Reading at a wedding

swiss

I've been asked to do a short reading at my brothers (catholic) wedding. The reading is one of those prayers of the faithful. The exact text is:

Me: For all those present here today, that God may keep them safe in His love. Lord hear us

All: Lord, graciously hear us.

I don't wish to disappoint my brother, especially at his wedding, but I have no desire to intone specious inanities. I know it's harmless enough nonsense, but it is nonsense. To be honest I'd feel hypocritical in doing so, given that I feel the church is a corrosive force in society that would be better dispensed with.

Am I being po-faced? Should I just go and get it over with and bite my tongue (or not, in this case). Or would it be better to politely decline and explain that given my lack of faith, perhaps I would not be best suited for a prayer of the faithful?

kippy

swiss wrote: »

I've been asked to do a short reading at a my brothers (catholic) wedding. The reading is one of those prayers of the faithful. The exact text is:

Me: For all those present here today, that God may keep them safe in His love. Lord hear us

All: Lord, graciously hear us.

I don't wish to disappoint my brother, especially at his wedding, but I have no desire to intone specious inanities. I know it's harmless enough nonsense, but it is nonsense. To be honest I'd feel hypocritical in doing so, given that I feel the church is a corrosive force in society that would be better dispensed with.

Am I being po-faced? Should I just go and get it over with and bite my tongue (or not, in this case). Or would it be better to politely decline and explain that given my lack of faith, perhaps I would not be best suited for a prayer of the faithful?

Does your brother know about your lack of religion?
If so it seems like a sick joke - especially given the content of the prayer itself.
Praying for the sick/dmof wouldnt be so bad.

abouttobebanned

Sometimes we watch the x-factor to please our wives eventhough we think it's nonsense. This is a silly analogy but it's relevant all the same.

You're doing it for someone else. Simple as that.

NothingMan

I would just tell him you're glad he wants to include you in his wedding but you don't think it would be appropriate to do a reading. I'm sure he won't mind.

I know it may be easier to just go up and spew out the words politley and I wouldn't blame you but I personally wouldn't do it. I respect my families beliefs/traditions enough to attend, wish them the best of luck etc... but I wouldn't actively participate in the religious part of the day.

amacachi

kippy wrote: »

Does your brother know about your lack of religion?
If so it seems like a sick joke - especially given the content of the prayer itself.
Praying for the sick/dmof wouldnt be so bad.

Have to agree with this, sounds like he's just being cheeky.

AudreyHepburn

swiss wrote: »

I've been asked to do a short reading at my brothers (catholic) wedding. The reading is one of those prayers of the faithful. The exact text is:

Me: For all those present here today, that God may keep them safe in His love. Lord hear us

All: Lord, graciously hear us.

I don't wish to disappoint my brother, especially at his wedding, but I have no desire to intone specious inanities. I know it's harmless enough nonsense, but it is nonsense. To be honest I'd feel hypocritical in doing so, given that I feel the church is a corrosive force in society that would be better dispensed with.

Am I being po-faced? Should I just go and get it over with and bite my tongue (or not, in this case). Or would it be better to politely decline and explain that given my lack of faith, perhaps I would not be best suited for a prayer of the faithful?

Would it be so hard for you to put aside your own beliefs for one day for your brother?It's only one line of prayer.

Your brother wants you to be a part of his special day. It's not about you or your beliefs.

Just go with it. He hasn't asked you to become Catholic or to try to indoctrinate anyone. Are you so selfish you would put your own ideas before your brother on his Wedding day?

judas101

I was in a similar situation for my sisters wedding.

I just got on with it as I didnt want to cause a fuss.

Its not worth falling out over. Do it for your brother.

swiss

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Sometimes we watch the x-factor to please our wives eventhough we think it's nonsense. This is a silly analogy but it's relevant all the same.

You're doing it for someone else. Simple as that.

In principle I don't mind the idea of doing something I didn't like for the sake of someone else. If my brother wanted me to watch the xfactor for his wedding I'd happily do so, even though I do think that is nonsense too. This feels different however. Watching the x-factor doesn't publicly affirm a belief I am in fact opposed to.

kippy, yes he does know I'm not religious, though I don't think he is aware that I'm also quite anti-religious or that I removed myself from the Catholic club membership list a few months ago. Still, it is a bit of a cheeky request.

ColmDawson

Tell him you wouldn't feel right having a role that you wouldn't be able to put your heart into. Maybe offer to do something else (non-religious) so that you can play a part.

If he knows you're an atheist, it is a strange request.

AudreyHepburn

swiss wrote: »

In principle I don't mind the idea of doing something I didn't like for the sake of someone else. If my brother wanted me to watch the xfactor for his wedding I'd happily do so, even though I do think that is nonsense too. This feels different however. Watching the x-factor doesn't publicly affirm a belief I am in fact opposed to.

kippy, yes he does know I'm not religious, though I don't think he is aware that I'm also quite anti-religious or that I removed myself from the Catholic club membership list a few months ago. Still, it is a bit of a cheeky request.

Cheeky request?

Could it not just be that he wants to be able to share his day with the brother he loves?

Why would you assume he asked you to be cheeky or to put you out in some way?

Mark Hamill

swiss wrote: »

To be honest I'd feel hypocritical in doing so, given that I feel the church is a corrosive force in society that would be better dispensed with.

Have you tried telling your brother this?

Beruthiel

Swiss, when my Aunt was organising my Grans funeral she asked me to do a reading. As I have plenty of cousins/sisters/nieces etc, I just said, I'm an atheist, can you ask someone else. She had no problem with that.
Were I in your shoes, I'd just tell him I'm not comfortable affirming the 'god' bit and would happily do anything else for him except that.

optogirl

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Would it be so hard for you to put aside your own beliefs for one day for your brother?It's only one line of prayer.

Your brother wants you to be a part of his special day. It's not about you or your beliefs.

Just go with it. He hasn't asked you to become Catholic or to try to indoctrinate anyone. Are you so selfish you would put your own ideas before your brother on his Wedding day?

Firstly, OP is not being selfish in any way - he is asking what others think and I think it's fair enough. He has enough respect for his brother to consider that, because he does not believe what he is saying in the prayer, it may be better coming from someone else. The point is that he may as well be reading from a book of nursery rhymes for all it means to him personally and therefore perhaps his brother would prefer somebody who really meant what they were saying to do that prayer. You wouldn't expect him to read out a Jewish or Muslim prayer about God or Allah if he didn't believe it.

robindch

swiss wrote: »

For all those present here today, that God may keep them safe in His love. Lord hear us

Well, as kippy says, if your brother knows you're an atheist, then I'd have thought he's playing some kind of joke -- he's certainly not respecting your beliefs (and I'm sure that at your marriage, you wouldn't ask him to state publicly that his deity doesn't exist). If your brother doesn't know that you're an atheist, then I'd say that now is as good a time as any to tell him.

If, though, you're on for a laugh, then you could accept the invitation, but change the wording slightly:

For all those present here today, may all love and support each other for as long as each shall live. Lord hear us.

...which has the benefit of being a nice thing to say, and doesn't require you to compromise your principles. Or you could ask him if it would be ok to do this and I'm sure he'd be fine with it

MagicMarker

I wouldn't do it myself.

I don't really understand why a catholic would want someone who isn't a catholic to do this kind of thing?

NothingMan

robindch wrote: »

For all those present here today, may all love and support each other for as long as each shall live. Science hear us.

Alomost there .

sflemings

Surely with your stong beliefs against the church, shoudn't you have a bigger issue on your mind, like having to the church for the ceremony? From what I'm gathering, you have a problem reading out one line for your brother's wedding, yet seem to have no problem in sitting there for the ceremony.

MagicMarker

sflemings wrote: »

Surely with your stong beliefs against the church, shoudn't you have a bigger issue on your mind, like having to the church for the ceremony? From what I'm gathering, you have a problem reading out one line for your brother's wedding, yet seem to have no problem in sitting there for the ceremony.

What's wrong with sitting in a church?

NothingMan

sflemings wrote: »

Surely with your stong beliefs against the church, shoudn't you have a bigger issue on your mind, like having to the church for the ceremony? From what I'm gathering, you have a problem reading out one line for your brother's wedding, yet seem to have no problem in sitting there for the ceremony.

HUGE difference in attending your bro's wedding and respecting his beleifs and standing in front of everyone and making a statement you don't believe.

Unwilling

Me: For all those present here today, that God may keep them safe in His love. Lord hear us

All: Lord, graciously hear us

You can say it. It doesn't affirm YOUR belief in any way. It's just a statement.
In effect to you, it is no more different than asking kids to write to Santa every Christmas.
You didn'tget the reading say " we believe in one true god, lord almighty ... "

So, think of it this way, For all of those present today (who believe), that (your) God may keep them safe .......

And those who believe will say Lord Graciously hear us!

That way you are not declaring YOU believe and you wont' upset your brother on his special day.

Beruthiel

sflemings wrote: »

you have a problem reading out one line for your brother's wedding, yet seem to have no problem in sitting there for the ceremony.

In my mind, there is a rather large difference between turning up at a church for the sake of a loved one and standing up at an alter confirming that god exists.

ColmDawson

sflemings wrote: »

Surely with your stong beliefs against the church, shoudn't you have a bigger issue on your mind, like having to the church for the ceremony? From what I'm gathering, you have a problem reading out one line for your brother's wedding, yet seem to have no problem in sitting there for the ceremony.

Erm, presumably because sitting in the church allows him to be present for his brother's special day while remaining passive, whereas it takes quite a bit more involvement to stand before the congregation and make insincere requests to a deity he does not believe in.

sflemings

There's nothing wrong with sitting in a church. OP seems to have issues with God and the church. I would have thought that he'd have more of a problem with that than reading out a piece of text.

optogirl

sflemings wrote: »

Surely with your stong beliefs against the church, shoudn't you have a bigger issue on your mind, like having to the church for the ceremony? From what I'm gathering, you have a problem reading out one line for your brother's wedding, yet seem to have no problem in sitting there for the ceremony.

He doesn't have a problem with the ceremony?? He is not saying that he wants his brother to have exactly the same beliefs as him! If a Jewish friend invited you to their wedding would you refuse to go?

Stercus Accidit

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Would it be so hard for you to put aside your own beliefs for one day for your brother?It's only one line of prayer.

Your brother wants you to be a part of his special day. It's not about you or your beliefs.

Just go with it. He hasn't asked you to become Catholic or to try to indoctrinate anyone. Are you so selfish you would put your own ideas before your brother on his Wedding day?

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Cheeky request?

Could it not just be that he wants to be able to share his day with the brother he loves?

Why would you assume he asked you to be cheeky or to put you out in some way?

These two things don't work together.

And why is it that every reply I see of yours is from atop a high horse telling people to put aside their beliefs, compromise their own ideals, stop being "selfish" and so on and I can only read them in the snottiest of tones.

Can you not put aside your notions for one day and let the atheists have their conversation, or are you selfish.

Its better to make a point that can be debated or considered than to condescend and make blanket statements from some assumed moral high ground, in a debate focussed on ethics.

@OP

How would the congregation mumbling "lord hear us" or whatever the words they make in responce are, feel that the words they hold so dear are being spoken by someone who considers them ridiculous?

I think you should say to your brother you think it is hypocrytical of you to lead a prayer, and could you do something else for the consideration of the good catholics and your own ideals, something you could enjoy and as such feel more a part of his day. I suppose you could say you will do the prayer if he asks, but suggest a better alternative.

c_man

Had a similar issue myself at a funeral a while back. The prayer was all Jesus love etc. I didn't cause a fuss, but merely wrote a new one (asking people to give thanks to those who provide comfort to the dying in hospice) and asked my organising Aunt if that would be better. She agreed.

Maybe Robin's rewriting would be apt.

ColmDawson

sflemings wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with sitting in a church. OP seems to have issues with God and the church. I would have thought that he'd have more of a problem with that than reading out a piece of text.

Reading the text involves more than being in the church. Just being in the church is the least he can do and doesn't involve pretending to believe in their god.

NothingMan

Unwilling wrote: »

Me: For all those present here today, that God may keep them safe in His love. Lord hear us

All: Lord, graciously hear us

You can say it. It doesn't affirm YOUR belief in any way. It's just a statement.
In effect to you, it is no more different than asking kids to write to Santa every Christmas.
You didn'tget the reading say " we believe in one true god, lord almighty ... "

So, think of it this way, For all of those present today (who believe), that (your) God may keep them safe .......

And those who believe will say Lord Graciously hear us!

That way you are not declaring YOU believe and you wont' upset your brother on his special day.

That sounds awfully like that "reserved thought" crap the church use to ease their conscience when lying about their naughtiness! I'd rather be open and honest with people about that I believe.

sink

I did a reading at my Grans funeral. I was asked to do it as I was the eldest grandson by a long shot and the only one that really knew her before she went senile. I explained to my family that I would do it as a mark of respect to my Grandmother but that I didn't not believe in God and so the words would be empty in my eyes. They were okay with that and so I did the reading, no fuss.

I was personally comfortable with doing it, so long as I made myself clear and I wasn't hiding anything, others might feel differently. In the end it's a personal decision and we will all have our own feelings and rationalizations to deal with. Just be straight with people whatever your decision.

ColmDawson

NothingMan wrote: »

That sounds awfully like that "reserved thought" crap the church use to ease their conscience when lying about their naughtiness!

My thoughts exactly.

Zombrex

sflemings wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with sitting in a church. OP seems to have issues with God and the church. I would have thought that he'd have more of a problem with that than reading out a piece of text.

Bit of a difference between sitting in a church and leading a prayer in a church.

Imagine expecting a Muslim cleric to say that prayer, or a Hindu holy man. It would seem stupid. So why are atheists expected to pretend?

swiss

Just a clarification. It was actually my brothers fiancé who requested that I do the reading. I don't think she is aware of my disbelief so on that note I don't think there was anything malicious or cheeky in the request. I don't know if my brother was involved in that side of the planning so for the sake of it I'll assume he wasn't aware I was asked (or that in the organisational nightmare that is planning a wedding that one detail wasn't considered). On that note, I consider it a thoughtful request.

I suspect if I just explain that I'd rather not do it for the reasons I've pointed out, they will be fine with that. As suggested I can try to do something else for their day (I already have something in mind for that).

mailforkev

swiss wrote: »

I suspect if I just explain that I'd rather not do it for the reasons I've pointed out, they will be fine with that. As suggested I can try to do something else for their day (I already have something in mind for that).

This is probably your best bet, I'm sure they will be cool about it.

I suppose there's a reasonable chance that they are only having a church wedding because "it's just what you do" or because the bride just thinks the church is pretty anyway.

AudreyHepburn

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

These two things don't work together.

And why is it that every reply I see of yours is from atop a high horse telling people to put aside their beliefs, compromise their own ideals, stop being "selfish" and so on and I can only read them in the snottiest of tones.

Can you not put aside your notions for one day and let the atheists have their conversation, or are you selfish.

Its better to make a point that can be debated or considered than to condescend and make blanket statements from some assumed moral high ground, in a debate focussed on ethics.

I'm not being condescending in any way as you well know. I just think it is silly to be worry about one little line of a prayer if you don't even believe it.

I'm actually a little hurt you'd think that tbh. I'm the least condescending person you could meet, having beein bullied and looked down on most of the time as a teen.

That one line isn't going to affect the rest of the OP,s life is it?

He asked for opinions and I gave mine, nothing more.

What's wrong with saying the OP, in my opinion, would be a bit selfish if he put his own beliefs ahead of his brother on his brothers Wedding?

It's the brother's day, not his. Id be saying the same thing regardless of religion by the way.

Of course it's entirely up to him what he does, as it should be.

ColmDawson

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'm not being condescending in any way as you well know. I just think it is silly to be worry about one little line of a prayer if you don't even believe it.

I'm actually a little hurt you'd think that tbh. I'm the least condescending person you could meet, having beein bullied and looked down on most of the time as a teen.

That one line isn't going to affect the rest of the OP,s life is it?

He asked for opinions and I gave mine, nothing more.

What's wrong with saying the OP, in my opinion, would be a bit selfish if he put his own beliefs ahead of his brother on his brothers Wedding?

It's the brother's day, not his. Id be saying the same thing regardless of religion by the way.

Of course it's entirely up to him what he does, as it should be.

It comes across (to me anyway) as the old "why don't atheists just keep quiet about their lack of belief and stop spoiling everyone else's fun?" attitude.

I find it very strange if you honestly think a Muslim or Jew would be being selfish for politely declining to read a Catholic prayer in public.

Canis Lupus

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'm not being condescending in any way as you well know. I just think it is silly to be worry about one little line of a prayer if you don't even believe it.

It's the principle of the matter.

robindch

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I just think it is silly to be worry about one little line of a prayer if you don't even believe it.

Would you be happy to stand up in a mosque and pray to allah in front of a largish group of muslims?

hubba

There is no way on this earth that I, as an atheist, could be talked into saying a catholic prayer at the alter, no matter whose day it is. And I know none of my friends or relatives would ever expect me to either.

And it frankly astounds me that some think its ok to do so.

Beruthiel

swiss wrote: »

Just a clarification. It was actually my brothers fiancé who requested that I do the reading. I don't think she is aware of my disbelief so on that note I don't think there was anything malicious or cheeky in the request. I don't know if my brother was involved in that side of the planning

I think you'll find that most (I said most people!) men have very little involvement in the planning of a wedding. The nitty, gritty details bore them to tears.
You're new sis-in-law was involving you so you wouldn't feel left out.

I can try to do something else for their day (I already have something in mind for that).

That would be the way to go.

AudreyHepburn

ColmDawson wrote: »

It comes across (to me anyway) as the old "why don't atheists just keep quiet about their lack of belief and stop spoiling everyone else's fun?" attitude.

I find it very strange if you honestly think a Muslim or Jew would be being selfish for politely declining to read a Catholic prayer in public.

You're reading into it something that isn't there and I think you know that really tbh.

OP's lack of belief really doesn't bother me. I just think that it's right to put your beliefs ahead of some-one else on THEIR day.

I'm Catholic but I would have no problem reading a Jewish or Muslim reading for a friend or family member if they asked me to.

But that's just me and I'm only being snobby so what do I know?

AudreyHepburn

robindch wrote: »

Would you be happy to stand up in a mosque and pray to allah in front of a largish group of muslims?

If it was for a friend or family member, then no I would have no problem at all. I don't believe in it so it's not a problem for me. It won't cost me a second thought once it's done.

ColmDawson

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

You're reading into it something that isn't there and I think you know that really tbh.

OP's lack of belief really doesn't bother me. I just think that it's right to put your beliefs ahead of some-one else on THEIR day.

I'm Catholic but I would have no problem reading a Jewish or Muslim reading for a friend or family member if they asked me to.

But that's just me and I'm only being snobby so what do I know?

Considering how vague we have ascertained your beliefs to be, I'm sure you would be fine with reading prayers of various religions. Others, whose beliefs (or lack thereof) are firm and well-defined, would most likely have a very understandable problem with conforming to a practice they don't believe in, no matter for whom.

As for "I'm being snobby", this is just an example of the way you seem to feel anyone who disagrees with you is out to get you. I'm not out to get you, nor did I call you snobby or suggest that you were. Your posts would be a lot less tedious to read and reply to if you stopped acting like you're being persecuted.

sink

hubba wrote: »

There is no way on this earth that I, as an atheist, could be talked into saying a catholic prayer at the alter, no matter whose day it is. And I know none of my friends or relatives would ever expect me to either.

And it frankly astounds me that some think its ok to do so.

Clearly you are not comfortable with it and have stronger anti-religious feelings than I do. I really could care less about the religious implications, it means nothing to me.

I got up at my Grans funeral and said what I said to show support, sympathy and solidarity with my family. They all knew I was an atheist and a few words coming out of my mouth would not change that.

In the end it's about what each is personally comfortable with and everyone will have different levels.

Galvasean

I did a reading at my Grandfather's funeral. My mother asked me to do it since I'm the only one in the family that can read out in public without turning into a blubbering emotional wreck. I did it for her sake because she was very emotionaly fragile at the time and I didn't want to cause her any more stress. Much easier for me to just do it than have her try find someone else/teach them to speak.
Of course, looking back on it there is something very disrespectful in appearance having me stand on a podium and lie through my teeth at my own beloved grandfather's funeral. Disrespectful to me for having me do something I'm not comfotrtable with (by means of a guilt trip) and disrespectful to the faithful in having some atheist spew out lies from the sacred podium.

Now that i think about it, I'm never doing that crap again! In future it's gonna be "Thanks but no thanks" so to speak.

liamw

Galvasean wrote: »

Now that i think about it, I'm never doing that crap again! In future it's gonna be "Thanks but no thanks" so to speak.

What if it was your parents funeral? I'm still quite undecided on this one.
I thought I would rather say something nice in memory (but nonreligious) but that could come across as disrespectful too.

axer

I agree with Galvasean. If someone knows you are an Atheist and asks you to read some sort of prayer in church in front of religious people then they are not only being disrespectful to you but also to those religious people you are being asked to say the prayer in front of.

I would always respectfully decline such invitations. I have no problem being in the church but thats as far as it goes (although I did give 20c the last time I was in the church - won't be doing even that again the next time).

Ghost Buster

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

You're reading into it something that isn't there and I think you know that really tbh.

OP's lack of belief really doesn't bother me. I just think that it's right to put your beliefs ahead of some-one else on THEIR day.

I'm Catholic but I would have no problem reading a Jewish or Muslim reading for a friend or family member if they asked me to.

But that's just me and I'm only being snobby so what do I know?

Oh sweet FSM... here we go again. Once more round the block eh?

Galvasean

liamw wrote: »

What if it was your parents funeral? I'm still quite undecided on this one.

Good question. 'Luckily', as their son I would get dibs on one of those speaches where you get to talk about the deceased person, rather than a "This is the word of the Lord blah blah blah" prayers. That way I will be able to say my piece on the actual person in a respectful manner that everyone can relate to.

FWIW, when my mother asked me to do the piece at my grandfather's funeral it was a last resort as she could literally get no one else.

Zombrex

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If it was for a friend or family member, then no I would have no problem at all. I don't believe in it so it's not a problem for me. It won't cost me a second thought once it's done.

That is highly disrespectful don't you think, to lead a group in a prayer you don't believe in?

I've said this before, but the reason I don't partake in any of the spiritual actions in the church I'm in is because it is basically lying to people, which is disrespectful to them and their religion.

I'm rather shocked that some think it is better to lie and pretend to believe than to be respectful and truthful. I have to wonder if these people actually believe themselves.

The Mad Hatter

I think it's up to swiss whether he does it or not. I don't think it's a huge deal either way - I'm actually reminded a bit of the episode of Frasier where Frasier was asked to read for his son's Bar Mitzvah. I don't think most moderate religious people would have a major issue reading a prayer in another faith, as several here are arguing.

That being said, if I were asked the same, I'd probably do exactly as Robin suggested, and see if I could change the prayer to something which I personally agreed with and would feel comfortable directing at the congregation as well as at the ceiling.

Well swiss I'm glad you will offer to do something else, I think that sounds like a nice compromise. I know at weddings there can be non-religious type readings so one of those or even music or something is still a good contribution.
I couldn't read a religious reading like that myself.