Car Tax, Court Summons

Live4Ever

Well gotta go to court tomorrow cause I was hit with a summons cause my tax disc was up. Just wondering if anyone has gone through this??

When I was stopped I had my tax paid two days before and was waiting for the disc. Typical! I have a letter from the tax office which reads:

I wish to confirm that vehicle registration (car reg) taxed expired on the 31st of December 2009.

The vehicle was then taxed on the 26th of February 2010. This vehicle was taxed for 3 months from the 1st of February 2010 to the 30th of April 2010. Arrears were paid for the 1st of January 2010 to the 31st of January 2010. The total amount for this transaction was 127 euro.

The vehicle was then taxed on the 2nd of July 2010. This vehicle was taxed for 3 months from the 1st of July to the 30th of September 2010. Arrears were paid for 1st of May 2010 to the 30th of June 2010. The total amount for this transaction was 160 euro.

What are the chances of not getting a fine/ penalty points?

Thanks for any input!

TestTransmission

When were you stopped?And was it only the once?

Mr Magners

Live4Ever wrote: »

I wish to confirm that vehicle registration (car reg) taxed expired on the 31st of December 2009.

The vehicle was then taxed on the 26th of February 2010. This vehicle was taxed for 3 months from the 1st of February 2010 to the 30th of April 2010. Arrears were paid for the 1st of January 2010 to the 31st of January 2010. The total amount for this transaction was 127 euro.

The vehicle was then taxed on the 2nd of July 2010. This vehicle was taxed for 3 months from the 1st of July to the 30th of September 2010. Arrears were paid for 1st of May 2010 to the 30th of June 2010. The total amount for this transaction was 160 euro.

What are the chances of not getting a fine/ penalty points?

Thanks for any input!

Am I right reading that twice you allowed your tax to expire, for January and then May & June?

That letter is going to prove to the judge that you regularly allowed the tax to expire and have to pay arrears to bring it back up to date.

I think you're defo looking at a fine. Haven't a clue how much though.

ILA

I would imagine that if you were taxed at the time and awaiting the disk you would have gotten the chance to produce proof of that.

I would contact the Court Office and produce this letter to the Court Clerk before the time of the actual hearing.

Otherwise you're looking at a fine, and even if you produce this you'll get either a fine or an earful, or both.

Saruman

I was in the same situation. New car, no tax. Tax was paid before I was stopped but obviously no disk yet.
In my case, the Garda told me to present the disk to Finglas Garda station within 10 days. I did it within two. Unfortunately it was not recorded correctly that I was there and I got a fixed penalty notice. I challenged it, wrote to the superintendent and the case was dropped.

How did it come to the point of a court summons? I thought you should get a fixed penalty notice first and then if you ignore that you get a summons?

The fact it has gone to court means it is too late to contact the super.

mailforkev

So (and correct me if I'm wrong here of course) between 1st January and 30th September you let the tax expire twice and had your car completely untaxed for over 100 days?

If I was the judge the book would be thrown at you for showing such a blatant disregard for the law.

I would expect a fine at the very least.

Live4Ever

Well I got stopped on the 2/3 and had tax paid from the 26/2.

Look, everyone forgets to tax their car, especially these days. I paid all arrears aswell so I'm hardly a hardened criminal.

I told the Garda it was paid, even after I got the fine. Then 5 months later when I had completely forgotten about this incident and thought it was done and dusted a Garda calls to my door with a summons.

I will ring the clerk in court as suggested and see where that takes me.

Thanks for the help so far. Id be happy with a €150 fine I guess which I think is the minimum in this situation...

kasper

i would think the garda that stopped you originally checked some months later on the motor taxation computer to see if your car had a current tax disc and when it didnt he proceeded with the summons

corktina

Live4Ever wrote: »

Look, everyone forgets to tax their car, especially these days. QUOTE]

I don't...

Mr Magners

corktina wrote: »

Live4Ever wrote: »

Look, everyone forgets to tax their car, especially these days. QUOTE]

I don't...

Either do I, and I think if the guards had approached me about it a few months previously I'd be that bit more mindful of it.

If I was the judge the book would be thrown at you for showing such a blatant disregard for the law.

I would expect a fine at the very least.

I have to agree with that also.

VinnyTGM

3 months on, 2 months off doesn't seem to work for you.

dunsandin

I'm with Saruman - how the hell did you manage to get summonsed for this?
On the advice front, dont represent yourself, get a solicitor to tell your lies story for you- they have more experience and can do it with a straight face/no blushing or getting flustered - at least my one can. You don't need to go looking for one, they can be found hanging around outside the courthouse/room, and if you approach one (you can tell them by their slightly smug, slightly superior look) and ask him/her/it to represent you, they will usually jump at the chance to hear their own dulcet tones ejaculating forth upon the law. Given that you are the unluckiest christian in the Coliseum to be have been unable to spoof explain to the guard nicely that you had actually paid the tax and be let on your way, the judge will take you for an easy touch and you may well end up getting charged with stealing shergar - get a brief and let him/her/it talk you out of it.

cadaliac

you will have a day in court but if you can prove that your car tax has been paid up to date in full, then it only needs to be explained to the judge. It doesn't really matter what previous tax offenses you have committed if you have paid all the fines.
Just make sure all is paid up in full and that you can prove that you had paid for tax on the date you were stopped - which from what i can read, is what you have told us.

Esel

kasper wrote: »

i would think the garda that stopped you originally checked some months later on the motor taxation computer to see if your car had a current tax disc and when it didnt he proceeded with the summons

I wouldn't.

galwaytt

Mr Magners wrote: »

Am I right reading that twice you allowed your tax to expire, for January and then May & June?

That letter is going to prove to the judge that you regularly allowed the tax to expire and have to pay arrears to bring it back up to date.

I think you're defo looking at a fine. Haven't a clue how much though.

The letter will show that the defendant, whilst sometimes remiss, is a diligent taxpayer, and never elects to claim he doesn't use the car when not taxed (like so many do.....), and always pays the arrears in full. You have a letter from the Co Co to back that up, and it should be put to the Judge in that way, imho.

ILA wrote: »

Otherwise you're looking at a fine, and even if you produce this you'll get either a fine or an earful, or both.

I don't know, I've found Justice's to be quite sensible, on honest cases, tbh.

mailforkev wrote: »

So (and correct me if I'm wrong here of course) between 1st January and 30th September you let the tax expire twice and had your car completely untaxed for over 100 days?

If I was the judge the book would be thrown at you for showing such a blatant disregard for the law.

I would expect a fine at the very least.

What a crass statement. For a start, you're wrong. Letting a tax disc expire in and of itself, is not illegal. Secondly, he has always paid his arrears, in full. Disregard for the law, and tax evasion would be him NOT paying arrears. He has a proven record of full compliance, and evidence to back it up. That he is a little remiss in the timeliness of his paperwork does not make him a criminal, and in these trying times (sic), actually shows him making a valuable contribution to society, rather than dodging it, like so many others.


[edit] actually - OP, what is the actual offence you've been summoned for ? Driving an un-licenced vehicle, or non-display of a tax disc ? (not the same thing, btw.......)

morg

I was in court yesterday for non display of tax disc on 05/09.Taxed the van on 06/09 for the year.The judge looked at the disc and fined me 500 euro. Lesson learned.All no shows got fines for the same amount

Mr Magners

galwaytt wrote: »

What a crass statement. For a start, you're wrong. Letting a tax disc expire in and of itself, is not illegal. Secondly, he has always paid his arrears, in full. Disregard for the law, and tax evasion would be him NOT paying arrears. He has a proven record of full compliance, and evidence to back it up. That he is a little remiss in the timeliness of his paperwork does not make him a criminal, and in these trying times (sic), actually shows him making a valuable contribution to society, rather than dodging it, like so many others.


[edit] actually - OP, what is the actual offence you've been summoned for ? Driving an un-licenced vehicle, or non-display of a tax disc ? (not the same thing, btw.......)

Surely if the tax disc expires on the car and it is driven on a public road it is being driven as an untaxed vehicle. Is that not illegal?(not a smart answer btw, a genuine question)

I also think that if the judge sees a track record of failure to pay tax when it's due (which it states in the letter he has done twice) it shows an on-going disregard on the part of the OP for road tax obligations. Once is always possible but twice is negligence imo.

ILA

Live4Ever wrote: »

Look, everyone forgets to tax their car, especially these days. I paid all arrears aswell so I'm hardly a hardened criminal.

I've been around a lot, travelled in car pools, etc, etc. and I personally have NEVER came across a person "forgetting" or in any way being unaware that their car was not taxed at that particular time.

In fact, it was more the opposite. All were fully aware of their vehicles status.

So pull the other one.

Live4Ever

galwaytt wrote: »

The letter will show that the defendant, whilst sometimes remiss, is a diligent taxpayer, and never elects to claim he doesn't use the car when not taxed (like so many do.....), and always pays the arrears in full. You have a letter from the Co Co to back that up, and it should be put to the Judge in that way, imho.

Actually - OP, what is the actual offence you've been summoned for ? Driving an un-licenced vehicle, or non-display of a tax disc ? (not the same thing, btw.......)

Hi guys,

Thanks for the feedback, even though some was a bit harsh.

The offence is no-display of a tax disc. As I said previously I had paid my tax, including arrears 4 days before being stopped. It arrived in the post the next day if my memory is correct.

I am not going to court acting all innocent as if I was not at fault etc. I guess I'm looking for "damage limitation" on the fine front. Surely the judge will take this into consideration since it was paid etc. It might be worth mentioning I have no previous record of any crime and I am 21. I also have no penalty points.

Fair enough about "forgetting tp pay my tax" I wont be swinging that line on Friday, I should have paid it etc but in fairness to me I did pay arrears, its not like I was dodging it.

I also managed to get a different letter which states the following. Its basically a shortened version of the original.

Dear X,

I wish to confirm that vehicle registration XXXXXX taxed expired on the 31st of December 2009.

The vehicle was then taxed on the 26th of February 2010. This vehicle was taxed for 3 months from the 1st of February 2010 to the 30th of April 2010. Arrears were paid for the 1st of January 2010 to the 31st of January 2010. The total amount for this transaction was 127 euro.

Live4Ever

ILA wrote: »

I've been around a lot, travelled in car pools, etc, etc. and I personally have NEVER came across a person "forgetting" or in any way being unaware that their car was not taxed at that particular time.

In fact, it was more the opposite. All were fully aware of their vehicles status.

So pull the other one.

Come on, there are people driving around without insurance or a license (or both) and your giving me a hard time about paying car tax a month late? I paid the arrears it's not like the state is at a loss.

Viper_JB

Live4Ever wrote: »

Come on, there are people driving around without insurance or a license (or both) and your giving me a hard time about paying car tax a month late? I paid the arrears it's not like the state is at a loss.

When it comes to car tax the high horse brigade come out in force.

Best of luck with the case, if all the back tax was paid then I'd say the inital fine would be 60 euro, but I'm not too sure if they may double this because it went to court - generally works that way with points (double the points/fine if convicted in court), you should be fine though - just state your case clearly and don't be a jerk, also expect a fine - shouldn't be too harsh, plenty of these cases are thrown out everyday. If it was only a month out then it seems like a complete waste of court time. There's no chance of getting penalty points here. I guess best case scenario you might getta way with it. Worst maybe 120....anything more and it'll be down to the judge "trying to make an example" and just taking the piss really.

Live4Ever

Viper_JB wrote: »

When it comes to car tax the high horse brigade come out in force.

Best of luck with the case, if all the back tax was paid then I'd say the inital fine would be 60 euro, but I'm not too sure if they may double this because it went to court - generally works that way with points (double the points/fine if convicted in court), you should be fine though - just state your case clearly and don't be a jerk, also expect a fine - shouldn't be too harsh, plenty of these cases are thrown out everyday. If it was only a month out then it seems like a complete waste of court time. There's no chance of getting penalty points here. I guess best case scenario you might getta way with it. Worst maybe 120....anything more and it'll be down to the judge "trying to make an example" and just taking the piss really.

Thanks mate.

Sure not paying car tax is worse than murder! :rolleyes:

Yeah I am expecting some sort of fine alright. I can deal with E120 or around that its a fair result really.

If I get more (one poster got E500) I wont be a happy camper! The case is 2pm so I'll be hoping the judge had a delicious lunch and put him in a good humour!

Viper_JB

Nah it'd be pure madness for them to fine you that much or even anywhere near that amount in your particular case. Let us know how you get on, it's a pretty intimidating experience. If you're in at 2 there'll probably be a few cases up before ya so you'll get a bit of a feel for the situation, will probably put you at ease a bit when you hear the scumbags being done for robbing cars etc..

Live4Ever

Viper_JB wrote: »

Nah it'd be pure madness for them to fine you that much or even anywhere near that amount in your particular case. Let us know how you get on, it's a pretty intimidating experience. If you're in at 2 there'll probably be a few cases up before ya so you'll get a bit of a feel for the situation, will probably put you at ease a bit when you hear the scumbags being done for robbing cars etc..

Yeah I'll put up a post when it's all over with the details, could help someone else.

Yeah I imagine it's very intimidating, although it could be a bit interesting seeing how it all works, the only court experiences I have are on TV .

Esel

Try to find and speak to the Garda before the case is called. Show him/her the proof that the tax was actually paid before the alleged offence. There is a fair chance they might ask the judge to strike out the case.

galwaytt

Mr Magners wrote: »

Surely if the tax disc expires on the car and it is driven on a public road it is being driven as an untaxed vehicle. Is that not illegal?(not a smart answer btw, a genuine question)

I also think that if the judge sees a track record of failure to pay tax when it's due (which it states in the letter he has done twice) it shows an on-going disregard on the part of the OP for road tax obligations. Once is always possible but twice is negligence imo.

I appreciate your question, it's fair, and you're right, driving it untaxed is an offence. However, that is not what he got pulled for, and that's not what is at issue. He got pulled for non-display, which is a separate offence, and which you can get if your vehicle is taxed, but the Garda just plain can't see it. (say, if it fell off, and was on the floor.)

Your second point isn't an offence either: failing to pay motor tax on time. There is an offence for using a vehicle without it, but no such offence with regard to the method/timing of paying it, or not. Whether you pay it on time, or in arrears, you still pay it. Some people are naturally remiss, and the arrears rule allows for the human condition. That and the fact that fear can bring in revenue !

Live4Ever

So the big day in court came and went.

I arrived at 1pm, an hour early and sat in the court room. Close to 2pm the Gardai came in. I found the guy who summonsed me. I showed him the summons, my tax disc from that time and the letter from motor tax Ireland. He read through them and said "OK that's all in order you can go home now, I'll strike it out when it comes up. You had it all paid, waste of time bringing you in to be honest. I'll look after it." YES!

So that was it, got to go home before any case had even started. For reference I was wearing a suit to make a good impression etc. Pretty much everyone else there were scumbags in tracksuits. Didn't even have to give excuses etc, once he read the details he let me go.

Thanks for the advice lads, hope this is helpful.

brownej

Live4Ever wrote: »

So the big day in court came and went.

I arrived at 1pm, an hour early and sat in the court room. Close to 2pm the Gardai came in. I found the guy who summonsed me. I showed him the summons, my tax disc from that time and the letter from motor tax Ireland. He read through them and said "OK that's all in order you can go home now, I'll strike it out when it comes up. You had it all paid, waste of time bringing you in to be honest. I'll look after it." YES!

So that was it, got to go home before any case had even started. For reference I was wearing a suit to make a good impression etc. Pretty much everyone else there were scumbags in tracksuits. Didn't even have to give excuses etc, once he read the details he let me go.

Thanks for the advice lads, hope this is helpful.

Well congratulations. That was a result for you so.

CiniO

Live4Ever wrote: »

So the big day in court came and went.

I arrived at 1pm, an hour early and sat in the court room. Close to 2pm the Gardai came in. I found the guy who summonsed me. I showed him the summons, my tax disc from that time and the letter from motor tax Ireland. He read through them and said "OK that's all in order you can go home now, I'll strike it out when it comes up. You had it all paid, waste of time bringing you in to be honest. I'll look after it." YES!

So that was it, got to go home before any case had even started. For reference I was wearing a suit to make a good impression etc. Pretty much everyone else there were scumbags in tracksuits. Didn't even have to give excuses etc, once he read the details he let me go.

Thanks for the advice lads, hope this is helpful.

And now you will get a verdict with big penalty for not appearing in the court
Heh - only joking. I don't believe it can be the case.

Absurdum

just goes to show what an utter waste of time and resources that little round bit of paper in the windscreen is

gerrycollins

just goes to show how daft the system is. the OP should have been given 10 days to present at a garda station and would have saved the court clerk 20 mins and a crap load of paper work including time spent by the Garda sitting at a desk and not out on the beat.

CiniO

I think that whole system is a bit strange.
Tax is very expensive, and penalties seems to be quite small.
If people can let the tax run out, if they get pulled over and checked, then they can easily pay in arrears, and everything's fine. If they weren't stop, probably some of them would never buy that tax, and just claim that they were not using the car.
Beside from what I read in that thread penalties - if someone'll get one which is quite unlikely - are something between 200 - 500 euros. What's the point if tax costs between 100 and 2100.
If someone with car taxable at 100 is probably stupid to risk it, then owners of cars which cost 2100 a year, probably would try to chance to save the amount, because most likely the worst that can happen will be 500euros fine which is only 25% of tax.

Esel

Paying arrears after you have been stopped does not make everything fine. You will be prosecuted for non-display, and for use of an untaxed vehicle.

Also, if you are stopped and your tax is more than two months out of date, the Gardaí have the power to seize your vehicle on the spot. So, as well as being prosecuted as above, you will have to pay (€160, I think) to retrieve the vehicle after you have paid the tax.

CiniO

esel wrote: »

Paying arrears after you have been stopped does not make everything fine. You will be prosecuted for non-display, and for use of an untaxed vehicle.

Also, if you are stopped and your tax is more than two months out of date, the Gardaí have the power to seize your vehicle on the spot. So, as well as being prosecuted as above, you will have to pay (€160, I think) to retrieve the vehicle after you have paid the tax.

According to what I read in that thread, it's all quite unlikely.
And even it if happens, that penalties are nothing comparing to 2 grand annual tax. It might be worth risking for some people.

It's just funny when I hear the biggest penalty is 500euros, but tax can be over 2 grand.

I remember reading somewhere about penalties for not using the motorway vignette in Czech republic. I'm not sure if that was in real, or just plans, but it made sense for me.
Pretty much everyone in Czech republic who is using motorway, is supposed to display a vignette, which is a proof that they paid for motorway. You just buy a vignette for 10 days, month, or a year, and with it you can use any motorway in the country. Without you can't.
Vignettes are pretty cheap (I think it was something like 6 euros per 10 days, 10 euros per month, or 30 euros per year).
The only problem was, that it's very hard to controll it, as there were no automatic cameras scanning them. So all the control was up to police force stopping the cars (usually on exits from motorways).
As it was quite unlikely you will get pulled over for check, lots of people didn't bother buying them.
So the idea was IMHO good - huge penalties. Something like 3000 euros for not displaying the vignette.
Do you think anyone's going to risk 3000 euros just for a sake of saving a couple of bob for vignette? I doubt it.

Live4Ever

My car isnt that expensive to tax, like E330 for the year. I can see why some people whos tax can be over E2000 would take a chance. The maximum fine you can get is E1000, and I doubt you would ever be given that fine (unless you hadn't taxed your car in years). Road tax is quite expensive but that's a debate for another thread.

I guess if you do get stopped, just pay the arrears and the next 3 months tax and show it to the Garda as soon as possible and he should let you off.

Viper_JB

Congrats on the hastle free court appearance btw

Live4Ever

Viper_JB wrote: »

Congrats on the hastle free court appearance btw

Thanks mate, couldn't have gone any smoother tbh.

sophie1234

i was in court for this a while back in the four courts in town i was so worried id be hit with a big fine! went in sat around for 2 and half hours till it was my turn name called the judge asked had i paid my arrers i said yes he said strike out that was it off i went when i was stoped my tax was 3 months out then i went got tax for a year and paid my arrers. it was the biggest waiste of time going to court!
wish they had looked at it at the start so i didnt have to sit there!

Blazer

I at least once a year let my car tax expire for 3 months and if caught (only twice in fairness) use the excuse I'm just back from Poland at work and plan to do it the minute I get can time off for it....always works
To the do-gooders..I pay about €30,000 a year in taxes so fúck em..I deserve a break now and then..

bladespin

Mr Magners wrote: »

Surely if the tax disc expires on the car and it is driven on a public road it is being driven as an untaxed vehicle. Is that not illegal?(not a smart answer btw, a genuine question)

I also think that if the judge sees a track record of failure to pay tax when it's due (which it states in the letter he has done twice) it shows an on-going disregard on the part of the OP for road tax obligations. Once is always possible but twice is negligence imo.

I''m unaware of any law that says you have to continuously tax a vehicle , don't see whaer the OP says he was driving the car without tax, I'm pretty sure your previous tax record wouldn't mean anything in court. I'm always running out the tax on my bikes, never had any hassle for gardai etc.