United Ireland

deise go deo

There have been a few threads lately where this has been discussed,

So what do you think of it, What would you like to see it be, how would you like it to be structured etc.

When do you think it will come about and How(if ever)

If you dont think it will happen then Why and why shouldent it happen?

What compromises do you think would need to be made with Unionists if it dose happen?




Personally I think it will happen in the Next 50 years and I hope it dose as NI as a state cannot exist without British money being put into it and as long as it dose exist sectarian violence will never be far away.
I also believe that it would be a great opportunity to reform and restructure the southern state, both economically and politically.

catbear

Of course there could be a united Ireland. Just ditch the Euro and rejoin GB and Ireland would be united. Simple.

Liam Byrne

Nothing to do with me. We voted to let Northern Ireland decide for itself.

deise go deo

catbear wrote: »

Of course there could be a united Ireland. Just ditch the Euro and rejoin GB and Ireland would be united. Simple.

Not really considering that by far the vast majority of people living on the island don't want to join th UK(GB is an Island that Ireland is to the west of)

So you think a UI wont happen then?
Why?

deise go deo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Nothing to do with me. We voted to let Northern Ireland decide for itself.

Well you can have an opinion, Do you think it will happen or should happen?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

seaniedearg

the northern nationalists will really be keen to take their piece of our national debt, which is somewhere between 8000 euros and godlknowswhat per man woman and child..

mouthwatering prospect for them alright

southsiderosie

I don't think the Republic can afford the North. The Germans could barely afford reunification. There would have to be some kind of financial assistance from London to ease the transition. There would also have to be significant economic development in the North over the next few decades, and in particular an expansion of private sector employment.

There would also have to be a complete re-alignment of wage and labor laws, welfare reform, and tax laws.

IMO, Ireland handled European integration very poorly, so I am not optimistic about what the process of Irish integration would be like.

Denerick

In before da clusturfúck.

deise go deo

Denerick wrote: »

In before da clusturfúck.

This isent AH, And that wasent very helpfull,:rolleyes:

catbear

deise go deo wrote: »

Not really considering that by far the vast majority of people living on the island don't want to join th UK(GB is an Island that Ireland is to the west of)

So you think a UI wont happen then?
Why?

Reread my post and tell me what makes you think it wouldn't happen. Take your time now, think about it first.

southsiderosie

catbear wrote: »

Of course there could be a united Ireland. Just ditch the Euro and rejoin GB and Ireland would be united. Simple.

I think the OP is referring to a 32-county united independent Irish Republic.

dkin

Why would they want to join the ROI? First thing I tell any northern nationalist is how lucky they are not to be living in the Republic as it's a disgrace of a country. The North has come on a long way and thankfully the past is behind us.

We are all reintegrating in the EU now, so the future for NI will be as an independent country within the EU if the status quo was to change. Something similar may well happen in Belgium too.

deise go deo

catbear wrote: »

Reread my post and tell me what makes you think it wouldn't happen. Take your time now, think about it first.

No need to be so condescending :rolleyes:

I was, as I'm sure you are aware, talking about a United Ireland Independent of any other country.


Do you think Ireland will Rejoin the UK?
Do you think there will Be An Independent UI?

jugger0

I would love to see a united Ireland. Northern Ireland isnt a country, its ridiculous when you think about it, our tiny island split in 2 by another country ive always wondered what the EU's opinion is on Britains occupation of our country.

To be honest it will never happen with the unionists, i mean they despise us and dont see themselves as Irish anyways. There should be no compromise, Ireland for the Irish, if you want to be British go live in Britain.

alex73

Not A N O T H E R united ireland thread.

Yes there will be IF all the people in the north want it ( I mean a good 60% min)

Personally the status quo works.. (certainly the rep does not have the money to fund the north)

Either way I don't care,, its an idea that is not worth killing innocent people for (like the atrocity in Omagh)


Given the total anti orange sentiment in the south, I can't seem a united Ireland ever, there is no need, no will, no consensus, and no democrate mandate for one.

jock101

jugger0 wrote: »

I would love to see a united Ireland. Northern Ireland isnt a country, its ridiculous when you think about it, our tiny island split in 2 by another country ive always wondered what the EU's opinion is on Britains occupation of our country.

To be honest it will never happen with the unionists, i mean they despise us and dont see themselves as Irish anyways. There should be no compromise, Ireland for the Irish, if you want to be British go live in Britain.

I think you will would find Herman the German and Pierre the Frenchy, dont give a Euro about this nasty little country. "If you want to be British go live in the 6 counties of the United Kingdom"! if you want to be Irish go live in the 26 Freestate counties! :rolleyes:

ULSTER SAYS NO!:mad:

TokenWhite

deise go deo wrote: »

There have been a few threads lately where this has been discussed,

So what do you think of it, What would you like to see it be, how would you like it to be structured etc.

When do you think it will come about and How(if ever)

If you dont think it will happen then Why and why shouldent it happen?

What compromises do you think would need to be made with Unionists if it dose happen?




Personally I think it will happen in the Next 50 years and I hope it dose as NI as a state cannot exist without British money being put into it and as long as it dose exist sectarian violence will never be far away.
I also believe that it would be a great opportunity to reform and restructure the southern state, both economically and politically.

Not really strongly for or against it, it's not really something that I think needs to happen, who benefits? If anything it would probably cause more hassle than it solves, at least if it happens in the near future. You mentioned that you believed there would be less secterian violence in a United Ireland, I would have thought it would get much worse, something akin to the troubles. And in fairness, it as much a unionists home as it is a republicans, certainly they would have more claim to northern ireland than a southerner.

Maybe somewhere down the line when nationalists significantly outnumber unionists it might make sense to do it, but by the time that day comes, there will probably be more pressing issues than 'who do I pay taxes to', because in the greater scheme of things, assuming there is no discrimination involved, I don't think that stuff really matters, or at least I don't think it should matter.

alex73

jock101 wrote: »

I think you will would find Herman the German and Pierre the Frenchy, dont give a Euro about this nasty little country. "If you want to be British go live in the 6 counties of the United Kingdom"! if you want to be Irish go live in the 26 Freestate counties! :rolleyes:

ULSTER SAYS NO!:mad:

Technically all people born in Ireland are Irish,(that's the term the British gave us).

I think united as an Island we could work better together... But that idealism. The Raw divisions run too deep for unity.

Certainly at a human level your average Protestant is as decent as any catholic,,, Its the bad eggs in each basket that ruin things.

jock101

alex73 wrote: »

Technically all people born in Ireland are Irish,(that's the term the British gave us).

I think united as an Island we could work better together... But that idealism. The Raw divisions run too deep for unity.

Certainly at a human level your average Protestant is as decent as any catholic,,, Its the bad eggs in each basket that ruin things.

Can you imagine Dublin trying to rule and fund the extra 2 million people in Ulster! Or them accepting the clumsy style of Government and extortionate tax rates used down there! I think not!

deise go deo

jock101 wrote: »

ULSTER SAYS NO!:mad:

Would that be Ulster the province or Ulster the NI state?

alex73

jock101 wrote: »

Can you imagine Dublin trying to rule and fund the extra 2 million people in Ulster! Or them accepting the clumsy style of Government and extortionate tax rates used down there! I think not!

For sure the last think on Government mind at the moment in United Ireland.

But either way the north can't survive on its own as part of united Kingdom. Would probably be better it it took the Canada/Australia option retaining the Queen as head of state, but as a separate country. It would thrive as a micro nation in Europe. As part of the UK its always at the mercy of London (be that for good or for bad now that they want to cut funding).

However from a practical/Pragmatic point of view, Geologically would be better we were one country. (and government would not have to be in Dublin)

jackbenimble

I think the chances of a United Ireland happening in the foreseeable future are very slim. The main reason isn't that The ROI can't afford it (they can't), or that Loyalists would cause trouble (they would), but rather that NI has changed and is changing as we speak. In twenty years time there'll be three groups in NI instead of two - unionists, nationalists, and others, all about the same size. Discrimination is a thing of the past, inter-marriage is increasing, religiosity is declining, and attitudes are even changing in The Republic as the strangle hold of The RC church and it's twin brother simplistic nationalism are gradually weakening. It's hard to see an international border changing under these circumstance - why would anyone want to bother?

By the way, when I use the words 'foreseeable future', it doesn't mean I see a United Ireland beyond that, only that anything could happen beyond that, including a United Ireland, The Republic rejoining The Union, or a meteor destroying life on earth.

southsiderosie

jock101 wrote: »

Can you imagine Dublin trying to rule and fund the extra 2 million people in Ulster! Or them accepting the clumsy style of Government and extortionate tax rates used down there! I think not!

The tax issue isn't cut and dry. There are many in the north including those in the Unionist community, who would like to see harmonization of corporate tax rates. And there are those in the south who would love to see NI-style minimum wages and social welfare payments.

As emotion-driven as a lot of NI politics are, money issues have made - and will make - reunification more palatable. However, the ROI government's mismanagement of the economy pushed any practical hopes for reunification back at least two decades.

deise go deo

jackbenimble wrote: »

I think the chances of a United Ireland happening in the foreseeable future are very slim. The main reason isn't that The ROI can't afford it (they can't), or that Loyalists would cause trouble (they would), but rather that NI has changed and is changing as we speak. In twenty years time there'll be three groups in NI instead of two - unionists, nationalists, and others, all about the same size. Discrimination is a thing of the past, inter-marriage is increasing, religiosity is declining, and attitudes are even changing in The Republic as the strangle hold of The RC church and it's twin brother simplistic nationalism are gradually weakening. It's hard to see an international border changing under these circumstance - why would anyone want to bother?

By the way, when I use the words 'foreseeable future', it doesn't mean I see a United Ireland beyond that, only that anything could happen beyond that, including a United Ireland, The Republic rejoining The Union, or a meteor destroying life on earth.

Who are these others, Are they Irish, British, What? Or are they Northern Irish as distinct from just Irish?

Many people can see that having a border dividing the Island is a bad Idea that causes cross border smuggling, and waste due to duplication of services.

jock101

I cant see it happening in our lifetime, we are too much culturally different now what 80 odd years later! I like having a land border with another State!

deise go deo

alex73 wrote: »

and government would not have to be in Dublin

The Government of an all island state would almost definitely have to be in Dublin as id is the largest city on the Island,

Where else would it be? Cork?
I know they claim to be the true Capital but you hardly take that seriously?:pac:

Wolfe Tone

A UI will happen in my lifetime. I am sure of it.

Now, I would not want a UI to simply be a few extra tds, no sir. I would not inflict the crap we have hear on my worst enemy. The north and south unifying should NOT simply be seen as an extra 6 counties. It should be seen as an opportunity to found a NEW country, one based on the 1916 proclamation, and its inherent ideals of unity, freedom and respect for every citizen. It should be viewed as a new start, a chance to rip up our out dated constitution and write a new one. A new beginning, the turning of the page on the past 800 years. All that will be irrelevant and finally confined to the history books.


Personally, although I do not know much about political systems, I think a system like the Éire nua one would be a good idea, that is a federal one with the historic provinces as "states"


But above all, it is a chance for a NEW beginning, with a NEW country.

jackbenimble

deise go deo said:

Who are these others, Are they Irish, British, What? Or are they Northern Irish as distinct from just Irish?

They wouldn't describe themselves as Unionist or Nationalist. They might call themselves Irish, British, Northern Irish, European, Citizens of The World, or any combination, or none at all.

Many people can see that having a border dividing the Island is a bad Idea that causes cross border smuggling, and waste due to duplication of services.

Then you'd better abolish every border in the world.

deise go deo

jock101 wrote: »

I cant see it happening in our lifetime, we are too much culturally different now what 80 odd years later! I like having a land border with another State!

What is Culturally different between a Nationalist living in Derry and someone living in Donegall?
What makes the Orange and Green Traditions on the Island any further apart culturally now than they have been for the last 400 years?

southsiderosie

alex73 wrote: »

But either way the north can't survive on its own as part of united Kingdom. Would probably be better it it took the Canada/Australia option retaining the Queen as head of state, but as a separate country. It would thrive as a micro nation in Europe. As part of the UK its always at the mercy of London (be that for good or for bad now that they want to cut funding).

How would this be possible? NI is totally reliant on subsidies and public service employment from its membership in the UK.

deise go deo wrote: »

Who are these others, Are they Irish, British, What? Or are they Northern Irish as distinct from just Irish?

Many people can see that having a border dividing the Island is a bad Idea that causes cross border smuggling, and waste due to duplication of services.

There is a huge problem of duplicate services within NI today, especially in Belfast, with each community demanding its own rec centers, social programs, etc.

Northern Ireland is a bigger economic basketcase than the ROI. I honestly do not see how reunification would be possible in the next 30-40 years unless there were real plans put in place on both sides of the border to get both economies going again, preferably in a harmonized fashion. But the mere hint of cross-border coordination provokes hysteria in some quarters.

southsiderosie

jock101 wrote: »

I cant see it happening in our lifetime, we are too much culturally different now what 80 odd years later! I like having a land border with another State!

Um, speaking as an outsider, you all aren't as culturally different as you might like to think.

deise go deo

jackbenimble wrote: »

They wouldn't describe themselves as Unionist or Nationalist. They might call themselves Irish, British, Northern Irish, European, Citizens of The World, or any combination, or none at all.

So they would be entirely non political? Why, Surely they would have some opinion on the future political direction of their home?

What evidence have you of the emergence of this group?

Then you'd better abolish every border in the world.

Borders between cultures as different as Germany and France for example make sense, a border between Donegall and Derry? Not so much

jackbenimble

deise go deo said:

So they would be entirely non political? Why, Surely they would have some opinion on the future political direction of their home?

They'll have political views to one degree or other, but they won't describe themselves as unionist or nationalist. Such people exist all over The UK and I suspect they are a slowly growing group in The Republic.

What evidence have you of the emergence of this group?

Turnout at elections for one thing. Church attendance for another.

Borders between cultures as different as Germany and France for example make sense, a border between Donegall and Derry? Not so much

That's not the point you made, but even if it was it's irrelevant. How much different do you think the culture is across Flanders, The Netherlands and Northern Germany. For that matter, how much different do you think the culture is between Belfast, Liverpool, Glasgow and even Dublin? The world is shrinking.

deise go deo

jackbenimble wrote: »

That's not the point you made, but even if it was it's irrelevant. How much different do you think the culture is across Flanders, The Netherlands and Northern Germany. For that matter, how much different do you think the culture is between Belfast, Liverpool, Glasgow and even Dublin? The world is shrinking.

So then there is no cultural reason for unionists to object to being part of a United Ireland?

jackbenimble

deise go deo wrote: »

So then there is no cultural reason for unionists to object to being part of a United Ireland?

Or for The Republic to apply to rejoin The Union.

PeterIanStaker

It'll never happen, the Irish media unionists wont ever go for it, also the man in the street in the 26 Counties/South/Republic (select one, I'm not opening that can of worms) has more pressing issues than taking on more counties that have been on life support for decades, its not like there's Harland & Wolff churning out battleships any more.

deise go deo

jackbenimble wrote: »

Or for The Republic to apply to rejoin The Union.

So if there really is no significant difference culturally then why do both sides insist there is?
Are the Irish language, the GAA, Irish music etc not culturally Irish things which are different to Britain?

KeithAFC

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

A UI will happen in my lifetime. I am sure of it.

Now, I would not want a UI to simply be a few extra tds, no sir. I would not inflict the crap we have hear on my worst enemy. The north and south unifying should NOT simply be seen as an extra 6 counties. It should be seen as an opportunity to found a NEW country, one based on the 1916 proclamation, and its inherent ideals of unity, freedom and respect for every citizen. It should be viewed as a new start, a chance to rip up our out dated constitution and write a new one. A new beginning, the turning of the page on the past 800 years. All that will be irrelevant and finally confined to the history books.


Personally, although I do not know much about political systems, I think a system like the Éire nua one would be a good idea, that is a federal one with the historic provinces as "states"


But above all, it is a chance for a NEW beginning, with a NEW country.

It should not be from the 1916 proclamation. I know lads who would rather die and fight to the last breath than go down that route.

deise go deo

KeithAFC wrote: »

It should not be from the 1916 proclamation. I know lads who would rather die and fight to the last breath than go down that route.

Can I ask what specific point made in the 1916 proclamation they would rather and fight against and die because of?

Pauleta

I dont see how people in the Republic of Ireland can benefit from it apart from lost revenue from things like shopping in Newry and that will all be eaten up by increased policing costs.

lugha

deise go deo wrote: »

There have been a few threads lately where this has been discussed,

So what do you think of it, What would you like to see it be, how would you like it to be structured etc.

When do you think it will come about and How(if ever)

If you dont think it will happen then Why and why shouldent it happen?

What compromises do you think would need to be made with Unionists if it dose happen?

I don’t favour it because I have not heard a convincing, or even feeble, argument as to why it might improve the lot of anyone, in either community. For me, that is the only reason for initiating any kind of political change.

It will probably come about eventually, though the Southern state may well have ceded all meaningful authority to the EU by then. (As Britain with their Europhobe leanings, are likely to be three steps behind us, ironically NI would become less independent by throwing their lot in with the South)

As to concessions to unionists, well assuming they peacefully accept their lot, which I doubt (they are every bit as susceptible to daft nationalistic ideas as the other side), they will do very nicely without any formal concessions. If the different flavours of unionism unite, they will make up a large and perpetual political block in any new national parliament.

As for is being an opportunity for political reform, well any new Ireland will ultimately be shaped by politicians and I don’t see those turkeys voting for Xmas. No, any political reform will have to come from the people.

jackbenimble

deise go deo wrote: »

So if there really is no significant difference culturally then why do both sides insist there is?
Are the Irish language, the GAA, Irish music etc not culturally Irish things which are different to Britain?

The Irish language is, as is The GAA, but Irish music is transnational I'd say. I didn't say culture across The British Isles is identical - although it is converging.

KeithAFC

deise go deo wrote: »

Can I ask what specific point made in the 1916 proclamation they would rather and fight against and die because of?

Unionists don't want to be part of a republic. They want to remain a part of the United Kingdom. Using the claim from 1916 is not going to help getting Unionists on side.

Its the No surrender culture which nationalists will have to deal with in order to get a United Ireland. Even if it was done so in a political stance via democratic election, still would not bring ever lasting peace.

CiDeRmAn

Well, in a plausible future where the UK becomes a republic and follows that by fully joining the EU, the border between the UK and Ireland will become as meaningless as the border between California and Arizona.
Roll on a federal Europe!

deise go deo

jackbenimble wrote: »

The Irish language is, as is The GAA, but Irish music is transnational I'd say. I didn't say culture across The British Isles is identical - although it is converging.

So we have it that some people are claiming that culture between the ROI and NI has and is Diverging
but others claim culture accross the 'British Isles' is converging?

Which is it? It seams the jury is out on that one, So lets get back to the case at hand.

Do you think a United Ireland Will Happen(if not why not)
Do you think a United Ireland Should happen(if not why not)

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

Unionists don't want to be part of a republic. They want to remain a part of the United Kingdom. Using the claim from 1916 is not going to help getting Unionists on side.

Its the No surrender culture which nationalists will have to deal with in order to get a United Ireland. Even if it was done so in a political stance via democratic election, still would not bring ever lasting peace.

Just as an aside Keith, how would you feel about an independent 6 or 4 counties.

KeithAFC

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Just as an aside Keith, how would you feel about an independent 6 or 4 counties.

Not for it but i think many unionists would rather have 6 independent counties than join the republic. If it did come down to that.

tim_holsters

United Ireland lol. Hardly high on the list of priorities right now.

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

Not for it but i think many unionists would rather have 6 independent counties than join the republic. If it did come down to that.

Thanks.
I was thinking that.

deise go deo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Unionists don't want to be part of a republic. They want to remain a part of the United Kingdom. Using the claim from 1916 is not going to help getting Unionists on side.

Its the No surrender culture which nationalists will have to deal with in order to get a United Ireland. Even if it was done so in a political stance via democratic election, still would not bring ever lasting peace.

Keith, That is not what I asked you, You said that you know people who would rather die than see a state built on the principles of the 1916 proclamation, I asked which specific principle they have such a violent problem with?