appeals/..........

lallychops

wondering if any leaving certs from 2010 have heard anything back from their appeals yet??:cool:

telephone

We won't hear until Wednesday.

lallychops

telephone wrote: »

We won't hear until Wednesday.

bit ridiculous really isnt it?

rainbowtrout

lallychops wrote: »

bit ridiculous really isnt it?

Why?

Teachers that correct the appeals....are teaching, it's not like the summer when they have time to correct. SEC are not going to release different results at different times, with upgrades it could mean a student got a place on appeal ahead of another student simply because the grades in one particular subject were returned to the SEC before another subject.

Some schools are VERY slow to send back appeals. God knows why. I correct appeals and I had finished my batch this year and had them sent in by my deadline and a few days later when all my paperwork had been posted back I received a late script in the post. The date for sending them back from schools had passed by at least a fortnight at this stage. So the SEC have to allow for the ridiculous attitude of schools in returning scripts for appeal. How would you feel if you got a letter in the post saying your script wasn't recorrected because your school couldn't be bothered to send it back on time?

telephone

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Why?

Teachers that correct the appeals....are teaching, it's not like the summer when they have time to correct. SEC are not going to release different results at different times, with upgrades it could mean a student got a place on appeal ahead of another student simply because the grades in one particular subject were returned to the SEC before another subject.

Some schools are VERY slow to send back appeals. God knows why. I correct appeals and I had finished my batch this year and had them sent in by my deadline and a few days later when all my paperwork had been posted back I received a late script in the post. The date for sending them back from schools had passed by at least a fortnight at this stage. So the SEC have to allow for the ridiculous attitude of schools in returning scripts for appeal. How would you feel if you got a letter in the post saying your script wasn't recorrected because your school couldn't be bothered to send it back on time?

Do you have any idea what time the appeal results are available online from?

rainbowtrout

telephone wrote: »

Do you have any idea what time the appeal results are available online from?

Not a clue. Check the SEC website.

telephone

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not a clue. Check the SEC website.

I did, but they say nothing about what time they will be available to view online at

lallychops

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Why?

Teachers that correct the appeals....are teaching, it's not like the summer when they have time to correct. SEC are not going to release different results at different times, with upgrades it could mean a student got a place on appeal ahead of another student simply because the grades in one particular subject were returned to the SEC before another subject.

Some schools are VERY slow to send back appeals. God knows why. I correct appeals and I had finished my batch this year and had them sent in by my deadline and a few days later when all my paperwork had been posted back I received a late script in the post. The date for sending them back from schools had passed by at least a fortnight at this stage. So the SEC have to allow for the ridiculous attitude of schools in returning scripts for appeal. How would you feel if you got a letter in the post saying your script wasn't recorrected because your school couldn't be bothered to send it back on time?

It is ridiculous due to the fact that once the appeal result has been released one may be entitled to a different university course. Which in most cases is already half a semester through. Meaning if one decides to accept the new course they either face the highly difficult task of catching up on 6 weeks work or take a year out of and take the course next year. Why one should have to make either decision is bang out of order. The process could indeed be improved. For example a more stingrbt supervising system for original correction of scripts. For example my English script was borderline. .25% to be exact. Correct me if I'm wrong but borderline grades of that magnitude should be sent to a supervising examiner should they not? This was not the case. Maybe if the supervision was increased we could have avoided sending the script back causing further angst and annoyance to all concerned. I do agree that human error occurs however the inconsistency of correcting in my class especially was remarkable. Pay teachers more to correct the scripts quicker or whatever. The process need not take as long as it does. The results are disclosed in august. Scripts aren't available for viewing until late September. IMO impose the deadlines and incur fees on students/schools or whatever. It has taken almost 5 weeks for the appeals to be processed. In my opinion if thy have been corrected once by rights why should it take so long? The marking schemes are detailed. I am disputing my grade on the basis that whoever graded it clearly didn't adhere to the marking scheme laid out. So yes in my opinion the entire system is ridiculous. It could be made more efficent with minimal effort. Whether it be my schools fault or joy is irrelevant. The problem is much further embedded in the system.

randylonghorn

lallychops wrote: »

It is ridiculous due to the fact that once the appeal result has been released one may be entitled to a different university course. Which in most cases is already half a semester through.

One of the problems there is that the colleges are starting earlier in recent years ... for often quite good reasons of their own, but it has put more pressure on the LC results system.

lallychops wrote: »

For example my English script was borderline. .25% to be exact. Correct me if I'm wrong but borderline grades of that magnitude should be sent to a supervising examiner should they not?

Not unless the system has changed since I last corrected. Supervising examiners would check a selection of papers, usually concentrating on those around the cut-offs (and feed back on that basis) but not every borderline paper ... you would need several times as many supervising examiners to do that.

lallychops wrote: »

Pay teachers more to correct the scripts quicker or whatever.

Tbh, you could have paid me three times as much and I couldn't have done them quicker ... or at least I couldn't have done them quicker AND done them well. You have no idea how head-wrecking it is spending 3 weeks wading through hundreds of English HL papers (though I suspect subjects such as Maths / Science would be easier in that respect).

Increasing the number of examiners might be more useful in terms of "quicker", BUT then you end up with a greater number of examiners to try to hold to a consistent standard, and a lot of inexperienced examiners to boot, which leads to ...

lallychops wrote: »

... however the inconsistency of correcting in my class especially was remarkable.

lallychops wrote: »

The results are disclosed in august. Scripts aren't available for viewing until late September.

lallychops wrote: »

IMO impose the deadlines and incur fees on students/schools or whatever.

I would agree that schools returning appeal scripts late should be fined, I doubt if it happens that often though.

rainbowtrout

lallychops wrote: »

It is ridiculous due to the fact that once the appeal result has been released one may be entitled to a different university course. Which in most cases is already half a semester through. Meaning if one decides to accept the new course they either face the highly difficult task of catching up on 6 weeks work or take a year out of and take the course next year. Why one should have to make either decision is bang out of order.

As randylonghorn pointed out the third level colleges are starting back much earlier than they used to. When I started college I started the last week of September and some colleges didn't start until the first week of October so even if you did go through the appeals system you wouldn't miss more than a week or two. Three at most. It's not the SEC's fault that colleges have pulled forward their start dates by almost a month in some cases.

lallychops wrote: »

The process could indeed be improved. For example a more stingrbt supervising system for original correction of scripts. For example my English script was borderline. .25% to be exact. Correct me if I'm wrong but borderline grades of that magnitude should be sent to a supervising examiner should they not? This was not the case. Maybe if the supervision was increased we could have avoided sending the script back causing further angst and annoyance to all concerned. I do agree that human error occurs however the inconsistency of correcting in my class especially was remarkable. Pay teachers more to correct the scripts quicker or whatever. The process need not take as long as it does..

You haven't a clue how the system works really. You could pay me a thousand euros a paper and I still wouldn't get it done any quicker and if I was to get it done 'quicker' they would be corrected sloppily and you would still be complaining. Generally correctors are asked to look at borderline grades to see if they can be brought up. The examiner may have looked at yours and decided that it didn't merit the next grade up. On the other hand the Dept may have decided that they had enough grades of each bracket and weren't bringing up grades unnecessarily and so you lose out.

lallychops wrote: »

The process need not take as long as it does. The results are disclosed in august. Scripts aren't available for viewing until late September..

Now you are just exaggerating. The results come out the Wednesday in the middle week of August, this year that was on the 18th. The viewing of the scropts always takes place on the first weekend in September/last weekend in August. Acutally it usually clashes with Electric Picnic, as there were a few on here whinging that the SEC had put it on the same weekend as the festival. :rolleyes: This year that was the weekend of the 4th September.

lallychops wrote: »

IMO impose the deadlines and incur fees on students/schools or whatever. It has taken almost 5 weeks for the appeals to be processed. In my opinion if thy have been corrected once by rights why should it take so long? The marking schemes are detailed. I am disputing my grade on the basis that whoever graded it clearly didn't adhere to the marking scheme laid out. So yes in my opinion the entire system is ridiculous. It could be made more efficent with minimal effort. Whether it be my schools fault or joy is irrelevant. The problem is much further embedded in the system.

To explain the system. The scripts were viewed on the weekend of the 4th. The schools/students then have a fortnight to return them to the SEC. The SEC then has to sort them into bundles so the corrector who gets the appeals doesn't get papers from their own school OR get papers they have already corrected. A conference has to be held to go back through the marking scheme and clarify any issues. The teachers that correct are also teaching full time, so time for correcting is limited to their weekends and evenings. We are given 10-14 days to correct and return the papers - you do want your papers corrected properly don't you, or would you prefer that it was skimmed through but returned faster - those papers go to an advising examiner who checks them, then i assume they go back to the SEC for processing, and as I outlined earlier it wouldn't be fair to release the appeal results for any subject before the results in another as it might have an effect on CAO offers. That might explain your 5 week turnaround time.

lallychops wrote: »

It could be made more efficent with minimal effort. Whether it be my schools fault or joy is irrelevant. The problem is much further embedded in the system.

I'd love to see you try. You have no idea what it is like to correct the same paper 400 times, especially when the student has illegible handwriting and chooses to write in luminous gel pens, and the marking scheme has been changed a couple of times and you have to recorrect all the same work again.

lallychops

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You haven't a clue how the system works really. You could pay me a thousand euros a paper and I still wouldn't get it done any quicker and if I was to get it done 'quicker' they would be corrected sloppily and you would still be complaining. Generally correctors are asked to look at borderline grades to see if they can be brought up. The examiner may have looked at yours and decided that it didn't merit the next grade up. On the other hand the Dept may have decided that they had enough grades of each bracket and weren't bringing up grades unnecessarily and so you lose out.

Perhaps you mis-understand me. I am not having a go at the people marking the appeals. I am annoyed that such a process takes so long. THE PROCESS, not the people performing such an arduous task. However, the point you make here:

On the other hand the Dept may have decided that they had enough grades of each bracket and weren't bringing up grades unnecessarily and so you lose out.

If correct, further enforces my view that the system of corrections is utterly flawed as, to take your logic further and (God forbid, for we know it never happens) an error was made on marking a paper and a decision was made that enough of grades were achieved already, I would lose out, even though my paper was marked in error ? Do you see no fallibility or culpability in such a process ?

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Now you are just exaggerating. The results come out the Wednesday in the middle week of August, this year that was on the 18th. The viewing of the scropts always takes place on the first weekend in September/last weekend in August. Acutally it usually clashes with Electric Picnic, as there were a few on here whinging that the SEC had put it on the same weekend as the festival. :rolleyes: This year that was the weekend of the 4th September.

I'm not whining for the sake of it, I merely see a system that takes until MID OCTOBER to review / notify corrections, especially in such cases where there is a +- percentage off a grade of, say, arbitrarily, err. 0.25% as wholly inefficient. I have put some suggestions as to ways such improvements could be made below but in this case, surely there is a process that shows all marginal results and sets up an automatic review RIGHT AFTER marking as a first pass ? Is there such a system ? Or do you wait until the student appeals ? You make the point that "the examiner may have looked at yours and decided that it didn't merit the next grade up. ", which examiner ? The original one ? Or someone else ? If there is such a system and mine was in fact discounted by another examiner, are there such volumes of appeals that it takes a whole month for any response or progress (using the same volume of resources as was at the disposal of the SEC at time of marking, even 50% allowing for teachers working) ?

rainbowtrout wrote: »

To explain the system. The scripts were viewed on the weekend of the 4th. The schools/students then have a fortnight to return them to the SEC. The SEC then has to sort them into bundles so the corrector who gets the appeals doesn't get papers from their own school OR get papers they have already corrected. A conference has to be held to go back through the marking scheme and clarify any issues. The teachers that correct are also teaching full time, so time for correcting is limited to their weekends and evenings. We are given 10-14 days to correct and return the papers - you do want your papers corrected properly don't you, or would you prefer that it was skimmed through but returned faster - those papers go to an advising examiner who checks them, then i assume they go back to the SEC for processing, and as I outlined earlier it wouldn't be fair to release the appeal results for any subject before the results in another as it might have an effect on CAO offers. That might explain your 5 week turnaround time.

Wow, such a laborious, time and resource intensive process! Looking at it logically from your description I can see your frustration with people who ask why it takes so long. On the other hand, surely you have to ask where it could actually be improved? :-

Inefficiencies of the PROCESS:
1. The teachers that correct are also teaching full time, so time for correcting is limited to their weekends and evenings.
Why ? Is there no board of examination full time correction team? :eek:

2. SEC then has to sort them into bundles so the corrector who gets the appeals doesn't get papers from their own school.
What ? Wow. Suppose they're posted out then too ?

3. A conference has to be held to go back through the marking scheme and clarify any issues.
This is done AT APPEALS time ? Not an ongoing process improvement process in place for this / individual consultation ?

4. The schools/students then have a fortnight to return them to the SEC.
Why is this not electronic / facsimile driven? Why could the examination department, (instead of shipping papers all around the place) not create verifiable copies and a decent system where appeals could be submitted electronically (this could then be at the discretion of the school, reducing the 2 weeks on a case by case basis in a lot of cases) ???

5. prefer that it was skimmed through but returned faster ...
Err, not really, In my view (and that of two other teachers) in my case, my original paper was skimmed through once already, thus leading to the appeal...

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'd love to see you try. You have no idea what it is like to correct the same paper 400 times, especially when the student has illegible handwriting and chooses to write in luminous gel pens, and the marking scheme has been changed a couple of times and you have to recorrect all the same work again.

I understand your points and where, given the explanation, the last 5 weeks has probably gone. Yet, surely you must also see from the perspective of an appeals student that as you explain it, the process is far from efficient. We PAY to sit these exams, we PAY for corrections to take place. On a pure Service provider > Customer contract, 5 weeks, to review 1 paper, in my view, regardless of staffing, process, bundling, whatever, is not efficient and could be done quicker. Some overall suggestions:

1. Create (and staff) an examinations board with people whose sole job it is to review appealed papers.

2. Implement (if not already there) a system that automatically sends papers for review if +- 0.25% in the same timeline as the LC results.

3. Implement an electronically based system that enables students to track appeals that would form the sole basis of appeal management. This could then cover such issues as bundling, allocation etc of papers to examiners (see point 1)

4. Implement a continual process improvement process whereby input from markers is both encouraged and acted upon.

5. Put the Customer (student) first. Ensure they are fully aware at all times of where their appeal is within the process, who they are able to talk to and when they can expect an outcome (would save a lot of angst and issues and maybe boards conversations such as this???).

In conclusion, in hindsight, given the fact that the marking and appeals systems appear to be fully manual reactive systems, staffed part-time by teachers (who I'm sure do their best, my issue is not with the people who staff the flawed process but the process itself). I am probably wishing for the moon, stars, and oh, maybe throw in the milky way while you're at it huh ??

spurious

It all boils down to cost - it always does.

implausible

lallychops wrote: »

For example my English script was borderline. .25% to be exact. Correct me if I'm wrong but borderline grades of that magnitude should be sent to a supervising examiner should they not? This was not the case. Maybe if the supervision was increased we could have avoided sending the script back causing further angst and annoyance to all concerned. I do agree that human error occurs however the inconsistency of correcting in my class especially was remarkable.

0.25%:eek: That's insane. As a corrector I'm flabbergasted that such a paper slipped through. That's 1.5 marks!!! The vast majority of English examiners would never leave a script within 8 marks of a grade, it's simply not fair on the student. As well as this, you're almost guaranteed a bollocking from your Advising Examiner and an instruction to look at it again. I'm stunned. You've been dreadfully unlucky in your corrector and Advising Examiner if I'm honest.

lallychops wrote: »

Inefficiencies of the PROCESS:
1. The teachers that correct are also teaching full time, so time for correcting is limited to their weekends and evenings.
Why ? Is there no board of examination full time correction team? :eek:

2. SEC then has to sort them into bundles so the corrector who gets the appeals doesn't get papers from their own school.
What ? Wow. Suppose they're posted out then too ?

3. A conference has to be held to go back through the marking scheme and clarify any issues.
This is done AT APPEALS time ? Not an ongoing process improvement process in place for this / individual consultation ?

4. The schools/students then have a fortnight to return them to the SEC.
Why is this not electronic / facsimile driven? Why could the examination department, (instead of shipping papers all around the place) not create verifiable copies and a decent system where appeals could be submitted electronically

Having a full-time examining board is unfeasible. For one, it wouldn't be a full-time job. Who would do this work? Personally, I would prefer to have my exam paper marked by someone who actually teaches and is in the school system.

For the system to be transparent and fair, the original script has to be used. It's unwieldy, yes, but difficult to tamper with. You are forgetting that examiners are regular people, who may not have access to scanners, photocopiers or even the internet.

At the conference, it is more than just the marking that is covered: possible problem areas are identified, the remarking system is explained, administration, forms and the scripts are physically handed over to the examiners. There has to be some centralised way of dealing with the scripts - the conference is it.

lallychops

@ Deemark don't talk to me about it my English teacher was absoultely stunned and not impressed to say the least....was banking on English to secure a course I really wanted....needless to say it didn't happen this making one very unlucky and unhappy lallychops

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Anyways.....
Does anyone know what time we'll be able to view our scripts online at?? Think I forgot my password though so does that mean I'll have to go into the school to see them or will they be posted out like the results??

lallychops

THFC wrote: »

Anyways.....
Does anyone know what time we'll be able to view our scripts online at?? Think I forgot my password though so does that mean I'll have to go into the school to see them or will they be posted out like the results??

I don't have my password either. Are they definitely out tomorrow? I assume thenschool will get them at some stage anyway.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

lallychops wrote: »

I don't have my password either. Are they definitely out tomorrow? I assume thenschool will get them at some stage anyway.

Well, according to the posts at the top of this thread anyways.

telephone

Results are online at 12pm I think. My school will ring us first thing in the morning if we do move up points, but that could vary from school to school.

randylonghorn

lallychops wrote: »

If correct, further enforces my view that the system of corrections is utterly flawed as, to take your logic further and (God forbid, for we know it never happens) an error was made on marking a paper and a decision was made that enough of grades were achieved already, I would lose out, even though my paper was marked in error ? Do you see no fallibility or culpability in such a process ?

No, RB was suggesting that not everyone just under a cut-off will automatically be marked up simply BECAUSE they are close to the cut-off, especially if the proportion of top grades is already very high relative to other years. An error is a different matter ... if it's not caught at the time, there is an appeals process.

Bear in mind that we as users of this forum don't *know* that there was an error in marking your paper, we only know that you believe there was.

lallychops wrote: »

I have put some suggestions as to ways such improvements could be made below but in this case, surely there is a process that shows all marginal results and sets up an automatic review RIGHT AFTER marking as a first pass?

No, there isn't.

Though I do agree with Deemark that leaving someone sitting 0.25% under a cut-off is not good practice, esp. in English which has (and has to have) an inherent subjectivity no matter how examiners try to be as consistent as possible. It's been a while since I marked LC English, but if I ended up with a total like that I would certainly have been taking a second look.

Personally I'm suspecting an inexperienced examiner ... hard to avoid, everyone has to start some time.

lallychops wrote: »

You make the point that "the examiner may have looked at yours and decided that it didn't merit the next grade up. ", which examiner ? The original one ? Or someone else ?

Theoretically both, though I doubt it in this case given the closeness of the mark.

lallychops wrote: »

(using the same volume of resources as was at the disposal of the SEC at time of marking, even 50% allowing for teachers working)?

There aren't the same volume of resources at the disposal of the SEC. Examiners are brought in to do X hundred scripts in ~ 3 weeks, and paid for that. A smaller number of the most experienced examiners do Y scripts each for the appeals process in (I'm guessing) slightly over a week. According to the SEC and the Department, the costs for the process as it is are already way too high ... which, believe me, has more to do with the volume of students / subjects / scripts in the main exam process than what they actually pay examiners per script.

lallychops wrote: »

Wow, such a laborious, time and resource intensive process!

It is actually, with a number of safeguards written in which make it more so ... they may not *always* work, but they do catch most things.

lallychops wrote: »

Why ? Is there no board of examination full time correction team? :eek:

No.

There shouldn't be either; that would by definition mean those examiners weren't practising teachers, soooo ... your core / main examiners wouldn't actually be in contact with schools and students / teaching the curriculum? That could lead to some very strange decisions imho.

lallychops wrote: »

3. A conference has to be held to go back through the marking scheme and clarify any issues.
This is done AT APPEALS time ? Not an ongoing process improvement process in place for this / individual consultation ?

There are conferences before the main exam period. There will be one for each subject for the appeals examiners to (a) refresh the schema for them and (b) address any additional generic issues which only came to light as a result of the appeals sent in.

lallychops wrote: »

4. The schools/students then have a fortnight to return them to the SEC. Why is this not electronic / facsimile driven? Why could the examination department, (instead of shipping papers all around the place) not create verifiable copies and a decent system where appeals could be submitted electronically (this could then be at the discretion of the school, reducing the 2 weeks on a case by case basis in a lot of cases) ???

Personally, I agree that this could be tightened up time-wise.

I don't agree with photocopies / scans though. It's difficult enough to read the original papers sometimes, esp. in something like English where people are writing at a rate of knots, let alone try to properly correct an appeal based on a scan!

Plus transmitting these by email etc. opens up all sorts of issues re: security / confidentiality, though these holes could probably be plugged ... the first is I think the real issue.

lallychops wrote: »

5. prefer that it was skimmed through but returned faster ...
Err, not really, In my view (and that of two other teachers) in my case, my original paper was skimmed through once already, thus leading to the appeal...

And that's the point, you need to be able to rely on the appeal process working, therefore it can't be rushed to a crazy extent.

Of course, the original process should work properly too ... and the reality is that it does in 99 out of a hundred cases, the number of appeals is relatively small (and some are just "chancing my arm" appeals), the number of appeals *upheld* is very small indeed.

And when it doesn't work, there IS a right to appeal.

lallychops wrote: »

Yet, surely you must also see from the perspective of an appeals student that as you explain it, the process is far from efficient.

Yes, of course we can. Ideally, the whole thing should happen more quickly. It's easier said than done though. As pointed out earlier, the problem has been compounded by colleges opening earlier ... not so long ago, people would have missed the first two, at most three weeks of term. Not that difficult to catch up on most courses, esp. as colleges tend to ease students in gently the first couple of weeks.

lallychops wrote: »

We PAY to sit these exams, we PAY for corrections to take place.

To be entirely accurate, you contribute a small proportion of the cost of the exams / corrections ... not saying that means that things shouldn't be done right, just correcting a common error.

lallychops wrote: »

On a pure Service provider > Customer contract, 5 weeks, to review 1 paper, in my view, regardless of staffing, process, bundling, whatever, is not efficient and could be done quicker.

But it's not 5 weeks to review one paper, it's 5 weeks to conduct a whole appeals process for 30+ subjects and X number of papers.

I'm sure the Latin appeals could be handled in half that time, for example, but what would be the use if all the other subjects were not completed?

Should those who got an upgrade in Latin get their results 2 weeks before everyone else?

lallychops wrote: »

Some overall suggestions:
1. Create (and staff) an examinations board with people whose sole job it is to review appealed papers.

So they actually work for 2 weeks a year? Nice job ... I volunteer!!

Apart from prohibitive and wasteful cost to the taxpayer, I would disagree anyway with a system where the core examiners would not be practising teachers, as I said above.

lallychops wrote: »

2. Implement (if not already there) a system that automatically sends papers for review if +- 0.25% in the same timeline as the LC results.

You include those with + 0.25? Interesting!

I do actually agree that papers that close to the cut-off should not go through unchecked ... but while it's not "automatic" at the moment I suspect it doesn't normally happen in practice. Certainly, I corrected HL English, and I never put someone through on that kind of margin.

lallychops wrote: »

3. Implement an electronically based system that enables students to track appeals that would form the sole basis of appeal management. This could then cover such issues as bundling, allocation etc of papers to examiners (see point 1)

And this would speed up the process how?

(Note my objection above to scanning papers and e-transmission.)

lallychops wrote: »

4. Implement a continual process improvement process whereby input from markers is both encouraged and acted upon.

Input from markers is encouraged; whether it's always acted upon I can't say.

That sounds like a line from a business management book, by the way. Usually what happens with those kind of models is that lots of paperwork gets added to the process to be filled in and returned to say that you did what you would have done anyway, thus delaying the process further while the paperwork is filled and checked and filed!

lallychops wrote: »

5. Put the Customer (student) first. Ensure they are fully aware at all times of where their appeal is within the process, who they are able to talk to and when they can expect an outcome (would save a lot of angst and issues and maybe boards conversations such as this???).

"Who they are able to talk to"? The marker? ... not an option, as I'm sure you can see. Some poor eejit in the SEC to volunteer to be ranted at by hundreds of students, even though that won't speed the process up one iota?!

By the way, I'm not gone on the "customer" approach. I've seen a huge emphasis on so-called "customer service" systems in all sorts of businesses over the last decade. The net result is that companies have put in elaborate CS systems which they point to with pride ... and actual customer service has deteriorated drastically!! But ... but ... they have thousands of stats and logs to show how good their customer services system is ... so it has to be good, right?!! Unfortunately, all the work and time and money goes into filling the forms and creating the logs and stats, not into actually helping their customers!

lallychops wrote: »

I am probably wishing for the moon, stars, and oh, maybe throw in the milky way while you're at it huh ??

To an extent. Especially as in my honest opinion some of your ideas would make the system worse / slower, some would be unworkable and some would cost the earth in a scenario where educational spending is under severe pressure as it is.

I would love to see the system improved, but I think it will take someone who knows the system intimately from the inside to identify any possibilities in that respect. I have corrected in it, and I don't see myself as having enough knowledge to make useful suggestions ... apart from agreeing with you that the time for schools to lodge appeals could be tightened.

rainbowtrout

randylonghorn wrote: »

No, RB was suggesting that not everyone just under a cut-off will automatically be marked up simply BECAUSE they are close to the cut-off, especially if the proportion of top grades is already very high relative to other years. An error is a different matter ... if it's not caught at the time, there is an appeals process.

Bear in mind that we as users of this forum don't *know* that there was an error in marking your paper, we only know that you believe there was.

This is exactly what I meant. Just because a student gets 84% does not automatically entitle them to be brought up to 85% and given an A. Some students will always be an 84. If that was the case we might as well do away with the numbers 89, 84, 79, 74, 69 etc because students would always be brought up if they were within 1% of a grade change.

randylonghorn wrote: »

Though I do agree with Deemark that leaving someone sitting 0.25% under a cut-off is not good practice, esp. in English which has (and has to have) an inherent subjectivity no matter how examiners try to be as consistent as possible. It's been a while since I marked LC English, but if I ended up with a total like that I would certainly have been taking a second look.

It might well have been looked at a second time, usually in most subjects papers like that are looked at a second time, BUT sometimes there are just no more marks to give and you cannot justify giving marks for wrong answers. Granted English is subjective and science is factual, but none of us have seen this script, the OP may have been given 84/100 in each section, but that may have been pushing it and the examiner may have been very generous in every instance. Realistically it might have only been worth an 82.

It could also have been the case that there were too many grades in a certain band and the grades were pulled down, which often leaves a student just below the next grade and if they view the script they may end up appealing it thinking they'll get lucky and be brought up.

I've corrected papers where there were way too many high grades and the marking scheme was made stricter and seen students move from a D to an E as well as from A to B.

randylonghorn wrote: »

There aren't the same volume of resources at the disposal of the SEC. Examiners are brought in to do X hundred scripts in ~ 3 weeks, and paid for that. A smaller number of the most experienced examiners do Y scripts each for the appeals process in (I'm guessing) slightly over a week. According to the SEC and the Department, the costs for the process as it is are already way too high ... which, believe me, has more to do with the volume of students / subjects / scripts in the main exam process than what they actually pay examiners per script.

Students often don't realise the cost of the exams and figure that once they've paid their fee that it covers everything. Many students don't even pay fees as they are exempt as medical card holders. It cost €1 million to re-set the English paper last year and it hadn't even been corrected at that stage.

randylonghorn wrote: »

There are conferences before the main exam period. There will be one for each subject for the appeals examiners to (a) refresh the schema for them and (b) address any additional generic issues which only came to light as a result of the appeals sent in.

I don't agree with photocopies / scans though. It's difficult enough to read the original papers sometimes, esp. in something like English where people are writing at a rate of knots, let alone try to properly correct an appeal based on a scan!

Plus transmitting these by email etc. opens up all sorts of issues re: security / confidentiality, though these holes could probably be plugged ... the first is I think the real issue.

There would be so many issues with photocopies and scans, trying to read them would be the least of the examiners worries, the ones written in luminous colours would be the most fun! It's so easy to photoshop, edit information on a computer now that it could very easily be tampered with. The whole idea of lots of loose pages all over the place as well would leave the correcting very messy.

randylonghorn wrote: »

But it's not 5 weeks to review one paper, it's 5 weeks to conduct a whole appeals process for 30+ subjects and X number of papers.

I'm sure the Latin appeals could be handled in half that time, for example, but what would be the use if all the other subjects were not completed?

Should those who got an upgrade in Latin get their results 2 weeks before everyone else?

The point I was making earlier, it would also make a mess of the CAO system where a student could gain 5 points one week and lose them the next if they were downgraded elsewhere, an unfair advantage would be conferred on students who's successful appeals came through first. E.g. two students both on the same point appeal one paper each, the first appeals Music and the second appeals Chemistry. Both are going for a place in Medicine. The music grade comes back a week before the chemistry grade, the student gets their 5 points and is offered a place in medicine. The chemistry grade is also upgraded but now there are no places left. It's not the students fault her subject took longer to be processed. When all grades are released together this situation wouldn't happen, it would go to random selection.

randylonghorn wrote: »

"Who they are able to talk to"? The marker? ... not an option, as I'm sure you can see. Some poor eejit in the SEC to volunteer to be ranted at by hundreds of students, even though that won't speed the process up one iota?!

By the way, I'm not gone on the "customer" approach.

Nope, I agree, the customer isn't always right, the customer is often a pain in the arse. Having somewhere the students could ring in wouldn't speed up the process even if it was someone in the SEC who wasn't correcting the papers because what would happen is if you checked to see how your appeal was getting on in ag science, rang the SEC, they took your exam number, looked in up in their system, saw the paper was allocated to me, rang me to check the status, well first of all I'd be getting pissed off with all the calls.... because students would be calling night, noon and morning if such a service was available and it would take me away from the work I was supposed to be doing and it would introduce a bias into the correcting if I got a call from 'Sharon in the SEC to ask for a status update on exam no : 123456' More than likely I'd be thinking 123456 can go and whistle for their bloody upgrade if I was being harassed that much and I'm sure other teachers would feel the same. Not intentionally, but when you're correcting it's easier to be allowed to get on with it.

It certainly wouldn't slow up the process, if anything it would slow it down and perhaps cause a few problems like I have outlined.

randylonghorn wrote: »

I would love to see the system improved, but I think it will take someone who knows the system intimately from the inside to identify any possibilities in that respect.

If anything the process became more drawn out to facilitate the student. I did the LC in 96 and there was no opportunity to view scripts. You got your grades and that was it. You appealed based on the grade, having no idea if you were near the next grade or not. I imagine because it was done like that, that there was less movement of scripts and conferences and corrections could take place sooner. I'd also hazard a guess that less students appealed as there was a risk their grades/points could go down. I was one of those, I got a C3 in Biology (my best subject), I would have appealed it but I just got the cut off points for my course and couldn't risk my grade dropping so I didn't and I'd say there were many others like me. Plenty of students just got their grades and decided to appeal or not. I'm sure the process was shorter as a result, but not as student friendly.

JayEnnis

Anybody know where I can find my pin?

randylonghorn

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's so easy to photoshop, edit information on a computer now that it could very easily be tampered with. The whole idea of lots of loose pages all over the place as well would leave the correcting very messy.

I assume lallychops meant that the SEC would scan the scripts for appeal though, and send them to the appeals correctors that way (which in itself would take time ... probably lose more time than you would save tbh!).

Plus ... what happens when someone inadvertently skips a page while scanning?!

And how can you double-check that? ... send the scanned / appealed / corrected scripts back to the school a second time?!!! ... with leave to appeal again?!

I think I've just given myself a headache!! >.<

rainbowtrout

randylonghorn wrote: »

I assume lallychops meant that the SEC would scan the scripts for appeal though, and send them to the appeals correctors that way (which in itself would take time ... probably lose more time than you would save tbh!).

Plus ... what happens when someone inadvertently skips a page while scanning?!

And how can you double-check that? ... send the scanned / appealed / corrected scripts back to the school a second time?!!! ... with leave to appeal again?!

I think I've just given myself a headache!! >.<

Can open, worms everywhere!

lallychops

Thanks for the replies to my posts, there are too many to quote & re-quote.

RE a NO to an examiner board / System,
I am sorry but I cannot accept the idea that a system comprising of a proper examinations board and cohesive electronic systems (of some sort) would not ultimately benefit this process by means of accuracy, time and visibiltiy. Making such points as "what happens when someone inadvertently misses a page while scanning" and "can open works everywhere" is what I'm getting at entirely.

A properly considered and designed process that does not predominently rely upon the performance of the individuals that man that process is what is needed. To achieve this, an examinations board is imperative.

In my view, an aparrently wholly manual system that "catches most things" having built into it manual safeguards which include a conference review before any marking / corrections begin (I can only imagine the timelines for that one!) seems madenningly slow & archaic.

RE: Not releasing results on an individual basis
Sorry, I see no issue here. If an error on my paper has been identified and marking meaning I get an extra grade but I've appealed other papers then fair enough, I would not expect to be given my results until all my appeals are in. I do not however see why, if my results are complete I must spend another X amount of weeks doing a course I do not prefer just because a marking process is not completed for others.

RE: The Customer is Not Always Right.
I must admit to being rather incredulous here. I honestly do not really see any relevance as to whether or not a marker / corrector is p1ssed off by being asked if a paper has been done yet. That marker is tasked with a job they signed up for. Whether or not it p1sses them off is between them and their employer, not the CUSTOMER.

Also, this moves to the point of a system, in this case where marks / results should be electronically submitted. And oh, if this would not work then please explain such facilities as the CAO online system, even the LAN at university ? A cohesive, electronic system that gives visibility and traceability is a must.

With regard to payment. The taking and marking of an examination is a paid process, whether or not we pay individually for the whole amount or not (the rest being paid for by taxation), thus it takes the form of a contract. Ironically a kindof "shove it up yer ass if you dare ask wtf takes so long" kind. It's still a contract and as payment has been taken, for whatever part of it, I, on the CUSTOMER side of this contract should to be entitled to an efficient service. Making points about the WHOLE system takes 5+ weeks, not just YOUR paper simply enforces my point that the system is flawed.

JayEnnis

My grade stayed the same, how did everyone else get on?

Aisling1992

Results aren't out yet

AxlRose1992

JayEnnis wrote: »

My grade stayed the same, how did everyone else get on?

Did you get a letter in the post?

zam

My friend rang the school and they told her!

JayEnnis

Aisling1992 wrote: »

Results aren't out yet

Yes they are.

AxlRose1992 wrote: »

Did you get a letter in the post?

Rang the school and got my pin, then checked examinations.ie

zam

No change! Very disappointing..

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

No change either in Irish or French. Very suprised that my Irish didnt go up but I think I'm past the stage of caring anyways.
Wouldn't have gotten me my college place anyways.

AxlRose1992

Has anyone gotten a letter? Because I don't know anyone whose results changed on examinations.ie. Have they definitley been updated?

rainbowtrout

lallychops wrote: »

A properly considered and designed process that does not predominently rely upon the performance of the individuals that man that process is what is needed. To achieve this, an examinations board is imperative.

In my view, an aparrently wholly manual system that "catches most things" having built into it manual safeguards which include a conference review before any marking / corrections begin (I can only imagine the timelines for that one!) seems madenningly slow & archaic.

Because you have never been to a conference you have no idea what goes on there. If there was to be an examinations board comprised of people who were there to mark papers etc, they would not be teaching, regularly when we are debating acceptable answers at the conference you will hear teachers say 'that's not the way the student will phrase it, they will say....' and then we agree on accepted forms of an answer. You would not get this leeway with an exam board who do not teach. I can go into my classroom every September knowing how a student can answer a question and what will be accepted and what won't. It also allows teachers to give feedback on questions and come up with a whole range of answers that an exam board simply won't come up with themselves.

It's no different from lecturers at college or school inspectors coming in telling you how to teach when the reality is that they have never set foot in a classroom themselves. If you want your examination to be graded fairly you need to have teachers correcting it that are actively teaching or have taught the subject.

lallychops wrote: »

RE: Not releasing results on an individual basis
Sorry, I see no issue here. If an error on my paper has been identified and marking meaning I get an extra grade but I've appealed other papers then fair enough, I would not expect to be given my results until all my appeals are in. I do not however see why, if my results are complete I must spend another X amount of weeks doing a course I do not prefer just because a marking process is not completed for others.

So really what you are saying is you don't give a fcuk about the other students who have appealed and are awaiting results in the hope that they'll get another offer of a college place once you get what you want. That's not fair. You also don't have to do a course that you do not prefer. Nobody forces a student to accept an offer.

lallychops wrote: »

RE: The Customer is Not Always Right.
I must admit to being rather incredulous here. I honestly do not really see any relevance as to whether or not a marker / corrector is p1ssed off by being asked if a paper has been done yet. That marker is tasked with a job they signed up for. Whether or not it p1sses them off is between them and their employer, not the CUSTOMER.

Submitting a result and returning a paper to the SEC each time one is completed is not efficient work practice. It is far more efficient to correct a bundle of papers and return all of them together along with the marks. If you are given a week to complete a task, any task, it's not reasonable to expect someone to be harassing you every day to see how it's coming along, that's why you were given a week to do it in the first place.

lallychops wrote: »

Also, this moves to the point of a system, in this case where marks / results should be electronically submitted. And oh, if this would not work then please explain such facilities as the CAO online system, even the LAN at university ? A cohesive, electronic system that gives visibility and traceability is a must.

With regard to payment. The taking and marking of an examination is a paid process, whether or not we pay individually for the whole amount or not (the rest being paid for by taxation), thus it takes the form of a contract. Ironically a kindof "shove it up yer ass if you dare ask wtf takes so long" kind. It's still a contract and as payment has been taken, for whatever part of it, I, on the CUSTOMER side of this contract should to be entitled to an efficient service. Making points about the WHOLE system takes 5+ weeks, not just YOUR paper simply enforces my point that the system is flawed.

You are also assuming that every teacher is computer literate. Not every teacher is. You are also assuming that every teacher has a computer, and I'm sure there are some who do not. That is what would have to be in place for results to be submitted electronically. In a university students and lecturers have computer access. For the CAO, students still have the option of submitting applications on paper if they want to, and students do not have to have a computer at home, they can use the ones in school. Exams are corrected in teachers homes, so the SEC would have to ensure that each teacher had a computer and was computer literate. You would also be looking to set up thousands of profiles to allow correctors submit results. There is a huge turnover of teachers in the corrections. Quite a bit of work there. Could also cause confidentiality issues, shared computers, lost passwords etc.

lallychops wrote: »

With regard to payment. The taking and marking of an examination is a paid process, whether or not we pay individually for the whole amount or not (the rest being paid for by taxation), thus it takes the form of a contract. Ironically a kindof "shove it up yer ass if you dare ask wtf takes so long" kind. It's still a contract and as payment has been taken, for whatever part of it, I, on the CUSTOMER side of this contract should to be entitled to an efficient service. Making points about the WHOLE system takes 5+ weeks, not just YOUR paper simply enforces my point that the system is flawed.

I think it's been pointed out why the system of appeals takes 5 weeks but you don't seem to be interested in equality or fairness, just what benefits you, the individual.

lallychops

fairness...

Quotas of grades...cut off points for the amount of a grades given etc.....is that fair?

Not enough university places for the amount of people who take the leaving cert....is that fair?

The points race.....crushing peoples hopes etc only being 5 points away from courses they have always wanted....and once appealing there is no change because the quota of grades has been filled.....(as has happened with people I know).....is that fair?

The fact that they say we can do whatever we want in life if we work hard enough......not in our system...clearly.....we are only as good as the system wants us to be on the day.....is that fair?

The leaving cert is the result of two years (granted not for all people) hard work and determination and it comes down to one paper...one day....three hours..you have a bad day...something happens......and it's all wasted...granted there is a system in place for these occurrnces however nerves aren't accounted for......is this fair?

If we are unhappy with our overall performance we have to reatake re exams next year as opposed to just a few months.... Not to mention some curriculums change every few years.....is this fair?

The fact that acceptance to universities in other countries actually value personal traits and skills as opposed to results of one exam....is this fair?

Clearly I don't care about fairness....maybe I am out for myself and at the end of the day who isn't......you take what I say personally...as if you created this system and are taking offence to my opinion and issues with it.....I feel for this years leaving certs...if they work hard and do everything in their power to give back the information and play the system....if the grade quota is full they can kiss their dream goodbye for the immediate future...and if as you say they choose not to take the place....what is their viable alternative? Take a year out...may not be financially viable....repeat next year?? Go through it all again?..They face a difficult challenge....but as one comes to realise life isn't fair.....

ihavequestions

Waheey my English went up 2 grades

lallychops

ihavequestions wrote: »

Waheey my English went up 2 grades

congrats

rainbowtrout

lallychops wrote: »

Quotas of grades...cut off points for the amount of a grades given etc.....is that fair?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grading_on_a_curve

Grading on a curve is quite common and not just confined to the Leaving Cert or the Irish educational system. If half of all people who sat English this year got an A, it would not reflect that everyone was of an A standard, it would more likely reflect that the paper set was considerably easier than previous years. Same issue if there is a massive failure rate. Grading on a curve is used for consistency within a population.

lallychops wrote: »

Not enough university places for the amount of people who take the leaving cert....is that fair?

Not everyone who does the Leaving Cert is capable of university level study. Allowing everyone go on to third level doesn't make sense. Universities end up with massive failure or drop out rates or they dumb down their courses so the students they've taken in can pass. I notice that the degree I did 10 years ago requires a student to complete only 5 modules per semester now, where as when I was there it was 6. That quite a number of module cut out of the degree yet the same qualification is being awarded.

lallychops wrote: »

The points race.....crushing peoples hopes etc only being 5 points away from courses they have always wanted....and once appealing there is no change because the quota of grades has been filled.....(as has happened with people I know).....is that fair?

Appeals are not based on the quota. You've just made that up because it sounds good. If they were, there would be no point in the appeals. Students appeal grades every year without having a clue what they are talking about. I read several feedback forms from students this year who think they deserve marks for a question because 'they think it's right' when it's not factually correct and not in the marking scheme in any format.

lallychops wrote: »

The fact that they say we can do whatever we want in life if we work hard enough......not in our system...clearly.....we are only as good as the system wants us to be on the day.....is that fair?

There are other ways to get where you want to go if you are willing to take them, but a lot of students today are only interested in instant gratification. Life is competitive, you don't always get what you want whether it be in the Leaving Cert or elsewhere.

lallychops wrote: »

The leaving cert is the result of two years (granted not for all people) hard work and determination and it comes down to one paper...one day....three hours..you have a bad day...something happens......and it's all wasted...granted there is a system in place for these occurrnces however nerves aren't accounted for......is this fair?

You could say the same about the Olympic Games. And those athletes train for far longer. Do you think Sonia O'Sullivan thought it was fair that she had a crap day in the final of the 5000m in Atlanta ... maybe they should have re-run the race for her.

You're going to be in a lot of situations in life where you only get one chance to get something right and if you don't get it right that time you mightn't get the chance again for quite some time.

lallychops wrote: »

If we are unhappy with our overall performance we have to reatake re exams next year as opposed to just a few months.... Not to mention some curriculums change every few years.....is this fair?

Next years exams are already set. You can find all that information on examinations.ie if you are bothered. There's more to the exam process than just throwing a repeat exam together. Do you think it would make a difference if say you got to repeat this October? You still wouldn't be able to start college until next September. The way our school year is structured doesn't allow for it anyway.

You're looking for more instant gratification. You also have to wait for a lot of things in life. The world doesn't revolve around the Leaving Cert, but you seem to be under the impression that it does. Should the SEC preparations for next years cohort on hold for those that want to repeat?

lallychops wrote: »

The fact that acceptance to universities in other countries actually value personal traits and skills as opposed to results of one exam....is this fair?

It probably isn't but it's the system that we have in Ireland. All systems have their flaws. And while our system does not take personal statements into account, there is no bias in it either, if you get the points, you're in. It doesn't matter where you are from and what extra-curricular activities you are involved in.

lallychops wrote: »

Clearly I don't care about fairness....maybe I am out for myself and at the end of the day who isn't......you take what I say personally...as if you created this system and are taking offence to my opinion and issues with it.....I feel for this years leaving certs...if they work hard and do everything in their power to give back the information and play the system....if the grade quota is full they can kiss their dream goodbye for the immediate future...and if as you say they choose not to take the place....what is their viable alternative? Take a year out...may not be financially viable....repeat next year?? Go through it all again?..They face a difficult challenge....but as one comes to realise life isn't fair.....

I'm not taking your opinions personally, I didn't create the system, but I do an awful lot of work within the exam system so I am giving you the view from the other side, which you seem to have missed.

Taking a year out doesn't have to involve trekking around the world, it can be working locally or doing a Post Leaving Cert course. I have heard few students ever say that taking a year out is not financially viable. College costs money, with or without the grant. Getting in and out of the second and third level education system shouldn't be a race. It's hard to see that in Leaving Cert though. If a student wants a course badly enough and is certain that a career in a particular area is really what they want for their longterm future then a year extra shouldn't make much difference in the general scheme of things. You'll be working long enough... if there are any jobs when you graduate.

Radley90

ihavequestions wrote: »

Waheey my English went up 2 grades

Did u find out from the SEC website or did u get a letter? Also congrats

JayEnnis

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Please don't quote long posts unnecessarily! - RLH

Woah calm down mister, no need to respond to every reply in the thread.

lallychops

@rainbowtrout

You clearly think that this system works and you appear to want to do everything in your power to prove me wrong. For your information the reason I appealed as not because I thought ibwas right......it was because I was advised to appeal due to the fact that it was not marked according to the way the marking scheme was laid out.

My points previously were to highlight the fact that I do care about fairness and other students which you seemed to dispute. I see no point in what ibwould consder debating (which some may consider arguing) with anyone who wishes to take arguments personally to the point of using language which is less than pleasant whilst saying that I honestly do not care about my fellow students or the fairness of the system.

I appreciate some of your points and while it is clear you don't agree with mine I hope you gained something from the views of someone on the other side of the fence.

implausible

lallychops wrote: »

@rainbowtrout

You clearly think that this system works and you appear to want to do everything in your power to prove me wrong. For your information the reason I appealed as not because I thought ibwas right......it was because I was advised to appeal due to the fact that it was not marked according to the way the marking scheme was laid out.

Look, it does work, but unfortunately, it's based on people and people make mistakes. There will always have to be scope for human error. You have been dreadfully unlucky from what I've read, but yours is not the typical experience. The phrase 'hard cases make poor law' springs to mind and the system cannot operate on the assumption that a tiny percentage of students may be inconvenienced in starting college because they were marginally off the points required. What we have in Ireland is a system reliant on people (the marking) and technology (CAO) to determine entrance to college. There is always going to be error, no system is perfect and with the economy the way it is, it's not going to change any time soon.

Anyway, did you get your upgrade?

lallychops

deemark wrote: »

Look, it does work, but unfortunately, it's based on people and people make mistakes. There will always have to be scope for human error. You have been dreadfully unlucky from what I've read, but yours is not the typical experience. The phrase 'hard cases make poor law' springs to mind and the system cannot operate on the assumption that a tiny percentage of students may be inconvenienced in starting college because they were marginally off the points required. What we have in Ireland is a system reliant on people (the marking) and technology (CAO) to determine entrance to college. There is always going to be error, no system is perfect and with the economy the way it is, it's not going to change any time soon.

Anyway, did you get your upgrade?

I know it's not perfect. Nothing can be. Just that I'm very very frustrated by the entire thing. Didn't get the upgrade after all that. 40 euro down but more importantly was looking for those few extra points. Oh well.In the past now anyway. Nothingni can do about it. Just hate to see other people go through this if it turns out wrong. Anyone who got the upgrade clearly deserved it.

TimeToShine

Maths A2 to A1 English B1 to A1...got offered my 1st but I really couldn't be arsed switching at this stage.

rainbowtrout

JayEnnis wrote: »

Woah calm down mister, no need to respond to every reply in the thread.

Myself and lallychops are having a bit of a debate. Any objections???... It's miss by the way.

lallychops wrote: »

@rainbowtrout

You clearly think that this system works and you appear to want to do everything in your power to prove me wrong. For your information the reason I appealed as not because I thought ibwas right......it was because I was advised to appeal due to the fact that it was not marked according to the way the marking scheme was laid out.

My points previously were to highlight the fact that I do care about fairness and other students which you seemed to dispute. I see no point in what ibwould consder debating (which some may consider arguing) with anyone who wishes to take arguments personally to the point of using language which is less than pleasant whilst saying that I honestly do not care about my fellow students or the fairness of the system.

I appreciate some of your points and while it is clear you don't agree with mine I hope you gained something from the views of someone on the other side of the fence.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, just coming at it from a different perspective. You see it from a student's point of view and me from a teacher/examiner point of view. The system has it's flaws but there are more flaws in the system than the ones you perceive, but they are not ones a student can see. I have my gripes as an examiner but it's not about the same things that you have gripes about.

I teach Leaving Certs every year. I attend the review weekend every September and look at papers with students. I see the frustration in their faces when they see how their paper (ag science) has been marked, or annoyance when they realise that the examiner was not at fault. I am frustrated when I see a poorly marked paper because my students paper was corrected by someone who didn't do my student justice. This is rare though. I also know that it was one of the examiners that was at my conference and it annoys me because while I don't know which one it was, I know them all personally. I hate having to tell a student (not one of my own) that the C1 they got in ag science was not because their paper was marked badly but because they could have only got a C in the project and their teacher told them they got an A, or that their grade in their project was possibly brought down by an external examiner and there's nothing they can do about it and no appeal on the written paper will change things and they won't get the 5 points they need for their first choice course. They don't understand why it will take five weeks to get their result back if they appeal it and they don't see what is going on in the background. I am annoyed on behalf of the student whose appeal I am correcting when I see that their paper was poorly corrected (again a very small number of papers) and they deserved more. I am also delighted when I see that they gain enough marks to bring them up a grade and know that they will hopefully be happy with that five extra points and it will get them what they want. I also remember that the teacher that made the mistake is the same as me and is human and had 400 of those papers to correct and due to human error can make a mistake.

lallychops

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Myself and lallychops are having a bit of a debate. Any objections???... It's miss by the way.



I'm not trying to prove you wrong, just coming at it from a different perspective. You see it from a student's point of view and me from a teacher/examiner point of view. The system has it's flaws but there are more flaws in the system than the ones you perceive, but they are not ones a student can see. I have my gripes as an examiner but it's not about the same things that you have gripes about.

I teach Leaving Certs every year. I attend the review weekend every September and look at papers with students. I see the frustration in their faces when they see how their paper (ag science) has been marked, or annoyance when they realise that the examiner was not at fault. I am frustrated when I see a poorly marked paper because my students paper was corrected by someone who didn't do my student justice. This is rare though. I also know that it was one of the examiners that was at my conference and it annoys me because while I don't know which one it was, I know them all personally. I hate having to tell a student (not one of my own) that the C1 they got in ag science was not because their paper was marked badly but because they could have only got a C in the project and their teacher told them they got an A, or that their grade in their project was possibly brought down by an external examiner and there's nothing they can do about it and no appeal on the written paper will change things and they won't get the 5 points they need for their first choice course. They don't understand why it will take five weeks to get their result back if they appeal it and they don't see what is going on in the background. I am annoyed on behalf of the student whose appeal I am correcting when I see that their paper was poorly corrected (again a very small number of papers) and they deserved more. I am also delighted when I see that they gain enough marks to bring them up a grade and know that they will hopefully be happy with that five extra points and it will get them what they want. I also remember that the teacher that made the mistake is the same as me and is human and had 400 of those papers to correct and due to human error can make a mistake.

Agreed.I do believe that you clearly care about students.shame someone with your attitude don't correct my paper the first time. I'd be the first to put my hands up and go ok yeah...my fault...problem is it wasn't

Liveit

Got upgraded and now i got my course , too late to start now i think but its nice to know its there for me

ihavequestions

Radley90 wrote: »

Did u find out from the SEC website or did u get a letter? Also congrats

The school I was in rang me! And I collected the appeal thing today!

JayEnnis

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Please don't quote long posts unnecessarily! - RLH

Well maybe take it to Pm's, It's clogging the thread up and frankly the majority of people reading this thread want to know how each other got on with the appeals.

Maybe_Memories

Didn't go up in HL Maths.
Still an A2, despite being 1 mark from an A1.
Oh well. I'm beyond caring.

randylonghorn

JayEnnis wrote: »

Well maybe take it to Pm's, It's clogging the thread up and frankly the majority of people reading this thread want to know how each other got on with the appeals.

And frankly, the title of the thread is "Appeals", and the discussion is relevant.

Please don't back-seat moderate.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

randylonghorn wrote: »

And frankly, the title of the thread is "Appeals", and the discussion is relevant.

Please don't back-seat moderate.

Yes but it was aimed at students that appealed to share whether or not they got an upgrade, not a discussion to decide whether the appeals process is ridiculous or not. Outside of the 3 that were arguing I dont think anyone else cared about ye're frivolous discussion. There is an off-topic thread which I thought would have been more suitable.