mary harney to use public health service

stanislaw

with regard to the health cutback in the upcoming budget, i think that all of our political class and top earning civil servants should be required by law to use the public health services that they have created.
i think it is possibly the only way that we might get a decent health service. and if as our health minister says that its "up to best european standards" then there should be no complaints or reason why they should'nt be using it themselves.
i have always believed that this should be the case, but especially now where we are expected to endure such cutbacks and hardship, everybody (including the policy makers) should suffer with the same services

what do you all think, and would it be possible to try to get this idea a higher profile ????

ednwireland

well considering they are too lazy or dont have the balls to sort out the mess that is the admin and the hse, i predict a huge cull of frontline service staff followed by (if a recovery ever happens) more admin staff been recruited to manage the new frontline staff and an even bigger budget

stanislaw

ednwireland wrote: »

well considering they are too lazy or dont have the balls to sort out the mess that is the admin and the hse, i predict a huge cull of frontline service staff followed by (if a recovery ever happens) more admin staff been recruited to manage the new frontline staff and an even bigger budget

All the more reason to demand that they use the same service as the general population. it is their system after all

spank_inferno

In the same way it would be super if those in charge of public transport could only use same to go about their day.

PeterIanStaker

They should abolish the HSE and hire a guy with a large shovel to pitch huge amounts of money into a giant furnace instead, all day every day.

stanislaw

spank_inferno wrote: »

In the same way it would be super if those in charge of public transport could only use same to go about their day.

thats exactly what i mean !!
they are so totally detached from reality and real life. Its like they're playing a video game, with no consequences for any real people

stanislaw

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

They should abolish the HSE and hire a guy with a large shovel to pitch huge amounts of money into a giant furnace instead, all day every day.

sadly thats incredibly true.
the amount of money that has been poured into the hse is unbelievable !!
and with no positive results.

that is all the more reason why we should demand that our leaders use the same services as the general population !!!

stanislaw

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

They should abolish the HSE and hire a guy with a large shovel to pitch huge amounts of money into a giant furnace instead, all day every day.

sadly thats incredibly true.
the amount of money that has been poured into the hse is unbelievable !!
and with no positive results.

that is all the more reason why we should demand that our leaders use the same services as the general population !!!
at least then we'd know that have to share the same terrible service that they have created for us.
and god knows, they might even decide to improve it then !!

stanislaw

If only this were true !

This should be the requirement for all government ministers, and upper civil servants.

We should demand that the entire government be required/obliged to use the hse hospital services and not their private health insurance. It would show confidence in the institutions that they have created and would ensure that these services are run properly.

This should the norm for all public services that the government claim work efficiently and to the "European best practice"
What a joke, I dont know what european country they based this on

Darsad

Yeah I would love to see how Harney would get on in our AA sorry A&E

The_Minister

Both her parents died in public hospitals (her mother while Harney was health minister) so I would imagine she would be quite familiar with them.


Keep in mind that private hospitals in Ireland don't actually treat a whole range of diseases so even someone with excellent private care must interact with the public service at times.

Rosahane

The_Minister wrote: »

... Keep in mind that private hospitals in Ireland don't actually treat a whole range of diseases so even someone with excellent private care must interact with the public service at times.

True, but then they go to the Mayo Clinic:(

stanislaw

The_Minister wrote: »

Both her parents died in public hospitals (her mother while Harney was health minister) so I would imagine she would be quite familiar with them.


Keep in mind that private hospitals in Ireland don't actually treat a whole range of diseases so even someone with excellent private care must interact with the public service at times.

while i send my regrets to mary on the death of her parents, it still does not take away from the fact that our hospitals are a disgrace. The A & Es are a nightmare, 10 hrs in a waiting room ??? sleeping on a trolley when you are lucky to be seen and all this in what is supposed to be an emergency situation ????

If you wish to attend outpatients you are most likely to be on a waiting list for at least a month, possible 6 or more.
while I am happy that our minister for finance seems to be on the recovery from his cancer treatment, I feel he received very preferential treatment. had he been a normal citizen of this state his treatment would not have been so speedy.
I live in fear that I or my children might ever catch a serious condition, i cant afford health insurance and i have been working all my life.
I think it really shows great confidence from our government that not one of them uses the public health system. Surely they must know its a shambles and a disgrace !!

stanislaw

Rosahane wrote: »

True, but then they go to the Mayo Clinic:(

thanks for that Rosahane, thats the perfect answer

astrofool

The unions keep the health service the way it is, overstaffed by pen pushers, bad management heavy (to the extent we need to hire in contractors to do their job for them), and ridiculously poor value for money.

We can no longer throw more money at it, we have to sack lots and lots of people to get the health service to a better standard.

Harney can't do this (was stopped by that gobsh*te Bertie Ahern during the creation of the HSE), so blaming her does nothing.

meditraitor

I would like to point out that the health system was on its knee's when Harney took the portfolio and she is getting no help from her collegue's or the unions.

Its the poison chalice in Ireland, a lot of its got to do with the idea that frontline health workers are some kind of saints and you cannot tell them they need to roll up their sleeves or you get it in the kneck from everyone.....

Consultants/Doctors and nurses (relevent unions) are as much a problem as the overflowing admin staff that are behind the scene's....

stanislaw

astrofool wrote: »

The unions keep the health service the way it is, overstaffed by pen pushers, bad management heavy (to the extent we need to hire in contractors to do their job for them), and ridiculously poor value for money.

We can no longer throw more money at it, we have to sack lots and lots of people to get the health service to a better standard.

Harney can't do this (was stopped by that gobsh*te Bertie Ahern during the creation of the HSE), so blaming her does nothing.

I do blame her, and the fianna Fail government for the state of the health service. But the blame game is'nt really important if the situation gets fixed.

But is it not up to her as minister for health to sort it out! If Bertie stood in her way why did'nt she say so and out him for the cowardly politician that he was. She did'nt do that because she did'nt need to. It was never going to be a place or service that she (or any other minister) would ever need themselves.
They should be required by law to use the standard services of the state where possible, its the only way that politicians will ever provide decent sercvices, that our taxes are paying for !!

stanislaw

meditraitor wrote: »

I would like to point out that the health system was on its knee's when Harney took the portfolio and she is getting no help from her collegue's or the unions.

Its the poison chalice in Ireland, a lot of its got to do with the idea that frontline health workers are some kind of saints and you cannot tell them they need to roll up their sleeves or you get it in the kneck from everyone.....

Consultants/Doctors and nurses (relevent unions) are as much a problem as the overflowing admin staff that are behind the scene's....

thats most likely true, but i dont think there has been any improvment in the 8 years that MH has been the minister.

And whatever the reasons and problems within the service is that not what we elect these people for, ( they promise to sort these things out, if they promised to do nothing we would'nt vote for them!). They have spent an absolute fortune on consultants and more consultants to tell them how to fix it, but none of these people will ever have to use these services so there is no REAL necessity on them to sort out the problems within, and give us a health service that actually provides a decent service.

they should have to use it themselves

senordingdong

stanislaw wrote: »

If only this were true !

This should be the requirement for all government ministers, and upper civil servants.

We should demand that the entire government be required/obliged to use the hse hospital services and not their private health insurance. It would show confidence in the institutions that they have created and would ensure that these services are run properly.

This should the norm for all public services that the government claim work efficiently and to the "European best practice"
What a joke, I dont know what european country they based this on

And they should all be made to use public transport.

stanislaw

senordingdong wrote: »

And they should all be made to use public transport.

yup, they should have to.

anything to bring them back to reality

flutered

does not our minister for bank rooling the banks, get his cancer treatment in the u.s.a. when he gets a cold its into the mater private with him, a pity himself and the minister for badly managed health affairs do not spend a saturday night, sunday in the mid west regional hospital in limerick, thats the one that was downgraded twice, to upgrade the university hospital in cork.

stanislaw

flutered wrote: »

does not our minister for bank rooling the banks, get his cancer treatment in the u.s.a. when he gets a cold its into the mater private with him, a pity himself and the minister for badly managed health affairs do not spend a saturday night, sunday in the mid west regional hospital in limerick, thats the one that was downgraded twice, to upgrade the university hospital in cork.

well then thats where our minister for health should be treated, in the worst performing hospital, within the system she has created

Nijmegen

The failure to reform the HSE is simply the biggest example of the failure to take on the unions.

I think that forcing politicians to use public services would be a great idea.

We could also have them collect their salaries from social welfare offices.

Let them stand in line, meet the people they represent and stand there while the teller counts out a few grand in salary and expenses every week.

stanislaw

Nijmegen wrote: »

The failure to reform the HSE is simply the biggest example of the failure to take on the unions.

I think that forcing politicians to use public services would be a great idea.

We could also have them collect their salaries from social welfare offices.

Let them stand in line, meet the people they represent and stand there while the teller counts out a few grand in salary and expenses every week.

i think maybe that this is what this country needs, especially at the present time. Its so easy for them to talk of how they know that people are suffering, but if they had to meet and queue with them every week it might make it finally sink in what hardship they are causing and how their decisions effect real people

stanislaw

Nijmegen wrote: »

The failure to reform the HSE is simply the biggest example of the failure to take on the unions.


the unions problem is a strange one.
did you know that all of our TDs are members of the Impact trade union.

Rovi

Making the decision makers and managers accountable for the services under their care isn't an entirely new notion; back at the time of the impending Millennium Bug/Y2K frenzy, the Chinese government took a pragmatic approach to ensuring that their domestic airlines took the necessary precautions:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/01/16/world/world-briefing.html

CHINA: THE PERSONAL TOUCH -- China has given its airlines an incentive to get ready for the year 2000 computer bug, ordering airline chiefs to board their own flights next New Year's Day, The Financial Times of London reported. ''All the heads of the airlines have got to be in the air on January 1, 2000,'' said Zhao Bo, who is in charge of handling the Y2K problem. (Agence France-Presse)

djpbarry

stanislaw wrote: »

while i send my regrets to mary on the death of her parents, it still does not take away from the fact that our hospitals are a disgrace.

Are they? Compared to what?

stanislaw wrote: »

I think it really shows great confidence from our government that not one of them uses the public health system.

How do you know?

stanislaw wrote: »

thats most likely true, but i dont think there has been any improvment in the 8 years that MH has been the minister.

You sure about that? According to the OECD, cancer survival rates (for example) in Ireland have increased significantly in the last number of years, largely due to more effective screening programmes (breast and cervical, in particular). There has also been a decrease in the number of in-hospital deaths following heart attacks.

We have universal health care coverage. Life expectancy is about average. The number of physicians per capita is about average. However, the number of nurses per capita is about 60% above the OECD average (and, not surprisingly, they are among the best paid in the OECD). Average length of stay for acute care is below average.

Where we do lag behind is in access to equipment such as CT’s and MRI’s, hence the long waiting times for such examinations (perhaps a trimming of nurse numbers might free up the necessary funds?).

Furthermore, health expenditure per capita in Ireland is not particularly high – we lag behind several European countries (Denmark, Germany, Belgium, France, Austria, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Switzerland and Norway) while being only marginally higher than others (Iceland and Sweden).

So, all-in-all, it seems that for an “about average” per capita spend on health, we have an “about average” health care system.

All of the above statisitics can be verified using the OECD Health Statistics Portal.

stanislaw

Originally Posted by stanislaw
while i send my regrets to mary on the death of her parents, it still does not take away from the fact that our hospitals are a disgrace.


Are they? Compared to what?

do they need to be compared to anything ?? our system does not work. If you attend A&E you are hoping to be seen to as an emergency, 10hrs or more later does'nt seem like an emegency to me.
If you want a consultation, its takes you months to be seen, if you are lucky. If it turns out you have something serious like cancer that sort of delay in dianosis is fatal.
I think possibly when you actually get into the system/hospital your treatment is fine, but it takes far too long to get into it.

I think that trying to compare it to other health services is of no use.
Our health system should be something we are confident in and proud of.
At present ITS NOT !!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanislaw
I think it really shows great confidence from our government that not one of them uses the public health system.

How do you know?

well, can you name some.
I would reckon that our minister for finance uses high end health insurance, because there's no chance he would have received his cancer treatment so quick on the public service, He'd probably still be waiting for his test results or a referral to a consultant !

stanislaw

Rovi wrote: »

Making the decision makers and managers accountable for the services under their care isn't an entirely new notion; back at the time of the impending Millennium Bug/Y2K frenzy, the Chinese government took a pragmatic approach to ensuring that their domestic airlines took the necessary precautions:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/01/16/world/world-briefing.html

yes i heard of that (it was a great way to ensure things were done properly) and previous ideas before.
but it should be a demand we put on our politicians and senior politicians. because they take no notice of our complaints of bad service

stanislaw

djpbarry wrote: »

You sure about that? According to the OECD, cancer survival rates (for example) in Ireland have increased significantly in the last number of years, largely due to more effective screening programmes (breast and cervical, in particular). There has also been a decrease in the number of in-hospital deaths following heart attacks. QUOTE

all that is welcome and what you would expect from your health service !
but you have to be able to access these facilities within a reasonable time frame.

djpbarry wrote: »

We have universal health care coverage. Life expectancy is about average. The number of physicians per capita is about average. However, the number of nurses per capita is about 60% above the OECD average (and, not surprisingly, they are among the best paid in the OECD). Average length of stay for acute care is below average.[QUOTE

yes, we peobably do have universal health care.
Its unfortunate that so many people feel they need health insurance in able to get some sort semi-efficient healt care.
If you cant affoard health insurance, you have to wait !!
Is state health cover not one of the reasons we pay PRSI ??

djpbarry wrote: »

Where we do lag behind is in access to equipment such as CT’s and MRI’s, hence the long waiting times for such examinations (perhaps a trimming of nurse numbers might free up the necessary funds?).[QUOTE

There are far more problem groups within the HSE than just the nurses.!
And we do have very large investment in the HSE, is not this investment there for the purchase of and to provide access of such equipment. as well as the overall operation of the HSE

djpbarry wrote: »

Furthermore, health expenditure per capita in Ireland is not particularly high – we lag behind several European countries (Denmark, Germany, Belgium, France, Austria, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Switzerland and Norway) while being only marginally higher than others (Iceland and Sweden).

So, all-in-all, it seems that for an “about average” per capita spend on health, we have an “about average” health care system.

All of the above statisitics can be verified using the OECD Health Statistics Portal.

As we have seen , throwing money at the HSE does'nt seem to work.
The money needs to be targetted properly.
You could probably achieve much better results for a much lower spend if the Hse was run properly.
MY personal view is that there are too many bonuses and the salarys are too big for the various managers. But im sure i dont know the full story.

But our minister and overall government are all paid to solve these problems !!

statistics are great but they take a sterile view and while they provide valuable and much needed information, they dont always tell the full story.

astrofool

Can you quote properly if you reply?

The bulk of the cost in the HSE is on staff wages, not on top level manager salaries and bonuses.

It's a bit like blaming the politicians pay for our deficit, even when paying them nothing would be a drop in the ocean, what needs to be tackled are the wages of absolutely everyone in the public services, including TD's and managers.