mary harney to use public health service

stanislaw

with regard to the health cutback in the upcoming budget, i think that all of our political class and top earning civil servants should be required by law to use the public health services that they have created.
i think it is possibly the only way that we might get a decent health service. and if as our health minister says that its "up to best european standards" then there should be no complaints or reason why they should'nt be using it themselves.
i have always believed that this should be the case, but especially now where we are expected to endure such cutbacks and hardship, everybody (including the policy makers) should suffer with the same services

what do you all think, and would it be possible to try to get this idea a higher profile ????

ednwireland

well considering they are too lazy or dont have the balls to sort out the mess that is the admin and the hse, i predict a huge cull of frontline service staff followed by (if a recovery ever happens) more admin staff been recruited to manage the new frontline staff and an even bigger budget

stanislaw

ednwireland wrote: »

well considering they are too lazy or dont have the balls to sort out the mess that is the admin and the hse, i predict a huge cull of frontline service staff followed by (if a recovery ever happens) more admin staff been recruited to manage the new frontline staff and an even bigger budget

All the more reason to demand that they use the same service as the general population. it is their system after all

spank_inferno

In the same way it would be super if those in charge of public transport could only use same to go about their day.

PeterIanStaker

They should abolish the HSE and hire a guy with a large shovel to pitch huge amounts of money into a giant furnace instead, all day every day.

stanislaw

spank_inferno wrote: »

In the same way it would be super if those in charge of public transport could only use same to go about their day.

thats exactly what i mean !!
they are so totally detached from reality and real life. Its like they're playing a video game, with no consequences for any real people

stanislaw

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

They should abolish the HSE and hire a guy with a large shovel to pitch huge amounts of money into a giant furnace instead, all day every day.

sadly thats incredibly true.
the amount of money that has been poured into the hse is unbelievable !!
and with no positive results.

that is all the more reason why we should demand that our leaders use the same services as the general population !!!

stanislaw

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

They should abolish the HSE and hire a guy with a large shovel to pitch huge amounts of money into a giant furnace instead, all day every day.

sadly thats incredibly true.
the amount of money that has been poured into the hse is unbelievable !!
and with no positive results.

that is all the more reason why we should demand that our leaders use the same services as the general population !!!
at least then we'd know that have to share the same terrible service that they have created for us.
and god knows, they might even decide to improve it then !!

stanislaw

If only this were true !

This should be the requirement for all government ministers, and upper civil servants.

We should demand that the entire government be required/obliged to use the hse hospital services and not their private health insurance. It would show confidence in the institutions that they have created and would ensure that these services are run properly.

This should the norm for all public services that the government claim work efficiently and to the "European best practice"
What a joke, I dont know what european country they based this on

Darsad

Yeah I would love to see how Harney would get on in our AA sorry A&E

The_Minister

Both her parents died in public hospitals (her mother while Harney was health minister) so I would imagine she would be quite familiar with them.


Keep in mind that private hospitals in Ireland don't actually treat a whole range of diseases so even someone with excellent private care must interact with the public service at times.

Rosahane

The_Minister wrote: »

... Keep in mind that private hospitals in Ireland don't actually treat a whole range of diseases so even someone with excellent private care must interact with the public service at times.

True, but then they go to the Mayo Clinic:(

stanislaw

The_Minister wrote: »

Both her parents died in public hospitals (her mother while Harney was health minister) so I would imagine she would be quite familiar with them.


Keep in mind that private hospitals in Ireland don't actually treat a whole range of diseases so even someone with excellent private care must interact with the public service at times.

while i send my regrets to mary on the death of her parents, it still does not take away from the fact that our hospitals are a disgrace. The A & Es are a nightmare, 10 hrs in a waiting room ??? sleeping on a trolley when you are lucky to be seen and all this in what is supposed to be an emergency situation ????

If you wish to attend outpatients you are most likely to be on a waiting list for at least a month, possible 6 or more.
while I am happy that our minister for finance seems to be on the recovery from his cancer treatment, I feel he received very preferential treatment. had he been a normal citizen of this state his treatment would not have been so speedy.
I live in fear that I or my children might ever catch a serious condition, i cant afford health insurance and i have been working all my life.
I think it really shows great confidence from our government that not one of them uses the public health system. Surely they must know its a shambles and a disgrace !!

stanislaw

Rosahane wrote: »

True, but then they go to the Mayo Clinic:(

thanks for that Rosahane, thats the perfect answer

astrofool

The unions keep the health service the way it is, overstaffed by pen pushers, bad management heavy (to the extent we need to hire in contractors to do their job for them), and ridiculously poor value for money.

We can no longer throw more money at it, we have to sack lots and lots of people to get the health service to a better standard.

Harney can't do this (was stopped by that gobsh*te Bertie Ahern during the creation of the HSE), so blaming her does nothing.

meditraitor

I would like to point out that the health system was on its knee's when Harney took the portfolio and she is getting no help from her collegue's or the unions.

Its the poison chalice in Ireland, a lot of its got to do with the idea that frontline health workers are some kind of saints and you cannot tell them they need to roll up their sleeves or you get it in the kneck from everyone.....

Consultants/Doctors and nurses (relevent unions) are as much a problem as the overflowing admin staff that are behind the scene's....

stanislaw

astrofool wrote: »

The unions keep the health service the way it is, overstaffed by pen pushers, bad management heavy (to the extent we need to hire in contractors to do their job for them), and ridiculously poor value for money.

We can no longer throw more money at it, we have to sack lots and lots of people to get the health service to a better standard.

Harney can't do this (was stopped by that gobsh*te Bertie Ahern during the creation of the HSE), so blaming her does nothing.

I do blame her, and the fianna Fail government for the state of the health service. But the blame game is'nt really important if the situation gets fixed.

But is it not up to her as minister for health to sort it out! If Bertie stood in her way why did'nt she say so and out him for the cowardly politician that he was. She did'nt do that because she did'nt need to. It was never going to be a place or service that she (or any other minister) would ever need themselves.
They should be required by law to use the standard services of the state where possible, its the only way that politicians will ever provide decent sercvices, that our taxes are paying for !!

stanislaw

meditraitor wrote: »

I would like to point out that the health system was on its knee's when Harney took the portfolio and she is getting no help from her collegue's or the unions.

Its the poison chalice in Ireland, a lot of its got to do with the idea that frontline health workers are some kind of saints and you cannot tell them they need to roll up their sleeves or you get it in the kneck from everyone.....

Consultants/Doctors and nurses (relevent unions) are as much a problem as the overflowing admin staff that are behind the scene's....

thats most likely true, but i dont think there has been any improvment in the 8 years that MH has been the minister.

And whatever the reasons and problems within the service is that not what we elect these people for, ( they promise to sort these things out, if they promised to do nothing we would'nt vote for them!). They have spent an absolute fortune on consultants and more consultants to tell them how to fix it, but none of these people will ever have to use these services so there is no REAL necessity on them to sort out the problems within, and give us a health service that actually provides a decent service.

they should have to use it themselves

senordingdong

stanislaw wrote: »

If only this were true !

This should be the requirement for all government ministers, and upper civil servants.

We should demand that the entire government be required/obliged to use the hse hospital services and not their private health insurance. It would show confidence in the institutions that they have created and would ensure that these services are run properly.

This should the norm for all public services that the government claim work efficiently and to the "European best practice"
What a joke, I dont know what european country they based this on

And they should all be made to use public transport.

stanislaw

senordingdong wrote: »

And they should all be made to use public transport.

yup, they should have to.

anything to bring them back to reality

flutered

does not our minister for bank rooling the banks, get his cancer treatment in the u.s.a. when he gets a cold its into the mater private with him, a pity himself and the minister for badly managed health affairs do not spend a saturday night, sunday in the mid west regional hospital in limerick, thats the one that was downgraded twice, to upgrade the university hospital in cork.

stanislaw

flutered wrote: »

does not our minister for bank rooling the banks, get his cancer treatment in the u.s.a. when he gets a cold its into the mater private with him, a pity himself and the minister for badly managed health affairs do not spend a saturday night, sunday in the mid west regional hospital in limerick, thats the one that was downgraded twice, to upgrade the university hospital in cork.

well then thats where our minister for health should be treated, in the worst performing hospital, within the system she has created

Nijmegen

The failure to reform the HSE is simply the biggest example of the failure to take on the unions.

I think that forcing politicians to use public services would be a great idea.

We could also have them collect their salaries from social welfare offices.

Let them stand in line, meet the people they represent and stand there while the teller counts out a few grand in salary and expenses every week.

stanislaw

Nijmegen wrote: »

The failure to reform the HSE is simply the biggest example of the failure to take on the unions.

I think that forcing politicians to use public services would be a great idea.

We could also have them collect their salaries from social welfare offices.

Let them stand in line, meet the people they represent and stand there while the teller counts out a few grand in salary and expenses every week.

i think maybe that this is what this country needs, especially at the present time. Its so easy for them to talk of how they know that people are suffering, but if they had to meet and queue with them every week it might make it finally sink in what hardship they are causing and how their decisions effect real people

stanislaw

Nijmegen wrote: »

The failure to reform the HSE is simply the biggest example of the failure to take on the unions.


the unions problem is a strange one.
did you know that all of our TDs are members of the Impact trade union.

Rovi

Making the decision makers and managers accountable for the services under their care isn't an entirely new notion; back at the time of the impending Millennium Bug/Y2K frenzy, the Chinese government took a pragmatic approach to ensuring that their domestic airlines took the necessary precautions:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/01/16/world/world-briefing.html

CHINA: THE PERSONAL TOUCH -- China has given its airlines an incentive to get ready for the year 2000 computer bug, ordering airline chiefs to board their own flights next New Year's Day, The Financial Times of London reported. ''All the heads of the airlines have got to be in the air on January 1, 2000,'' said Zhao Bo, who is in charge of handling the Y2K problem. (Agence France-Presse)

djpbarry

stanislaw wrote: »

while i send my regrets to mary on the death of her parents, it still does not take away from the fact that our hospitals are a disgrace.

Are they? Compared to what?

stanislaw wrote: »

I think it really shows great confidence from our government that not one of them uses the public health system.

How do you know?

stanislaw wrote: »

thats most likely true, but i dont think there has been any improvment in the 8 years that MH has been the minister.

You sure about that? According to the OECD, cancer survival rates (for example) in Ireland have increased significantly in the last number of years, largely due to more effective screening programmes (breast and cervical, in particular). There has also been a decrease in the number of in-hospital deaths following heart attacks.

We have universal health care coverage. Life expectancy is about average. The number of physicians per capita is about average. However, the number of nurses per capita is about 60% above the OECD average (and, not surprisingly, they are among the best paid in the OECD). Average length of stay for acute care is below average.

Where we do lag behind is in access to equipment such as CT’s and MRI’s, hence the long waiting times for such examinations (perhaps a trimming of nurse numbers might free up the necessary funds?).

Furthermore, health expenditure per capita in Ireland is not particularly high – we lag behind several European countries (Denmark, Germany, Belgium, France, Austria, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Switzerland and Norway) while being only marginally higher than others (Iceland and Sweden).

So, all-in-all, it seems that for an “about average” per capita spend on health, we have an “about average” health care system.

All of the above statisitics can be verified using the OECD Health Statistics Portal.

stanislaw

Originally Posted by stanislaw
while i send my regrets to mary on the death of her parents, it still does not take away from the fact that our hospitals are a disgrace.


Are they? Compared to what?

do they need to be compared to anything ?? our system does not work. If you attend A&E you are hoping to be seen to as an emergency, 10hrs or more later does'nt seem like an emegency to me.
If you want a consultation, its takes you months to be seen, if you are lucky. If it turns out you have something serious like cancer that sort of delay in dianosis is fatal.
I think possibly when you actually get into the system/hospital your treatment is fine, but it takes far too long to get into it.

I think that trying to compare it to other health services is of no use.
Our health system should be something we are confident in and proud of.
At present ITS NOT !!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanislaw
I think it really shows great confidence from our government that not one of them uses the public health system.

How do you know?

well, can you name some.
I would reckon that our minister for finance uses high end health insurance, because there's no chance he would have received his cancer treatment so quick on the public service, He'd probably still be waiting for his test results or a referral to a consultant !

stanislaw

Rovi wrote: »

Making the decision makers and managers accountable for the services under their care isn't an entirely new notion; back at the time of the impending Millennium Bug/Y2K frenzy, the Chinese government took a pragmatic approach to ensuring that their domestic airlines took the necessary precautions:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/01/16/world/world-briefing.html

yes i heard of that (it was a great way to ensure things were done properly) and previous ideas before.
but it should be a demand we put on our politicians and senior politicians. because they take no notice of our complaints of bad service

stanislaw

djpbarry wrote: »

You sure about that? According to the OECD, cancer survival rates (for example) in Ireland have increased significantly in the last number of years, largely due to more effective screening programmes (breast and cervical, in particular). There has also been a decrease in the number of in-hospital deaths following heart attacks. QUOTE

all that is welcome and what you would expect from your health service !
but you have to be able to access these facilities within a reasonable time frame.

djpbarry wrote: »

We have universal health care coverage. Life expectancy is about average. The number of physicians per capita is about average. However, the number of nurses per capita is about 60% above the OECD average (and, not surprisingly, they are among the best paid in the OECD). Average length of stay for acute care is below average.[QUOTE

yes, we peobably do have universal health care.
Its unfortunate that so many people feel they need health insurance in able to get some sort semi-efficient healt care.
If you cant affoard health insurance, you have to wait !!
Is state health cover not one of the reasons we pay PRSI ??

djpbarry wrote: »

Where we do lag behind is in access to equipment such as CT’s and MRI’s, hence the long waiting times for such examinations (perhaps a trimming of nurse numbers might free up the necessary funds?).[QUOTE

There are far more problem groups within the HSE than just the nurses.!
And we do have very large investment in the HSE, is not this investment there for the purchase of and to provide access of such equipment. as well as the overall operation of the HSE

djpbarry wrote: »

Furthermore, health expenditure per capita in Ireland is not particularly high – we lag behind several European countries (Denmark, Germany, Belgium, France, Austria, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Switzerland and Norway) while being only marginally higher than others (Iceland and Sweden).

So, all-in-all, it seems that for an “about average” per capita spend on health, we have an “about average” health care system.

All of the above statisitics can be verified using the OECD Health Statistics Portal.

As we have seen , throwing money at the HSE does'nt seem to work.
The money needs to be targetted properly.
You could probably achieve much better results for a much lower spend if the Hse was run properly.
MY personal view is that there are too many bonuses and the salarys are too big for the various managers. But im sure i dont know the full story.

But our minister and overall government are all paid to solve these problems !!

statistics are great but they take a sterile view and while they provide valuable and much needed information, they dont always tell the full story.

astrofool

Can you quote properly if you reply?

The bulk of the cost in the HSE is on staff wages, not on top level manager salaries and bonuses.

It's a bit like blaming the politicians pay for our deficit, even when paying them nothing would be a drop in the ocean, what needs to be tackled are the wages of absolutely everyone in the public services, including TD's and managers.

Tipp Man

Touch wood i never use the health service in this country so i don't know how good or bad it is in reality (but do know it is costing a large fortune to run it)

However my friend injured his knee and was sent for an X ray in Ardkeen or Waterford Regional or whatever its called. He was in and out in about 30 mins and couldn't believe how fast it was

Are things really that bad in the health service or is it a bit of an urban myth that keeps running?

stanislaw

astrofool wrote: »

Can you quote properly if you reply?

The bulk of the cost in the HSE is on staff wages, not on top level manager salaries and bonuses.

It's a bit like blaming the politicians pay for our deficit, even when paying them nothing would be a drop in the ocean, what needs to be tackled are the wages of absolutely everyone in the public services, including TD's and managers.

re the HSE, it does appear that is where a lot of the money goes, but that does'nt mean that the top level wages and bonuses should'nt be cut.

But the politicians are to blame for our deficit !!
While they wer'nt running the banks, they appointed the regulators to monitor good practice in the banks, they did'nt do their jobs properly, they wer'nt sacked or sanctioned but paid off with a happy pension??

But to return to my main point
If the politicians had to access the same services that they put in place for the general public then I reckon we'd have a much better and efficient service

re quoteing, clip the quote button rather than the reply button

John Lennon Peace Love and FF

astrofool wrote: »

Can you quote properly if you reply?

The bulk of the cost in the HSE is on staff wages, not on top level manager salaries and bonuses.

It's a bit like blaming the politicians pay for our deficit, even when paying them nothing would be a drop in the ocean, what needs to be tackled are the wages of absolutely everyone in the public services, including TD's and managers.

That is true man, the begrudgery and hate of these people is astounding.

stanislaw

John Lennon Peace Love and FF wrote: »

That is true man, the begrudgery and hate of these people is astounding.

speechless

The_Minister

Tipp Man wrote: »

Touch wood i never use the health service in this country so i don't know how good or bad it is in reality (but do know it is costing a large fortune to run it)

However my friend injured his knee and was sent for an X ray in Ardkeen or Waterford Regional or whatever its called. He was in and out in about 30 mins and couldn't believe how fast it was

Are things really that bad in the health service or is it a bit of an urban myth that keeps running?

There are good bits and bad bits, good times and bad times.

Emergency care is normally fantastic, but if you aren't an emergency and they are busy, you will sit on a trolley for a good while.

Basically, despite the continuous bad news stories there is a reason that most people surveyed on using the health service are happy with it - it works most of the time, for most people (and they have such low expectations going in).

stanislaw

Tipp Man wrote: »

Touch wood i never use the health service in this country so i don't know how good or bad it is in reality (but do know it is costing a large fortune to run it)

However my friend injured his knee and was sent for an X ray in Ardkeen or Waterford Regional or whatever its called. He was in and out in about 30 mins and couldn't believe how fast it was

Are things really that bad in the health service or is it a bit of an urban myth that keeps running?

your friend seems to have been very lucky. maybe the situation is much worse in dublin ??? but i doubt it
my own story from friends involved a 10 hr wait in A&E.
and another of a year long wait to be assessed only to have to wait another 8 months for surgery

is waterford hospital one of the hospitals due for closure or cutbacks ???

stanislaw

The_Minister wrote: »

There are good bits and bad bits, good times and bad times.

Emergency care is normally fantastic, but if you aren't an emergency and they are busy, you will sit on a trolley for a good while.

Basically, despite the continuous bad news stories there is a reason that most people surveyed on using the health service are happy with it - it works most of the time, for most people (and they have such low expectations going in).

maybe being irish, we have very low expectations.
we should demand better

djpbarry

stanislaw wrote: »

do they need to be compared to anything ??

Well, yes, they do. If you’re labelling the system as “a disgrace”, then we need a frame of reference. How do you define “a disgrace”?

stanislaw wrote: »

our system does not work.

Based on what metrics?

stanislaw wrote: »

If you attend A&E you are hoping to be seen to as an emergency, 10hrs or more later does'nt seem like an emegency to me.

There is certainly an issue with regard to waiting times for hospital beds and that needs to be addressed. However, just because someone has not yet been given a bed, it doesn’t mean that they haven’t been “seen to”.

stanislaw wrote: »

I think possibly when you actually get into the system/hospital your treatment is fine, but it takes far too long to get into it.

But you said just a few posts back that our hospitals are “a disgrace”?

stanislaw wrote: »

I think that trying to compare it to other health services is of no use.

Why not? How can we improve the service unless we consider how other (better) health services operate?

stanislaw wrote: »

well, can you name some.

Of course I can’t – the private affairs of politicians is of no concern to me and it’s not the sort of thing that should be in the public domain. You’re simply speculating.

stanislaw wrote: »

Is state health cover not one of the reasons we pay PRSI ??

Yes and no – the level of PRSI that we pay is nowhere near enough to cover the cost of our public service and our social welfare bill.

stanislaw wrote: »

There are far more problem groups within the HSE than just the nurses.!

My point is that there seems to be a common belief that one of the core problems of the HSE is a bloated administration. This may well be the case, but we also seem to have a very large staff of very well paid nurses, something that is rarely, if ever, discussed.

stanislaw wrote: »

And we do have very large investment in the HSE...

Like I said, it’s about average relative to other European states.

stanislaw wrote: »

...is not this investment there for the purchase of and to provide access of such equipment. as well as the overall operation of the HSE

Well, yes, of course it is. But if (for example) we’re paying for 60% more nurses than other OECD states...

stanislaw wrote: »

MY personal view is that there are too many bonuses and the salarys are too big for the various managers.

So let’s say we cut the salary of all the “various managers” by 50% - how much will that knock off the HSE’s operating costs? More importantly, do all these “various managers” deserve to have their pay drastically reduced?

stanislaw wrote: »

statistics are great but they take a sterile view and while they provide valuable and much needed information, they dont always tell the full story.

Statistics are the best we have to determine the performance of the HSE. The problem is that too often their performance is judged based on exaggerated anecdotes or scare stories in the media. A little objectivity is badly needed.

djpbarry

stanislaw wrote: »

maybe being irish, we have very low expectations.
we should demand better

There’s always room for improvement, no matter how good a system is. However, objectively identifying ways in which a system can be improved is very different to dismissing something, without basis, as “a disgrace” – the latter is meaningless and not terribly constructive, while the former can lead to a better system.

flutered

Where we do lag behind is in access to equipment such as CT’s and MRI’s, hence the long waiting times for such examinations (perhaps a trimming of nurse numbers might free up the necessary funds?).

lets revert back to the mid west regional hospital in limerick, who installed the following
the mri machine,
the dialyasis machine
the cancer care unit
re vamped most of the wards etc etc.
not the hse or any goverment minister or department, it was a private individual j.p. mc manus.
there have been one hospitals closed in limerick in recent years, barringtons another st johns is not far behind it.
only for him we would have a third world hospital in limerick, perhaps it is deserved for electing so many yes t-shocks.

irishh_bob

meditraitor wrote: »

I would like to point out that the health system was on its knee's when Harney took the portfolio and she is getting no help from her collegue's or the unions.

Its the poison chalice in Ireland, a lot of its got to do with the idea that frontline health workers are some kind of saints and you cannot tell them they need to roll up their sleeves or you get it in the kneck from everyone.....

Consultants/Doctors and nurses (relevent unions) are as much a problem as the overflowing admin staff that are behind the scene's....

dont know about doctors or consultants but nurses are the most sacred of sacred cows in this country , always amazes me how the parents of sick children who go on the airwaves to complain about childrens wards being shut , never seem to realise that having the highest paid nurses in europe comes at the expense of services to children etc

we have a long tradition in this country of pumping out nurses ( going back decades ) to work either here or abroad and this has resulted in an ingrained and frankly sentimental regard for them

ninty9er

First of all. What information is the premise of this thread based on. I don't know where to find info on where TDs get their medical treatment. Point it out please.

Secondly, the survival rates from cancer are much higher in our public hospitals than our private ones.

Thirdly, even if they use private hospitals, there is a benefit to the public system, they are not taking up space in it.

flutered wrote: »

does not our minister for bank rooling the banks, get his cancer treatment in the u.s.a. when he gets a cold its into the mater private with him, a pity himself and the minister for badly managed health affairs do not spend a saturday night, sunday in the mid west regional hospital in limerick, thats the one that was downgraded twice, to upgrade the university hospital in cork.

When was MWRH downgraded? I was there last Friday week when my granny shattered her hip. Once she was made comfortable she was left to wait for a bed whilst other URGENT cases were treated. Her shattered hip was not going to become more shattered as a result of waiting for a bed in A&E.

I have been an inpatient for over a week on 2 occasions in the last 4 years in MWRH and had an entirely positive experience, even though I did have to wait 3 hours for a bed the second time. People get beds based on their priority, not their time of entry.

You are in fact spouting complete and utter bull****. The A&E in Limerick was rewarded with 10 new consultants in 2007 as the most efficient A&E in the country.
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/ihca-cautiously-welcomes-hiring-of-new-consultants-1064259.html

stanislaw wrote: »

do they need to be compared to anything ?? our system does not work. If you attend A&E you are hoping to be seen to as an emergency, 10hrs or more later does'nt seem like an emegency to me.

If you haven't been seen 10 hours later you are clearly NOT an emergency. I had to take a friend to A&E in Tralee at 2:45am on a Sunday morning 3 weeks ago. He was seen instantly ahead of those waiting as he was an EMERGENCY case.

Stanislaw wrote:

I think it really shows great confidence from our government that not one of them uses the public health system.

How do you know this? Or are you assuming to make an ass out of u and me.

The_Minister wrote: »

Emergency care is normally fantastic, but if you aren't an emergency and they are busy, you will sit on a trolley for a good while.

As it should be, if you are not an emergency case, you should not be in A&E

flutered wrote: »

Where we do lag behind is in access to equipment such as CT’s and MRI’s, hence the long waiting times for such examinations (perhaps a trimming of nurse numbers might free up the necessary funds?).

lets revert back to the mid west regional hospital in limerick, who installed the following
the mri machine,
the dialyasis machine
the cancer care unit
re vamped most of the wards etc etc.
not the hse or any goverment minister or department, it was a private individual j.p. mc manus.
there have been one hospitals closed in limerick in recent years, barringtons another st johns is not far behind it.
only for him we would have a third world hospital in limerick, perhaps it is deserved for electing so many yes t-shocks.

Limerick doesn't need 3 hospitals. Barringtons is still open and St. John's is non-acute. Realistically, there is enough unopened space in Dooradoyle to house all of the St. John's patients if the staff were moved. There is no logical reason to keep John's open.

I think you'll find that the (still mainly unopened) almost double size extension during the late 90s at Dooradoyle was as a result of Michael Noonan being Minister for Health and being able to see the hospital from his constituency office.

JP McManus deserves credit, but did not do all of that single handedly. You have to give particular credit to Dr. Gupta for the cancer care services for example. A great doctor who would treat a patient to the best of his ability regardless of equipment. Unfortunately I have personal family experience of this, the unfortunate part wasn't the lack of top class treatment, but relapse. Still 7 years is quite a long time for someone in their late 60s at diagnosis with bowel cancer to survive.

The HSE NEEDS CUTS in order to become efficient. I don't begrudge anyone private health care, I'd just question why they bother.

stanislaw

djpbarry wrote: »

There’s always room for improvement, no matter how good a system is. However, objectively identifying ways in which a system can be improved is very different to dismissing something, without basis, as “a disgrace” – the latter is meaningless and not terribly constructive, while the former can lead to a better system.

Firstly, I agree with you that there is always room for improvement even in a good system.
We dont have a good system, from my own experiences i have seen this, and it is a disgrace.

Identifiying ways in which a system can be improved ??
Do we not employ people for this task.
Oh yes, that is why we have a minister for health,
who controls the department of health and the HSE.
these are the people who have the information and the statistics on the entire health service.

If you want ideas and solutions on how to improve the hse from me, Il gladly take the job and devote my time to find improvement. Im sure that many people (inc. me) would be confident of not doing any worse than what we have already.


My call for our government and senior civil servants to use the same hospital services as provided to the regular citizen is still very valid and I think it should be manditory for them.

djpbarry

stanislaw wrote: »

Identifiying ways in which a system can be improved ??
Do we not employ people for this task.

That’s a cop-out. You are labelling the health system ‘a disgrace’ (which is ridiculous given the facts), so it is perfectly reasonable for you to be asked why you consider it a disgrace and what you would like to see changed. For example: perhaps we should consider reducing the number of nurses employed by the HSE.

Nijmegen

djpbarry wrote: »

That’s a cop-out. You are labelling the health system ‘a disgrace’ (which is ridiculous given the facts), so it is perfectly reasonable for you to be asked why you consider it a disgrace and what you would like to see changed. For example: perhaps we should consider reducing the number of nurses employed by the HSE.

Here's how I'd do it if it were an area of my business (a department of the government, in this case). I'm not really an expert on all areas of my business, not a deep one at least. As Henry Ford said when he was being ridiculed for his own lack of education, he'd call up the local university, ask after the very best and brightest in a particular area and then he'd hire them.

For the health service, firstly I think you need to remove the iron tight rules surrounding staff: People need to have their cheese moved around, be it redeployment, changes in working practices, etc. This is fundamental. Ask a public sector worker to use a black rather than a blue pen and invariably you get the unions running you out of town.

You can't bring change to an organisation like that, ever.

With the candor to be able to do so, I would bring in the following sorts of people and give them an assignment:

• Leaders from the very best healthcare systems we can identify, including those from systems we do not employ in Ireland
• Process and change management professionals from big, functional governments and industry
• Healthcare specialists across the spectrum of care required

There are probably other folks I'm missing. I daresay if I sit down with three people who've run healthcare in the likes of Scandinavia, the US or Germany I would get a shopping list of other professionals I need around the table.

I would create this group of experts and give them a mission: Forget about the HSE. Think of Ireland as a country of 4.5 million people with such and such a geographical, demographical, disease and so forth profile. Only thing they need to take into account is where we've got the major capital investments (hospitals) today.

Don't give them a budget yet.

Now build me the healthcare system you think I need in an ideal world.

The systems, the process, the numbers, the care centres, the specialist wards, the lot.

When this is done, I'll take a freak attack at the budget proposal.

I'll come back and tell you, okay, great plan, but I've only got XXbn. Cut down your plan into that budget. Prioritise. Make the case for investments I need to be making outside of my regular budget - Eg. more advanced IT systems.

Give me a whole new healthcare system that you think will work. Or give me three or four options.

Then let's roll.

stanislaw

djpbarry wrote: »

That’s a cop-out. You are labelling the health system ‘a disgrace’ (which is ridiculous given the facts), so it is perfectly reasonable for you to be asked why you consider it a disgrace and what you would like to see changed. For example: perhaps we should consider reducing the number of nurses employed by the HSE.

"health cutbacks in the budget
with regard to the health cutback in the upcoming budget, i think that all of our political class and top earning civil servants should be required by law to use the public health services that they have created.
i think it is possibly the only way that we might get a decent health service. and if as our health minister says that its "up to best european standards" then there should be no complaints or reason why they should'nt be using it themselves.
i have always believed that this should be the case, but especially now where we are expected to endure such cutbacks and hardship, everybody (including the policy makers) should suffer with the same services

what do you all think, and would it be possible to try to get this idea a higher profile ????"


this is my origional post, you hav'nt expressed an opinion on it yet and i would be grateful if you could let me know what you think .

djpbarry

stanislaw wrote: »

...i think that all of our political class and top earning civil servants should be required by law to use the public health services that they have created.

As was already pointed out to you, this thread is based on the premise that TD's and top civil servants do not use the public healthcare system in this country, which you have no way of verifying.

stanislaw

djpbarry wrote: »

As was already pointed out to you, this thread is based on the premise that TD's and top civil servants do not use the public healthcare system in this country, which you have no way of verifying.

now that sounds like a bit of a cop out !!
maybe im wrong, maybe they all use the public system.
But what is your opinion ??? What do you think ?

stanislaw

health cutbacks in the budget
with regard to the health cutback in the upcoming budget, i think that all of our political class and top earning civil servants should be required by law to use the public health services that they have created.
i think it is possibly the only way that we might get a decent health service. and if as our health minister says that its "up to best european standards" then there should be no complaints or reason why they should'nt be using it themselves.
i have always believed that this should be the case, but especially now where we are expected to endure such cutbacks and hardship, everybody (including the policy makers) should suffer with the same services

what do you all think, and would it be possible to try to get this idea a higher profile ????

Above is my origional post,
Im reposting it because this is what i wanted opinions on and not on how to fix the system.

flutered

ninty9er wrote: »

First of all. What information is the premise of this thread based on. I don't know where to find info on where TDs get their medical treatment. Point it out please.
answer the web if you are too lazy to look it up then i will not oblige you, oh i did say on they should be in a&e on a saturday night sunday morning

Secondly, the survival rates from cancer are much higher in our public hospitals than our private ones.
answer, then why are the mater private provideing cancer care in the regional, i

Thirdly, even if they use private hospitals, there is a benefit to the public system, they are not taking up space in it.
answer bull****e young man


When was MWRH downgraded? I was there last Friday week when my granny shattered her hip. Once she was made comfortable she was left to wait for a bed whilst other URGENT cases were treated. Her shattered hip was not going to become more shattered as a result of waiting for a bed in A&E.
answer a shattered hip requires a special bed how the hell could she be comfortable.

You are in fact spouting complete and utter bull****. The A&E in Limerick was rewarded with 10 new consultants in 2007 as the most efficient A&E in the country.
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/ihca-cautiously-welcomes-hiring-of-new-consultants-1064259.html

answer were the appointed, every one who reads or glances through the sindo can only come to one conclusion it is a propanda machine for clowen cowen the bankers tanker etc. just read through the polotics and economics forms of this site and get the jist of what people think of the sindo
its not so long ago that funds were deducted from the hospitals funding because it did not measure up to percieved standards, how many extra medical staff have been appointed to deal with a&e services from ennis and nenagh.

Limerick doesn't need 3 hospitals. Barringtons is still open and St. John's is non-acute.
answer barringtons is a private hospital only, without health insurance or cash one cannot acess it st johns has been downgraded so far that consultants are saying the next thing it faces is closure
the cancer treatment centre at the regional would be in galway only for j.p.mcmanus, fact, there is no wash suite in ward 3b, j.p.mcmanus provided the cash to install one, what happened, they are shutting it.
galway has eight yes 8 urinologists, the regional has only one yes 1.
a local sporting ledgend from patrickswell was admitted to the regional, where was he treated ? you guessed it in galway, only for j.ps clout and cash we would not have a hospital just a health centre,
professor martinson (forgive my spelling) now claims that the ortipedic in croom has had zilch investment in ten yes 10 years oh by the way he is the head there plus he also lectures on orthipedics.