Yom Kippur War

BlaasForRafa

Today is the 37th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War waged on Israel by Egypt and Syria who were heavily supported by the Soviet Union and armed with the latest Soviet equipment. Egyptian forces crossed the Suez canal and advanced some 6 miles into the Sinai backed by 80k troops. Syrian forces advanced into the Golan heights and over the next 4 days several IDF brigades would fight to annihilation hold the Syrians while reserve forces assembled.

The Israelis were warned that arab forces would attack but their political, military and intelligence services didn't take the warnings seriously enough. Cabinet records published today give an indication of the disarray in the Israeli cabinet. This was pretty much known already but its interesting to have it confirmed and see what the individuals involved said.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/newly-released-documents-division-and-disarray-on-eve-of-yom-kippur-war-1.317381

October 6, 1973, Yom Kippur, 8:05 A.M.

Meir convened an emergency meeting in Tel Aviv with senior defense officials. Six hours before the outbreak of the war, Israeli preparations for a general offensive by Arab armies finally began. The warnings of the intelligence source were being taken seriously, as was the fact that the Russians were pulling families out of Egypt and Syria, a sign of approaching war. But U.S. intelligence was not predicting war.

Minister Yisrael Galili said a source had suggested the war could be prevented by leaking information that would reach the Egyptians and Syrians, so they would knew their plans for attack had been discovered.

Jordan also preoccupied those in attendance, because it wasn't clear if the kingdom would join in the assault on Israel.

Initially, Meir deliberated between Elazar's call for a full mobilization of the reserves and Dayan's request for a limited call-up.

"If you approve a major mobilization of the reserves, I won't resign," Dayan said. But with an eye to international reaction, he added, "A full mobilization before even one shot is fired - they will say right away that we are the aggressors."

At 9:20 A.M., a full mobilization was approved.

October 7, 1973

A discussion at the Prime Minister's Office centered on how to enlist American support at the United Nations and head off a cease-fire that would hurt Israel. Meir suggested putting together a list of requests.

The forum considered presenting U.S. secretary of state Henry Kissinger with a partial, distorted picture exaggerating Israel's poor situation to win the Nixon administration's support. Meir rejected the suggestion out of hand.

"We should telegraph him the details; he should get the real picture," she said. "We can't play hide and seek with him."

Minister Yisrael Galili asked in response, "Do we sell him the fact that we've moved out of the populated areas?" Meir replied, "I don't object to us saying, there's also risk to populated areas ... I want to give him the real picture. I'm not under the impression the

situation is doomed ... We should tell it to him convincingly. Tonight was a bad night."

11:50 P.M.

A meeting of the ministers with senior defense officials. Yitzhak Rabin returned from a tour of the southern front and told the meeting, "The whole issue of the dead and wounded is complicated. There are 400 wounded and 80 killed. [GOC Southern Command Shmuel] Gorodish estimates there will be 150 to 200 killed before the counteroffensive." Rabin said he had no information on Egyptian losses.

October 8, 7:50 P.M.

Maj. Gen. Haim Bar-Lev and minister Yigal Allon report to the prime minister after a tour of both fronts. The Israeli forces' situation is beginning to improve, while the enemy forces are beginning to suffer serious damage.

"What they achieved today as compared to yesterday is enormous," Allon said. "The front was breached yesterday. If the Syrians had been more daring, they'd have made significant gains."

Bar-Lev explained the Egyptian and Syrian successes as being partly due to technological superiority. "Both have the new Soviet tank plus infrared," he said. "They have an advantage there. On the first night we were surprised; we only knew they had it in theory ... Today we know about it and take it into account."

Manic Moran

Interesting info.

The 73 was is one of my favourites to study, I've made the Suez front required reading for my lieutenants.

NTM

Mahatma coat

Interesting,

When Israel Gets attacked first its
'A Sneaky Surprise Attack'

but when they Attack First its

' A Well executed PreEmptive Strike'

if it werent for Double Standards they'd have none at all.

old_aussie

Colonel Giora "Hawkeye" Epstein, one of Israels top fighter Aces.

Between October 18 and 20, 1973, he downed a Mi-8 helicopter and eight jets: two Sukhoi-7s, two Sukhoi-20s and four MiG 21s. Then, on October 24, 1973, Epstein downed three more MiG-21s west of the Great Bitter Lake

In one battle Epstein and his wingman were led into a trap when they chased 2 MiGs and were attacked by 12 MiGs that were so low as to not be seen by radar.

Epstein sent his wingman back to home base as he was low on fuel, Epstein took on the 12 MiGs and shot down 4 of them.

Nine of his victories came in an IAI Nesher, an Israeli-built version of the French Mirage V.

The Ofira Air Battle was one of the first air battles of the Yom Kippur War .

It took place on 6 October 1973, near Israeli Air Force Base Ofir at Sharm el-Sheikh, on the southern tip of theSinai Peninsula.

It involved two Israeli Phantoms and, according to the IAF pilots, 20 Egyptian Air ForceMiG17s and their eight MiG-21 escorts, on their way to attack Israeli positions in the area. By the end of the brief six-minute battle seven MiGs were confirmed to have been shot down. The remaining MiGs disengaged and the Israeli Jets returned to their base.

BlaasForRafa

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Interesting,

When Israel Gets attacked first its
'A Sneaky Surprise Attack'

but when they Attack First its

' A Well executed PreEmptive Strike'

if it werent for Double Standards they'd have none at all.

Give over with the usual anti-Israeli guff.

If you read the article the attack was hardly a surprise. If it wasn't for the court of public opinion then the Israelis could have gone ahead with a pre-emptive strike.

I'd guess that you'd be ok someone to attacking Israel but if Israel attacks then your up in arms like a good ol keyboard warrior.

NOGMaxpower

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Give over with the usual anti-Israeli guff.

If you read the article the attack was hardly a surprise. If it wasn't for the court of public opinion then the Israelis could have gone ahead with a pre-emptive strike.

I'd guess that you'd be ok someone to attacking Israel but if Israel attacks then your up in arms like a good ol keyboard warrior.

Your defense of Israel is just as bad. Its a well known fact Israel acts on double standards infact its one of their main policies they took from the Yanks - Say one thing and do another.

Israel knew well in advance of the pending military strike and were ready.

BlaasForRafa

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

Your defense of Israel is just as bad. Its a well known fact Israel acts on double standards infact its one of their main policies they took from the Yanks - Say one thing and do another.

Israel knew well in advance of the pending military strike and were ready.

I don't need to defend Israel, it is able to defend itself quite well, as indicated by its existence. If you had any clue of what actually happened during the Yom Kippur war then you'd know that although the high command had warning, both borders were relatively lightly defended because until the last minute the warnings weren't taken seriously.

If Israel was so ready why would they have only 2 understrength armoured brigades in the Golan to face 1500+ Syrian tanks? If they were so ready why would they only have less than 300 tanks and hardly any infantry in the Sinai? Think about what your posting before you actually post next time.

old_aussie

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If Israel was so ready why would they have only 2 understrength armoured brigades in the Golan to face 1500+ Syrian tanks? If they were so ready why would they only have less than 300 tanks and hardly any infantry in the Sinai? Think about what your posting before you actually post next time.

That's exactly right, if the Israeli's were ready why did they only have about 100 reserve tanks in the Golan area to defend against Syria.

Israel then sent another 200 "near battle ready" tanks and defended against 1500 "fully battle ready" Syrian tanks.

The dumbass Egyptian Air Force(nearly all planes) always went out on morning patrols and then returned to base "for morning tea" and to get their jets refulled. You'd think Egypt would only send a small section at a time on morning patrol, but no.

The Israeli Air Force wiped most of the Egyptian Air Force out as they sat on the ground.

Stovepipe

Old Aussie,
I suggest you refer to Osprey's Combat Aircraft #44 for a very good account of Arab MiG operations in the various wars.
regards
Stovepipe

BlaasForRafa

Stovepipe wrote: »

Old Aussie,
I suggest you refer to Osprey's Combat Aircraft #44 for a very good account of Arab MiG operations in the various wars.
regards
Stovepipe

And Aircraft of the Aces 59 and 60 which deal with Mirage, Nesher and Phantom aces of the IAF are good reads too.

old_aussie

Stovepipe wrote: »

Old Aussie,
I suggest you refer to Osprey's Combat Aircraft #44 for a very good account of Arab MiG operations in the various wars.
regards
Stovepipe

Can you provide an ebook link or buy the book and send it to me please.

Thanks

mcdoogle

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Interesting,

When Israel Gets attacked first its
'A Sneaky Surprise Attack'

but when they Attack First its

' A Well executed PreEmptive Strike'

if it werent for Double Standards they'd have none at all.

Reminds me of this clip - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEHcP7fSu80

From 09 min34 sec - 09 min 42 sec

Edit - not sure how to embed properly

BlaasForRafa

mcdoogle wrote: »

Reminds me of this clip -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEHcP7fSu80&feature=related

From 09 min34 sec - 09 min 42 sec

Edit - not sure how to embed properly

click the youtube symbol and just put in the bit after the = sign between the

things


Its hard to tell which video you might be referring to but the Golda Meir speech at the end of this video is very moving and sums up the spirit of the Israeli defence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzw2ff7b6zU

mcdoogle

Its hard to tell which video you might be referring to but the Golda Meir speech at the end of this video is very moving and sums up the spirit of the Israeli defence.

Slightly less highbrow that that......

depaly

It was mainly Egypt and Syria, but in fact the
soldiers and weaponry of six nations attacked
Israel in 1973!!!!

Regiments from Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Morocco
were included in the attacking forces.

And Saddam Hussein sent a mechanised army to attack
Israel. The Israeli air force caught them on the road
and destroyed them.

It was a close run thing, but the Israelis bravely
won out.

Their tiny state is to be very much admired in so
many ways. Not least, in the way it has defended
itself again and again- and has every right to do so.

PatsytheNazi

old_aussie wrote: »

Colonel Giora "Hawkeye" Epstein, one of Israels top fighter Aces.

Between October 18 and 20, 1973, he downed a Mi-8 helicopter and eight jets: two Sukhoi-7s, two Sukhoi-20s and four MiG 21s. Then, on October 24, 1973, Epstein downed three more MiG-21s west of the Great Bitter Lake

In one battle Epstein and his wingman were led into a trap when they chased 2 MiGs and were attacked by 12 MiGs that were so low as to not be seen by radar.

Epstein sent his wingman back to home base as he was low on fuel, Epstein took on the 12 MiGs and shot down 4 of them.

Nine of his victories came in an IAI Nesher, an Israeli-built version of the French Mirage V.

The Ofira Air Battle was one of the first air battles of the Yom Kippur War.

It took place on 6 October 1973, near Israeli Air Force Base Ofir at Sharm el-Sheikh, on the southern tip of theSinai Peninsula.

It involved two Israeli Phantoms and, according to the IAF pilots, 20 Egyptian Air ForceMiG17s and their eight MiG-21 escorts, on their way to attack Israeli positions in the area. By the end of the brief six-minute battle seven MiGs were confirmed to have been shot down. The remaining MiGs disengaged and the Israeli Jets returned to their base.

" Epstein took on the 12 MiGs and shot down 4 of them......It involved two20 Egyptian Air ForceMiG17s and their eight MiG-21 escorts, on their way to attack Israeli positions in the area. By the end of the brief six-minute battle seven MiGs were confirmed to have been shot down Israeli Phantoms and, according to the IAF pilots, . "

No offence to mate, but sounds like porkies/black propaganda to me. A bit like they say, paper doesn't refuse ink.

Manic Moran

Not impossible. A single Phantom will carry eight missiles, ten if configured Air-Air. For the 2 vs 20, that could be ten long-range missiles hitting the MiGs before they even get to within visual of each other.

For the close-range deal, a good pilot will use the F-4's power to stay out of the MiG's envelope, and the Israelis were under less severe restrictions than the US was in Vietnam when it still had an excellent kill ratio. Especially when outnumbered to the extent that you're the only one on your side, that way you don't need to worry about identifying who that black speck is you're about to shoot at.

NTM

depaly

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

" Epstein took on the 12 MiGs and shot down 4 of them......It involved two20 Egyptian Air ForceMiG17s and their eight MiG-21 escorts, on their way to attack Israeli positions in the area. By the end of the brief six-minute battle seven MiGs were confirmed to have been shot down Israeli Phantoms and, according to the IAF pilots, . "

No offence to mate, but sounds like porkies/black propaganda to me. A bit like they say, paper doesn't refuse ink.

A Nazi should recognize lies and black propaganda!!!!
Of course, black propaganda can entail the denial
of truth, as well as the spreading of lies!!!!!!!

PatsytheNazi

Manic Moran wrote: »

Not impossible. A single Phantom will carry eight missiles, ten if configured Air-Air. For the 2 vs 20, that could be ten long-range missiles hitting the MiGs before they even get to within visual of each other.

For the close-range deal, a good pilot will use the F-4's power to stay out of the MiG's envelope, and the Israelis were under less severe restrictions than the US was in Vietnam when it still had an excellent kill ratio. Especially when outnumbered to the extent that you're the only one on your side, that way you don't need to worry about identifying who that black speck is you're about to shoot at.

NTM

Still skeptical. A bit like these stories you hear of one guy taking on 5/6 scummers in a street fight and sending them running. Possible in theory sure, but been done in reality.....porkie.

Manic Moran

Could have sworn I had seen such a fight on Youtube.

There is some precedent, though. In 1967 Richard Scheffert took on four MiG-17s and two MiG-21s in his F-8, an aircraft which was neither as powerful nor as well-armed as a Phantom. He had it out for over ten minutes before help showed up to finish the fight, a heck of a feat of military airmanship.

I change my figures though. The 2 vs 20 would have had up to 12 long-range missiles heading for the MiGs before they met, with another 8 short-ranged ones on the shoulder pylons.

NTM

PatsytheNazi

Manic Moran wrote: »

Not impossible. A single Phantom will carry eight missiles, ten if configured Air-Air. For the 2 vs 20, that could be ten long-range missiles hitting the MiGs before they even get to within visual of each other.

For the close-range deal, a good pilot will use the F-4's power to stay out of the MiG's envelope, and the Israelis were under less severe restrictions than the US was in Vietnam when it still had an excellent kill ratio. Especially when outnumbered to the extent that you're the only one on your side, that way you don't need to worry about identifying who that black speck is you're about to shoot at.

NTM

F-4 Phantom. So it was a case of an American military technology victory rather than an Israeli one........as usual :rolleyes: I don't know why the Israeli's pretend that their not an American state.

depaly

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

F-4 Phantom. So it was a case of an American military technology victory rather than an Israeli one........as usual :rolleyes: I don't know why the Israeli's pretend that their not an American state.

A clumsy smear by a Nazi!!!!
That wonderful military technology didn't
fly itself!!!!!!!!!
It required a courageous Israeli pilot....
I wonder how much American or European
military hardware is scattered among
countless countries around the world???
The American connection, especially since
1967 and 1973, is well known.
It obviously disappoints you!!!!!!!!
There are dozens of American companies
based in Ireland. Does that make it an
American state???

Mahatma coat

ah yes, those 'courageous' Israeli Pilots, are they the same ones that Fire their missiles at Schools & Hospitals??

BlaasForRafa

Mahatma coat wrote: »

ah yes, those 'courageous' Israeli Pilots, are they the same ones that Fire their missiles at Schools & Hospitals??

You ****ing idiot, you do realise that the Yom Kippur war was in 1973 and the battle cited was over an Israeli airfield and no schools and hospitals were involved?

Your stupid random anti-israeli driveby snark is not a worthwhile addition to this thread.

BlaasForRafa

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

F-4 Phantom. So it was a case of an American military technology victory rather than an Israeli one........as usual :rolleyes: I don't know why the Israeli's pretend that their not an American state.

So what if the Israeli's were flying american made planes. The IAF used mostly french aircraft until the early 70's (Mirages, Super Mysteres, Ouragans etc) and reverse-engineered french equipment (Neshers, Kfirs). The IAF took the best planes that it could from wherever it could get them.

If you any interest in actual knowledge about the IAF rather than pathetic slurs against them maybe you might know that the IAFs first fighter was ex-Nazi equipment, ME-109 airframes with Junkers Jumo engines put together in postwar Czechoslovakia.

BlaasForRafa

Manic Moran wrote: »

Could have sworn I had seen such a fight on Youtube.

There is some precedent, though. In 1967 Richard Scheffert took on four MiG-17s and two MiG-21s in his F-8, an aircraft which was neither as powerful nor as well-armed as a Phantom. He had it out for over ten minutes before help showed up to finish the fight, a heck of a feat of military airmanship.

I change my figures though. The 2 vs 20 would have had up to 12 long-range missiles heading for the MiGs before they met, with another 8 short-ranged ones on the shoulder pylons.

NTM

Most of the kills were against the bomb and rocket-carrying Mig-17s that were attacking the airfield. At least one of the victories was a gun kill at which the IAF (unlike a lot of other airforces) still trained extensively on.

Multiple kills in a mission have happened in many other circumstances, iirc Erich Rudorrfer is the highest all-time scorer for kills in one mission with 13 soviet planes in ww2

Manic Moran

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

F-4 Phantom. So it was a case of an American military technology victory rather than an Israeli one........as usual :rolleyes: I don't know why the Israeli's pretend that their not an American state.

OK, you get a week off for dragging a thread off-topic yet again.

But for the record, the Israelis are now capable of building pretty much everything they need, from small arms through tanks and artillery. Even airplanes, though for cost reasons they've chosen to buy of late. Helicopters are the notable exception. They also sell military equipment to the US, from small arms ammunition and missiles through electronics and UAVs.

BlaasforRafa wrote:

You ****ing idiot

And you get two weeks' holiday for that one.

Mahatma coat wrote:

ah yes, those 'courageous' Israeli Pilots, are they the same ones that Fire their missiles at Schools & Hospitals??

I don't recall the last time I gave an action against you, so just an infraction for being provocative on this occasion.

NTM

depaly

Mahatma coat wrote: »

ah yes, those 'courageous' Israeli Pilots, are they the same ones that Fire their missiles at Schools & Hospitals??

If you take the trouble to read the title
of the thread, you'll see that it's about
the Yom Kippur War.
A war that included arial battles, and the
participation of courageous pilots.
It must be crystal clear to everyone that
you could'nt resist the temptation to
articulate your current hang ups and
bitterness - yet it's hardly relevant
to this discussion.....

Manic Moran

OK, lads. Survival tip.

If a contentious post has already been acted upon by a moderator, drop it.

NTM

Snickers Man

One of the long-term results of the Yom Kippur War was the 1979 Camp David Peace deal between Egypt and Israel which saw Egypt give up its 30 year state of war with Israel in return for an Israeli evacuation from Sinai.

It's something the Middle East could learn from even today.

The hard nosed Israeli supporters will say this was because of yet another military defeat inflicted on Egypt by Israel but a more considered analysis is that it was the early Egyptian successes that gave Sadat the credibility and confidence he needed to make a "peace with honour".

The Egyptian crossing of the Suez Canal was a masterpiece of military tactics and innovation. So too were the early tank battle victories in the Sinai. After the almost instantaneous defeat of three Arab armies in 1967, this was an important boost to Arab prestige and pride.

The Israelis were supposed to pursue a separate peace deal with the Palestinians as a result of Camp David but of course they've managed to avoid their responsibilities in that regard ever since.

The sad fact for Israel is that they are so good at fighting wars that they don't dare make peace.

They are now resigned to a permanent state of civil war with the erstwhile inhabitants of their land and wonder why their actions attract so much hostility from public opinion around the world.

Even on this thread there is a knee-jerk responder (temporarily banned, I believe. Hey. Happens to the best of us:) ) who accuses people of being "anti Israeli" as if that were some sort of crime in itself.

Reality check: Nobody likes you if you're very good at fighting.

When Germany had the most efficient, most modern and most successful army in Europe in the 1940s, everybody hated them.

When the Brits ruled half the world in the 19th century they had to stay in "Splendid Isolation" because nobody could stand the sight of them.

Today the Americans find it hard to make friends thanks to their military adventures in Asia and as for the Israelis.......

they think that by rocketing tower blocks in Gaza they can garner public support;

they think that by suddenly uprooting its few kibbutzes in the Gaza strip and retreating behind a security wall and threatening to shoot anything that approaches it, they will build a peaceful and secure neighbourly state.

They think that by bulldozing the homes of relatives of Palestinians who die while fighting Israelis they will suppress Palestinian identity.

The fools, the fools, the fools as a wise man once said in another time and place.

What Palestinian despair needs is a victory. Not an overwhelming, unconditional or Cartheginian one. Just enough to give them the confidence and pride they need to have the guts to make peace with Israel. And for Israel to realise that maybe there is a confident Palestinian state willing to live alongside them.

Perhaps the most pro-Israeli thing the west, especially the US, could do, is hold the Israelis down while the PAlestinians give them one good hard kick in the teeth.

That's all it would take.

It could work. What's the alternative? Another 50 years of rocketing tower blocks and wondering why they're so unpopular?

Could be worth a try.

depaly

Hi Snickers Man.

'Perhaps the most pro-Israeli thing the west, especially the US, could do,
is hold the Israelis down while the PAlestinians give them one good hard
kick in the teeth.'

What a strangely violent metaphor for someone who is
supposedly advocating a peace deal!!!!!!

It is perhaps apt that you singled out the Camp David
Peace Agreement.
Egypt, for the most part, has since kept to it's
side of the treaty.....
Palestinians have broken every deal
or agreement they ever made!!!!!!

Israel got it's usual answer when,
as you put it, 'it uprooted
its few kibbutzes in the Gaza strip'!!!!!!!

Despite your obvious admiration for Egypt's 'early
tank battle victories', I believe it's stretching it
just a little to talk about an 'important boost to
Arab prestige and pride'......
Especially as six Arab nations were about to suffer
defeat at the hands of Israel!!!!!!

Israel has had to be 'very good at fighting'.....
It's survival was, and is, at stake.

The Jews have a very small country, tiny in
comparison to the surrounding Arab states.
A country with many talents.
And they demand only to live peacefully.
They have the right and the ability to
defend themselves - and they always will.

If it comes to a new treaty, Israel will
make painful concessions - and stick to
them.
Unfortunately, the likes of Hamas and
Hizbollah will do their best to bring
everyone back to hatred and violence.
And those who hate Israel will dredge
up the usual excuses.......

However, sooner or later, they will all
face reality.... The state of Israel
is here to stay!!!!!!!!!

And good luck to them!!!!!!