Clonmel Cemetery Records: Search and Find Graves

hellbent

I'm making people aware that there's now an online facility to search for graves/headstones in St Patrick's Cemetery, Clonmel. You can search by surname or by year of death, or you can browse through the records by cemetery section.
At present, about 3/8 of the graves are listed, those in the left side of the cemetery from the chapel onwards. I hope to complete the work around April next, with approx 9000 individual records and maybe 3000 photos in total.
I can only include those graves with readable headstones - approx 1 in 20 are unreadable.

The website address is www.Crowleytree.info, and you can find the various search forms on the left-side menu under "Clonmel Cemetery". In addition, there is a layout plan of the plots to enable the plot number to be easily found.

All this is tedious work, so I'd appreciate feedback to see if its a worthwhile undertaking, especially for those living in the UK or USA. Or should I forget about it?

SparrowTown

Do you have the permission of the council to take the photos? What if someone did not want their loved one graves on the net?

hellbent

Yes, I spoke to the Cemetery staff, and there is no objection from them. Regarding the net itself, the headstones are obviously there (in the Cemetery) to mark the grave & for people to see, and find by walking around. I can't see that there's a problem with having them on the net - they're not visible in any case unless someone performs a search -i.e is looking for a grave.

Many genealogical sites have images of headstones and the inscriptions freely visible on the net. They've been there for years.

But, I would of course remove any image, if so requested by the family involved.

PS
Do you think its a good idea to allow those abroad to search for their family graves?

SparrowTown

hellbent wrote: »

Yes, I spoke to the Cemetery staff, and there is no objection from them.

in the town hall or in the cemetry?

But, I would of course remove any image, if so requested by the family involved.

that is good

PS
Do you think its a good idea to allow those abroad to search for their family graves?

yes so long as , as you say anyone can have the image deleted if they want

me myself

i think what you are doing is very wrong people have laid there loved ones to rest here and its very very both private and emotional for anyone who has lost a loved one to see images of their burial place on the net for all the world to see,who gives you the right to think you can publish private pictures,if loved ones abroad want to see pictures of their lost ones surely they can visit or get family or friends to email to them if theres is none left locally then surely these are the one you say cannot be read.

pooch90

Having lost loved ones myself, i think it's a wonderful and selfless thing the Op is doing. I don't see my father's headstone as something especially private. I can also see the long term benefits. As years pass many of these stones will be very difficult to read,especially if there is nobody to tend the grave. G really don't think anyone should be giving the OP a hard time. I commend your effort and appreciate what a pain staking process it must be.

me myself

Welfare fraudsters steal identities from the dead
By Tom Brady Security Editor
Friday December 10 2010
CRIMINALS are scouring graveyards to steal the identities of the dead and then use them in a social welfare scam.

The welfare cheats check out inscriptions on headstones to select the identity of somebody similar in age to themselves.

The details are then used by the fraudsters to secure a birth certificate for the dead person and obtain a fake passport that contains their own photographs.

Gardai uncovered the scam as they investigated the activities of an organised crime gang. But they have not yet established the full extent of the fraud.

Several passports have been recovered by a large team of officers based in the south-east of the country. Officers disclosed last night that the fraudsters were claiming social welfare allowances legitimately under their own names in one county and then using the fake passports to collect dole payments elsewhere in the country.

"This is a very well-organised scam," one investigator told the Irish Independent last night.

"Sometimes they use the identities of people they know that have died in the recent past but most of the identities are taken from headstones, as a search of a cemetery gives them greater opportunities to find one that will match what they want.

"This has only come to light very recently as we dig deeper into the activities of the gang under investigation," he added.

A similar scam using the identities of the dead was used by the Provisional IRA about two decades ago when they were sending teams of terrorists overseas to carry out operations in Britain and in mainland Europe.

The gang involved in the latest fraud is based mainly in the south-eastern region and evidence of the identity theft was found during a series of garda swoops on houses in counties Waterford, Tipperary, Cork, and Dublin, on Monday.

A quantity of forged social welfare forms and false passports were seized and a large amount of documentation taken away by gardai is currently being forensically examined to help determine the size of the dole scam.

Gardai believe the gang is responsible for at least 45 crimes in the region, including suspected involvement in the murder of 48-year-old horse trader, Willie Stokes, last December. Mr Stokes, who was described by gardai as a soft target and an innocent man, was brutally stabbed in front of his 12-year-old son in the centre of Tipperary town.

He was believed to have been singled out by one side involved in a long-running feud between two extended families based in county Waterford.

Progress

Gardai said last night that they were now making substantial progress with their inquiries into his murder.

Garda had 14 suspected members of the gang in custody yesterday who were being questioned about a range of crimes committed over the past couple of years.

The suspects were all arrested in the wake of the searches, carried out by a team of 120 officers, and range in age from 16 to 45 years. They were arrested under section 50 of the Criminal Justice Act and gardai have already secured court permission to extend the period of detention for a large number of them.

Gardai also recovered a rifle, ammunition, a machine for reloading ammunition, and an air gun, as well as €10,000 of cocaine and cannabis, homemade weapons including slash-hooks and batons and documentation, laptops and home computers.

Among the suspected stolen goods recovered were satellite navigation equipment, mobile phones and equestrian and agricultural goods taken in burglaries in various parts of the country.

Detectives are currently cross-referencing the stolen goods with their files on the reported crimes.

- Tom Brady Security Editor

Irish Independent

pooch90

Ok, i didn't think of that...

Insect Overlord

Scare-mongering, tbh.

DT100

hellbent wrote: »

I'm making people aware that there's now an online facility to search for graves/headstones in St Patrick's Cemetery, Clonmel. You can search by surname or by year of death, or you can browse through the records by cemetery section.
At present, about 3/8 of the graves are listed, those in the left side of the cemetery from the chapel onwards. I hope to complete the work around April next, with approx 9000 individual records and maybe 3000 photos in total.
I can only include those graves with readable headstones - approx 1 in 20 are unreadable.

The website address is www.Crowleytree.info, and you can find the various search forms on the left-side menu under "Clonmel Cemetery". In addition, there is a layout plan of the plots to enable the plot number to be easily found.

All this is tedious work, so I'd appreciate feedback to see if its a worthwhile undertaking, especially for those living in the UK or USA. Or should I forget about it?

Its the first line that bothers me.....making people aware.....Are you telling or asking?......Maybe you should have asked relatives of the 3000 that you snapped,if it was ok to do so.........

me myself

yeah but its a bit late now well at least he asked the fellow that cuts the grass if it was ok to take pictures of everybody else's family burial places sur what would he care as long as he didnt make a mess or ask him to do something.

Ponster

DT100 wrote: »

Maybe you should have asked relatives of the 3000 that you snapped,if it was ok to do so.........

In Ireland they don't actually have a choice once the cemetery (or in this case the council I suppose ) gives their "ok". The permission is given by the people who own the land (such as the Church for graveyards.).

I think it's a useful resource for people but does need the option to allow people to request that their gravestone be removed if they wish.

me myself

well maybe he should of went to the council and asked them first but i bet he knew what his answer would of been so instead he asked the caretakers i know these people personally and also know they would tell him to do what ever he wanted to do so they could carry on doing what ever they were doing before he came in,as if they give a ****e what he is doing in the place

topperanne

I am at present doing a family tree and have found that information costs quite a lot. Some websites charge a huge fee to view records and others like bruboru charge €5 to view a single record. When you have a common name, it all quickly adds up as you search for your particular strain of family. So I for one am delighted that somebody has taken the time and effort to list the tombstones (which are public information anyway), and I'd like to say 'Thanks, and keep up the good work'. As people get to know about this , I'm sure the website will be much used!!

me myself

topperanne wrote: »

I am at present doing a family tree and have found that information costs quite a lot. Some websites charge a huge fee to view records and others like bruboru charge €5 to view a single record. When you have a common name, it all quickly adds up as you search for your particular strain of family. So I for one am delighted that somebody has taken the time and effort to list the tombstones (which are public information anyway), and I'd like to say 'Thanks, and keep up the good work'. As people get to know about this , I'm sure the website will be much used!!

public information for people who live in clonmel ONLY

pooch90

Or can travel to Clonmel. God, that's a ridiculous point to make. What exactly is your issue? Apart from making snide jabs at someone who is trying to do something of actual value for the extended community. OP has already stated that anyone who is not happy to have theirs included can request it be removed, so what is it?

If someone was so so precious about their grave, maybe they should have been cremated instead. Would you have an issue with someone having a walkabout in the graveyard too? Or should they go and ask permission from the 3000 families too, just in case they might glance at their family grave? Reality check please.

me myself

pooch90 wrote: »

Or can travel to Clonmel. God, that's a ridiculous point to make. What exactly is your issue? Apart from making snide jabs at someone who is trying to do something of actual value for the extended community. OP has already stated that anyone who is not happy to have theirs included can request it be removed, so what is it?

If someone was so so precious about their grave, maybe they should have been cremated instead. Would you have an issue with someone having a walkabout in the graveyard too? Or should they go and ask permission from the 3000 families too, just in case they might glance at their family grave? Reality check please.

maybe freedom of speech and kindly keep your snide remarks about my families burial places to yourself i dont think thats any of YOUR business

pooch90

That doesn't answer anything. So, you're entitled to all the snide remarks you want about the OP/cemetery staff? Bit of double standard there. I, in no way made any snide remarks about your family's grave btw. If you choose to be buried in a public place then obviously people are going to be free to see it. It's a public place!

Freedom of speech? How about freedom of information? Do you honestly think that those abroad aren't entitled to search for their families gravestones? It's not always feasible to get family to send photos. How about those who are generations removed from the family that once lived in Clonmel but no longer have links here? Should they have to pay to see a date of death? As another poster said genealogy sites and resources are so bloody expensive. The fact that this is being offered is a great service to those doing this type of research.

As was clearly stated. If you don't want your family included they won't be. Simple.

Insect Overlord

me myself wrote: »

maybe freedom of speech and kindly keep your snide remarks about my families burial places to yourself i dont think thats any of YOUR business

Calm it down, please.

hellbent

I was away all last week, and so did not see the posting on this subject. There had been none for many many weeks, and as the topic had gone off the first page, I didn't regularly check for new posts, anyway.

Can I just say to "me myself" that I'm aware of peoples possible sensitivities about this website. That's why I stated that I would remove any record where I was asked to do so. Only 1 person has requested that I do so, since the site was launched last September-ish. Surely you can accept that it would be beyond anyone's means to locate & contact relatives for all the photographed headstones, to get approval for this project.

I initially intended the website to show old gravestones, but with a mixture of old and new intermixed graves throughout the cemetery, I decided to include newer ones too. Part of the reason for this was that a cutoff date for old graves was unfeasable, since many graves, though originally from the early 1900's, also had newer internments there too. Where to start, where to end?

I believe the project is a worthwhile service, it's free, and is probably of most use to those living abroad. Its only one of thousands of similar websites that have been doing this for years.

Thank you to those who supported the concept, here on this forum.

PS. The website is now at www.clonmelcemeteries.com ,(and not .ie as appeared in local press. My error.)

hellbent

The records for Old St. Mary's Graveyard, Mary St., Clonmel, are now available for searching and viewing on this website: www.clonmelgraveyards.com

The records cover the period mainly from 1700 to the early 1900's, and include the inscriptions, and images where available.

hblock21

Hellbent,

Can I congratulate you on an impressive piece of work. This is fantastic.

Keep up the good work

Thanks


p.s. may I suggest that you post a thread in the Genealogy section of this website as I'm sure it will reach many more people.

hellbent

Thanks for that suggestion, hblock21, I'll go about it asap.

Funkfield

As someone who has family buried in one of the graveyards listed, but does not live anywhere near Clonmel, I think this is a great idea.

Well done.

hellbent

Marlfield graveyard is now added to the search facility at www.clonmelgraveyards.com.
As with the other graveyards already there, you can view headstone images where available, and conduct your search in several ways.

Fionn

great resource, well done!

hellbent

Searchable records for St. Stephen's Graveyard, (Connolly Park), Clonmel, have now been added to the website. Images are included where they could be matched to the existing records.

www.clonmelgraveyards.com

hellbent

www.clonmelgraveyards.com has been extended to include information on Clonmel in times past. Information on old lanes, street names - past and present, plus many photos from throughout the 20th century.

You can visit directly from HERE, or first visit www. clonmelgraveyards.com, and click on a link from there.

Ponster

I think that the street idea is a great idea. As I get older I like to see a page referencing the changing names of the stores.

I think though that you should take a look at this thread as there are a few places missing that people living in town in the 80s/90s would perhaps call 'obvious'.

I'm sure that if you asked people to reply on this thread with any omissions then they'd be happy to help update and correct.

For example the KnickKnack Shop, 83 O'Connell Street used to be KK Discount and AFAIK it was "Brady's" video shop before that until it burned down ~1987 and Brady moved up to what is now Lifestyle sport.

Vizzy

This is a brilliant resource.
I meant to compliment you earlier but it got put on the back burner.

The new addition brings me back to when my mother used bring me shopping in Sparrow & Simpson,a truly amazing shop and if you were very good Ms Sparrow would give you a barley sugar stick.:)

Thanks again.

hellbent

To Vizzy and Ponster, thanks for your comments, suggestions and information - much appreciated.

In mentioning the site here, I'm hoping to avail of all your memories in order to fill out the missing information. My own memory is gone, I mean GONE, but now and then a flashback occurs and a name pops out.

The main gaps in the information are from the 1940's onwards, as earlier shopkeepers are often mentioned in old documents, and so I'm able to include them easily enough.
I'd be glad of any other names you can recall, and I'll take a look at the link from Ponster, in a few minutes.
My email is eamonn@clonmelgraveyards.com

Vizzy

Aw Ponster,now you have brought me back !
I'll have to read the whole thread but the memories are flooding back after reading just 2 pages
Nicky's chipper in Mitchell street with the pub out the back !

Memories !!!!

hellbent

Ponster, thanks a million for the link, I got huge amounts of info, and have it up on site now.
There were a few shops that I couldn't figure out. Could you or anyone else help?

Where exactly was The Horseman pub?, Gerrards?, and the Market Tavern?

O'Connors Chicken shop, on Gladstone - was it at Carl Scarpas or Options shops?

Was Brian Purcell Jewellers where Glamorous boutique(No. 82) or KnickKnack shop (No. 83) is?

I have Liptons placed at No. 71, where Phelans shoes is? Someone else states it was at No. 70, the old Ulster Bank. Can anyone say which is correct?

There was a pub at approx. 58 O'Connell St,(Cuileoga premises) owned by Mr. Power, it was short-lived. What was its name?

Finally, where was DECK1, music shop?

Thanks in advance for any and all info that can be provided.

tippspur

Wasn.the Horseman pub in Anglasea street just across from the side Denis Lacy hall,It's a bookies now I think.

hellbent

Yes Tippspur, thanks, I remember it now. 'Twas Mulroy's pub in the 1950's, and maybe it also was a Mulroy who operated it as The Horseman.

Ponster

hellbent wrote: »

the Market Tavern?

On Market street actually

I think it became the back end of Mulcahys.


http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Clonmel,+Ireland&aq=1&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=56.899383,135.263672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Clonmel,+County+Tipperary,+Ireland&ll=52.353908,-7.701577&spn=0,0.004128&z=19&layer=c&cbll=52.353931,-7.701278&panoid=YoqfBHPVQpBgdEDCn3_rug&cbp=12,216.65,,0,0.29

hellbent

Well, obviously I expected it would have been on Market Street, but I had thought that that particular premises went straight from being Leo Wallace's Garage to being part of Mulcahy's, and I couldn't think of another premises that might fit the bill. (I was living in Waterford during those years!).

Ponster

hellbent wrote: »

Well, obviously I expected it would have been on Market Street, but I had thought that that particular premises went straight from being Leo Wallace's Garage to being part of Mulcahy's, and I couldn't think of another premises that might fit the bill. (I was living in Waterford during those years!).

I drank in there about 1991 though I can't be exactly sure where it was except that when you stepped out of the bar you faced Emmet street. Was the lane down to Mulcahys always there?

hellbent

Ponster wrote: »

I drank in there about 1991 though I can't be exactly sure where it was except that when you stepped out of the bar you faced Emmet street. Was the lane down to Mulcahys always there?

Yes, the lane is Elbow Lane, L-shaped, and also exits onto Gladstone St. It's been there more than two hundred years, I think. Are we talking about the same lane?

Ponster

hellbent wrote: »

Yes, the lane is Elbow Lane, L-shaped, and also exits onto Gladstone St. It's been there more than two hundred years, I think. Are we talking about the same lane?

Yep. That means that Market Tavern used to be where Lloyds Express is now.

Who says otherwise ?

hellbent

Ponster wrote: »

Who says otherwise ?

Not I. Definitely not I.

Vizzy

Hellbent,

O'Connors poultry shop was probably Options.From my memory of the size of the shopfront Carl Scarpa is just too wide but the door in to O Connors was in the middle of the shop and up 2 steps

Gerrards was where the "Office" pub used to be and it was called the Tara Arms.

Brian Purcell's jewellery shop was where Glamorous boutique is now.

The pub on the Cuilleoga site used to be Mr Powers vegetable/grocery shop,don't ever remember it as a pub though

In relation to Liptons I am guessing that was where the Ulster Bank is/was because Phelans shoeshop was run by the Phelan family for the last 40 years at least and I don't think that the Bank was there that long( I knew the first bank manager there Paddy McQuillan and he moved down from the North in about 1974/5)

Deck 1 -you have me beat,any clues to where it was ?

Just in relation to the Market Tavern,the owner Joe Walsh sold it and has now joined the priesthood.

tippspur

hellbent wrote: »

Yes Tippspur, thanks, I remember it now. 'Twas Mulroy's pub in the 1950's, and maybe it also was a Mulroy who operated it as The Horseman.

Yep,it was Peter Mulroy that ran the Horseman.

hellbent

Thanks again lads.

Deck1 was somewhere on O'Connell St., another thread on boards.ie said. Other than that I don't know.

I've settled on Liptons being on the old Ulster Bank site, thanks.
Brian Purcell was at his premises for a long number of years, and I have placed Brennans, Greengrocers before him in the same premises around the same time. Could it be he was actually located at the MK Sports premises, one shop to the left?
I asked someone about Market Tavern, and it seems before that it was Shanahans pub, known to some/many? as "Mammy Blues".

Re The Tara Arms, was there a Squash Club there around the same time? I seem to recall there might've been.

Overall, I'm amazed at the number of premises that have changed hands over the last 20-30 years. I've now put up what I have for Mitchel Street, and there's much to be added there too!

Thanks again for your inputs.

DT100

hellbent wrote: »

Thanks again lads.

Deck1 was somewhere on O'Connell St., another thread on boards.ie said. Other than that I don't know.

I've settled on Liptons being on the old Ulster Bank site, thanks.
Brian Purcell was at his premises for a long number of years, and I have placed Brennans, Greengrocers before him in the same premises around the same time. Could it be he was actually located at the MK Sports premises, one shop to the left?
I asked someone about Market Tavern, and it seems before that it was Shanahans pub, known to some/many? as "Mammy Blues".

Re The Tara Arms, was there a Squash Club there around the same time? I seem to recall there might've been.

Overall, I'm amazed at the number of premises that have changed hands over the last 20-30 years. I've now put up what I have for Mitchel Street, and there's much to be added there too!

Thanks again for your inputs.

I think Deck 1 was where wurlitzer are now...I have a feeling the shop was a wool shop [knitting etc]after deck 1 went.A bit of useless information on why Deck 1 was called that...The guy that ran it name started with a K,and the shop opened on December first.....

Vizzy

DT100 wrote: »

I think Deck 1 was where wurlitzer are now...I have a feeling the shop was a wool shop [knitting etc]after deck 1 went.A bit of useless information on why Deck 1 was called that...The guy that ran it name started with a K,and the shop opened on December first.....

Hellbent,there was also a record shop and music store at No 31 Mitchel Street( beside what is now Clonmel travel,I think) owned by Dave Primm and he also taught guitar in a little room out the back.

In relation to Deck1 you are right I think,there used definitely be a music shop and subsequently a wool shop there.

In relation to Bob Fitzgeralds on O Connell St,before him this was Pierces(general hardware,the same as Bob Fitzgerald)

hellbent

Vizzy, thanks for confirming Deck1 and info re 31 Mitchel St. I was away the last 3 weeks and so only got to see this post today.

pudzey101

you now have to PAY to use, some JOKE !!

MapForJ

pudzey101 wrote: »

you now have to PAY to use, some JOKE !!

pay to use the cemetary site?

pudzey101

MapForJ wrote: »

pay to use the cemetary site?

ya a fee of 10euro?!! thats some state, it was all free up untill wednesday:)

MapForJ

pudzey101 wrote: »

ya a fee of 10euro?!! thats some state, it was all free up untill wednesday:)

people should get the pics removed he is trying to cash in on loved ones deaths. also the cemetary is not to my knowledge a public place, it is the ownership of council and he said he did not have permission except from a caretaker