Raw milk

MingulayJohnny

Hey does anybody here know where I could get raw milk in the Dublin\Wicklow area?.

rubadub

Its illegal to sell it. I heard of some people getting it direct from farmers, or "under the counter" in farmers markets.

Wantobe

I grew up on it, and still have it every time I go home for a visit but doubt you'll find any dairy farmer to buy it from- the risks are too great. I saw a report one time of the risks from unpasteurised milk- I dunno how I'm still living.:P

Corsendonk

This is an extract from Kansas State Uni from 2009 of an FSAI article FSAI, Vol 11, Issue 5 on raw milk drinking in Ireland. Anyone interested in food safety check out the KSU website, it has an amazing newsletter system of updates from around the world. I posted the whole article to highlight the great risks of consuming raw milk. Cheese made from raw milk should also be labelled that it may contain Listeria.

A small number of people continue to drink raw milk in Ireland contrary to the advice of food safety and public health professionals. Advocates of raw milk consumption claim additional nutritional qualities, taste and health benefits as reasons for this practice. However, science-based data to substantiate these claims are limited. The risk to health from drinking raw milk has been known for well over a hundred years. Yet, today, illness linked to raw milk consumption continues to be reported from many parts of the world. A range of pathogens are involved. Among the most notable are Campylobacter spp., E. coli O157:H7, Listeria monocytogenes and Salmonella spp. These can have serious consequences for health, particularly in vulnerable groups such as children, older people, people in poor health and pregnant women.
It is very easy for harmful bacteria to get into raw milk, either directly in the case of mastitis or from environmental contamination in the dairy during milking. Once contaminated, raw milk is a perfect environment for harmful bugs to grow and proliferate. Pasteurisation is an effective method of killing harmful bacteria and rendering milk safe to drink.
In the United States, several milk-borne disease outbreaks have occurred over the past ten years which have been traced to the consumption of raw unpasteurised milk. One of the most recent outbreaks involving Campylobacter jejuni caused illness in 35 people, most of whom were children. In July of this year, three Swiss children suffered from Staphylococcus aureus intoxication following the consumption of raw goat’s milk. In Germany, raw milk consumption by children during visits to farms resulted in serious long term illness from infections with E. coli O157:H7.
In Ireland in 2005, drinking raw milk on a dairy farm was linked to a family outbreak of tuberculosis, with the disease having a very severe impact on the health of two young children. While the likelihood of acquiring tuberculosis from the consumption of raw milk is very low, it nevertheless remains a distinct possibility, as the herd incidence of bovine tuberculosis is reported to be around 5%. There is a greater possibility of infection with E. coli O157:H7 or verocytoxin producing E. coli (VTEC) from the consumption of raw milk.
Prior to 2006, Ireland had national legislation which prohibited the sale of raw cow’s milk. However, in 2006, this national legislation was rescinded with the introduction of new EU hygiene legislation. Nonetheless, this EU legislation allows a Member State to choose to prohibit or restrict the sale of raw milk or cream in its own territory. The FSAI would encourage and very much welcome a return to such national legislation. The potential public health risks associated with the consumption of raw milk are well documented. The effectiveness of pasteurisation as a preventive measure is beyond scientific doubt.
A return to a prohibition on raw milk sale will not meet with universal appeal. Opponents will argue for the right and freedom to choose, but such freedom should be limited for the greater good. Children, who often have no choice, must be protected. Adults also have the right not be served or sold raw milk without their knowledge. Of course, the standards of milk production in Ireland are much improved and there is already a general legal obligation on all food producers to market only safe food. Pasteurisation of milk removes any doubt about safety. Science, history and experience points clearly in its favour. The FSAI believes that it would serve the greater good to require again by law, that only pasteurised milk is made available to our population and, crucially, our children.

silverharp

I must say the law is an ass here, raw milk illegal, HFCS , have as much as you like. So its ok to set up a third of our kids for type 2 diabetes but they have got our backs that some people "might" catch something from raw milk.

Corsendonk

silverharp wrote: »

I must say the law is an ass here, raw milk illegal, HFCS , have as much as you like. So its ok to set up a third of our kids for type 2 diabetes but they have got our backs that some people "might" catch something from raw milk.

You obviously didn't read my post, its not illegal but they don't recommend you drink it. Alot of people who remember drinking it grew up on the farm were there body had built up anti-bodies to any bacteria that may be in the milk but today most of us live away from farms so raw milk is a greater risk. Also raw milk can be a source of Listeria which apart from killing you can cause foetus to abort.

antoniosicily

The scaremongering about raw milk is ridiculous, same applies to the discussion about cheeses made from raw milk.

We are in 2010 and science allow us to enjoy something so beautiful as raw milk with the due precautions; in Italy raw milk is sold in automated machines, obviously what comes in there is analysed and raw milk makes 10% of the entire nation milk (souce: http://www.realmilk.com/happening-other.html#italy).

In Ireland milk is a lot better than Italy because you don't make so much cheese but it seems that it is illegal to sell raw milk, I understand that 100 years ago raw milk was dangerous because of TBC and so on, but with what we know now, if the proper safeguards and analysis are in place, raw milk should be enjoyed.

antoniosicily

Corsendonk wrote: »

You obviously didn't read my post, its not illegal but they don't recommend you drink it. Alot of people who remember drinking it grew up on the farm were there body had built up anti-bodies to any bacteria that may be in the milk but today most of us live away from farms so raw milk is a greater risk. Also raw milk can be a source of Listeria which apart from killing you can cause foetus to abort.

If the milk is infected by TBC or salmonella, it is most likely that your body develops death rather than anti-bodies.

Corsendonk

antoniosicily wrote: »

The scaremongering about raw milk is ridiculous, same applies to the discussion about cheeses made from raw milk.

We are in 2010 and science allow us to enjoy something so beautiful as raw milk with the due precautions; in Italy raw milk is sold in automated machines, obviously what comes in there is analysed and raw milk makes 10% of the entire nation milk (souce: http://www.realmilk.com/happening-other.html#italy).

In Ireland milk is a lot better than Italy because you don't make so much cheese but it seems that it is illegal to sell raw milk, I understand that 100 years ago raw milk was dangerous because of TBC and so on, but with what we know now, if the proper safeguards and analysis are in place, raw milk should be enjoyed.

Its not illegal since the hygiene package was adopted if you read the article from the FSAI. But traditional people in Ireland got raw milk from the farmer without any analysis for TBC, The dairy industry would be unwilling to supply raw milk, the low sales wouldnt be worth the risk.

serenacat

I'd like to try raw milk, its how natural intended and would give my antibodies a workout, they have nothing to fight that's why I'm allergic to dust and hay.

OutlawPete

A few Raw Cheeses here now, I buy St Tola Goat's Cheese which is made from Raw Goat's Milk.

I also buy a Raw Butter from Cavistons.

rubadub

OutlawPete wrote: »

I also buy a Raw Butter from Cavistons.

is there much difference in taste? is it expensive?

amber2

After seeing a report on Ear to the Ground recently showing unpasturized milk is beneficial to kids who suffer for allergies . I was contemplating giving unpasteurized milk to my 20 month old who suffers from what im told is asthma. He is constantly on inhalers during this type of weather. Its not hereditary and no one in the family suffers from any allergies. Any views

http://www.rte.ie/tv/fourlive/2010/1115/eartotheground040.html

I know i did see the bit about the family in Cork who got Bruscellious, hence my post.

deisemum

I grew up on a dairy farm and I was a premature baby born 6 weeks early back in the mid 60's.

Once I was home from hospital I was given fresh milk that was boiled and then strained through a tea towel as well as starting on solids at 6 weeks old which would have been around my due date. That was the norm back then.

My dad had the milk tested at the lab on a regular basis to ensure he got the premium rate and not rely on the lab technician employed by the dairy.

amacachi

serenacat wrote: »

I'd like to try raw milk, its how natural intended and would give my antibodies a workout, they have nothing to fight that's why I'm allergic to dust and hay.

Nature intended us to consume milk from other animals? :pac:

antoniosicily

just to get back in topic, Sheridans have been selling raw milk during some of the past weekends, follow them on twitter to get more info

OutlawPete

rubadub wrote: »

is there much difference in taste? is it expensive?

It's quite expensive alright, around €20 a KG.

ALl Superquinns stock it - Sheridans and Nourish do it also.

It's my favourite Goat's cheese by a mile.

The Butter I spoke of comes from France and is also much nicer than any other butter I've tasted.

HarryPotter41

amber2 wrote: »

After seeing a report on Ear to the Ground recently showing unpasturized milk is beneficial to kids who suffer for allergies . I was contemplating giving unpasteurized milk to my 20 month old who suffers from what im told is asthma. He is constantly on inhalers during this type of weather. Its not hereditary and no one in the family suffers from any allergies. Any views

http://www.rte.ie/tv/fourlive/2010/1115/eartotheground040.html

I know i did see the bit about the family in Cork who got Bruscellious, hence my post.

I look upon the TB thing the way I look upon getting in my car, because apparently driving on roads increases the risk, though small, of dying in an accident.

antoniosicily

Bought the raw milk from Sheridan's yesterday, 1 eu for 1 lt (pretty good value).

Drank a glass yesterday and a glass this morning, no boiling, no warming; great taste.

I'm writing this post so I suppose I'm still alive.

IR

Hey, all just updating a couple of threads I found about Raw Milk.
It was banned here in 1996, but then EU directive superseded this law and currently sale of raw milk in Ireland is legal.

However the Minister for Agriculture now plans to ban it once again, thereby removing our right to choose for ourselves what we wish to consume...

It is certainly not appropriate for ever dairy farm in Ireland to be allowed to sell raw milk, what is appropriate is a system of regulations including clear advisory labels etc for those who do so that consumers can then make an informed choice.

See more details on this recent thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...php?p=73027858

OutlawPete

Madness.

Sure that means that even companies like St Tola won't be able to produce their unpasteurised cheeses.

IR

Hi Pete.

The Minister has stated that he has no plans at all to ban the sale of raw milk cheese. This ban relates only to the sale of raw liquid milk to consumers...
At least that's a small relief!

OutlawPete

IR wrote: »

Hi Pete.

The Minister has stated that he has no plans at all to ban the sale of raw milk cheese. This ban relates only to the sale of raw liquid milk to consumers...
At least that's a small relief!

Makes even less sense so

They want the sale of liquid milk banned because of the dangers of potentially harmful pathogens, but if they existed in the milk, they will be prolific in soft chesses made from said milk (as it will be made from unpasteurised milk).

Mr Magnolia

IR wrote: »

Hey, all just updating all the threads I can find about Raw Milk.

Well stop. There's no need to bump multiple threads that are years old.

IR

That's true in many ways and another oxymoron is that raw milk butter will not be banned.

There are however differences in the cheese making process which do contribute to a lowering of risk including the raised acidity levels. This is especially true of harder cheeses with a longer aging process but less so of soft and fresh cheeses...

One of the biggest differences in risk is the longer window available for testing prior to sale - but again this is not the case with fresh or young cheeses, and in any event the law here does not require all cheese to be tested before entering the market...

IR

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

Well stop. There's no need to bump multiple threads that are years old.

all of them bar one had relatively recent posts - just making sure all the participants asking the question were pointed in the right direction relating to what I think is an important issue.

Thanks for understanding...

Ps - it was just 3 threads total...

loyatemu

was in France recently - while most French ppl just buy UHT milk in the tourist areas you can usually get "lait frais" (ie regular pasteurised milk) and the big supermarkets all seem to sell "lait cru" (unpasteurised) also, in the same plastic bottles from the same manufacturers. Why is it ok there and not here?

olaola

More info on raw milk: http://www.slowfoodireland.com/index.php/food/features/112-raw-milk.html

IR

loyatemu wrote: »

was in France recently - while most French ppl just buy UHT milk in the tourist areas you can usually get "lait frais" (ie regular pasteurised milk) and the big supermarkets all seem to sell "lait cru" (unpasteurised) also, in the same plastic bottles from the same manufacturers. Why is it ok there and not here?

It is something that baffles many producers here - Why we as Ireland always have to think that for some reason we need to do things 'better' than the rest of Europe - be stricter and impose more regulations - or in this case an outright ban.
Lots of people I speak to explain it because of our relatively new food culture. Where the French have so many food traditions, and food was perhaps always considered a more important part of everyday life, we maybe don't have the same tie to our food traditions for some reason???

the beer revolu

IR wrote: »

It is something that baffles many producers here - Why we as Ireland always have to think that for some reason we need to do things 'better' than the rest of Europe - be stricter and impose more regulations - or in this case an outright ban.
Lots of people I speak to explain it because of our relatively new food culture. Where the French have so many food traditions, and food was perhaps always considered a more important part of everyday life, we maybe don't have the same tie to our food traditions for some reason???

I think that explains it very well.

olaola

Article in today's IT: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2011/0719/1224300937914.html

the beer revolu

I've been told by a cheese dealer that West Cork Natural Cheeses who made Gabriel and Desmond cheese (two of the finest hard cheeses in the world, in my opinion) have gone out of business and have stopped producing cheese.
Over the course of three years they were hounded by the authorities for using raw milk in their cheese making. Eventually they won their case but three years of struggling against the authorities, having maturing stock seized, and funding their case has put an end to this wonderful cheese. They have to date received no compensation.

This is one example of the work of overzealous, scientist bureaucrats.

olaola

Well I think this article is a bit quick to blame the scientists. It's probably more of the case that the information is presented, and as what always seems to be the situation, is misinterpreted by the reader.

the beer revolu

olaola wrote: »

Well I think this article is a bit quick to blame the scientists. It's probably more of the case that the information is presented, and as what always seems to be the situation, is misinterpreted by the reader.

Well, we had two microbiologists friends around for dinner recently, and you should have seen their faces when they heard that we had raw milk from a source that we trusted completely. One of them actually thought that we were joking when we said that we were going to drink it! (not sure what she thought we were going to do with it!!).

The same people (not true of all scientists, no doubt) have absolutely no understanding of craft food and don't understand what all the fuss is about over the banning; 'it's safer' is all they see. One of them is really into cheese - factory cheese. He understands how it's made and appreciates the difference between good factory cheese and bad factory cheese but give him a piece of nice farmhouse cheese and he just doesn't get it at all.

He did, however, consent that raw milk could, in the right conditions, be safe to consume but couldn't understand why anyone take the 'risk'.

This is just my experience of food scientists.

LostCovey

the beer revolu wrote: »

Well, we had two microbiologists friends around for dinner recently, and you should have seen their faces when they heard that we had raw milk from a source that we trusted completely. One of them actually thought that we were joking when we said that we were going to drink it! (not sure what she thought we were going to do with it!!).

The same people (not true of all scientists, no doubt) have absolutely no understanding of craft food and don't understand what all the fuss is about over the banning 'it's safer' is all they see. One of them is really into cheese - factory cheese. He understands how it's made and appreciates the difference between good factory cheese and bad factory cheese but give him a piece of nice farmhouse cheese and he just doesn't get it at all.

He did, however, consent that raw milk could, in the right conditions, be safe to consume but couldn't understand why anyone take the 'risk'.

This is just my experience of food scientists.

God this post is real flat earth stuff.

There is no craft food argument about drinking raw milk.

It carries risks that are greatly reduced, and generally abolished in pasteurised milk.

Your post suggests that it has been written from an anti logic, anti science position. But I may be incorrect about that.

However I strongly disagree with it, but I respect you for posting it, and taking the risk that it may undermine your credibility.

LostCovey

LostCovey

the beer revolu wrote: »

Well, we had two microbiologists friends around for dinner recently, and you should have seen their faces when they heard that we had raw milk from a source that we trusted completely.

What could such a trust be based on?

A herd that never purchases cattle from other herds?
A herd that never has a tick on a milking cow?
A herd that never has a sick cow among the milking herd?
A herd that neverr had a case of mastitis?
A herd that never had a cow with an elevated somatic cell count?
A herd that never has any rodents or crows on the farm?
A herd that never had a calf with scour on the farm?

I put it to the forum that such a herd would be rather difficult for a typical milk drinker to locate

LC

The Hill Billy

LostCovey - Attack the post, not the poster. Keep it civil.

HB

IR

the beer revolu wrote: »

Well, we had two microbiologists friends around for dinner recently, and you should have seen their faces when they heard that we had raw milk from a source that we trusted completely. One of them actually thought that we were joking when we said that we were going to drink it! (not sure what she thought we were going to do with it!!).

The same people (not true of all scientists, no doubt) have absolutely no understanding of craft food and don't understand what all the fuss is about over the banning 'it's safer' is all they see. One of them is really into cheese - factory cheese. He understands how it's made and appreciates the difference between good factory cheese and bad factory cheese but give him a piece of nice farmhouse cheese and he just doesn't get it at all.

He did, however, consent that raw milk could, in the right conditions, be safe to consume but couldn't understand why anyone take the 'risk'.

This is just my experience of food scientists.

I think this is the big point of what goes on in the FSAI, they just cannot get their head's around why on god's earth we would want to drink raw milk...
For me, as well as health benefits it really is largely flavour - the difference is astounding. But then there is also the undiscriminatory nature of the pasteurisation process where so many beneficial components in the form of bacteria, enzymes, proteins and vitamins - as well as potentially damaging bacteria are destroyed...
John McKenna said it well in his Irish times article today:
"As Pierre Boisard put it in his book, Camembert, A National Myth: “For scientists, nothing was more baffling and unscientific than the skill of the cheese makers, who managed to produce savoury Camemberts without knowing anything at all about microbiology”.

And scientists hate to be baffled by seemingly ignorant farmers and cheesemakers who, damn them all, have scarcely a BSc to their name."

the beer revolu

LostCovey wrote: »

God this post is real flat earth stuff.

There is no craft food argument about drinking raw milk.

It carries risks that are greatly reduced, and generally abolished in pasteurised milk.

Your post suggests that it has been written from an anti logic, anti science position. But I may be incorrect about that.

However I strongly disagree with it, but I respect you for posting it, and taking the risk that it may undermine your credibility.

LostCovey

You have me puzzled there LostCovey!

What exactly do you strongly disagree with?

I recounted an experience myself and my wife had with two friends.
Do you doubt that encounter?

The only claim I made was that these people (my friends) have no understanding of craft food? Do you know these people? Do you dispute this claim? - I'm sure they wouldn't.

Are you suggesting that myself and my wife don't trust the source from which we get our milk and that I was lying when I said I did?

You are perfectly entitled to think I am misguided, naive, ignorant, foolish, lacking in credibility or anything else for trusting any source of unpasteurized but I still don't see what it is in my post that you strongly disagree with.

I'm wondering if you are the guy in my local who when arguing, starts shouting "you're wrong" before anything is said!
On one occasion the barman stated that he'd argue with the wall to which he replied "no I wouldn't!"

I also find your 'flat earth' analogy rather odd.
Surely it was the establishment and scientists of the day claiming the earth was flat and a maverick thinker claiming it was round? Or maybe I'm missing something.

Oh, and I'm so glad you respect me, LostCovey, I'd say the same for you only it would be meaningless as my credibility is so comprimised;)

the beer revolu

LostCovey wrote: »

What could such a trust be based on?

LC

That trust is based on trusting a supplier enough to drink the same milk that they drink themselves and have been doing so for a couple of generations.
Of trusting them that their practise would minimise any risk.

I'm not trying to have pasteurized milk banned here!
I simply want people to be able to have a choice.
For there to be a system of testing for raw milk so it can be sold as a premium product to those that wish to make that choice.
But of course, it's much easier to have an outright ban!
I fear that this ban is the thin end of the wedge that will see everything that's not produced in a factory banned.

LC, would you be in favour of also banning raw milk cheese?

LostCovey

the beer revolu wrote: »

LostCovey wrote: »

God this post is real flat earth stuff.

There is no craft food argument about drinking raw milk.

It carries risks that are greatly reduced, and generally abolished in pasteurised milk.

Your post suggests that it has been written from an anti logic, anti science position. But I may be incorrect about that.

However I strongly disagree with it, but I respect you for posting it, and taking the risk that it may undermine your credibility.

LostCovey

You have me puzzled there LostCovey!

What exactly do you strongly disagree with?

I recounted an experience myself and my wife had with two friends.
Do you doubt that encounter?

The only claim I made was that these people (my friends) have no understanding of craft food? Do you know these people? Do you dispute this claim? - I'm sure they wouldn't.

Are you suggesting that myself and my wife don't trust the source from which we get our milk and that I was lying when I said I did?

You are perfectly entitled to think I am misguided, naive, ignorant, foolish, lacking in credibility or anything else for trusting any source of unpasteurized but I still don't see what it is in my post that you strongly disagree with.

I'm wondering if you are the guy in my local who when arguing, starts shouting "you're wrong" before anything is said!
On one occasion the barman stated that he'd argue with the wall to which he replied "no I wouldn't!"

I also find your 'flat earth' analogy rather odd.
Surely it was the establishment and scientists of the day claiming the earth was flat and a maverick thinker claiming it was round? Or maybe I'm missing something.

Oh, and I'm so glad you respect me, LostCovey, I'd say the same for you only it would be meaningless as my credibility is so comprimised;)

Flat earth beliefs were based on trust and faith and received wisdom, passed on without question ó ghlúin go glúin. Such beliefs survived until they were overwhelmed by the enlightened evidence of science. Pasteurisation does not need me to defend it as there is a massive volume of peer reviews literature that atttests to its effficacy and the benefits it has bestowed on public health and the reduction of childhood mortality. However this is probably the wrong place to discuss these things, when some participants apparently regard "scientific" and "evidence-based" as pejorative terms.

However I can now see why the FSAI in contemplating a ban might not see much point in extensive consultation. Some people clearly need to be protected from the adverse consequences of their profound naivete.



LostCovey

the beer revolu

LostCovey wrote: »

Flat earth beliefs were based on trust and faith and received wisdom, passed on without question ó ghlúin go glúin. Such beliefs survived until they were overwhelmed by the enlightened evidence of science. Pasteurisation does not need me to defend it as there is a massive volume of peer reviews literature that atttests to its effficacy and the benefits it has bestowed on public health and the reduction of childhood mortality. However this is probably the wrong place to discuss these things, when some participants apparently regard "scientific" and "evidence-based" as pejorative terms.

However I can now see why the FSAI in contemplating a ban might not see much point in extensive consultation. Some people clearly need to be protected from the adverse consequences of their profound naivete.






LostCovey

I repeat my question:
What, exactly, in my post do you strongly disagree with?

Also, I asked you for your view on raw milk cheese.

Where in this thread did I or anyone else deride or question pasteurization or what it does?

It seems to me that you have a far greater love of talking than listening (or in this case writing rather than reading)

The Hill Billy

The pair of you either give it up or I will remove your access to this forum.

HB

IR

LostCovey wrote: »

However I can now see why the FSAI in contemplating a ban might not see much point in extensive consultation. Some people clearly need to be protected from the adverse consequences of their profound naivete.



LostCovey

Not to be picky, but case in point there about the not reading things through - the FSAI as an advisory body have no power to implement a ban. It is the Department of Agriculture facilitated by the Department of Health.

I think perhaps you are venting here based on contents of another thread which you were posting in previously?
Perhaps all will become clearer to any viewers if they have a look...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056329554

the beer revolu

IR wrote: »

I think perhaps you are venting here based on contents of another thread which you were posting in previously?
Perhaps all will become clearer to any viewers if they have a look...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056329554

That thread certainly does make for very interesting reading!

IR

the beer revolu wrote: »

That thread certainly does make for very interesting reading!

Still want to drink raw milk?

the beer revolu

IR wrote: »

Still want to drink raw milk?

Yes but I'm obviously, like yourself, a retrograde, ignorant, illogical, moon worshipping hippie, so I wouldn't take too much notice of me.

But I must dash, I'm off to force feed some poorly infants and pregnant women lovely, warm, untested raw milk (for their own good, of course!);)

LostCovey

the beer revolu wrote: »

Yes but I'm obviously, like yourself, a retrograde, ignorant, illogical, moon worshipping hippie, so I wouldn't take too much notice of me.

But I must dash, I'm off to force feed some poorly infants and pregnant women lovely, warm, untested raw milk (for their own good, of course!);)

The dripping sarcasm and avoidance of any attempt to address any of the factual issues raised about health hazards inherent in drinking raw farm milk suggests that these two posters are walking away from the debate.

Fine by me.

LostCovey

IR

LostCovey wrote: »

The dripping sarcasm and avoidance of any attempt to address any of the factual issues raised about health hazards inherent in drinking raw farm milk suggests that these two posters are walking away from the debate.

Fine by me.

LostCovey

To be fair on this - you are the one who only selectively addresses certain points where you CAN make a point.
I understand that there are two sides to the argument, and you have certainly made a couple of valid points (in the other thread that is!)
But genuinely take the time to read through ALL the points I have made, and then think them through and address them all.
You were given the last word already. It is quite clear to me that you have not read all of the information provided, when you HAVE done this and when you are prepared to look at all the points then perhaps you will be able to see (as I can) that there are two sides to every argument.

By the way, i have acknowledged potential risks several times perhaps you would go back and READ my posts and you will see this.
The main point is that risks are all around and in many foods, if I choose to take a risk, however small it may be in the case of regulated production, then why should I not be allowed to? After all we can smoke and drink and drive, is natural raw milk really all that scary when you look at it in this context?
Best Wishes

LostCovey

IR wrote: »

To be fair on this - you are the one who only selectively addresses certain points where you CAN make a point.
I understand that there are two sides to the argument, and you have certainly made a couple of valid points (in the other thread that is!)
But genuinely take the time to read through ALL the points I have made, and then think them through and address them all.

You were given the last word already. It is quite clear to me that you have not read all of the information provided, when you HAVE done this and when you are prepared to look at all the points then perhaps you will be able to see (as I can) that there are two sides to every argument.

By the way, i have acknowledged potential risks several times perhaps you would go back and READ my posts and you will see this.
The main point is that risks are all around and in many foods, if I choose to take a risk, however small it may be in the case of regulated production, then why should I not be allowed to? After all we can smoke and drink and drive, is natural raw milk really all that scary when you look at it in this context?
Best Wishes

IR

I have read your points and they are all subjective, while the counter argument is a scientific one based on the statistical risk to the population.

On balance the risk outweighs the benefits in my opinion.

A further argument that is raised in today's Farmer's Journal which did not occur to me is that this country exports over 90% of its dairy produce, and the sale of raw milk brings the risk of adverse publicity.

Suppose that somebody who is willing to take a risk (and you explicitly accept it is a risk) and they lose the gamble: the person and some of their family die as a result of E. coli 0157 and the survivors go on a waiting list for a renal transplant. I can acept that the adults are free to gamble with their lkives/health (not the kids), but the clincher is that the publicity resulting from this could cause a collapse in demand for perfectly safe pasteurised Irish dairy produce. Economic catastrophe would follow on top of our weakened condition, and why - because we took a gamble to satisfy some epicureans with a perverse craving for the raw mammary secretions of another animal?

This is the argument that will carry the day, and render our little squabble here totally academic.

LostCovey

IR

LostCovey wrote: »

IR



On balance the risk outweighs the benefits in my opinion.

A further argument that is raised in today's Farmer's Journal which did not occur to me is that this country exports over 90% of its dairy produce, and the sale of raw milk brings the risk of adverse publicity.

LostCovey

Except that this could still happen given that so many farmers drink their own milk - so point is null and void.

By banning raw milk we send out a vote of no confidence in our dairy farmers to the world...
Thanks
FIN