Chi Running?

Mike D

Has anyone out there looked into Chi Running and if so, what did you think? Are there any benefits to it? Thanks

pudgeydev

Hey Mike,
I found it great, changed completely the way I run. I've not had any injuries since I did the course a few months ago, whereas I was plagued with them before. Could be a coincidence but I don't think so!
Loads of threads here on Chi Running if you go looking, don't think I've seen any negative comments.

RoyMcC

Several previous threads on this Mike, though I think 'chi' is too short a word to be searchable.

It's a way of running properly but with a fancy name, I think.

ronanmac

Pretty much what the previous two posters have said. It's basically a running technique course. Since doing the Catherina McKiernan course, I've been staying pretty much injury-free, and landing midfoot, as opposed to on my heel. Personaly, I couldn't recommend it enough.

village runner

Done it in jan 2008 carrying an injury. Was always fcuking injured. Sure thats why people do it isnt it. Even with high mileage(80 odd at peak) I havent been stopped running because of injury since. So ~i would def recommend it.

shg101

What about improved running economy?

They make claims that running economy is improved, but are there any studies to prove it?

I saw a study on the Pose method (co-authored by Romanov himself IIRC) which I think showed an increase in O2 consumption after 16 weeks of Pose training - ie an apparent decrease in running efficiency. The whole concept of leaning forward to use gravity to run more efficiently seems like quackery.


I'm sure this has been discussed to death on here - any links to those old threads?

grifter09

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7zEruVUwr4

I dont think its quackery.
I changed my style myself recently and have noticed an improvement.

MaroonTam

I received a Chi Running book for my birthday last week.
Not going to start reading it until after DCM, don't want to be confusing myself at this late stage, but I am certainly looking forward to finding out more on the topic.

Mike D

Hey,
Thanks for the replies, Very positive. I'd be interested in doing the course I reckon, I don't tend to suffer from injuries too badly but would be keen on improving my running style and increasing distance with improved economy.

I wonder if I could get all that from the book, I suppose coaching would be better but more expensive (he says, stating the Bl*****ng obvious:rolleyes:)

CHeers

dna_leri

Mike D wrote: »

Hey,
.

I wonder if I could get all that from the book, I suppose coaching would be better but more expensive (he says, stating the Bl*****ng obvious:rolleyes:)

CHeers

I read the book while out injured recently and tried to implement the technique as I came back, particularly hoping to reduce the stress on my knee, although it was not my running form that caused the injury.

Overall I have to say I am not a believer, particularly in the Chi part of it, so I skipped over the first 4 chapters.
I did find it useful as a guide for my form and it helped me concentrate on certain elements such as foot strike and making ground contact under your centre of mass. I remain unconvinced about the importance of "lean" and letting gravity pull you forward - I have a problem with the physics behind this theory, particularly when running uphill.

I think if you are serious about ChiRunning you would need to do the course, I don't think you can learn it all from the book. I understand the courses run by Catriona McKiernan are good and focus more on improving running form than worrying about how Chi is flowing through your body.

However I recommend you start by getting the book and if you are convinced then look at the course options, I think there are also videos available online from Danny Dreyer - it's a regular industry and I think that's part of the problem I have with it. You might be better off getting a good coach to help you work on your form but that's easier said than done. Buy the book, make up your own mind, but I think you have to be highly motivated to completely change your running style.

Orion

RoyMcC wrote: »

Several previous threads on this Mike, though I think 'chi' is too short a word to be searchable.

It is using the vBulletin search.
But google is your friend: search for "chi running site:boards.ie"

Mike D

Thanks DNA
I can see where you are coming from with the whole "chi" thing but I am willing to open my mind to it.

I too would have doubts when there is such an industry behind it..but hey, people seem to swear by it so there must be something in it...right?

Thanks for your insight:)

mithril

I am doing Cathriona's course at the end of the month.
I am not expecting it to change the world, just some tips on how I can alter my running form to reduce the chance of injury.

Mike D

Thanks
My wife has beaten me to it and signed up for the course at the end of this month! So I'll see how she gets on and probably book the next one for myself. Thanks for all the advise:)

Jacky08

Mike D wrote: »

Thanks
My wife has beaten me to it and signed up for the course at the end of this month! So I'll see how she gets on and probably book the next one for myself. Thanks for all the advise:)

Do you know how much it costs?

mo_bhicycle

Jacky08 wrote: »

Do you know how much it costs?

€110

Mike D

I thought it was €150.00?? You pay on the day rather than in advance so maybe I'm wrong.

mo_bhicycle

Mike D wrote: »

I thought it was €150.00?? You pay on the day rather than in advance so maybe I'm wrong.

I def paid €110 about 3 weeks ago for a full day.
Maybe price varies with group size, there was about 20 in our group. Group was a bit on the large size to be honest, but still a great course, well worth it.

mithril

€150 for me as well including lunch.

mo_bhicycle

mithril wrote: »

€150 for me as well including lunch.

No lunch for us

Mike D

mo_bhicycle wrote: »

No lunch for us

Was your course in Dublin Mo?

mo_bhicycle

Mike D wrote: »

Was your course in Dublin Mo?

Nope, Galway

sunshinegirly

Hi everyone

I'm just reading all the comments on chi running and I'm trying to get fit again after have babies and then back problems for the past year. I saw this workshop with Catherina McKiernan in Portugal- anyone know anything about Events Abroad or about the workshop - http://www.eventsabroad.com/fitness-health/catherina-mc-kiernan-chi-running-ireland/ ?


Thanks

RayCun

My OH did the workshop in Ireland, thought it was very good.

sunshinegirly

that's great. I think I might give it a go.

Murta

There are four Chirunning Instructors in Ireland - http://www.chirunning.com/learn-it/find-an-instructor/.

I learned from Mary Jennings (http://www.forgetthegym.ie) and haven't looked back since. I made massive improvements between my first and second years of running. Most of which I attribute to a combination of chiRunning, Prescription Orthotics and Pilates.

spurscormac

I did it a couple of years ago, it certainly improved my form, going from heel to forefoot strike. I also notice in training that when I concentrate on the changes taught in the class, that I feel like I have increased energy & start to go faster.

Tough to continue in full, without constant focus on it, but I certainly haven't experienced the sort of injuries & niggles I used to get since doing it.

huskerdu

spurscormac wrote: »

I did it a couple of years ago, it certainly improved my form, going from heel to forefoot strike. I also notice in training that when I concentrate on the changes taught in the class, that I feel like I have increased energy & start to go faster.

Tough to continue in full, without constant focus on it, but I certainly haven't experienced the sort of injuries & niggles I used to get since doing it.

My thoughts exactly.

It helped me get over my heel striking habit.

The technique should take pressure off your knees, ankles and calves when running, but you have to practice the technique and keep it up.

Raighne

shg101 wrote: »

What about improved running economy?

They make claims that running economy is improved, but are there any studies to prove it?

I saw a study on the Pose method (co-authored by Romanov himself IIRC) which I think showed an increase in O2 consumption after 16 weeks of Pose training - ie an apparent decrease in running efficiency. The whole concept of leaning forward to use gravity to run more efficiently seems like quackery.


I'm sure this has been discussed to death on here - any links to those old threads?

It is a hotly contested debate with many authoritative proponents on both sides of the divide. There is a study worth reading by Dallam, Wilber, Jadelis, Fletcher and Nicolas Romanov (2005) showing that running economy was actually reduced after 12 weeks practicing Pose running. A German study by Shucker, Hagemann, Strauss and Volker (2009) found similarly that the more attentional focus was giving to running stride while running the higher the runners oxygen consumption.

I do not know if anyone in the running community has made the connection of why this is so, but this effect is widely understood in sports who traditionally focus more on muscular coordination (tennis, soccer etc.). When you learn a skill initially, it is encoded in explicit memory and accessed by activation of the prefrontal cortex. As you master the skill control moves to implicit memory and is controlled by parts of the brain such as the Ganglia. Matthew Syed writes about this at length in "Bounce" on why "choking" and "bricking" can occur to otherwise superb performers.

So it stands to reason that if you do change your stride you will lose speed and economy until you can make the transition of the new movement pattern from explicit to implicit memory. Whether any studies have yet to corroborate this I do not know.

Personally, I believe the way around this potential pitfall is to rather look at the hierarchy of movement taught by people such as Antony Riddle (owner of Pilates Running and Gloves Boxing Club). Essentially, you aim to correct posture, muscular imbalances and residual muscular tension. The way you stand, walk and run are patterns adopted by the brain based on what it has "to work with". Change the functional system and the function changes. In layman's terms, get the correct assessment of these issues, correct them but when you run you should try not to focus on your running at all. If you correct "the platform", the ideal running stride will manifest itself naturally as your body returns to a natural level of balance, strength and function.

Mr Slow

This video helped me successfully move from heel striking to a mid foot plant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H26liWMDH8U

TFBubendorfer

Mr Slow wrote: »

This video helped me successfully move from heel striking to a mid foot plant.

Patrick Makau ran 2:03:38 for the Berlin marathon while heel striking. Just sayin.

Mr Slow

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Patrick Makau ran 2:03:38 for the Berlin marathon while heel striking. Just sayin.

Imagine what he could do with Chi!

huskerdu

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Patrick Makau ran 2:03:38 for the Berlin marathon while heel striking. Just sayin.

Everyone knows that lots of successful athletes heel strike and it doesn't bother them.

Knowing that, doesn't help my dodgy knee.

Raighne

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Patrick Makau ran 2:03:38 for the Berlin marathon while heel striking. Just sayin.

It adds an interesting variable to the discussion. I know that the debate about this on Sports Scientists.com suggested that the heel strike used by Patrick (and Haile apparently) transitions so quickly to mid-foot that it's not a "traditional" heel-strike, but let that rest what I think is much more interesting is that it is well-known that most East Africans, because they grow up running enormous aerobic mileage (mostly barefoot), up to 10-15000 miles some estimate, before the age of 18, they have fully retained (and even enhanced) the elastic recoil properties of their lower legs.

Antony Riddle showed me the example in London, explaining that the human leg really has more elastic power than the legs of a kangaroo but in most the muscle pattern and elasticity needed to use it has deteriorated. His example is that if you drop a soft object against a hard object then the soft object will "bounce" of the hard. Human tissue is designed to be the "soft" part of the equation and if trained correctly from childhood and not constricted by excessive cushioning, it will "bounce" back off the "hard surface" (the ground).

On the other hand, if you are untrained in running this way or using heavy cushioning, then your leg turns into the "hard" part and the ground (through the medium of the shoe) into the "soft". To exaggerate this difference imagine dumping a rubber ball on a ceramic floor versus dumping a metal bar. The unconditioned human leg essentially turns into the metal bar: no spring, no recoil, hard versus hard or "if you can't jump (properly), you can't run (properly)".

There's a lot to suggest that if you can restore your elastic recoil and the muscular reflexes that allows the body to "bounce" on contact with the ground, it does not really matter what you run in as long as it's comfortable. But this would certainly reduce injury risk and increase performance. Someone like Makau is likely to have amazing elastic recoil in his leg, a very low ground contact time so when running in racing shoes, it seems very possible that his heel/mid-foot strike could be as effective as anything else. Of course, the "Perfection Point" reckons the real limit to the marathon lies around 1:58, so perhaps it was really a terrible performance by his standards ;-)

daveryan231

as a continue to the events abroad above I have found there facebook page an noticed a lot of competitions to win vouchers and information coming for their ch running course heres the link

http://www.facebook.com/EventsAbroad?ref=ts

Penny77

I tried out Chi Running yesterday after reading up and watching video tutorials. I have not attended any workshops yet.
I found it difficult and very hard on the calves after about 10- 15 minutes.
Any advice... I dont have a trainer and Catriona McKeirnan's workshops seem full for the foreseeable future.

Mr Slow

Penny77 wrote: »

I tried out Chi Running yesterday after reading up and watching video tutorials. I have not attended any workshops yet.
I found it difficult and very hard on the calves after about 10- 15 minutes.
Any advice... I dont have a trainer and Catriona McKeirnan's workshops seem full for the foreseeable future.

It's not going to happen overnight, if your calves are suffering after 10-15 mins you're doing too much too soon. Try bringing in one small element at a time and move on to the next only when you're doing that element naturally.

MrCreosote

Is it pronounced Chee running or Kai running?

Mr Slow

MrCreosote wrote: »

Is it pronounced Chee running or Kai running?

I've only ever heard it pronounced chee.

Penny77

I am toying with either it or buying a pair of five finger vibrum running shoes..
Either way to run more, injury free I need to lower impact on back discs!

spurscormac

Penny77 wrote: »

I am toying with either it or buying a pair of five finger vibrum running shoes..
Either way to run more, injury free I need to lower impact on back discs!

Personally - I wouldn't go with the 5-fingers unless you're prepared to start from a very low base mileage in them and work slowly on upping the miles.
Too many people jump in at the deep end, think they're the answer to all their ails & end up overdoing it & getting injured.

To go from a standard running shoe to zero differential is a difference of about 12-14mm, in plain terms, that's a stretch of your achilles & calves by that much.

If you're already having problems with your calves, probably not the best plan.

I would advise migrating through shoes with a slightly less differential over time. This allows you to keep to current mileage (after a week or two less) while making the transition to more minimal shoes - if that's what you're after.

This is what I've done without any problems, and in 9 months have moved to 3mm heel-toe drop with no issues.

az2wp0sye65487

spurscormac wrote: »

Personally - I wouldn't go with the 5-fingers unless you're prepared to start from a very low base mileage in them and work slowly on upping the miles.
Too many people jump in at the deep end, think they're the answer to all their ails & end up overdoing it & getting injured.

To go from a standard running shoe to zero differential is a difference of about 12-14mm, in plain terms, that's a stretch of your achilles & calves by that much.

If you're already having problems with your calves, probably not the best plan.

I would advise migrating through shoes with a slightly less differential over time. This allows you to keep to current mileage (after a week or two less) while making the transition to more minimal shoes - if that's what you're after.

This is what I've done without any problems, and in 9 months have moved to 3mm heel-toe drop with no issues.

It can't be a stretch of your achilles and calves by that much though... because in 'traditional' running shoes although your heel is higher up off the ground due to the cushioned heel, you are encouraged by that same cushioning to heel strike - essentially extending your calves and achilles to do that.

When barefoot you land mid to forefoot and your heels stay up off the ground. So the stretch shouldn't be much different...

Either way - I do agree about starting from a very low base mileage and gradually building up mileage in Vibrams. It is a long slow process. I'm one of the ones who overdid it and got injured.

However the injury was to a bone in the base of my foot. Calves and achilles were always fine. In fact, calves became HUGE during the time I ran in the Vibrams.

I plan on going back to them at some stage but I've learned my lesson and will be taking it easy and gradually easing into longer distances etc.

huskerdu

Mr Slow wrote: »

I've only ever heard it pronounced chee.

According to Catriona McKiernan, it is Chee, the same way you pronounce
Tai-Chi.

huskerdu

Mr Slow wrote: »

It's not going to happen overnight, if your calves are suffering after 10-15 mins you're doing too much too soon. Try bringing in one small element at a time and move on to the next only when you're doing that element naturally.

Very true. Its hard to change your running gait overnight.

if you want to practice Chi running, You should practice the Chi running drills every day and then use them in running.

I found it was only possible after the workshop, where I was shown the drills and techniques in person.

Even at that, getting to the point that it came naturally when running took months.

I have found it useful, but not a panacea for my dodgy knee.