destroyed slury tanker

mayo_lad

i was just on done deal there and i saw this add http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/machinery/1628147

I've never seen a tanker to collapsed like that in my life consideration the walls of it would be 5mm thick it's hard to figure out how it got so mangled

whelan1

pretty impressive

vanderbadger

not a great advert for conor tankers

mayo_lad

vanderbadger wrote: »

not a great advert for conor tankers

no not a great add for them at all I'm wondering was it the rust that caused it to do that to it .

still tho it looks good value just for the pump even

also to it's testament it is an old tanker (i'm guessing by the size of the tank )

Tora Bora

mayo_lad wrote: »

i was just on done deal there and i saw this add http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/machinery/1628147

I've never seen a tanker to collapsed like that in my life consideration the walls of it would be 5mm thick it's hard to figure out how it got so mangled

Remember the science lab test going to school, to prove the effect of atmospheric pressure on a metal container like a metal jerry can.

1. Fill metal can about one third with water, and bring to the boil with cork off.
2. Allow steam to pour out from the top for a few minutes. This forces all the air between the top level of the water and the top of the container out of the container.
3. Remove from the burner, srew on the cork and allow to cool down.
4. The steam trapped in the container cools down, and returns to its original state ........ water. Drops down to the water below.
5. Now in place of the steam, we have a vacuum :eek: because the air that was their before we boiled the water was excpelled by the rising steam during the boiling process.

6. Now sit back for a couple of hours and the metal jerry container completely collapses inwards, because the atmospheric pressure outside, is greater than that inside. Inside being zero and outside being over 1000 hPa.

Now take a slurry tank. Plonker forgets to open the valve at suction hose connection point.
Turns on vacuum pump, in fill mode.
Immediately all the air inside is sucked from the tank, and because the valve at suction hose is closed, the slurry cannot rush in to replace the displaced air.

Result ............ one vaccy tank, with a vacuum inside. 1000 hPa of atmospheric pressure on the outside. Doesn't take long for the tank to start collapsing:D

enda1

Tora Bora wrote: »

Remember the science lab test going to school, to prove the effect of atmospheric pressure on a metal container like a metal jerry can.

1. Fill metal can about one third with water, and bring to the boil with cork off.
2. Allow steam to pour out from the top for a few minutes. This forces all the air between the top level of the water and the top of the container out of the container.
3. Remove from the burner, srew on the cork and allow to cool down.
4. The steam trapped in the container cools down, and returns to its original state ........ water. Drops down to the water below.
5. Now in place of the steam, we have a vacuum :eek: because the air that was their before we boiled the water was excpelled by the rising steam during the boiling process.

6. Now sit back for a couple of hours and the metal jerry container completely collapses inwards, because the atmospheric pressure outside, is greater than that inside. Inside being zero and outside being over 1000 hPa.

Now take a slurry tank. Plonker forgets to open the valve at suction hose connection point.
Turns on vacuum pump, in fill mode.
Immediately all the air inside is sucked from the tank, and because the valve at suction hose is closed, the slurry cannot rush in to replace the displaced air.

Result ............ one vaccy tank, with a vacuum inside. 1000 hPa of atmospheric pressure on the outside. Doesn't take long for the tank to start collapsing:D

The pump wouldn't be anywhere near powerful enough to create the pressure difference necessary for the tank to be crushed.

Tora Bora

enda1 wrote: »

The pump wouldn't be anywhere near powerful enough to create the pressure difference necessary for the tank to be crushed.

Yes it would! If you don't believe me, try it:eek:

johngalway

I don't know about atmospheric pressures so I won't doubt that theory. As an alternative would something have fell on it off a crane say, or it may have taken a tumble.

mayo_lad

Tora Bora wrote: »

Remember the science lab test going to school, to prove the effect of atmospheric pressure on a metal container like a metal jerry can.

1. Fill metal can about one third with water, and bring to the boil with cork off.
2. Allow steam to pour out from the top for a few minutes. This forces all the air between the top level of the water and the top of the container out of the container.
3. Remove from the burner, srew on the cork and allow to cool down.
4. The steam trapped in the container cools down, and returns to its original state ........ water. Drops down to the water below.
5. Now in place of the steam, we have a vacuum :eek: because the air that was their before we boiled the water was excpelled by the rising steam during the boiling process.

6. Now sit back for a couple of hours and the metal jerry container completely collapses inwards, because the atmospheric pressure outside, is greater than that inside. Inside being zero and outside being over 1000 hPa.

Now take a slurry tank. Plonker forgets to open the valve at suction hose connection point.
Turns on vacuum pump, in fill mode.
Immediately all the air inside is sucked from the tank, and because the valve at suction hose is closed, the slurry cannot rush in to replace the displaced air.

Result ............ one vaccy tank, with a vacuum inside. 1000 hPa of atmospheric pressure on the outside. Doesn't take long for the tank to start collapsing:D

not a chance your comparing 1mm light tin to 5mm steal there is no chance that a vacuum pump could do that much damage unless the steal was already very week . also it would be imposable to create such a high pressure difference in side your tank in school you might have created a small vacuum around 100/200 hPa at the maxim

Tipp Man

Have seen several tanks around us that it has happened to

2 reason which are both really the same reason

1: somebody forgot to open the trap to allow it to suck, alternatively it could have been opened but the handle on these traps do become loose over time and it may have closed itself unbeknowns to the operator. It is surprisingly easy for this to happen and to avoid the handle should really be held up with twine, wire etc whilst sucking

2: the pipe was placed in the tank at such an angle that the top of the pipe stuck to the ground, covering the entire pipe opening and couldn't suck any slurry. Again fairly common which is why you should always have your pipe cut in a V shape so that it cannot stick to the bottom

So basically the pump sucked in the tank

vanderbadger

is there not a kinda pressure release valve on the pumps or something to prevent that kinda thing

Tipp Man

vanderbadger wrote: »

is there not a kinda pressure release valve on the pumps or something to prevent that kinda thing

not on the older tanks which this one is, incidence like this probably lead to the introduction of such valves

snowman707

Tipp Man wrote: »

not on the older tanks which this one is, incidence like this probably lead to the introduction of such valves

is it not there on the side of the pump?

conor are noted for their axles breaking especially on the newer larger tanks, and not very accommodating with good will gestures either, if it's one day outa warranty tough s***

vanderbadger

snowman707 wrote: »

is it not there on the side of the pump?

conor are noted for their axles breaking especially on the newer larger tanks, and not very accommodating with good will gestures either, if it's one day outa warranty tough s***

what do you make of their stuff, ahve heard their wrappers are good but wouldnt be gone on tankers, have seen the 1600 gallon with big wheels and she looks very short and very high, have heard it said they are tough to pull and not balanced right? other lads seem to swear by them

pakalasa

Probably a combination of a design flaw and rust internally. The tank should be, and I'd imagine all modern ones are, designed to handle the max atmospheric pressure of 1 atmosphere vacuum (1 Bar or 14.7 PSI). So in effect, the pump could pull the full vacuum on it and not do damage.

That's why galvanised tanks are a good idea. Ordinary tanks could be rusting like hell internally and you'd never know.

JohnBoy

Or it could have gotten a knock from something.

Once there's any bit of a dent it's much easier for the tank to collapse as it derives a lot of it's strength from being a perfect circle.

maidhc

We have a conor topper and I could talk about the quality of steel and paintwork, but I wont.

whelan1

maybe this is a silly question but if the tanker was going to collapse would the perspex bubble level thingy not pop out and the air would escape ?

iano93

Just on storing tanks 4 the winter as were finished with ours now...I presume both the doors should be closed ie. the filling door and the back hydraulic one to keep the amount of oxygen gettin in to a minimum? And one more thing do any of you rinse your tanks out with diesel when ur finished with them?

royaler83

enda1 wrote: »

The pump wouldn't be anywhere near powerful enough to create the pressure difference necessary for the tank to be crushed.

I can assure you this can happen. My brother was sucking water from a river when he was young, the pipe stuck to the bottom, he never noticed and it caved in.

There was no pressure valve like there is now.

Oh and it was a Ruscon in fairly good condition.

whelan1

iano93 wrote: »

Just on storing tanks 4 the winter as were finished with ours now...I presume both the doors should be closed ie. the filling door and the back hydraulic one to keep the amount of oxygen gettin in to a minimum? And one more thing do any of you rinse your tanks out with diesel when ur finished with them?

would you not leave the doors open to stop the build up of gas in the tanker?

royaler83

iano93 wrote: »

Just on storing tanks 4 the winter as were finished with ours now...I presume both the doors should be closed ie. the filling door and the back hydraulic one to keep the amount of oxygen gettin in to a minimum? And one more thing do any of you rinse your tanks out with diesel when ur finished with them?

Diesels too dear, waste of money

Your cows must produce diesel and not milk

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

enda1 wrote: »

The pump wouldn't be anywhere near powerful enough to create the pressure difference necessary for the tank to be crushed.

a common misconception! those pumps are incredibly powerful. this pump has been reconditioned, combined with an old tank, if the door was closed or the pipe got blocked, it could very easily happen.

blue5000

Why can't someone fone yer man and ask him how it happened? I'v heard of milk tanker lorry SS tank collapsing when it was being sterilised with steam and somebody splashed it with cold water from a hose.

Tora Bora

Ruben Quick Porter wrote: »

a common misconception! those pumps are incredibly powerful. this pump has been reconditioned, combined with an old tank, if the door was closed or the pipe got blocked, it could very easily happen.

Absolutely. Nature hates a vacuum. That pump, will cause significant pressure differential of there is nothing being sucked into the tank to replace the exiting air. There is only one result. Obviously a heavy tank in good condition will survive longer, but will implode eventually. On Conor tanks, I have a very old one. 25 years to be exact. Looks on its last leg, but still going. Big scelps of rusty metal, come out of it and lodge in the spout. I have a series of 10mm holes drilled around the circumference of the suction hose about 8 inches up from the end. Just in case the hose sticks solid to the floor of the tank and makes a pancake of my tank.

pakalasa

It's physically impossible to create a pressure greater than minus 14 psi in the tank. This is full vacuum which isnt a lot of pressure, when you think about it. There's twice that in your car tyres.
The tank should be able to hold this, even if every bit of air is sucked out of it. There's probably a vacuum safty valve too which allows air to rush in if the vacuum gets too low. But even if this doesnt work, the tank should still be safe.

I've worked on the building of pressure vessells before. To test them water is pumped into the tanks to a greater pressure than they are expected to reach in working life. Water is safe, because if the tank should fail, the water will just spray out, whereas air will cause an explosion. Under law, all pressure vessells have to be tested like this, under the Pressure Equipment Dircetive (PED). I cant say for certain, but I imagine all slurry tankers are tested like this.

For the vacuum side of things, I'm not sure. But since it's only vacuum we're talking about, I'd imagine they are tested to somthing like 90% vacuum (minus 12 psi or so).

denis086

ive seen a few star tanks like this never any other make they implode and break right where the weld is around the middle and theres never any slurry in them so its definitely the vacuum that does it. The 1 i saw in the flesh the relief valve was bet and seized anyway so it wasnt offering any help anyway and then combine that with a couple of decades of rust, forget 5mm try 3mm id say :rolleyes:
They have anti implosion rings fitted in new tanks now i think to prevent it plus theres 2 relief valves on most now.
We found cutting the v in the pipe just made the pipe curl in and the end just narrowed up so we just bolt apiece of angle iron on now a thick piece mind so it doesnt rot away too fast

kay 9

So Conor stuff is ****e? We have a major topper and the steel quality is a disaster, I'll have to get a whole new top-plate cut out for it and put it in. The mainframe is sound but the rest:rolleyes: Flakes away like pastry

kfk

I would have thought that the vacuum hose between the pump and tank would collapse long before the tank!

bbam

pakalasa wrote: »

It's physically impossible to create a pressure greater than minus 14 psi in the tank

I've worked on lots of vacuum systems where much greater vacuum levels were acheived and sustained.. this type of pump would only be considered to produce "rough" vacuum, they're trick is to combine this rough vacuum while maintaining a decent volume throughput..

A few things that would add to the collapse..
Condition of the tank, internal rust would be a major factor non-uniform weakening of the structure.
Vacuum shock, if the vacuum fluctuated suddenly it would be a problem and weaken the tank over time..
The structure is strong beacuse of its shape, I've often seen damaged slurry tanks which would greatly weaken their potential strength....
Welding on of the pipe brackets would be a particular worry, I've seen this done too.. As I've seen lifting eyes welded onto the top of the tank for loading onto trailers/trucks..

Must be a scary enough sight to actually see it happen..

iano93

whelan1 wrote: »

would you not leave the doors open to stop the build up of gas in the tanker?

1. Sorry i meant to say rinse the pump out with one litre diesel?
2. Right what gases would build up?
3. I thought by leaving them closed then no oxygen can get in so rusting is kept to a min?

maidhc

iano93 wrote: »

1. Sorry i meant to say rinse the pump out with one litre diesel?
2. Right what gases would build up?
3. I thought by leaving them closed then no oxygen can get in so rusting is kept to a min?

Just get a galvanised tanker. Ours is 16 years old so far and in excellent nick.

reilig

I've seen one collapse where the owner took apart the pump to recondition it himself and when putting it back together he put something in backwards.

Tora Bora

reilig wrote: »

I've seen one collapse where the owner took apart the pump to recondition it himself and when putting it back together he put something in backwards.

He must have been on one of those dodgy Fas courses, and have got a dodgy certificate to prove it.:o

emaherx

reilig wrote: »

I've seen one collapse where the owner took apart the pump to recondition it himself and when putting it back together he put something in backwards.

Don't think there is much chance of putting anything in backwards in these pumps, they are very simple. I think more likely same senario as the one this thread is about. Reconditioned pump plus old thank which as lost its structual integrity due to rust and or a large dent due to an impact.

snowman707

emaherx wrote: »

Don't think there is much chance of putting anything in backwards in these pumps, they are very simple. I think more likely same senario as the one this thread is about. Reconditioned pump plus old thank which as lost its structual integrity due to rust and or a large dent due to an impact.

+1

plus the fact that some of the older tanks were badly designed as regards shape.

John_F

i dont think there was such a thing as a vacum relief valve on old tanks, there is a difference between vaccum and pressure, and the pressure valve was always on the pump if i recall correctly

Only one way to settle the debate out lads and lassies, anyone wish to experiment ?? :P

ps put it up on youtube :pac:

reilig

emaherx wrote: »

Don't think there is much chance of putting anything in backwards in these pumps, they are very simple. I think more likely same senario as the one this thread is about. Reconditioned pump plus old thank which as lost its structual integrity due to rust and or a large dent due to an impact.

On some of the larger tanks and pumps there is. The one that I referred to was a large articulated 4000 gallon tank used for moving pig slurry long distances with a lorry and it had a different set up to the normal tractor slurry tankers. It was galvanised inside and out too.

knotknowbody

emaherx wrote: »

Don't think there is much chance of putting anything in backwards in these pumps, they are very simple. I think more likely same senario as the one this thread is about. Reconditioned pump plus old thank which as lost its structual integrity due to rust and or a large dent due to an impact.

He possibly put the lever for switching from filling to spreading in incorrectly, by doing this the pump could end up pumping the opposite way to what it used to with the lever in the same position, still don't see how it would lead to the tank collapsing but you never know.

hoodrats

knotknowbody wrote: »

He possibly put the lever for switching from filling to spreading in incorrectly, by doing this the pump could end up pumping the opposite way to what it used to with the lever in the same position, still don't see how it would lead to the tank collapsing but you never know.

you cant put the lever in backwards because there is a cast steel valve that opens onto either the fill or pump outlets in the casing. i rebuilt our own battoni pump a few years ago and it is a really simple thing to dismantle and rebuild so putting it back together wrong is unlikely. as emaherk said the thing has probally rusted away inside and the wall has weakened and collapsed with the suction .

blue5000

Am I mad or what; its oxygen that causes rust.

Now that slurry season is over has anyone thought of putting a lit candle in their tank and closing the door/valves. The candle would burn up all the oxygen in the tank, preventing the inside of the tank from rusting. There wouldn't want to be ANY METHANE:mad: or diesel in there though.

pakalasa

Whatever about overpressurizing them when in vacuum, you dont want to overpressureize then with air. I takled to a guy that inspects pressure vessells under the 'Pressure Equipment Directive' , he came across a few cases where vessels had exploded from over pressure. One case where one went out through the roof of a factory and ended up 200 metres down the road.
Those pressure relief vales are usually sealed with a wire and lead seal. Once you break that seal, the manufacturer no longer has responsiblity.
So be carefull with any alterations you might think about making!

I dont have a slurry tanker, anyone mind checking if theirs has a CE plate. It should have by law. Interested to see what it says on it. It should have the max working pressures and all that.

knotknowbody

hoodrats wrote: »

you cant put the lever in backwards because there is a cast steel valve that opens onto either the fill or pump outlets in the casing. i rebuilt our own battoni pump a few years ago and it is a really simple thing to dismantle and rebuild so putting it back together wrong is unlikely. as emaherk said the thing has probally rusted away inside and the wall has weakened and collapsed with the suction .

Yeah I agree it was almost certainly rust inside that caused it, but it is possible to but the cast steel valve back in the wrong way, the last time I rebuilt my own pump about two years ago I done this, the result was that I had to push the lever to the right to fill while before the rebuild I would push it to the left to fill, so it was the opposite to before for both filling and emptying, obviously most people would cop on to what was happening fairly quick but there's always one. Don't know what make my pump is it looks the same as the one in the picture, so don't know if you could do this with other ones

Ford4000

Very simple this, the pump sucked in the tank, ive seen this lots of times, ive seen galvanised tanks sucked in etc etc, if the valve is closed it will suck itself in...there is no douubt or argument about this, steel nowadays is ****e basically compared to 20 yrs ago, just as likely to suck a new one in as an old rusty one, most even new tanks have no protection against this !

reilig

Ford4000 wrote: »

Very simple this, the pump sucked in the tank, ive seen this lots of times, ive seen galvanised tanks sucked in etc etc, if the valve is closed it will suck itself in...there is no douubt or argument about this, steel nowadays is ****e basically compared to 20 yrs ago, just as likely to suck a new one in as an old rusty one, most even new tanks have no protection against this !

Most new tankers have anti-compaction rings in them. People should be weary of cheaper new tankers as they do not have them. You pay for what you get. Steel is of poorer quality than it was 20 years ago, but also machinery manufacturers are using thinner steel than they used to.

Ford4000

reilig wrote: »

Most new tankers have anti-compaction rings in them. People should be weary of cheaper new tankers as they do not have them. You pay for what you get. Steel is of poorer quality than it was 20 years ago, but also machinery manufacturers are using thinner steel than they used to.

Thats right, as thin and as cheap a steel as they can get away with, newer ifor williams trailers are testament to this.......v poor my old blue top one has ten times more cattle moveed than me neighbours fancy 1yr old one and his is cracking in places and getting very delapitated looking very quick !

pakalasa

Anyone with a CE plate on their tanker?

maidhc

pakalasa wrote: »

Anyone with a CE plate on their tanker?

Yep. 1995 Rossmore.

reilig

Mine too. 1997. Major.

Juniorhurler

I can as of this evening definitively tell you all how a tanker sucks in unfortunately.

Had the tanker open last year cleaning it and the auld man commented how weak the steel looked from rust. Especially around where it was welded down to the chassis for some reason. This was a galvanised ipsa tanker btw that we had bought second hand in 1994. I was sucking up a tank of water to throw into the slats for agitating and bang, in she went.

I had the tank backed into a deep spot in the river and was sucking through the splash plate valve. The plate in here had broke off from the hydraulic ram and hadn't opened. It took about 3 seconds sucking before she caved in. This is how it happens.

I may go out now at the weekend and replace her. I would like another galvanised one. I want 1600-2000 gallon. Any recommendations for a tanker in this size.
Also what is an ipsa pump in good order worth? Not sure what litre.

vanderbadger

Juniorhurler wrote: »

I can as of this evening definitively tell you all how a tanker sucks in unfortunately.

Had the tanker open last year cleaning it and the auld man commented how weak the steel looked from rust. Especially around where it was welded down to the chassis for some reason. This was a galvanised ipsa tanker btw that we had bought second hand in 1994. I was sucking up a tank of water to throw into the slats for agitating and bang, in she went.

I had the tank backed into a deep spot in the river and was sucking through the splash plate valve. The plate in here had broke off from the hydraulic ram and hadn't opened. It took about 3 seconds sucking before she caved in. This is how it happens.

I may go out now at the weekend and replace her. I would like another galvanised one. I want 1600-2000 gallon. Any recommendations for a tanker in this size.
Also what is an ipsa pump in good order worth? Not sure what litre.

have an abbey tanker, happy with it, easy pull. its 1600 gallon, friend has similar size conor tanker, his is much shorter and higher, he reckons his tanker is harder to pull and not as well balanced