RC church changes cannon law to prevent defection.

Nevyn

Given the rise in the numbers of people world wide opting out/defecting,
the Roman Catholic Church has amended the section of cannon law (their rules)
so that it is not longer possible to opt out/defect.

http://www.countmeout.ie/suspension/

Suspension of the Defection Process

In April of this year, the Catholic Church modified the Code of Canon Law to remove all references to the act of formal defection, the process used by those who wish to formally renounce their membership of the Church.

Since then, the Catholic Church in Ireland has been reflecting on the implications of this change for those who wish to leave the Catholic Church. Despite our requests for clarification, the Church have yet to reach a firm position on how or whether they will continue to accept requests for the annotation of the baptismal register.

In recent weeks we have been contacted by an increasing number of people whose defections have not been processed, due to the limbo created by this canon law amendment.

Because of this uncertainty, we have taken the decision to suspend the creation of declarations of defection via CountMeOut.ie.


Why has the Church made this change?

The first reference to the act of formal defection was introduced in the 1983 revision of the Code of Canon Law and was intended to create a special dispensation that absolved those who had defected from canon law pertaining to marriage. The Church considers canon law to hold for everyone who has been baptised; this change introduced a special case such that the marriages of estranged former-Catholics were now considered to be valid.

In practice, the Church found this difficult to interpret, as it was unclear what the process of formal defection actually entailed. So in 1997, a process of consultation began with the intention of removing these dispensations.

In parallel to this discussion, an issue arose in countries such as Germany, where citizens are required to pay a Church Tax unless they make a statement to the tax authorities. An annotated baptismal cert was sometimes requested for this purpose, resulting in a 2006 papal note that finally explained the process of defection in more detail. These are the steps we describe on CountMeOut.ie.

This position remained unchanged until November 2009, when the Vatican approved the document "Omnium in Mentem", removing the dispensations introduced in 1983 and with them all references to formal defection. This came into effect on April 9th 2010.

axer

Lol, looks like the numbers defecting rattled some bones.

MrStuffins

So it's just like another "Brotherhood" based in Italy.

Once you're in, you're in for life!

Galvasean

Could one accuse them of keeping one's soul hostage?

seamus

Is excommunication still an option?

Also for an institution which continually justifies its God based on the notion of "Free Will", they have a remarkable amount of contempt for it.

Kintarō Hattori

So essentially you can't 'leave' the church even if you wanted to?

Nevyn

Excommunication is a long and complicated process but if you have proof and are willing to badger them it can happen but getting a writ of excommunication can take anything from 6 months to 3 years or longer, it depends how badly they want shot of you.

Yes Kintarō Hattori that is pretty much what they are saying, unless you have joined another religion which they recognise and can submit paper work to them.

Wolfe Tone

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

So essentially you can't 'leave' the church even if you wanted to?

You can check out anytime you want, but you can never leave......

axer

Might be best to get baptised into another religion where you can get excommunicated easily.

Nevyn

axer wrote: »

Might be best to get baptised into another religion where you can get excommunicated easily.

Unfortunately a lot of people were too young to have a say and were baptised by their parents. Tbh this just makes me even more glad I didn't bow to pressure to get mine baptised.

Galvasean

What would be the best/quickest way for one to pis them off so much that they would excommunicate you? (that doesn't result in a criminal record of course)

Nevyn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latae_sententiae

There are things which make you automatically excommunicated and you are meant to go to the bishop and repent and get it sorted. But you are pursue that from the other angle and work to be formally excommunicated and the writ issued.

Galvasean

Thaedydal wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latae_sententiae

There are things which make you automatically excommunicated and you are meant to go to the bishop and repent and get it sorted. But you are pursue that from the other angle and work to be formally excommunicated and the writ issued.

'an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic'

Surely defecting counts as apostathy?

georgieporgy

Galvasean wrote: »

What would be the best/quickest way for one to pis them off so much that they would excommunicate you? (that doesn't result in a criminal record of course)

You fellows don't seem to fully understand the situation. It isn't that the church wants to keep you in so it can collect your money or feel good about having bigger numbers.

It's just that baptism is indelible. A bit like a bullet in the brain. Once done it's done. People convert to other religions all the time (or quit completely) but it doesn't negate the original baptism.

As for excommunication that's easy. Anyone who's has had an involvment in the act of abortion automatically excommunicates themselves. That's pretty common these days. There are other similar evils that will get you the required result also. But excommunication simply means you cannot receive some of the sacraments. You still remain in the church. :pac:

PeterIanStaker

Great. More madey-uppy canon law nonsense. How would it stand up against freedom of religion in a civil court?

robindch

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

So essentially you can't 'leave' the church even if you wanted to?

In the church's terms, no you can't. It claims that there is an "ontological bond" formed by the act of baptism (which can be done remotely, btw, and even by an atheist) which it claims can never be broken.

In the church's terms, once you're in, you're in until you die or you're excommunicated.

MagicMarker

Galvasean wrote: »

What would be the best/quickest way for one to pis them off so much that they would excommunicate you? (that doesn't result in a criminal record of course)

Rape some children... oh wait, sorry, that doesn't work either.

PeterIanStaker

georgieporgy wrote: »

It's just that baptism is indelible

Says who?
Them?
So, from their POV, pouring some H2O over a two-week old's head and throwing a few shapes is irreversible?

seamus

Galvasean wrote: »

'an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic'

Surely defecting counts as apostathy?

From digging further, it appears that one cannot define themselves as apostate, someone else (i.e. the church) has to do it for you, at which point you are automatically excommunicated.

Looking through the list of things you can do, it seems pretty simple to get excommunicated without upsetting a lot of people:

1. Go to Mass.
2. Receive eucharist and pocket it.
3. Get video camera.
4. Take video of you burning the eucharist in a fire.
5. Email to local bishop.

mailforkev

"Some instances in which one incurs interdict latae sententiae include the following:

• using physical force against a bishop"

So if I kick this fella up the arse I should be fine then?

http://www.ferns.ie/Bishop.shtml

Turtwig

Isn't making it really bloody hard to leave one of the attributes of a cult?

Beruthiel

Thaedydal wrote: »

Given the rise in the numbers of people world wide opting out/defecting,
the Roman Catholic Church has amended the section of cannon law (their rules)
so that it is not longer possible to opt out/defect.

Wow. That's pretty outrageous!

axer

Thaedydal wrote: »

Unfortunately a lot of people were too young to have a say and were baptised by their parents. Tbh this just makes me even more glad I didn't bow to pressure to get mine baptised.

No I meant that people who want to leave the church as an adult could get baptised into another religion and then leave the new religion. I'm glad I defected a few years back.

Doctor DooM

georgieporgy wrote: »

You fellows don't seem to fully understand the situation. It isn't that the church wants to keep you in so it can collect your money or feel good about having bigger numbers.

Yes, the Catholic church has no interest in accumulating profit.



I read an interesting book once which tied this indeleble Catholicness to the beginnings of the inquisition, because people outside the faith realised if they got baptised they could then go about their own business in peace from persecution from Rome

Must dig it up, memory is a bit hazy on it.

MrStuffins

mailforkev wrote: »

"Some instances in which one incurs interdict latae sententiae include the following:

• using physical force against a bishop"

So if I kick this fella up the arse I should be fine then?

http://www.ferns.ie/Bishop.shtml

Nevyn

georgieporgy wrote: »

You fellows don't seem to fully understand the situation. It isn't that the church wants to keep you in so it can collect your money or feel good about having bigger numbers.

It's the numbers game they can claim to represent a majority of the country if they use the numbers of people baptised.

georgieporgy wrote: »

It's just that baptism is indelible. A bit like a bullet in the brain. Once done it's done. People convert to other religions all the time (or quit completely) but it doesn't negate the original baptism.

I disagree with that, infact so do they and if you leave and join formerly another judaic religion you have to re join the RC church and be re baptised.

georgieporgy wrote: »

As for excommunication that's easy. Anyone who's has had an involvment in the act of abortion automatically excommunicates themselves. That's pretty common these days. There are other similar evils that will get you the required result also. But excommunication simply means you cannot receive some of the sacraments. You still remain in the church. :pac:

Automatic excommunication is easy, turning that into actual excommunication so you get a writ of excommunication is not easy, trust me I know. Mine is lodged with my will so there is no way I can be given a catholic funeral.

aidan24326

Just more 'canon law' nonsense which really doesn't bother me that much. It's obvious that people are turning away from the church in droves and artificially propping up the numbers by disallowing defection won't change that. The RC church here will become in time much smaller and less influential than it has been.

And in fairness the pope himself has intimated that he would prefer a situation where the church was smaller but more sincere to its core faith, rather than the situation that currently exists where you have large numbers of people who would call themselves catholic but without actually doing much to practise as such, the a-la-carte variety.

Turtwig

mailforkev wrote: »

"Some instances in which one incurs interdict latae sententiae include the following:

• using physical force against a bishop"

So if I kick this fella up the arse I should be fine then?

http://www.ferns.ie/Bishop.shtml

Why a bishop?
Is kicking priests,nuns, lay people etc. ok then?

Vatican : Disregarding State laws since 1922.

jayzusb.christ

This came into effect on April 9th 2010.

That was my birthday. Bastards.

Turtwig

jayzusb.christ wrote: »

That was my birthday. Bastards.

I have to say you are a highly advanced human for your age.:D

optogirl

axer wrote: »

Lol, looks like the numbers defecting rattled some bones.

glad I got out early

jayzusb.christ

I have to say you are a highly advanced human for your age.

Genetic modification and memory implants, you know how we godless families rear kids :pac:

legspin

mailforkev wrote: »

"Some instances in which one incurs interdict latae sententiae include the following:

• using physical force against a bishop"

So if I kick this fella up the arse I should be fine then?

http://www.ferns.ie/Bishop.shtml

Sounds like a decent excuse to go and beat the sh1t out of a few of them then ...

Rabble Rabble

I read an interesting book once which tied this indeleble Catholicness to the beginnings of the inquisition, because people outside the faith realised if they got baptised they could then go about their own business in peace from persecution from Rome

I personally cant forgive the inquisition for what it did to Ireland. I just can't.

5uspect

Thaedydal wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latae_sententiae

There are things which make you automatically excommunicated and you are meant to go to the bishop and repent and get it sorted. But you are pursue that from the other angle and work to be formally excommunicated and the writ issued.

Can you do more than one? I like a challenge.

Jimmy Bottlehead

I managed to defect sucessfully about three months ago, seems that even if this is only in effect since April, it didn't get all the way through the grapevine.

Sparks

seamus wrote: »

From digging further, it appears that one cannot define themselves as apostate, someone else (i.e. the church) has to do it for you, at which point you are automatically excommunicated.

Looking through the list of things you can do, it seems pretty simple to get excommunicated without upsetting a lot of people:

1. Go to Mass.
2. Receive eucharist and pocket it.
3. Get video camera.
4. Take video of you burning the eucharist in a fire.
5. Email to local bishop.

Flashmob anyone?

Sparks

mailforkev wrote: »

"Some instances in which one incurs interdict latae sententiae include the following:

• using physical force against a bishop"

So if I kick this fella up the arse I should be fine then?

http://www.ferns.ie/Bishop.shtml

I've been looking for a Bishop Brennan for at least a year for just that purpose...
(I mean, defecting is well and good, but a writ of excommunication for kicking bishop brennan up the arse, now that makes for a conversation piece to hang on the wall at home).

axer

Sparks wrote: »

I've been looking for a Bishop Brennan for at least a year for just that purpose...
(I mean, defecting is well and good, but a writ of excommunication for kicking bishop brennan up the arse, now that makes for a conversation piece to hang on the wall at home).

A pic up on the wall doing it would be even better!

Nevyn

seamus wrote: »

From digging further, it appears that one cannot define themselves as apostate, someone else (i.e. the church) has to do it for you, at which point you are automatically excommunicated.

Looking through the list of things you can do, it seems pretty simple to get excommunicated without upsetting a lot of people:

1. Go to Mass.
2. Receive eucharist and pocket it.
3. Get video camera.
4. Take video of you burning the eucharist in a fire.
5. Email to local bishop.

That would also be an intresting test of the new blasphemy laws.

Wolfe Tone

seamus wrote: »

From digging further, it appears that one cannot define themselves as apostate, someone else (i.e. the church) has to do it for you, at which point you are automatically excommunicated.

Looking through the list of things you can do, it seems pretty simple to get excommunicated without upsetting a lot of people:

1. Go to Mass.
2. Receive eucharist and pocket it.
3. Get video camera.
4. Take video of you burning the eucharist in a fire.
5. Email to local bishop.

Thats in pretty bad taste tbh, and if that got found out it would upset a lot of people.

seamus

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Thats in pretty bad taste tbh, and if that got found out it would upset a lot of people.

It would be the responsibility of the bishop surely. If he chose to release it, then he is the one upsetting a lot of people.

I don't see where "taste" comes into it. It's a piece of edible paper which you are burning. Sure, some people will view it as sacreligious, but if you're not publishing it, then where's the problem?

Wolfe Tone

seamus wrote: »

It would be the responsibility of the bishop surely. If he chose to release it, then he is the one upsetting a lot of people.

I don't see where "taste" comes into it. It's a piece of edible paper which you are burning. Sure, some people will view it as sacreligious, but if you're not publishing it, then where's the problem?

So by your logic if it is not publicized it is ok? Would you do it if everyone would know about it?

Sparks

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So by your logic if it is not publicized it is ok? Would you do it if everyone would know about it?

If it is not publicised, it can't count as blasphemy; and sending the video to one person (the bishop) is not publishing as there is a reasonable expectation of privacy involved.
Ironically, were the bishop to then send it round to people, it's him doing the publication and you could argue it should be him being tried for blasphemy.


But on the more moral question of whether or not you should burn the Eucharist as a means of triggering excommunication in lieu of defection and risk upsetting a lot of people; I think once we let priests and nuns get away with raping and killing children, we pretty much opened the door to burning edible paper on camera.

jayzusb.christ

To return to the OP's point for a second, this change is hardly a victory for the RCC. If they have to lock their 'flock' in to stop them escaping en masse, they must be getting worried about their future. All they'll end up with is a lot of baptism certificates and very few believers.

MagicMarker

Which would be worse, setting jebus on fire or having him with some salt and a coke?

Wolfe Tone

Sparks wrote: »

If it is not publicised, it can't count as blasphemy; and sending the video to one person (the bishop) is not publishing as there is a reasonable expectation of privacy involved.
Ironically, were the bishop to then send it round to people, it's him doing the publication and you could argue it should be him being tried for blasphemy.


But on the more moral question of whether or not you should burn the Eucharist as a means of triggering excommunication in lieu of defection and risk upsetting a lot of people; I think once we let priests and nuns get away with raping and killing children, we pretty much opened the door to burning edible paper on camera.

Personally I would not do something I would not be comfortable doing if others knew about it. Just my 2cents.

Kick the bishop in the arse instead.

seamus

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Personally I would not do something I would not be comfortable doing if others knew about it. Just my 2cents.

I would have no particular problem with people knowing that I've done it, but I would have no desire to rub their noses in it.

Exactly the same as I would be happy for all and sundry to know that girl-on-top reverse cowboy is my favourite position*, but I'm not going to film it and stick it up on youtube.

The only reason I suggest filming it is because I doubt the bishop would take my word for it and excommunicate me.

*It's not, for the record

axer

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Personally I would not do something I would not be comfortable doing if others knew about it. Just my 2cents.

Kick the bishop in the arse instead.

I would think videoing the burning of the eucharist is a better idea as it doesn't involve violence - its more "christian" :pac:

we'llallhavetea_old

i am sickened by this. coincidentally, i only printed off my count me out form last night. :mad:

so thats that then? even if i'm excommuniated i'm still counted as RC?

axer

we'llallhavetea wrote: »

i am sickened by this. coincidentally, i only printed off my count me out form last night. :mad:

so thats that then? even if i'm excommuniated i'm still counted as RC?

It may be argued that the Census is the only true count that is officially acted upon but still I don't want the f'uckers thinking I am one of their sheep.