importance. It needs to be regularly pointed out to people like those I mentioned above that they are as sinful in God's eyes as homosexuals.

Actually, I wholly agree here. We've all sinned and fallen short of God's glory. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider it, but certainly not in isolation. I find that the churches often focus too much on visible sin, while ignoring invisible sin.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

We are indeed all sinners, and fall short. However, God does distinguish people who are righteous and those who are not. He didn't, for example, look at Cane and Abel the same. He saw one as a righteous man, and the other as a murderous one. This whole idea that we are all equally wicked is an erroneous one.

That is an issue for God not us though, isn't it?

A person saying you are a much worse sinner than me is unchristian.
A person saying I'm so ashamed of your sin is unchristian.
A person who is living with their girlfriend, regularly having sex with her, turning around to a gay person and saying I'm so disgusted by your behavior is unchristian.

Judge not lest ye be judged and all that.

JimiTime wrote: »

The big issue with homosexuality, is that there is a push to approve of it.

That is only because all the other sins have already been approved. In general society no one thinks twice about a couple co-habituating. Laws are no longer enacted to prevent this, it is no longer seen as the end of civilization. None of my "Christian" friends follow that practice of waiting for marriage, and statistics show it is only a tiny tiny percentage of Christians who do.

What I would like to see is more Christians calling other Christians on the hypocrisy of this, saying worry about your own salvation before you start worrying about gay people.

JimiTime

markphillips wrote: »

Two points here I have to make.

1 - comparing having to wait until marriage to have sex with a lifetime of either being lonely and single or being shunned by your church and family is complete and utter rubbish. People being celibate is a choice and they know it is not permanent, as they can get married and enjoy themselves then. Being gay is not a choice and is permanent. Telling gay people to live a life of loneliness is VERY different to telling them to wait a few years to have sex. Once again, by the way, another "Christian" is going on as if being gay is all about sex. It isn't.

2 - "The Christian lifestyle is one that you can either accept or reject."

Wow. Really? Easy for you to say that, but what about the gay kid that goes to a Catholic school where they hear there is something wrong with them, live with religious parents who condemn gays, hear the Pope (or their pastor or whatever) saying they are broken, and suffer bullying because those around them have had those opinions entwined into their mind and see gay people as lesser than them.

It isn't that bad for a lot of people, but for many gay teens it is very tough. I was lucky enough to have an understanding family and some very good friends, but others are not so lucky.


The frustrating thing is the Bible barely mentions homosexuality. Jesus never mentions it in the Bible. It's pathetic that so many Christians today concentrate so much on something their Scripture makes so little reference to while the worst is full of poverty, illness, inequality and war. The gay-bashing Christians really let down the proper, decent ones who use their faith for good and not for hate.

The Bishop who wrote this article is right. I wish more Christians realised it.

You could give some emotive anecdotes about adulterty too, but at the end of the day, if we trust God, then we trust that what he condemns as sinful is sinful. What you wish to do with your desires is up to you, but a Christian should never play patsy to popular opinion. God condemns many behaviours, some are more prone to it than others. We all struggle with sin, but most will not try push the opinion that our sin is actually ok. That is the big issue in the Homosexuality/Christian debate.

JimiTime

markphillips wrote: »

How dare gay people seek acceptance in their communities? The cheek. :rolleyes:

Communities can do what they like, the issue here is Christians and the seeking of them to approve of homosexuality.

markphillips

Jakkass wrote: »

Disagreement doesn't necessarily mean being shunned by ones church. I think you're jumping to conclusions.

Being gay means being shunned by ones Church for many, and at least being condemned by the Church hierarchy in the case of more institutional churches.

Jakkass wrote: »

OK. You're jumping from the general to the particular. I.E - Christianity to Catholicism.

I come from an Irish background, so my view of Christianity has been influenced alot by the Catholic Church. However, I have spent time in America and many Christians there were far more judgmental of gay people than any Catholics I have ever met.

Jakkass wrote: »

Again, you're making the illogical assumption that dissaproving of same-sex sexual relations is the same thing as "condemning". It just means, that well, you don't regard it as moral whereas other people do.

You are entitled to your own moral code (although, if you were gay, I'm sure you would have a different one). The problem we are discussing here is not that some people don't like gays or that some Christians view it as immoral. The problem here is that their opinions have an overbearing impact on the lives of young gay people through their religious views being echoed through a kids school life, church life and even home life. I know there will always be people that think being gay is wrong, but it is the way they feel a need to shout it from the roof-tops the whole time and enforce their ideology through the education and legal system that is the problem here, not their opinions.

Jakkass wrote: »

N.B - I am not compelled to agree with the Pope or any given church leader. I make my own cognitive opinion based on what is reasonable from Scripture.

Fair enough.

Jakkass wrote: »

Another illogical assumption, jumping from disagreement to hate. This is the problem with this argument. It doesn't remotely consider that people can still love yet disagree. As such it is a blinkered approach to the question.

I think you are the one defying logic here, to be honest. How are you "disagreeing" with people being gay, exactly? Did they ask your opinion? Is it a choice? Can you disagree with somebody liking the colour red too, if your favourite colour is blue? I'm not saying you have to hang out with gay people, get to know them or even like them. However, when Christians legislate against, discriminate against and single out gay people their whole lives I think it crosses a line.

BTW I do think you are entitled to your religious beliefs. I just think you should realise how damaging it can be to young gay people as they grow up when Christianity surrounds them with negative messages about them and who they are.

markphillips

JimiTime wrote: »

Communities can do what they like, the issue here is Christians and the seeking of them to approve of homosexuality.

I mustn't have been around when all us gays started banging down the Church doors demanding you accept us.

Most people don't care what you think of them. They just don't want you legislating against them, hating on them, teaching that they are broken etc. etc.

This is about kids killing themselves because they are rejected, or feel rejected, by their communities due to their sexuality. You are entitled to your opinions and beliefs, but the point of this article seems to be that you should also be aware of how damaging they can be when used in the wrong way.

robindch

JimiTime wrote: »

the issue here is Christians and the seeking of them to approve of homosexuality.

Nobody is trying to get christians to "approve of homosexuality".

What people are trying to do is to get those christians who think it's ok to hate gay men and women in public to put a sock in it.

Zombrex

robindch wrote: »

Nobody is trying to get christians to "approve of homosexuality".

What people are trying to do is to get those christians who think it's ok to hate gay men and women in public to put a sock in it.

I think that is the key point.

It is not necessary for Christianity to change its doctrine. Christianity already has a judge not lest ye be judged doctrine, it already has a don't be a hypocrite doctrine. The vast vast vast majority of people claiming to be Christians ignore Christian doctrine every day, yet criticize and single out homosexuals as worthy of particular scorn or disgust.

All Christians looking to combat this have to do is make these points louder than the God hates fags nonsense the is ingrained in current society.

axer

JimiTime wrote: »

Communities can do what they like, the issue here is Christians and the seeking of them to approve of homosexuality.

No the issue is christians spreading hate to their children. When you tell a child that homosexuality is wrong and that homosexuals (who live as homosexuals) are sinners/broken you are spreading hate.

Truley

I agree with Wiknight on this one, I don't think homophobia can be easily attributed to religion alone. Humans have always had a deep seated fear/dislike of what is any way different or unusual. Yes, people tend to cling to religious teachings to legitimise their fears, but religious teaching is a reflection of the society and the person, not so much the other way around.

Just about every civilisation in history, regardless of religion or even lack of it, has demonstrated a degree of aversion to homosexuality. I think this is because it's extremely difficult to understand when another person's sexual desires deviate so much from your own. The same as a person with a really unusual fetish, not that I'm saying it's alright of course. It's a common human trait to label that what we don't understand as 'wrong.' (This I think answers the root of hatred question also.)

And before anyone says it, I'm not equating homosexuality to a fetish. Just the way people find it so hard to understand. Especially since sex, in general, has always been a 'sensitive' topic for most humans.

ColmDawson

Jakkass wrote: »

It's not any different for heterosexuals prior to marriage, just to point out.

It is very different. Heterosexuals are told that sex is the ultimate physical fulfilment of their love, as intended by god. They'll most likely be married by their thirties.
Homosexuals are told that they must deny themselves that fulfilment for their entire lives.

Again, I still wouldn't consider it abuse, the Christian lifestyle is one that you can either accept or reject.

Really? Someone who believes that the Christian god exists and that the Bible is true can just decide to accept or reject the lifestyle? I imagine if a believer were to decide to reject the Christian lifestyle it would be a massively stressful thing to live in 'sin' and think you were going to be punished for it after death. Along the lines of the trauma Joyce's Stephen Dedalus goes through in A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.

The Christian standard would inform me that it is best to wait until marriage, and it would inform me that any other context other than marriage for sexuality is inappropriate.

That's great, you'll have a few more years of celibacy and then you can express your love with your wife and you'll have the satisfaction of knowing you've pleased god or whatever.
For a gay person, it's not a matter of abstaining for a bit before arriving at a satisfying and holy intimate relationship. It's a lifetime of denying an animal urge, a key dimension of one's personality and something beautiful and — let's not forget — rather fun.

robindch

Truley wrote: »

I don't think homophobia can be easily attributed to religion alone.

Gay men, and to a much lesser extent, gay women, frighten many people because their responses are incomprehensible and appear to ignore some of the most primal urges that human beings have. Religion feeds upon this fear, turns it into hatred, and then provides it with an pious legitimacy to help neutralize any guilt that a religious person might feel for holding such antisocial views.

In this sense, the native homophobia that many feel, but would generally avoid expressing, is openly used by religion to render itself more attractive.

JimiTime

robindch wrote: »

Nobody is trying to get christians to "approve of homosexuality".

What people are trying to do is to get those christians who think it's ok to hate gay men and women in public to put a sock in it.

Condemn the sin and embrace the sinner is what Jesus' example was. THAT is the Christian way. If people are preaching to hate others, its not Christian.

JimiTime

axer wrote: »

No the issue is christians spreading hate to their children. When you tell a child that homosexuality is wrong and that homosexuals (who live as homosexuals) are sinners/broken you are spreading hate.

That is what I took this debate to mean tbh. A poster has already said that they are not looking for Christians to change their view etc though. What you have posted is the more common theme I see though. Basically, saying homosexuality is wrong is spreading hate.

JimiTime

markphillips wrote: »

I mustn't have been around when all us gays started banging down the Church doors demanding you accept us.

Most people don't care what you think of them. They just don't want you legislating against them, hating on them, teaching that they are broken etc. etc.

This is about kids killing themselves because they are rejected, or feel rejected, by their communities due to their sexuality. You are entitled to your opinions and beliefs, but the point of this article seems to be that you should also be aware of how damaging they can be when used in the wrong way.

Please see this post:

axer wrote: »

No the issue is christians spreading hate to their children. When you tell a child that homosexuality is wrong and that homosexuals (who live as homosexuals) are sinners/broken you are spreading hate.

That is a very common theme, and while you may not be personally knocking down the church doors, there is a very real agenda to silence Christian views on the matter of homosexual behaviour being sinful.

robindch

JimiTime wrote: »

Condemn the sin and embrace the sinner is what Jesus' example was. THAT is the Christian way. If people are preaching to hate others, its not Christian.

It's not only preaching hate, it's also expressing it -- as in telling people "I love you, although you are clearly suffering from an 'intrinsic moral disorder'".

How would you feel if I told you over dinner with friends some evening that I loved you as a person, even though you were suffering from an intrinsic moral disorder?

Would you feel that this showed that I respected you as a person?

markphillips

JimiTime wrote: »

That is a very common theme, and while you may not be personally knocking down the church doors, there is a very real agenda to silence Christian views on the matter of homosexual behaviour being sinful.

Telling a child homosexuality is wrong is spreading hate. Why? Because, if your child happens to be a member of the 1 in 10 (or whatever it is) human beings on this planet that are not straight, they will know that their own parents do not understand or accept them as who they are.

Once again, for the millionth time, you can have your views - regardless of how baseless they may be - but please just be aware of the damage they can do when you feel the need to constantly impose them and attempt to spread them.

And all this "love the sinner, not the sin" is patronising rubbish. There is nothing wrong with being gay. It is not an illness. It cannot be "fixed". Homosexuality occurs across the world in a minority of the population. Heck, there is even homosexuality in the animal kingdom! All reputable, respected and peer-reviewed psychiatric and psychology associations agree homosexuality is not a choice or illness.

So yeah, you can go by a line or two in the Bible if you want, you are entitled to. But constantly harping on about it being a "sin" to people that do not share your beliefs creates a damaging environment for young gay people that are living in an environment that teaches them they are broken when, in fact, they are not.

JimiTime

robindch wrote: »

It's not only preaching hate, it's also expressing it -- as in telling people "I love you, although you are clearly suffering from an 'intrinsic moral disorder'".

How would you feel if I told you over dinner with friends some evening that I loved you as a person, even though you were suffering from an intrinsic moral disorder?

Would you feel that this showed that I respected you as a person?

It would show that you have very little tact. If you were a brother in Christ though, then it is your duty to turn me away from wilful sin, in private first.

JimiTime

markphillips wrote: »

Telling a child homosexuality is wrong is spreading hate. Why? Because, if your child happens to be a member of the 1 in 10 (or whatever it is) human beings on this planet that are not straight, they will know that their own parents do not understand or accept them as who they are.

Ahh, so you are looking for Christians to approve.

markphillips

JimiTime wrote: »

Ahh, so you are looking for Christians to approve.

Congratulations on completely ignoring every point made.

There is a difference between "not approving" of something and actively railing against it at every given opportunity.

There is obviously no point in debating with you.

JimiTime

markphillips wrote: »

Congratulations on completely ignoring every point made.

I ignored every point irrelevant to what I'm discussing.

There is obviously no point in debating with you.

Thats your perogative.

fatmammycat

JimiTime wrote: »

Ahh, so you are looking for Christians to approve.

He is clearly looking for no such thing. Frankly he, like a lot of people, couldn't give a crap what Christians and their woo based logic think. What he said was using terminology designed to make a body of people feel inferior was wrong and hate filled and woo botherers ought to rein that kind of tripe in. And if they were decent human beings instead of deity worshippers they might see that for themselves. But carry on ignoring his point and playing the oppressed card. That one never gets old.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

JimiTime

fatmammycat wrote: »

He is clearly looking for no such thing. Frankly he, like a lot of people, couldn't give a crap what Christians and their woo based logic think. What he said was using terminology designed to make a body of people feel inferior was wrong and hate filled and woo botherers ought to rein that kind of tripe in. And if they were decent human beings instead of deity worshippers they might see that for themselves. But carry on ignoring his point and playing the oppressed card. That one never gets old.

FWIW, no one said anything about oppression.

axer

JimiTime wrote: »

That is a very common theme, and while you may not be personally knocking down the church doors, there is a very real agenda to silence Christian views on the matter of homosexual behaviour being sinful.

You seemed to have missed the "and" in my post.

Zombrex

markphillips wrote: »

Telling a child homosexuality is wrong is spreading hate. Why? Because, if your child happens to be a member of the 1 in 10 (or whatever it is) human beings on this planet that are not straight, they will know that their own parents do not understand or accept them as who they are.

Their parents don't accept them as who they are. The issue is what does that mean. Does it mean the parents kick the son out of the house in anger or does it mean the parents go "Well we ain't model Christians either, it is between you and God"

I have to side with Jimi on this one, focusing on merely silencing Christians is unfair on Christians and also largely missing the point.

A far better exercise would be Christians teaching other "Christians" that it is wrong to judge and that they are not in a position to do this. A lot of Christians fall short of the ideals of Christianity, singling out homosexuals is improper.

As has been said religion is used to justify oppression of homosexuals.

Once you remove this justification, by showing that Christians if they are to be true to their religion, are not in a position to judge, that it is a matter for the person and God, you remove a significant justification.

You won't do that by merely saying Oh Christianity hates homosexual people as this is, to be blunt, inaccurate.

fatmammycat

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Your concern is noted. I'm not filled with hate at all. I just have no respect for the 'hate the sin not the sinner' brigade or their deity based claptrap. But I have enough respect for them to contain this to an atheist forum.

Des Carter

axer wrote: »

No the issue is christians spreading hate to their children. When you tell a child that homosexuality is wrong and that homosexuals (who live as homosexuals) are sinners/broken you are spreading hate.

Is it not a bit naive to think that christianity is the only reason why homophobia exists?

Surely it would still exist regardless Im sure there are people who arent christian yet still look down on LGBDs and teach their children this without it having anything to do with religion. For example racism is widespread and this has nothing to do with the church and Im assuming its the same for homophobia.

Zombrex

Des Carter wrote: »

Is it not a bit naive to think that christianity is the only reason why homophobia exists?

I think it is also naive to think that this alone causes hate.

I think it can certainly cause guilt, but so does telling your kids that having pre-marital sex is wrong. We don't have lots of kids killing themselves because they had sex.

Having said that I also think it would be ridiculous naive to think that merely informing kids of Christian teaching is what most "Christian" parents do.

axer

Des Carter wrote: »

Is it not a bit naive to think that christianity is the only reason why homophobia exists?

I don't think christianity is the only reason why homophobia exists? Can you point out where I did?

I specifically pointed to one religious group (as the discussion had turned to christianity) who preach that homosexual behaviour is very wrong and that those who engage in it are somewhat bad people. Telling kids that is telling them to distrust or even hate homosexuals. And what happens if the child that is told that homosexuals are bad people turns out to be gay - how much damage could that do?

Des Carter

Wicknight wrote: »

IHaving said that I also think it would be ridiculous naive to think that merely informing kids of Christian teaching is what most "Christian" parents do.

It depends on what you mean by "Christian" parents because I think most christian parents in modern Ireland dont teach their kids the exact christian teachings but only teach the parts they want/believe.

Des Carter

axer wrote: »

I don't think christianity is the only reason why homophobia exists? Can you point out where I did?

I specifically pointed to one religious group (as the discussion had turned to christianity) who preach that homosexual behaviour is very wrong and that those who engage in it are somewhat bad people. Telling kids that is telling them to distrust or even hate homosexuals. And what happens if the child that is told that homosexuals are bad people turns out to be gay - how much damage could that do?

Although i quoted you I did not direct it at you personally, it was more an overall opinion.