National Pension Reserve Fund

westtip

The NPRF supposedly our reserve to pay bloated and inflated public sector pensions in the future appears to be our life boat (ney life jacket), Where can you get information on the fund, what it is invested in and how it is performing.

How exactly has it been performing in the last two years - when most world markets have gone from zero to hero. Or was all of our NPRF tied up in our small provincial banks? How much of the NPRF for example was in the once gloriuos shares of irish banks?

Anyone got any half decent information on this one.

Mr Benevolent

From the NPRF website:

The Fund’s directed investment in Bank of Ireland now consists of:
1,906 million units of ordinary stock valued at their current market price (36.5% of the bank’s ordinary stock in issue); and
1,837 million units of preference stock held at their issue price of €1.00 paying an annual dividend of 10.25%.


The Fund’s directed investment in AIB now consists of:
3,500 million units of preference shares held at their issue price of €1.00 paying an annual dividend of 8%.
198 million ordinary shares valued at their current market price (18.3% of the bank’s ordinary stock in issue).
Warrants to purchase 294 million ordinary shares in AIB (21.4% of the shares on issue after exercise of the warrants).

In other words an enormous loss from the banking investment.

Riskymove

westtip wrote: »

The NPRF supposedly our reserve to pay bloated and inflated public sector pensions in the future .

and all OAP and other pensions to private sector workers

rumour

Confab wrote: »

From the NPRF website:
In other words an enormous loss from the banking investment.

Do you know what % of the fund is in Irish Banks?
I have a peculiar feeling the NPRF is intrinsically linked to our need to bail out the banks.
Excuse my apparent laziness but the link is not working for me just now!

Citizen_Cutback

westtip wrote: »

The NPRF supposedly our reserve to pay bloated and inflated public sector pensions in the future appears to be our life boat...

1/3rd of the NPRF is to be allocated to help pay PS pensions from 2025.

2/3rds of the NPRF is to be allocated to help pay PRSI pensions from 2025.

Godge

westtip wrote: »

The NPRF supposedly our reserve to pay bloated and inflated public sector pensions in the future appears to be our life boat (ney life jacket), Where can you get information on the fund, what it is invested in and how it is performing.

How exactly has it been performing in the last two years - when most world markets have gone from zero to hero. Or was all of our NPRF tied up in our small provincial banks? How much of the NPRF for example was in the once gloriuos shares of irish banks?

Anyone got any half decent information on this one.

Funnily enought, before the crisis and when it was made invest in Irish banks to save them, over 90% of the fund was invested overseas as Michael Somers et al saw little value in investment in Ireland.

Paulzx

westtip wrote: »

The NPRF supposedly our reserve to pay bloated and inflated public sector pensions in the future appears to be our life boat

Do you pay prsi?

If the answer is Yes you'll get your whack out of it also.

The level of ignorance is astounding when the words "public sector" enter any discussion

Scarab80

Confab wrote: »

From the NPRF website:



In other words an enormous loss from the banking investment.

Actually the 7bn put into BOI and AIB is worth 7.4bn at todays market prices.

faolteam

Pension reserve fund : Can anyone tell me is this money been taken by the government from our private pensions with the proposal of paying it back at a later date,???

tenchi-fan

rumour wrote: »

Do you know what % of the fund is in Irish Banks?
I have a peculiar feeling the NPRF is intrinsically linked to our need to bail out the banks.

It's the other way around. The pension fund was invested in some bluechip companies and some emerging markets... it was plundered to bail out the banks. Now it's being plundered again.

tenchi-fan

faolteam wrote: »

Pension reserve fund : Can anyone tell me is this money been taken by the government from our private pensions with the proposal of paying it back at a later date,???

It isn't.

However, Hungary is planning on nationalising private pension funds - people can opt out but they would be disqualified from receiving a state pension. I would not be surprised if the Irish government followed suit.

westtip

Paulzx wrote: »

Do you pay prsi?

If the answer is Yes you'll get your whack out of it also.

The level of ignorance is astounding when the words "public sector" enter any discussion

Answer youf first question yes.

As the NPRS is now being plundered, for both bloated PS pensions and state pension it means that all pensions are going to be effected. In 2025 when there will be a funding shortfall cos of what's happening today - what will get cut, PS pensions or standard state pensions. Anyone in the PS now aged 30 - 45 would do well to start up a private fund to subvent themselves - Cos they ain't going to be getting the kind of deals the current generation have - in fact this generation of PS workers - those retiring now and those retired in the last five years - are the laughing generation. Laughing at their childrens generation coming up behind them. They simply never had it so good, and are now milking the state.

Anyway glad to hear that the fund has been invested outside this piffling little economy.

ei.sdraob

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

1/3rd of the NPRF is to be allocated to help pay PS pensions from 2025.

2/3rds of the NPRF is to be allocated to help pay PRSI pensions from 2025.

Thats obscene in itself

the public sector does not compromise 1/3rd of the workforce yet they get a 1/3rd of the pension kitty.

Paulzx

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Thats obscene in itself

the public sector does not compromise 1/3rd of the workforce yet they get a 1/3rd of the pension kitty.

A private sector worker will have paid an A prsi contribution to get his state pension.


A public sector worker will have paid

1...an A prsi contribution

2....his 6.5% superannuation contribution

3....his pension levy contribution(averaging about 7.5%)


Slight difference.......

Paulzx

westtip wrote: »

Answer youf first question yes.

As the NPRS is now being plundered, for both bloated PS pensions and state pension it means that all pensions are going to be effected. In 2025 when there will be a funding shortfall cos of what's happening today - what will get cut, PS pensions or standard state pensions. Anyone in the PS now aged 30 - 45 would do well to start up a private fund to subvent themselves - Cos they ain't going to be getting the kind of deals the current generation have - .

The fact you can hardly control your glee is actually quite sick

Tipp Man

I thought McCreevy said if i have it i'll spend it?? The lying bas###d stashed a rainy day fund. Off with his head

astrofool

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

1/3rd of the NPRF is to be allocated to help pay PS pensions from 2025.

2/3rds of the NPRF is to be allocated to help pay PRSI pensions from 2025.

Because our workforce is 1/3 public sector workers, isn't it?

ei.sdraob

Paulzx wrote: »

A private sector worker will have paid an A prsi contribution to get his state pension.


A public sector worker will have paid

1...an A prsi contribution

2....his 6.5% superannuation contribution

3....his pension levy contribution(averaging about 7.5%)


Slight difference.......

So you want to claim the public sector contributes 1/3 of the money into the pensions fund?

prove it

Tipp Man

astrofool wrote: »

Because our workforce is 1/3 public sector workers, isn't it?

ahh no

about half that, Somewhere around 1/6

Paulzx

ei.sdraob wrote: »

So you want to claim the public sector contributes 1/3 of the money into the pensions fund?

prove it

Did i say that? Can you read?

It stands to reason that a member of the public service will pay more into it. Individually they will receive more out of it.

Your sensationalist comment on the percentages going to each sector of course convienantly ignores this.

I have no idea of what the actual percentage of contibutions are made by the differing sectors. I am not a mathamaticain or economist and have no idea how to work it out. This doesn't mean that my point is not valid irrespective of whetheryou want to ignore it.

If you wish to let your predjudice conviently allow you to disregard valid points well so be it.

westtip

Paulzx wrote: »

The fact you can hardly control your glee is actually quite sick

You have no idea about how sick I feel about it. I have no sense of glee about the total and utter sickening way in which this economy has been managed.

It will do us all good to have a period of reality - paying for example "county managers" in excess of 150K to manage such small administration units as our tiny little county councils this kind of money is actually plain stupid. Paying primary school teachers in excess of 60K for nine months work is equally stupid - there is an easy way to halve classroom sizes - half teachers pay and double the number of teachers, its pretty basic arithmetic.

I am not gleeful about the ruination the public sector unions have bought on this country nor am I gleeful about the total and utter ruination incompetent governance has bought on the country.

Pal I am not gleeful I am sick to death of the waste and incompetence from Government and the public sector.

Paulzx

westtip wrote: »

You have no idea about how sick I feel about it. I have no sense of glee about the total and utter sickening way in which this economy has been managed.

It will do us all good to have a period of reality - paying for example "county managers" in excess of 150K to manage such small administration units as our tiny little county councils this kind of money is actually plain stupid. Paying primary school teachers in excess of 60K for nine months work is equally stupid - there is an easy way to halve classroom sizes - half teachers pay and double the number of teachers, its pretty basic arithmetic.

I am not gleeful about the ruination the public sector unions have bought on this country nor am I gleeful about the total and utter ruination incompetent governance has bought on the country.

Pal I am not gleeful I am sick to death of the waste and incompetence from Government and the public sector.

You have the rhetoric spiel off to a tee now. Halve pay, double teachers, unions blah. Its easy to keep ranting. Your ranting is the same as the union leaders you claim to despise. It's just from the other side of the fence. You're no different to them.

Everything is the fault of unions. I know, sure no one else milked the country dry.

We will probably never solve the problems we have. The main reason is the entrenched views of hardliners like you on both sides who will never accept any arguement that doesn't suit you.

I am not your Pal either

westtip

Paulzx wrote: »

You have the rhetoric spiel off to a tee now. Halve pay, double teachers, unions blah. Its easy to keep ranting. Your ranting is the same as the union leaders you claim to despise. It's just from the other side of the fence. You're no different to them.

Everything is the fault of unions. I know, sure no one else milked the country dry.

We will probably never solve the problems we have. The main reason is the entrenched views of hardliners like you on both sides who will never accept any arguement that doesn't suit you.

I am not your Pal either

Hilarious stuff. Nearly fell off my chair laughing. sorry Pal. the country is broke we were led into this abyss by incompetent morons like Bertie Aherne. The L'oreal generation are going to have to learn - they are not worth it. I am not blaming the unions they did a great job for their members but then again with senior civil servants netotiating the social partnership twaddle what did you expect. It was all built on sand and now its collapsing and the tide will wash away the farce of Croke park and all that goes with it.

ei.sdraob

Paulzx wrote: »

Did i say that? Can you read?

It stands to reason that a member of the public service will pay more into it. Individually they will receive more out of it.

Your sensationalist comment on the percentages going to each sector of course convienantly ignores this.

I have no idea of what the actual percentage of contibutions are made by the differing sectors. I am not a mathamaticain or economist and have no idea how to work it out. This doesn't mean that my point is not valid irrespective of whetheryou want to ignore it.

If you wish to let your predjudice conviently allow you to disregard valid points well so be it.

the public sector is 1/6th of workforce

yet they get 1/3rd of the pensions kitty


do the public sector pay double the private sector into the pot? no!

hence its obscene

jimmycrackcorm

Tipp Man wrote: »

I thought McCreevy said if i have it i'll spend it?? The lying bas###d stashed a rainy day fund. Off with his head

Ironically it's the one thing McCreevey did best - he actually brought in a bill in 2001 to ensure that the goverment put a certain percentage aside each year into the NPRF. There were also conditions that it couldn't be raided but these are now being ignored.

Fat_Fingers

Tipp Man wrote: »

I thought McCreevy said if i have it i'll spend it?? The lying bas###d stashed a rainy day fund. Off with his head

lol

Paulzx

westtip wrote: »

Hilarious stuff. Nearly fell off my chair laughing. sorry Pal. the country is broke we were led into this abyss by incompetent morons like Bertie Aherne. The L'oreal generation are going to have to learn - they are not worth it. I am not blaming the unions they did a great job for their members but then again with senior civil servants netotiating the social partnership twaddle what did you expect. It was all built on sand and now its collapsing and the tide will wash away the farce of Croke park and all that goes with it.

Equally hilarious. Different words. Same rant........again.....and again....and again.

I'm not going to react to the petty provacation that the repatative use of the word Pal is supposed to elicit. The Mods have been trying to get a handle on the rubbish around here and i'm not going to add to their problem.

HarryPotter41

westtip wrote: »

You have no idea about how sick I feel about it. I have no sense of glee about the total and utter sickening way in which this economy has been managed.

It will do us all good to have a period of reality - paying for example "county managers" in excess of 150K to manage such small administration units as our tiny little county councils this kind of money is actually plain stupid. Paying primary school teachers in excess of 60K for nine months work is equally stupid - there is an easy way to halve classroom sizes - half teachers pay and double the number of teachers, its pretty basic arithmetic.

I am not gleeful about the ruination the public sector unions have bought on this country nor am I gleeful about the total and utter ruination incompetent governance has bought on the country.

Pal I am not gleeful I am sick to death of the waste and incompetence from Government and the public sector.

So lets pay educated people half the wages they are currently on, right. So thats them off to do private sector work where they will probably get paid more. And the teachers will then come from.... lets see.... Narnia?

Paulzx

ei.sdraob wrote: »

the public sector is 1/6th of workforce

yet they get 1/3rd of the pensions kitty


do the public sector pay double the private sector into the pot? no!

hence its obscene

If you want it boil it down to the simplistic arguement you are trying to put forward....

Take 2 workers. 1 public sector. 1 private sector. Both earning the same salary.

They both pay prsi between 4-8% depending on salary.

The Public sector worker also pays on average another 14% of his salary into the pot. Therefore on an individual one to one level he is paying double.

Now i'm not stupid enough to think that there is no other factors at play here.
There are obvioulsy more private sector workers than public.

My basic arguement is that it is wrong to say that 1/6 of the workforce are claiming 1/3 of the pot without taling into acount that individually they contribute more.

Personally, there probably won't be a shilling left in it when i retire:(

Citizen_Cutback

ei.sdraob wrote: »

the public sector is 1/6th of workforce

yet they get 1/3rd of the pensions kitty


do the public sector pay double the private sector into the pot? no!

hence its obscene

Your post is disingenuous.

If you are attempting to troll you should at least make an effort to conceal your intentions.

If you are associated with boards.ie, as you insinuate, you should be ashamed of you conduct on this thread.

McTigs

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

So lets pay educated people half the wages they are currently on, right. So thats them off to do private sector work where they will probably get paid more. And the teachers will then come from.... lets see.... Narnia?

i somehow don't think there would be a shortage.

Exactly what in the private sector would they skip off to?

westtip

Paulzx wrote: »

I
Personally, there probably won't be a shilling left in it when i retire:(

Oh really, so you have woken up to what is going on out there.

yes i suggest you start funding a private pension as saver/insurance. You can do it through AVCs and manage your fund if you want through a number of providers. You will of course get full tax relief (well only at 20% from tuesday probably), but at least you will be learning what the rest of us have to do. And who knows a fairy godmother may come and get us out of this hole. If you have more than 15 years to go to retirement I woudl be very very worried about relying on a PS pension based on final salary (or indeed average salary).

The money won't be there!!!!:D

Paulzx

westtip wrote: »

Oh really, so you have woken up to what is going on out there.

yes i suggest you start funding a private pension as saver/insurance. You can do it through AVCs and manage your fund if you want through a number of providers. You will of course get full tax relief (well only at 20% from tuesday probably), but at least you will be learning what the rest of us have to do. And who knows a fairy godmother may come and get us out of this hole. If you have more than 15 years to go to retirement I woudl be very very worried about relying on a PS pension based on final salary (or indeed average salary).

The money won't be there!!!!:D

I wouldn't be able to afford that seeing as i'm already paying a compulsory 14% of my salary above you.

I don't need a fairy godmother to learn anything about reality. The area i work in exposes me to much more reality than you could ever hope to see.

Keep hold of the bitterness. It will keep you warm this winter.

Over and out with you on this thread

ei.sdraob

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

Your post is disingenuous.

If you are attempting to troll you should at least make an effort to conceal your intentions.

If you are associated with boards.ie, as you insinuate, you should be ashamed of you conduct on this thread.

What is disingenuous about my post?

the public sector are getting a much larger share of the pensions reserve than they pay in

yet another example of the public sector having carved themselves a nice cozy package at expense of the rest of the workforce.

westtip

Paulzx wrote: »

I wouldn't be able to afford that seeing as i'm already paying a compulsory 14% of my salary above you.

I don't need a fairy godmother to learn anything about reality. The area i work in exposes me to much more reality than you could ever hope to see.

Keep hold of the bitterness. It will keep you warm this winter.

Over and out with you on this thread

Try self employment - you might find you haven't got the luxury of having the spare cash to make 1.4% never mind 14% contributions to your pension.

Paulzx

westtip wrote: »

Try self employment - you might find you haven't got the luxury of having the spare cash to make 1.4% never mind 14% contributions to your pension.

I made the decision not to.

You made your choices

RobbieTheRobber

westtip wrote: »

Try self employment - you might find you haven't got the luxury of having the spare cash to make 1.4% never mind 14% contributions to your pension.

Thats a very broad and I would assume inaccurate statement!

Are you suggesting no self-employed people can afford pensions?

Funny my two brothers seem to have pension schemes and I believe they are self employed but i can ring them and check if you like.


BTW Im not ringing them and making grand sweeping but innaccurate statements is helpful how?

HarryPotter41

McTigs wrote: »

i somehow don't think there would be a shortage.

Exactly what in the private sector would they skip off to?

Highly educated people are always in demand, especially in down times because they will always be the first pulled for second interviews in any job.

HarryPotter41

ei.sdraob wrote: »

What is disingenuous about my post?

the public sector are getting a much larger share of the pensions reserve than they pay in

yet another example of the public sector having carved themselves a nice cozy package at expense of the rest of the workforce.

The exact same could be said of someone paying a prsi contribution and then claiming a contributory pension, they claim much more in pension than they ever contributed in prsi, but then again, you couldn't public service bash with those sums.

Citizen_Cutback

ei.sdraob wrote: »

What is disingenuous about my post?

the public sector are getting a much larger share of the pensions reserve than they pay in

yet another example of the public sector having carved themselves a nice cozy package at expense of the rest of the workforce.

More idiocy! You need to return to 1st base.

The NPRF was established with the proceeds of the Eircom flotation which was supplemented with 1% of GDP/GNP (not sure which) on an annual basis. Nobody has contributed directly to the fund.

Both the PS pensions and PRSI pensions are paid out of separate Pay-As-You-Go funds.

Some civil servants pay a low rate of PRSI and have no entitlement to a Contributory Old Age Pension whereas those paying the higher rate of PRSI are so entitled.

PS pensions are currently funded to a level of approximately 80% by contributions from currently serving members.

To bring you up to date: The current Government intend to liquidate the NPRF for all intents and purposes to finance the Banks a little bit more...

Tigger

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Highly educated people are always in demand, especially in down times because they will always be the first pulled for second interviews in any job.

are you refering to teachers?

HarryPotter41

Tigger wrote: »

are you refering to teachers?

Yes

westtip

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Yes

There is a difference between highly educated and highly intelligent or highly able.

A teacher may well be highly educated - to teach.

Place a teacher in the commercial world? I would rather have a Moor Street Trader.

westtip

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Thats a very broad and I would assume inaccurate statement!

Are you suggesting no self-employed people can afford pensions?

Funny my two brothers seem to have pension schemes and I believe they are self employed but i can ring them and check if you like.


BTW Im not ringing them and making grand sweeping but innaccurate statements is helpful how?

Individual cases are not the issue. There are plenty of self employed people out there struggling as their clients go broke, or cut back on spend, or don't pay their bills, or the cash flow hits their business. For these people pension contributions are not on the agenda at the moment.

RobbieTheRobber

westtip wrote: »

Individual cases are not the issue. There are plenty of self employed people out there struggling as their clients go broke, or cut back on spend, or don't pay their bills, or the cash flow hits their business. For these people pension contributions are not on the agenda at the moment.

Thank you for the superb insight into the lives of people who are struggling economically, Im sure we could add many more things to a pension to which they may not have a current interest in.

RobbieTheRobber

westtip wrote: »

There is a difference between highly educated and highly intelligent or highly able.

Isnt this true in every walk of life?

A teacher may well be highly educated - to teach.

Indeed its good we educate our teachers to teach, training them to be plumbers wouldnt be of great benefit, or would it?

Place a teacher in the commercial world? I would rather have a Moor Street Trader

First of what a silly generalisation. Im sure there are many people who begun life as a teacher and proceeded into other things. Likewise many people have had success in other areas and then gone into teaching. Many of my IS lecturers in trinity were working and teaching, and some of those who only lectured were very highly regarded in the business world.
So your statement to the effect that they cant function outside of a teaching role is a complete hoax.

HarryPotter41

westtip wrote: »

There is a difference between highly educated and highly intelligent or highly able.

A teacher may well be highly educated - to teach.

Place a teacher in the commercial world? I would rather have a Moor Street Trader.

Whar a terrible sweeping statement that I am looking forward to you now backing up with multiple examples. One of my friends teaches, went back to do a masters - he also keeps going a very successful video making business on the side, and before you make yet another sweeping statement with no foundation - the business does not interfere with his teaching in any way, shape or form.

Also before you give out about the ability of teachers, learn to spell Moore Street, just makes the whole thing look daft.

micro_dot

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Whar a terrible sweeping statement that I am looking forward to you now backing up with multiple examples....
Also before you give out about the ability of teachers, learn to spell Moore Street, just makes the whole thing look daft.

Classic teacher put-down. Play the ball, not the man. If we had fewer fouls and more played fair, we wouldn't be in a mess now, would we?

Hmmm?

HarryPotter41

micro_dot wrote: »

Classic teacher put-down. Play the ball, not the man. If we had fewer fouls and more played fair, we wouldn't be in a mess now, would we?

Hmmm?

A classic teacher put down?? Does that mean that you assume I am a teacher?? And the man was played before that, by the sweeping statement about teachers.

Anonymous1987

westtip wrote: »

The NPRF supposedly our reserve to pay bloated and inflated public sector pensions in the future appears to be our life boat (ney life jacket), Where can you get information on the fund, what it is invested in and how it is performing.

How exactly has it been performing in the last two years - when most world markets have gone from zero to hero. Or was all of our NPRF tied up in our small provincial banks? How much of the NPRF for example was in the once gloriuos shares of irish banks?

Anyone got any half decent information on this one.

According to this NTMA annual report (page 30 and 31) the NPRF has obtained a return of 2.6% per annum since inception and an 11.6% return in 2009 primarily attributable to equity investments particular those in emerging markets. If the recapitalisation of the banks is excluded the return is 20.6% for 2009 :eek:. Too bad €12.5bn of the fund will now be used to contribute to the bailout package.

HarryPotter41

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

According to this NTMA annual report (page 30 and 31) the NPRF has obtained a return of 2.6% per annum since inception and an 11.6% return in 2009 primarily attributable to equity investments particular those in emerging markets. If the recapitalisation of the banks is excluded the return is 20.6% for 2009 :eek:. Too bad €12.5bn of the fund will now be used to contribute to the bailout package.

It was an incredibly well managed fun so it is a shame that it is having to be used this way, and as it grew its returns would have been larger too.