Latest Farce From The Greens

Lenny Lovett

So John Gormless says now we need a National Government. Is there nothing these clowns won't do to cling to power. Far better they called an election and let us decide who Governs us. Democratically...

OhNoYouDidn't

Governement wants to go full term shocker...

Why is it the Greens job to pull down the Goverment? Surely your ire should be directed at the opposition? Or the same invective at the FF backbenches?

Nijmegen

Greens are the path of least resistance to a general election.

Opposition can't bring down government, particularly while the government continues to hold off on 3 by-elections that would help do so.

Fianna Fail is a party that has express interest in clinging to power at all costs.

Greens are a party who supposedly have higher morals and standards, and could move en bloc to end the government.

But so would end their term in government, and that's more important than what the people want.

Lenny Lovett

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Why is it the Greens job to pull down the Goverment?

1. So that they no longer contribute to the farce that this Government has become.
2. So that they may redeem some morsel of credibility as serious Political players.
3. So that they may retain some slight chance of survival as a Political Party.

OhNoYouDidn't

Nijmegen wrote: »

But so would end their term in government, and that's more important than what the people want.

Exactly. Would I prefer the greens to pull the plug? Of course. Is it their 'job' to do so? Not at all.

OhNoYouDidn't

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

1. So that they no longer contribute to the farce that this Government has become.
2. So that they may redeem some morsel of credibility as serious Political players.
3. So that they may retain some slight chance of survival as a Political Party.

I don't disagree that its the right and politically expedient thing to do.

I'm questioning the idea that they have some form of moral compulsion to do so.

johngalway

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Governement wants to go full term shocker...

Why is it the Greens job to pull down the Goverment? Surely your ire should be directed at the opposition? Or the same invective at the FF backbenches?

Because the Greens are part of and support the Government with their Daíl votes, as do the FF backbenchers.

Why you'd direct ire towards the opposition baffles me. They would bring down the Government tomorrow if they had enough votes in the Daíl.

Scofflaw

Lenny, can I draw your attention to the Zero Tolerance sticky and to the forum charter? Two lines of invective doesn't constitute political discussion.

moderately,
Scofflaw

OhNoYouDidn't

johngalway wrote: »

Because the Greens are part of and support the Government with their Daíl votes, as do the FF backbenchers.

Why you'd direct ire towards the opposition baffles me. They would bring down the Government tomorrow if they had enough votes in the Daíl.

So why is he picking on the Greens and not FF... Thats my core point. Why the double standard?

I mentioned the opposition because it is them who should have pulled the government down one way or the other, not the government itself

Darsad

The only reason I could see this clown looking for a national gov is because he thinks that if there were a national gov the blame may be shared across more parties at the next GE. Fortunately for the country the electorate wont be so stupid and the greens will be assigned to the history books next GE national gov or not. He can always go plant some vegetables with his 3 million plus pension.

murphaph

Darsad wrote: »

The only reason I could see this clown looking for a national gov is because he thinks that if there were a national gov the blame may be shared across more parties at the next GE. Fortunately for the country the electorate wont be so stupid and the greens will be assigned to the history books next GE national gov or not. He can always go plant some vegetables with his 3 million plus pension.

It's funny that people always want to consign the minority party in a coalition with FF to the history books. Why don't we just consign poxy FF to the history books instead? Because we are a feckin gombeen nation...if we weren't, we wouldn't be electing the likes of B Ahern, J H Rae, P Flynn, B C Flynn, M Lowry etc. etc. etc. to Dail Eireann.

We have one of the stupidest electorates in western Europe my friend. Our "governance" proves it!

rodento

Its a good way to get Richard Bruton into government with out the clowns of kenny, joan and co:D

gandalf

The only way to have a proper National government is after a General election. If John Gormley feels that the current situation is beyond them then he should end his parties participation in the Government and force an election. That way the people will have a say in the makeup of this National government.

Ddad

Am I missing something? The greens rae a minority party in a government. They have been in power for almost three years of a five year term. It is not arguesd that the majority party in this government are the architects of the current woes of the country. A party that has been widely and still is widely supported by the voters of Ireland. Any of the recent red sea polls have shown that FF incredibly still enjoy support with up to a third of the electorate.

This isn't the x factor. The government has a five year term. I don't like this much but it provides more stability politically that annual coalitions one remebers from the eighties. I didn't vote for this government but a majority of us did with the full knowledge of the consequences of our votes. The regular "the greens are loonies and the government should end" tirades are tiresome. We got what we paid for. We have always got what we paid for, Lowry, Cowen, Shanahan, Healy............etc.

OhNoYouDidn't

gandalf wrote: »

The only way to have a proper National government is after a General election. If John Gormley feels that the current situation is beyond them then he should end his parties participation in the Government and force an election. That way the people will have a say in the makeup of this National government.

And he clearly doesn't. He feels they can do more good in government than out. I don't agree, but as murph said, this idea that its always the partners fault and never FF's is baffling.

LostinBlanch

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So why is he picking on the Greens and not FF... Thats my core point. Why the double standard?

Eh . . . . . because Gormley came out with a call today for a national government. Nobody from FF has made that call today.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Why the double standard?

Absolutely no double standard at all. For years the greens had set themselves up as being the only party with clean hands mouthing off about corruption in politics. Indeed, that was one of their unique selling points - remember Gormley's now infamous Planet Bertie speech? Sadly that has been shown to be nothing but hypocritical cant as the first chance he got, Gormley led them into becoming staunch fully paid up members of Planet Bertie. So when people who bought into their lies call them up on it, it's hardly double standards. Well maybe it is in Gormley's section of Planet Bertie. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, in the real world, the greatest transfer of wealth from the people of Ireland into a few mega rich* hands continues apace. David McWilliiams (like him or hate him) is right on the money, we are close to the final stages of selling our sovereignty to protect Anglo & Irish Nationwide bondholders. He also outlined further in a debate with Mary Hanafin Radio 1 (at the weekend I think) the mechanism how this is happening and how the elite are going to benefit, despite the horrific costs to citizens of this state. Mary Hanafin described such behaviour as "treason."

The Greens are supporters of these actions. I believe they will do anything, and I mean absolutely anything to stay in power as long as they can, no matter what cost to the state. I wish they would find their conscience and act accordingly and pull the plug on this Godawful administration. Give us an election and let the people decide what direction they want to take. Sadly I don't think this is going to happen - not if we can take Gormley's call to circumvent elections at face value.

* apologies for sounding like a member of the SWP, or whatever they're calling themselves these days, I'm not, but the above analysis is spot on IMO.

EDIT: I'll leave you with this quote from McWilliams

Logic says don't sacrifice your sovereignty to bail out the hyper-rich, democracy says it is unfair to penalise the poor for the mistakes of the rich. What do you think?

PeterIanStaker

I'm looking forward to consigning the Greens to the history books next GE. Course I'd love if FF followed suit but people are too entrenched. Anyway, Gormless is just trying to save face, its merely hot air.

johngalway

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So why is he picking on the Greens and not FF... Thats my core point. Why the double standard?

Well, I pick on both of them, and the independents.

Greens may be seen as being more honourable that FF, who aren't. So perhaps the OP see's asking the Greens to do the decent thing as having a better chance than being laughed out of it by FF.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I mentioned the opposition because it is them who should have pulled the government down one way or the other, not the government itself

How?

Seriously, not having a go.

The Opposition don't have the votes to push them. The Government don't have the decency to go. The people are too self involved to do much of anything. The Opposition isn't in a position to change the Government, yet, though things are heading in the right direction, unfortunately very slowly.

BeardyFunzo

I wish I could ask him why if a national government is so great why don't we have one all the time. Just when I thought i couldnt hate that guy any more....

murphaph

Ddad wrote: »

Am I missing something? The greens rae a minority party in a government. They have been in power for almost three years of a five year term. It is not arguesd that the majority party in this government are the architects of the current woes of the country. A party that has been widely and still is widely supported by the voters of Ireland. Any of the recent red sea polls have shown that FF incredibly still enjoy support with up to a third of the electorate.

This isn't the x factor. The government has a five year term. I don't like this much but it provides more stability politically that annual coalitions one remebers from the eighties. I didn't vote for this government but a majority of us did with the full knowledge of the consequences of our votes. The regular "the greens are loonies and the government should end" tirades are tiresome. We got what we paid for. We have always got what we paid for, Lowry, Cowen, Shanahan, Healy............etc.

Exactly right...

I am a fellow non-FF voter (stopped some years back when I realised they were fanning the flames of an unsustainable bubble, and get this, I'm not an economist or even involved in finance, I just have common sense, unlike a large number amongst the electorate!) and I agree 100%. FF didn't suin this country in the last 3 years. They have been ruining it, WITH THE FULL SUPPORT of the electorate since at least the late 90's (when I realised I would not be voting FF again). Benchmarking, Section 23s, massive increases in SW payments, in PS hiring, despite no appreciable improvement in services....all brought in under FF's watch over the past 10 years+.

FG will not be able to turn all this around in 6 months. They have a hard task ahead of them, but FF and the Greens should see out their term as the elected government, unpopular as they are. We are beholden to the markets these days. Markets HATE instability and so we have to please them. Riots, governments collapsing etc. all conspire to spook the markets and force up our interest rates even more.

We need stability. We need to severely punish the bad governance of the past decade+ but NOT YET, not until the government has run its term.

Police Chief Wiggum

BeardyFunzo wrote: »

I wish I could ask him why if a national government is so great why don't we have one all the time. Just when I thought i couldnt hate that guy any more....

good point

if only the greens could be a little less yellow, and trigger an election, if we have to bite the economic bullet, at least let us vote to accept tough measures

humour us, let us vote

View

Nijmegen wrote: »

Greens are the path of least resistance to a general election.

The evidence to date would appear to contradict this. If anything - whether you agree with them or not - they appear to be fairly disciplined. I'd suspect that the backbench FF TDs are likely to prove a lot more troublesome in the run up to a general election.

Scofflaw

Police Chief Wiggum wrote: »

good point

if only the greens could be a little less yellow, and trigger an election, if we have to bite the economic bullet, at least let us vote to accept tough measures

humour us, let us vote

Surely people knew that the bubble couldn't last forever, so that whatever government we elected would be in with a chance of having to cope with the burst?

mystified,
Scofflaw

Callan57

I thought their commitment to democracy was one of the hallmarks of the Greens ... amazing how a ministerial car dilute your principals

Liam Byrne

Scofflaw wrote: »

Surely people knew that the bubble couldn't last forever, so that whatever government we elected would be in with a chance of having to cope with the burst?

FF were suggesting that it would go on forever.

If "surely people knew" that it wouldn't, then the Greens shouldn't have gone into government with such a deluded and out of touch party, and should have chosen one who could see it coming and would plan accordingly.

Scofflaw

Liam Byrne wrote: »

FF were suggesting that it would go on forever.

If "surely people knew" that it wouldn't, then the Greens shouldn't have gone into government with such a deluded and out of touch party, and should have chosen one who could see it coming and would plan accordingly.

Waiting for the bubble to burst and waiting for an Irish government with a degree of fiscal foresight are two very different things - one could get old indeed waiting for the latter. The Republic certainly has.

cordially,
Scofflaw

wiseguy

It is not the crisis that is destroying this country, please stop with the "da Lehmans did it" defence.
But NAMA {thank you GreenaFail} and commitment to bail out the likes of Anglo Irish Bank at all costs, country be damned.

Scofflaw

wiseguy wrote: »

It is not the crisis that is destroying this country, please stop with the "da Lehmans did it" defence.
But NAMA {thank you GreenaFail} and commitment to bail out the likes of Anglo Irish Bank at all costs, country be damned.

The current government had a choice between supporting the banks and letting them fail, taking a large swathe of the economy with them. It has a choice between raising taxes and cutting services. It has a choice of appeasing the markets or calling in the EMF/IMF. It has those choices at a time of high unemployment and large personal debt amongst the citizens.

The reason the current government has those choices is because in the last decade of FF/PD government the civil service payroll expanded, the tax base was moved to property, the banks were allowed to lend far beyond the capacity of their borrowers to repay, or of the banks to cover, and a huge property bubble was permitted, or even encouraged, while virtually all financial activity, 25% of all economic activity, and almost 14% of the workforce was moved into the construction sector bubble.

Those choices the government faces, unenviable as they are, would be faced by whoever was currently in the government. They may make a better or worse fist of it, but the costs no matter what was chosen would still be huge, and they would be borne by Ireland. There is no choice in that, because we are paying now for the bubble we had then. We're not paying for the bankers' bubble, or the developers' bubble, or the bondholders' bubble - we are paying for everyone's bubble - all the fancy cars, all the house flipping, all the foreign holidays, all the taxi drivers shopping in New York for their Christmas presents, all the SSIAs and fancy clothes and second homes in Bulgaria and Leitrim. We're paying for our failure to stop our government carrying out the absurd PS "benchmarking" exercise, we're paying for our failure to demand adequate regulation, we're paying for our stupidity in cheering on Charlie McCreevy's inflationary budgets, we're paying for our insane property habit.

The current government, even if it had been comprised of the greatest statesmen and women who ever lived, advised by the greatest economists who ever breathed, could not have avoided paying the bill for ten years of living on fantasy.

Hubris breeds nemesis, and living on credit generates a huge debt. We can either wind the country up - maybe ask if the US would like to buy us as a theme park, maybe let the SWP lead us into a bold new socialist future of repudiating the 21st century entirely - or we can pay off those debts. The idea that some other government would somehow be able to magically square that circle belongs firmly to the same reliance on fantasy that got us where we are. It is a failure to face reality that cannot possibly help us to get better, but will only result in us doing exactly the same all over again, because by refusing to face reality we will have learned nothing.

regards,
Scofflaw

johngalway

Richard Bruton made a good point on the radio, Wednesday afternoon I think it was. Basically he said, while very important, the Govt seemed only to be focused on banks and banking issues, while they should also be focused on job creation his thinking was they were seriously falling down in that area. I believe RB has some good ideas in that areas to free up money for small and medium Irish business to go forth and multiply, or at worst, survive. All I hear from the Govt is Banks = Be afraid, be very afraid - and pay this huge bill forever!

Shea O'Meara

The Greens are holding on to power, much like FFail. This call from Gormley is nothing more than trying to pass clinging on to power as a 'we're all in this together!' rallying cry. Somebody please remind him we live in a democracy and if people are so unhappy with the way the current government are doing things that he feels the need to call for cross party unity, remind him an election better suits his cause if it be genuine. Why on earth would anybody who feels the government are making a hash of things think joining with them and just nodding along will make our plight any better?

Regarding the financial crisis and WWJD; the main point is the current government allowed this crash to happen. The only topic open for debate on this is how culpable are they. Are they complete idiots or in it up to their necks skimming profit off developer and banking chums?
WWJD? Well if either of the above are correct, but I expect a little from column A and a little from column B, they need leave office immediatley. Anyone who thinks NAMA/Anglo et al. was 100% the route any other party in power would have taken is mistaken. There is an economically illogical bond between this government and saving Anglo. I believe FFail are beholding to people and some financial institutions due to keeping mistakes and or corruption covered up. It's their track record for jebus sake. Also I hold little or no weight in the news of today's Anglo investigation. Any hardcore FFail chums would have shredded anything of note and all we will get is a couple of patsys getting a wrist slap while FFail have a few new whipping boys to pass all blame to. And most blinkered FFail supporters will buy it.

gandalf

Lovely rising speech there Scofflaw however it doesn't take away from the fact if John Gormley feels that a National Government is the only logical way out of this mess then the people should be allowed to vote in a General Election to decide the make up of this National Government.

In 2007 no one could envisage that they were voting for the make up of a National Government. All the Greens are doing are enabling the Architects of everyones "bubble" as you describe it to grasp onto power long past their due date.