Fair deal for siblings in land transfer?

Injuryprone

I will soon be getting the home farm transferred into my own name. It's an average sized dairy farm that's a bit run down and needs a bit of investment over the coming few years. For the past number of years, I've been doing the majority of the work on the farm part-time as the parents are getting on. My brother and sister have no interest (nor ever had any interest) in the farm.

It's now at the stage where there's talk of the land transfer, and the question of what they should get out of it has come up. Obviously, they are each going to get a site off the land, no problem with that.

My parents are of the view that as well as the sites, I should be paying them as well. My mother thinks that I should lease the land from them (my parents) for 5 years before getting it and they will then divide that cash between my brother and sister. My dad thinks I should get the land now, but that I should pay my brother and sister €4,000 each for the next 30 years:eek:. Obviously I have been a bit taken aback by this, and I get the feeling that they're both overestimating the income that there is off of an average dairy farm (not to mind what it will be in 10 years time!). I do appreciate that I would be getting the dwellinghouse which would be saving me a mortgage etc. which is worth a good bit.

I don't know what (if anything) my brother and sister expect to get out of it.

I would like to find out how other people have dealt with this as I would like to get a fair deal for all sides and I don't want it to look like I'm being selfish or mean or whatever, and I definately don't want to fall out with anyone or have any resentment out there. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

P.s. I don't even know what the tax implications of any of the above plans are as these are just preliminary informal discussions really.

whelan1

i have gone through all this , some of the suggestions put to me where unreal:eek: felt i should walk away from it.... if you are to pay money to your siblings , what happens if the milk price is crap again , where will you get the money ? i suggest you get a seperate agri advisor/ solicitor to go through the pros and cons tbh if your siblings are getting a site that is enough , why should you have to work to keep them well off:mad: i pay my parents a sum each month - which has been substantially reduced due to the poor income , they know the pressure i am under:rolleyes:... are you under 35 ? i did the lease for 5 years before it was handed over to me ... also you say you wont have a mortgage but if you are paying your parents money it would be like one....

blue5000

How much did the farm make last year? I bet there wasn't enough to be so generous to your brother and sister after everything was paid. A site is enough in my opinion.

whelan1

a major sticking point to be aware of is nursing home fees ... god forbid what happens if one or both of your parents are in a nursing home , they could be there for 20 years :eek: who will pay

kay 9

+1 on above, you will have to pay unless you have the property for 5 years or more in your name.

whelan1

i got a second solicitor to go through everything and it really opened my eyes , the wording of the agreement was very open ... now dont get me wrong i will contribute to my parents care but not to the level of bankruptcy

Belongamick

It has been touched on already but not alone are you inheriting the farm but you are inheriting the day to day care of your parents in their golden years. This can be very difficult at times and can be more difficult if you have plans of your own to settle down, build a house next door etc.
My brother in law's situation is a case in point, he lives on the family farm, built a house next door has 4 kids of his own. He runs the farm 50% of the time and has a full time job the other 50%, Both his parents are alive and have had medical issues the past five years. Trips to doctors, hospitals, physio etc are every second day. Top that with an uncle who is terminally ill the past 10 years (medics can't figure out why he is still alive!) who needs help from time to time. To quote my brother in law 'It was the dear site!'.
All other siblings are away and visit ocassionally.
How does this apply to your situation? I would be very reluctant to have to pay any siblings anything for giving them the freedom to do their own thing. You have shown your committment to the farm and your parents welfare over the past few years. We all get on in years over time and not having your parents on their own should provide great peace of mind for all other siblings - without you being there some form of home help would have to be provided and the land would have to be rented.

ihatetractors

I'll be in a similar situation in a few years, 3 sisters not an care in the world for the farm. I work it with the auld fella in between my own partime job/college(poor student).

5live

If there is anything in life with an almost cast iron guarantee to open cracks in a family into raging chasms it is land transfer. It is great that you are getting the house but will a prospective spouse be willing to move in with your parents and if not will there be enough income to support a mortgage or half a mortgage on a new house? And not alone who is responsible for nursing fees for your parents but, god forbid, funeral fees too. Will your siblings have the right to sell the sites in years to come if they dont build themselves? And will they retain rights of residence on the home? I am not trying to frighten you but these are just some issues on my transfer alone. And paying money for 30 years is not enforceable. The limit is 7 years i believe. But the idea that it came up kind of leads me to believe that your parents believe the farm is there to provide for the children at the expense of the farmer. Sorry if that came out heavily but unless the farm is absouutely huge that is a non runner in my opinion anyway. Congratulations too on joining the ranks of the underappreciated. If you have any questions just ask. There is lots of experience on the forum to help. And the advice on getting advice from a solicitor or even a teagasc advisor who has experience of transfers is sound advice

whelan1

my parents moved to a new bungalow a few hundred yards from the farm house and thankfully are healthy:p but you never know what is round the corner , also every family has at least 1 member who likes to stir crap and they will feel hard done by no matter what

5live

Even in families with only one child:D

zetorman

If I was you I would forget about the family home. Let your parents keep that and continue to live there and let them dispose of it any way they want when their day is done. I presume you are still single and if you ever marry you will need your own house anyway. If your siblings get a site each its not a bad deal. I would be reluctant to enter into any other type of payment to them. perhaps you could suggest that the family home be willed to them. Good Luck !!

JohnBoy

zetorman wrote: »

If I was you I would forget about the family home. Let your parents keep that and continue to live there and let them dispose of it any way they want when their day is done. I presume you are still single and if you ever marry you will need your own house anyway. If your siblings get a site each its not a bad deal. I would be reluctant to enter into any other type of payment to them. perhaps you could suggest that the family home be willed to them. Good Luck !!

totally agree, unless it's a huge farm then the value of a few sites, and the family home probably adds up pretty close to the ag value of the land.



I'm of the opinion that siblings should get their site, and if they want to sell it they should be let do so, if they've no plans to return home it's useless to them otherwise.


If there's to be any annual payments to anyone then imho the only way they should be defined is as a % of post tax profit.

if the farm is making money then fair enough, but if you're struggling, or investing to grow it you cant be paying people a fixed sum.


best of luck with it. and remain calm at all times.

Muckit

Hi

I'm quite shocked to hear that it is seems to be common that a son/daughter having inherited a farm has had to pay other siblings a sum of money.....why? If a sibling gets a good non farming job do they paythey're lesser paid siblings the difference???

I'm prehaps very naive. My father more than told me that the farm is mine when he decides to retire. He's still relatively young so it's a bit down the road. It's a wet farm of some 45acres, so any 'deals' to be done with siblings would cause me to walk away, after transfer fees etc etc I'd have nothing....

Cran

Muckit wrote: »

Hi

I'm quite shocked to hear that it is seems to be common that a son/daughter having inherited a farm has had to pay other siblings a sum of money.....why? If a sibling gets a good non farming job do they paythey're lesser paid siblings the difference???

I'm prehaps very naive. My father more than told me that the farm is mine when he decides to retire. He's still relatively young so it's a bit down the road. It's a wet farm of some 45acres, so any 'deals' to be done with siblings would cause me to walk away, after transfer fees etc etc I'd have nothing....

Would agree I was transferred a substantail farm and never was any expectation from my siblings to get anything, each of them got a site alright. But anything else was never in the frame. Find it very strange that people would given money from for something they have no interest in and no input to. ever stranger that theres an expectation to have to provide it...

whelan1

are your siblings currently getting 4k a year from your parents ? what profits is your dad making now? I assume your parents put your siblings through college etc if so should they not be contributing to your parents care ? also do your parents have a pension or any other income that will keep them going - like phone masts , rent etc

maidhc

Paying anyone 4k a year for 30 years is daft and will finish in the high court. These things need to be sorted once and for all at the point of transfer... if the farm isn't worth getting a 240k mortgage on (8*30), then walk.

If the farm is worth paying €240k for, then get a loan and give it to your parents and see what they do. It is much easier to deal with banks than siblings.

mikemac

Similar situation in my home.

One brother is getting the farm, he's welcome to it.
Sure wouldn't it be worse if two or more were looking to get the farm :eek:

The rest of use are getting sites.
I'm extremly happen with a site. God knows the farm doesn't make enough profit to make payments to everyone.

I'm sure it's been raised before but maybe OP, your siblings will take a site instead of money.

A good local solicitor will have seen many cases like yours, there is nearly always disputes. Get some professional advice

Min

That all sounds very messy - OP.

If they have no interest they should get nothing apart from a site each and leave it at that, you will have a business to run and you need the money to improve the farm - not waste it on siblings who have no interest or who will not be playing an active part in the farm.

Your parents should think sensibly, do it cleanly, a straight transfer, provisions can be put in for the sites but this €4,000 a year for 30 years times two is simply ridiculous.

I was lucky, my parents gave me the farm and house, with a simply provision that they and my sister had the right to live there, my parents until they die and my sister until she married.
Everything worked out fine and no one complained. I don't get why some families want to make a whole lot of work and build up tensions between family members when it is totally unnecessary.

Your parents should know better and should be trying to make it as easy as possible for you, not be putting a noose around your neck.

Keep it as simple as possible, get the land transferred to you as you don't know what will happen to them in the future, get some simple provisions put in that suits everyone but no way would I pay a sibling €4,000 for nothing, you have to live too.

Good luck with it, I hope reason wins out.

Muckit

Min wrote: »

That all sounds very messy - OP.

If they have no interest they should get nothing apart from a site each and leave it at that, you will have a business to run and you need the money to improve the farm - not waste it on siblings who have no interest or who will not be playing an active part in the farm.

Your parents should think sensibly, do it cleanly, a straight transfer, provisions can be put in for the sites but this €4,000 a year for 30 years times two is simply ridiculous.

I was lucky, my parents gave me the farm and house, with a simply provision that they and my sister had the right to live there, my parents until they die and my sister until she married.
Everything worked out fine and no one complained. I don't get why some families want to make a whole lot of work and build up tensions between family members when it is totally unnecessary.

Your parents should know better and should be trying to make it as easy as possible for you, not be putting a noose around your neck.

Keep it as simple as possible, get the land transferred to you as you don't know what will happen to them in the future, get some simple provisions put in that suits everyone but no way would I pay a sibling €4,000 for nothing, you have to live too.

Good luck with it, I hope reason wins out.

Very sound advice indeed;)

Injuryprone

Thanks to everyone for all the replies, all much appreciated. Good to hear that I wasn't being irrational in thinking I'd be getting a raw deal. Thanks for all the suggestions, I think the % of profit sounds like a possibility.

Much to mull over over the next while and I'm not actually all that worried about it, as I think it will work out fairly in the end. We do all get on really well and I just think my parents want to do right by all of us and give each of us the best start that they can.

To be fair to my poor dad (his idea is getting an awful lambasting!), there was a bit of logic behind his idea. If he decides to split the farm between the 3 of us and I was to lease the other two-thirds off them (80ac) then it'd imagine it would cost more than 8k/annum. Also I think he was saddled with a payment of around £30k over x no. of years back in the 70's to my uncle....dunno how that compares? Where I think his rational falls down is that the return from farming compared to other industries has changed a bit since then!

Muckit

Injuryprone wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for all the replies, all much appreciated. Good to hear that I wasn't being irrational in thinking I'd be getting a raw deal. Thanks for all the suggestions, I think the % of profit sounds like a possibility.

Much to mull over over the next while and I'm not actually all that worried about it, as I think it will work out fairly in the end. We do all get on really well and I just think my parents want to do right by all of us and give each of us the best start that they can.

To be fair to my poor dad (his idea is getting an awful lambasting!), there was a bit of logic behind his idea. If he decides to split the farm between the 3 of us and I was to lease the other two-thirds off them (80ac) then it'd imagine it would cost more than 8k/annum. Also I think he was saddled with a payment of around £30k over x no. of years back in the 70's to my uncle....dunno how that compares? Where I think his rational falls down is that the return from farming compared to other industries has changed a bit since then!

Forget about all these figures and money. It's easy pull figures out of the air or revert to the past which is exactly that..... in the past.

I feel that your father seems to be burdening ye children unnecessarily. It's his farm at the moment so HE needs to step up and decide that if he wants to see it farmed by one of his family in the future that in today's world, only ONE of you can get it. The others get a site. Simple as.

Horace

Do you get paid for your "part time" farming right now or is that being taken for granted . Could you talk to both your brother and sister to find out what they want as maybe they have plans to live and work else where , if that is so maybe to pay them the value of a site might suit them much better and they could put a mobile home for holidays on the farm you could charge then a small ground rent that way you be in control of all your holding. im saying this as i know of a family who gave their daughter a site she build a house there as she was working locally but she changed jobs and moved away she rented the house out and its now up for sale the family could end up with god knows who living next to the farmyard all this could have been avoided if they had talked things through a bit at the very least the house should have been build away from the farmyard so i advise you to be carefull where the sites are located within the farm as they may affect your use of the land around the new houses . Also how easy is it to get planning in your area?

maidhc

Injuryprone wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for all the replies, all much appreciated. Good to hear that I wasn't being irrational in thinking I'd be getting a raw deal. Thanks for all the suggestions, I think the % of profit sounds like a possibility.

Much to mull over over the next while and I'm not actually all that worried about it, as I think it will work out fairly in the end. We do all get on really well and I just think my parents want to do right by all of us and give each of us the best start that they can.

To be fair to my poor dad (his idea is getting an awful lambasting!), there was a bit of logic behind his idea. If he decides to split the farm between the 3 of us and I was to lease the other two-thirds off them (80ac) then it'd imagine it would cost more than 8k/annum. Also I think he was saddled with a payment of around £30k over x no. of years back in the 70's to my uncle....dunno how that compares? Where I think his rational falls down is that the return from farming compared to other industries has changed a bit since then!

• There is a difference (in fact and law) in getting a farm from an uncle as opposed to from parents.
• DO NOT get into an annual payment system. It is doomed to fail. (I say this as a solicitor believe it or not!)
• If your siblings have never had no interest in the farm, the time when it is being divided is not the time to come to the trough (pardon the pun!).
• If your siblings have decent jobs and are catered for, the most logical thing for all concerned is to hand the farm over, perhaps subject to certain conditions in favour of your parents, but that should be it.
• If you can get a loan to wash everything out with a lump sum and get clean title, do it.
• If you have worked unpaid on the farm in the expectation of getting more than your siblings who did nothing you may have rights.

Shauny2010

I've heard that old siblings argument before, how they've no interest or never did anything on the farm.
I can tell you its a bit much to expect to get a farm for nothing, why not sell it or get it valued then if you want the farm let you pay them off there share.
Be fair not greedy

maidhc

Shauny2010 wrote: »

I've heard that old siblings argument before, how they've no interest or never did anything on the farm.
I can tell you its a bit much to expect to get a farm for nothing, why not sell it or get it valued then if you want the farm let you pay them off there share.
Be fair not greedy

A farm should be valued according to its earning potential, not its capital value.

jfh

Forget about all these figures and money. It's easy pull figures out of the air or revert to the past which is exactly that..... in the past.

I feel that your father seems to be burdening ye children unnecessarily. It's his farm at the moment so HE needs to step up and decide that if he wants to see it farmed by one of his family in the future that in today's world, only ONE of you can get it. The others get a site. Simple as.

think Muckit offers very sound advice, think your father needs to take charge of the situation and make decisions. it's all about scalability for the future, you'd have to consider remaining part time if it's split.
you seem to be a rational good natured person and you can see both sides of the problem so hopefully it'll all work out well. at least you get along with the rest of them, that's a big bonus.

Shauny2010

maidhc wrote: »

A farm should be valued according to its earning potential, not its capital value.

Wishful thinking

pakalasa

Injuiryprone,

The quicker you sort this out with your Dad the better. Believe me, should your Dad pass away suddenly, things will be 10 times harder with your Mam. Sad to say, but I've been there. It's like dealing with a child at times.:mad:

You do all the work and your siblings, who don't lift a finger get €4k. Reality check Kid!

They should be more than happy with a site.

maidhc

Shauny2010 wrote: »

Wishful thinking

That is the view of most Teagasc advisors. Otherwise the farm inevitably has to be sold.

Shauny2010

pakalasa wrote: »

Injuiryprone,

The quicker you sort this out with your Dad the better. Believe me, should your Dad pass away suddenly, things will be 10 times harder with your Mam. Sad to say, but I've been there. It's like dealing with a child at times.:mad:

You do all the work and your siblings, who don't lift a finger get €4k. Reality check Kid!

They should be more than happy with a site.

the old siblings story again

tommylimerick

i think if the farm is in one parcel only then one person should get that
if they haven t been working it then they should be willing some percentage of it s market value to siblings . what percent i don t know
these kind of situations can cause a lot of trouble within families
i am 33 and have worked the family farm since leaving school 15 years ago and have leased the farm from my mum for last 7 years
i still don t own any of it nor have i saved much money either
what pisses me off though is that my brother who has hardly ever worked a day in his life is going to get a better deal than me
he is going to get the family home and about 50% as much land as me
i remember someone at teagasc told me to discuss what i would inheret before i commited myself to staying at home full time but alas my mum is extremly vague and also plays favourites and has nothing but sympathy for my brother
this all really annoys me hope this helps you

johngalway

If I were offered Dads farm under those conditions, as much as I do want it, I'd refuse it. 8k a year is a lot of money to be shelling out and I know the profit he's making at the moment. With the changes coming up I'd be a fool to accept that deal.

Obviously your Dads farm will be different but I'd tell him straight. Could he support a family, keep up a mortgage (if you decided to get the house redone?), pay the bills and improve stock and farm in general starting out each year at -8k?

pakalasa

The problem with a farm is, as we all know only too well, is that it's asset value is big while it's earning value is very low. Unless you're working it yourself, you cant appreciate this. So someone, a sibling, looking at it from the outside thinks, that farm's worth half a million I should be entitled to some of it.

whelan1

pakalasa wrote: »

The problem with a farm is, as we all know only too well, is that it's asset value is big while it's earning value is very low. Unless you're working it yourself, you cant appreciate this. So someone, a sibling, looking at it from the outside thinks, that farm's worth half a million I should be entitled to some of it.

the thought that goes through my head is to say to your siblings , you're welcome to it ... let me know how you get on and the YOU want a share of the money they make ... they wouldn't be long shutting up

5live

I think pakalasa hit the nail on the head. When you are working the farm practically the last thing you think of is its value. How many times have you been in a pub or out and its been thrown across your face 'how are you complaining look at how much your farm is worth'. From experience it is difficult to have the money you have given to your siblings thrown back in you face like you should change your car or go on holidays when you have just shelled out a few grand to pay for theirs. The higher your responsibilities towards your siblings then the higher the level of resentment towards them when you are struggling to pay bills and banks imo. Your first job should be to get professional advice and if the sums dont add up then you have a difficult decision to make. You only get one chance to get it right so do all you can to keep everyone happy INCLUDING YOURSELF

whelan1

ye , there was an old man in our local pub - now dead- anytime i would go in he would announce " here comes the millionaire" now we have development land but we never sold it, my reply was always do i look like one ?

bbam

I'd suspect that since your Dad has suggested this €8K payment he hasn't been keeping an eye on how much the farm has been earning/loosing year on year..

We've been going through this exercise recently and it was a painful process when the realisation hit that it was loosing money rather than earning..

My brother who does no farm work (only draw bales in when contractor is here to see him) just cannot understand why we are changing the way things are run.

It might be worth ensuring he is up to date with simple farm accounts..

whelan1

i am lucky that my parents have reduced the payments in light of the current crap financial situation but i am still willing to pay towards their upkeep, they cant live on fresh air

maidhc

whelan1 wrote: »

i am lucky that my parents have reduced the payments in light of the current crap financial situation but i am still willing to pay towards their upkeep, they cant live on fresh air

I think parents are much easier to deal with than siblings.

basilbuster

Farmers are the poorest millionaires about. My father educated my 2 sisters to the highest which wasnt cheap and signed over the farm to me. They get a site each if they ever want to come back home 2 live and will get wotever monies is left when he dies. I have "got my getings" im afraid. Forget the 8k my friend. Totally unsustainable.

skyliner

Well,
Have just got myself into a family farm disagreement.
Had been working off farm for many years but always wanted to take over the family farm. Got made redundant about 2 years ago and was sure this would be the chance to work on the family farm as I had just got married and built a house. There was still no talk of me coming home to work on the farm and my only option was to go abroad leaving my wife at home.
My father said to me that if I got this work for another year he would then retire. Any time I would even mention me taking over it was just ignored even more so by my mother.
I went abroad for a year to work leaving my wife at home. I came home last December and was sure it would happen then but nothing had changed and they were pushing again for me to find work. I got an offer to go abroad again but did not want to as my wife was now expecting our first child but again my parents pushed for me to go. I didnt go and luckily got work here. I am not sure how long this work will last so inorder to try and get some discussion going I did up a sort of a business plan outlining my expansion plans and projected figures.
It didnt go down well and ended in an argument with my mother.
Mainly that the amount I put in for my fathers time was not enough, there was not enough for them to live on, she would want the SFP, I would have to lease the land. She said that all I could expect if it was ever to happen was to get a paid wage (and the amount she expects me to live on, pay a mortage, bills and rear a family is unacceptable also). There was no discussion of the plan looks good but there a few things that need looking at she just completely went off the deep end. My father was not there and not sure what his outlook was.
Dont want to fall out with them but if I get made redundant now my only option will then be to emigrant and bring my family with me.
How much is a reasonable figure to allow for them considering I would be paying all their bills fuel, electricity etc. Any other advice would be appreciated as I can see this getting nasty.

whelan1

would they have any other income . what is their income at the minute... is there any other siblings interested in the farm ? they can not expect you to wait around forever .. i would have a do or die discussion with the 2 of them that way you know where you stand and you wont be left in limbo any longer

Username John

Have to agree with Whelan, do or die discussion, cant be waiting around.

skyliner wrote: »

Had been working off farm for many years but always wanted to take over the family farm. Got made redundant about 2 years ago and was sure this would be the chance to work on the family farm as I had just got married and built a house.

Had you been working away from home? Or were you working off farm, but still helping in the mornings, evenings, weekends, etc?

skyliner

Am only son, have always helped out on farm weekends, holidays. Do help my father with decisions such as reseeding, what feeds to buy etc
He is in his late 60s and has a full time farm hand helping him (who will have to be made redundant). His income at the moment would be profit from the farm (dairy & beef), but unlike me would have no mortage and Im sure they have a few quid put aside and a pension plan. I am at an age now where I dont want to be working for someone else. Want to expand the farm to build somethig for my sons future and hopefully I wont be as set in my ways when he shows some interest in taking over!

whelan1

skyliner wrote: »

Am only son, have always helped out on farm weekends, holidays. Do help my father with decisions such as reseeding, what feeds to buy etc
He is in his late 60s and has a full time farm hand helping him (who will have to be made redundant). His income at the moment would be profit from the farm (dairy & beef), but unlike me would have no mortage and Im sure they have a few quid put aside and a pension plan. I am at an age now where I dont want to be working for someone else. Want to expand the farm to build somethig for my sons future and hopefully I wont be as set in my ways when he shows some interest in taking over!

you say you are the only son .. i have 2 brothers and two older sisters so i would basically be last in line to get the farm but i have it:cool: so sort it out sooner rather than later

blue5000

Ah whelan you must have been Daddy's favourite!!

Skyliner, it sounds like your parents aren't ready to retire yet. Have you tried talking to a solicitor to see if there is some way that all of ye can be happy?

Sounds like your mother has a few big issues, maybe she's afraid what will happen in a few years after you start farming, maybe the pension fund your parents had is after shrinking over the last couple of yrs. It's not simple, every farm family has to go through it.

whelan1

another bone of contention is if god forbid your marriage breaks down ... your parents wouldnt want to see the farm split etc , this has to be taken into consideration too

snowman707

I have been following this thread with interest but from a different angle than most of you, yep, i'm one of the cranky "auld fellas" who must soon decide what way we will pass the farm etc,

Hopefully i will get a couple of years but it is a matter that will have to be addressed

I won't comment on anything and there have been some very valid points raised, but i will say be very careful with long term borrowing (if you are lucky enough to secure it these days)

years seems to fly like months and the couple of toddlers (4 in my case) will soon turn into money scavengering teenagers , colleges fees, transport, accommodation, vhi dental, doctor, car insurance to mention a few.


whelan's post re marriage break down , is very true also, happened my cousin's son, house built on the farm , he had to move back in with his parents and also pay maintenance


any how it's late.. best of luck to all !!

adne

This is not a topic that can be detailed inputs from various by standers.
I think each situation is different and a number of variables come into play.

Your best bet is to talk with the people involved and start the ball rolling and find out where u stand

bridie02

cant fig out how to post a new thread so hoping this will be viewed!! my husband has been leasing the farm off his parents for past 8 years and has done major work cleaning it up and increasing livestock. prob is his parents never talk about finally signing it over and i heard recently if land is not signed over by age 35 there can be problems. he will be 35 in march. anyone know have i taken this up wrong?