WHAT CAN WE DO AS A NATION?

yardeyar

Hi, like everyone I have my opinion regarding the country and the mess were in made by a handful of greedy people who have ruined the lives of so many people in Ireland. I have just been watching the RTE news and I see now that the government have plans to introduce a water charge and a property tax in the next budget, as much as it kills me I will have to pay my part in higher taxes and levies so we can get the country back on its feet and get people working again but I refuse to pay these increase when our government, td’s, top civil servants are paid ridiculously high salaries.
We don’t seem to have leadership in Ireland, the government need to lead by example, now I know they reduced their wages some time ago but I feel by not enough, nobody needs the wages these people are on and their wage should be more no than €1,000.00 per week including all expenses and perks so I say that there should be a cap / ceiling of €52,000.00 for all ministers, td’s and civil servants in Ireland for the next four years till we get back on our feet. By reducing their wages would make a good impression on the people of Ireland and the world that these people are really making sacrifices to help their country but more importantly it would save a lot of money per year.
Now some people might argue that if we don’t pay high salaries we wont get the right people for the job, we have been paying these people top salaries for years and look at the mess were in. In France the people walk on the streets and stand firm and that’s what we need to do.
I also reckon we need “Business People” helping to run this country, after all, the economy of Ireland is a business and I don’t want someone that might be popular in their area that is able to get enough votes to look after my country, I want someone that will look after the pennies and then the pounds will look after themselves! YEAH!

futonic

We can't cut ourselves out of recession. We need to become more productive as a populous. Listening to Marian this morning and one of her guests had the suggestion that everyone work an extra half day a week, making the working week 5.5 days, maybe that's working every second Saturday, or just half day every Saturday. It would not be nearly enough to bridge the gap between what we earn and what we spend (-40%), but it'd be a start (+10%).

Liam Byrne

futonic wrote: »

We can't cut ourselves out of recession. We need to become more productive as a populous. Listening to Marian this morning and one of her guests had the suggestion that everyone work an extra half day a week, making the working week 5.5 days, maybe that's working every second Saturday, or just half day every Saturday. It would not be nearly enough to bridge the gap between what we earn and what we spend (-40%), but it'd be a start (+10%).

Many of us are doing that already in order to survive.

daithicarr

we need a sustainable tax base, which means more tax on things like income, not on things like property sales. Its hard to stomach more tax though when its not being spent very efficently. But none of the partys are really being honest about this.

political reform, civil service reform, local authority reform, reform of semi states, reduction of quangos and more efficent work practices in the public sector would hurt, education reform are amongst the things we need to address. more transperancy , people being appointed to positions on their skills and experiance ather than who they know etc. the list could go on.

dont really see any of the main partys really tackling these.

futonic

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Many of us are doing that already in order to survive.

Yes, I've no doubt; but imagine if everyone did it.

IveSeenFire

More Indigenous industry is what Ireland needs. We dont create anything. People think they can shuffle paper around and just make money.

I'm also surprised more people aren't rioting. No wonder Britain ruled us for 800 years.

Sunnyisland

futonic wrote: »

We can't cut ourselves out of recession. We need to become more productive as a populous. Listening to Marian this morning and one of her guests had the suggestion that everyone work an extra half day a week, making the working week 5.5 days, maybe that's working every second Saturday, or just half day every Saturday. It would not be nearly enough to bridge the gap between what we earn and what we spend (-40%), but it'd be a start (+10%).

In brooks in bluebell & sandyford thats what the staff have to do and there doing it since last year. that on top of the goverment levies:( and i am sure ther not the only ones

maringo

Abandon ship

RichardAnd

futonic wrote: »

We can't cut ourselves out of recession. We need to become more productive as a populous. Listening to Marian this morning and one of her guests had the suggestion that everyone work an extra half day a week, making the working week 5.5 days, maybe that's working every second Saturday, or just half day every Saturday. It would not be nearly enough to bridge the gap between what we earn and what we spend (-40%), but it'd be a start (+10%).

You can't work all the time. Weekends are there because if you work seven days a week you will be exhausted and unable to work properly. I don't pay too much heed to conspiracy theories but I have heard a few that would suggest the powers that be want the masses working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. I sometimes wonder if there is truth to this.

I don't live to work, I work to live and though I work hard to earn my 26k a year, I believe firmly that the 5 day week is enough to merit my wage. The weekend is my time to relax, work on my writing and music and allow my mind to be at peace before I return to the grind on monday.

futonic

RichardAnd wrote: »

You can't work all the time. Weekends are there because if you work seven days a week you will be exhausted and unable to work properly.

Working 6 days a week, was quite normal 40-50 years ago. Still quite common in many other non European countries. U.S. Korea, Japan, China, etc. The suggestion was just 5.5 days a week.

RichardAnd wrote: »

I don't live to work, I work to live and though I work hard to earn my 26k a year, I believe firmly that the 5 day week is enough to merit my wage. The weekend is my time to relax, work on my writing and music and allow my mind to be at peace before I return to the grind on monday.

What if you were wrong and your 5 day week, did not merit your 26k. What if the alternative was no job and emigration?

Fact is, we (generally - not specifically you) are getting grossly overpaid and are under productive relative to the rest of the world. We need to change that or we'll be leaving to work harder in a foreign country.

pete_mcs

If there is going to be a increase in income tax, a property or water tax then the government need to do a lot to prevent many of us in this nation from slipping below the poverty line.

I am, for example, working approx 60 work week to keep the bill and mortgage paid. I am not complaining because I was a year unemployed and struggled to find a job, and now that I have one I will work every hour available to repay my debt (unlike those w**kers in the banks and property developers)! By suggesting I also work an extra day wont work if you are already doing so.

We need to seriously cut the cost of living, focusing on the prices we pay for electricity, fuel and food, the basic human needs.

We also need to cut our VAT rate, its the only way to stop the exodus to the north that will begin shortly on the build up to Christmas. By all accounts the sterling/euro rate is already forcing these folks up north, so we need to reduce the vat to help stem this flow.

Manach

No thanks to working any extra hours to my 40 hour week. I'm quite lazy that way.
.... besides which like most people I've household/carer duties that take up time and also doing nightcourses to skill-up in case my current employer decides to move offshore.

futonic

Manach wrote: »

No thanks to working any extra hours to my 40 hour week. I'm quite lazy that way.
.... besides which like most people I've household/carer duties that take up time and also doing nightcourses to skill-up in case my current employer decides to move offshore.

Would you prefer to pay an extra 10% tax?

Obviously though it would not be something someone who is already working 60 hours a week. More for people who are on the standard 37.5-40 hour week, have financial comments and cant afford to take another cut in pay. Option for them, keep the pay/current tax rate, work an extra half day.

poppyvalley

yardeyar wrote: »

Hi, like everyone I have my opinion regarding the country and the mess were in made by a handful of greedy people who have ruined the lives of so many people in Ireland. I have just been watching the RTE news and I see now that the government have plans to introduce a water charge and a property tax in the next budget, as much as it kills me I will have to pay my part in higher taxes and levies so we can get the country back on its feet and get people working again but I refuse to pay these increase when our government, td’s, top civil servants are paid ridiculously high salaries.
We don’t seem to have leadership in Ireland, the government need to lead by example, now I know they reduced their wages some time ago but I feel by not enough, nobody needs the wages these people are on and their wage should be more no than €1,000.00 per week including all expenses and perks so I say that there should be a cap / ceiling of €52,000.00 for all ministers, td’s and civil servants in Ireland for the next four years till we get back on our feet. By reducing their wages would make a good impression on the people of Ireland and the world that these people are really making sacrifices to help their country but more importantly it would save a lot of money per year.
Now some people might argue that if we don’t pay high salaries we wont get the right people for the job, we have been paying these people top salaries for years and look at the mess were in. In France the people walk on the streets and stand firm and that’s what we need to do.
I also reckon we need “Business People” helping to run this country, after all, the economy of Ireland is a business and I don’t want someone that might be popular in their area that is able to get enough votes to look after my country, I want someone that will look after the pennies and then the pounds will look after themselves! YEAH!

yeah.. get rid of ministerial cars, that was one of the first things David Cameron did

digme

default, devalue and retake our country back.

RichardAnd

futonic wrote: »

Working 6 days a week, was quite normal 40-50 years ago. Still quite common in many other non European countries. U.S. Korea, Japan, China, etc. The suggestion was just 5.5 days a week.


What if you were wrong and your 5 day week, did not merit your 26k. What if the alternative was no job and emigration?

Fact is, we (generally - not specifically you) are getting grossly overpaid and are under productive relative to the rest of the world. We need to change that or we'll be leaving to work harder in a foreign country.

You are correct that many (though not all) in this country get grossly over paid for what they do. However, I do not believe that I am over paid as I am a computer programmer, not an administrator. However, what does seem crazy is that had I kept the PS job I had before going to college I would now be on 30k a year and working alot less hard. So yes, I agree that there is a spanner in the works here in relation to pay.

Benito

pete_mcs wrote: »

If there is going to be a increase in income tax, a property or water tax then the government need to do a lot to prevent many of us in this nation from slipping below the poverty line.

I am, for example, working approx 60 work week to keep the bill and mortgage paid. I am not complaining because I was a year unemployed and struggled to find a job, and now that I have one I will work every hour available to repay my debt (unlike those w**kers in the banks and property developers)! By suggesting I also work an extra day wont work if you are already doing so.

We need to seriously cut the cost of living, focusing on the prices we pay for electricity, fuel and food, the basic human needs.

We also need to cut our VAT rate, its the only way to stop the exodus to the north that will begin shortly on the build up to Christmas. By all accounts the sterling/euro rate is already forcing these folks up north, so we need to reduce the vat to help stem this flow.

Don't quite understand '60 work week' I hope you're not working 60 hours? Please!

I'm down 70 euro in weekly pay and am now on 12 hour shift. Lately I have been informed I have 5 hours overtime (who died?) But shopping..............Jeez it's a bitch! Nothing is cheaper despite what we're told. When's the last time you bought clothes or footwear? They won't cut the cost of service providers 'cos it goes straight to the exchequer and as you an me (you and I even) are paying while we are still employed............we are milk cows! Wanna go Anarchist or will God provide?

Hope you are permanent and it lasts till you get a better one:)

Enter Username

RichardAnd wrote: »

r, I do not believe that I am over paid as I am a computer programmer, not an administrator.

Come on now.. Computer Programmers are ridiculously overpaid.. especially programmers who work on a contact basis. Fair enough you put in the work getting your degree but the rates you charge are crazy.

Amhran Nua

futonic wrote: »

Working 6 days a week, was quite normal 40-50 years ago. Still quite common in many other non European countries. U.S. Korea, Japan, China, etc.

So was child labour. Are you seriously suggesting moving towards Chinese labour laws? Contrary to many of the hysterics on boards, we're actually fairly competitive these days, certainly enough to compete with the other first world countries that comprise nine of the ten global exporters. Also, look up the multiplier effect as it pertains to economic systems.

RichardAnd

Enter Username wrote: »

Come on now.. Computer Programmers are ridiculously overpaid.. especially programmers who work on a contact basis. Fair enough you put in the work getting your degree but the rates you charge are crazy.

Some are, but I am not. I would point out though that computer programming is not at all an easy way to make a living as programming can be difficult and it requires constant study to maintain one's knowledge. Further, only a small number of people ever can become programmers due to the mindset required and it's not simply a case of getting a degree.

srsly78

Enter Username wrote: »

Come on now.. Computer Programmers are ridiculously overpaid.. especially programmers who work on a contact basis. Fair enough you put in the work getting your degree but the rates you charge are crazy.

Cool begrudgery bro. I'm an Irish IT contractor. My "crazy rates" count as exports for Ireland, I sell services to hedge funds in London. It's all about supply and demand, there are very few top notch programmers out there. Instead of being praised for my enterprise (I run a small business) I have to keep my head down lest I be called a "fat cat".

And oh yeah, I earned a big fat nothing during the boom. It's only in the last 2 years the big money has rolled in. Instead of whining about it, how about you go get some education and jump on the bandwagon? You did do honours maths and get over 500 points right?

nadir

I'll second that, there's nothing easy about the IT business.
Just quit my job recently for a new one, but I spent the last 4 years making basically a loss just to get experience in a well known company.
Lots of people are coding for near minimum wage here, and put in many extra hours without pay.
It's very simple to say, other professions make all the money etc. I'll tell you from experience, there is nothing easy about working as a programmer.

Japer

futonic wrote: »

Working 6 days a week, was quite normal 40-50 years ago. Still quite common in many other non European countries. U.S. Korea, Japan, China, etc. The suggestion was just 5.5 days a week.

a lot of people in the private sector have to work like that already - if not harder- just to survive. Ask any self-employed. No 32 hour weeks , long coffee breaks, holiday pay, cushy pension or unemployment benefit for them. To answer the original posters question, the best thing we can do as a nation is eliminate the huge difference between public and private sector pay + conditions. We cannot afford to have a section of the country, the public servants, the highest paid in Europe. We cannot afford to continue to employ 30,000 more of them than we did in 2004. We cannot afford to continue to have them paid so much more than they were in 2004.

Enter Username

srsly78 wrote: »

Cool begrudgery bro. I'm an Irish IT contractor. My "crazy rates" count as exports for Ireland, I sell services to hedge funds in London. It's all about supply and demand, there are very few top notch programmers out there. Instead of being praised for my enterprise (I run a small business) I have to keep my head down lest I be called a "fat cat".

And oh yeah, I earned a big fat nothing during the boom. It's only in the last 2 years the big money has rolled in. Instead of whining about it, how about you go get some education and jump on the bandwagon? You did do honours maths and get over 500 points right?

No problem "Bro"..... I actually have an education, did do honours maths (although did not get 500 points, so there is a medal in the post for you). I work in a different field of IT and work with a lot of developers. As the previous poster said, it is hard to get good developers. My point is there is a lot of guys with very limited dev skills and just because they are "Qualified Delveopers" they can command sky high rates.

+ Welcome to Boards by the way!!

srsly78

I'm not new, am just keeping my head down because I'm a fat cat!

You seem to have missed the point about the exports, which is the only way Ireland can possibly recover. So, what am I doing to help the country out? I'm charging "crazy rates" and bringing real wealth into the Irish economy.

Guys with limited skills do NOT command "crazy rates", get that fantasy out of your head. As a contractor I have no job security at all, can be fired instantly. If you don't deliver value for money you end up on the street.

Also - I have no IT qualification whatsoever. Those microsoft/cisco certs are a joke.

Enter Username

srsly78 wrote: »

Also - I have no IT qualification whatsoever. Those microsoft/cisco certs are a joke.

They are only a joke in such as they are easily cheated. To pass them properly (especially Cisco) takes a lot if work.

Amhran Nua

srsly78 wrote: »

So, what am I doing to help the country out? I'm charging "crazy rates" and bringing real wealth into the Irish economy.

Keep it up! Do more!

johnboy_123

Enter Username wrote: »

Come on now.. Computer Programmers are ridiculously overpaid.. especially programmers who work on a contact basis. Fair enough you put in the work getting your degree but the rates you charge are crazy.

But thats the nature of contracts you get paid as your expendable when the job is done

futonic

Japer wrote: »

a lot of people in the private sector have to work like that already - if not harder- just to survive. Ask any self-employed. No 32 hour weeks , long coffee breaks, holiday pay, cushy pension or unemployment benefit for them.

I am self employed!

Tea drinker

Enter Username wrote: »

They are only a joke in such as they are easily cheated. To pass them properly (especially Cisco) takes a lot if work.

x2 Cisco CCNP here agrees with you.

pat_mas

Originally Posted by futonic
Working 6 days a week, was quite normal 40-50 years ago. Still quite common in many other non European countries. U.S. Korea, Japan, China, etc. The suggestion was just 5.5 days a week.

Yeah.... more hours per worker when there are 500K people at the dole ... that makes so much sense. Analysts they're always good when you wanna have a (cynical) laugh.

Futonic, since you're going back in time why don't you advise that we should work the whole week for near to nothing like our ancestors did during the Middle-Age !?!

mrgaa1

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/campaigners-set-out-plans-to-save-public-purse-billions-2364095.html
these proposals seem fair

More than €2bn could be raised for the public purse by overhauling pension tax breaks and introducing a small levy on company profits, campaigners said today.
Social Justice Ireland also wants text messages taxed as part of its alternative Budget which it says would create 100,000 part-time jobs for the long-term unemployed.
Other proposals include a student loans scheme to pay for third-level fees and a tax hike on gambling which would go towards higher social welfare payments.
Fr Sean Healy, director of Social Justice Ireland, said their plan would make €3bn savings in a much fairer way than has been done to date.
"The Government has made a complete mess of the banking crisis, to a point where it will cost us billions for years and years," he said.
"Secondly, it has over the last three Budgets savaged poor people so as to protect the richest.
"Thirdly, it has vandalised the economy. That's some achievement over three Budgets and I don't think it should continue."
Fr Healy said pension tax breaks - with a 20pc rate on lower incomes and a 41pc rate for higher earners - unfairly hit the less well-off.
This means four fifths of the benefit goes to the richest fifth, he said.
Introducing a standard rate would make a €1.4bn saving for the State finances, under the proposals.
A 2.5pc levy on all corporate profits - over and above the existing 12.5pc corporate tax rate - would raise another €632m.
Fr Healy insisted there was no evidence to suggest companies would leave Ireland if forced to pay a levy on their profits.
Social Justice Ireland also proposed:
- A 0.33 cent tax on text messages, raising €25m;
- An overhaul of tax breaks - as recommended by the Commission for Taxation - to save €552m;
- Long-term jobless given part-time jobs in public and voluntary sector, earning the equivalent of social welfare payments;
- An increase in social welfare payments of €5 a week for single people, and €8.50 for couples;
- Student loans to cover third-level fees and living costs, saving €445m.
Hitting out at the "macho" mindset intent on slashing public spending, Fr Healy said he agreed with the need to cut drastically Government borrowing.
But he insisted it could be done over a longer timeframe and did not need to be completed by 2014 - the Government's target.

seraphimvc

get the spirit up. work harder, be passionate and determined to improve productivity etc.

i mean, whoever spent time in other countries (eg Germany, England etc), will kinda understand the attitude of this nation is wrong in many ways. blame who? irish has never feel more powerful in the past 10yrs (aka Celtic tiger) than before, irish pride now take a lesson and will do well next time (probably after 20years from now on).

davoxx

well the answer is simple .. get rid of the clowns in control now .. that is step one.

Dorcha

The original question was: what do we do about the mess the country is in? The only option left to the ordinary person is to vote wisely in the next general election. The bankers and the developers may have been the cause of most of the damage to this country, but they only did what they did because they were let do it. This government (Fianna Fail and the Greens) were greedy, incompetent and arrogant. Who can say they are fit to run our country and what kind of strange person would vote for them again in the next election?

This government have abused their power and abused their own people to facilitate the wealthy. The fact is that money buys power and power attracts money. The only way the ordinary person can throw a spanner in those works is to vote them out. Some people will crib about voting for other parties: Fine Gael are the same as Fianna Fail and, while pretending to be otherwise, Labour are the same as well. All this is true, but as long as they masquerade as separate parties, we may as well use it against them. It’s the only weapon we have.

Fianna Fail have been in power for a long time, and look where it has brought us. For a democracy to have a chance, a government must be constantly kept on its toes. If they were constantly looking over their shoulders with the knowledge that waste and mismanagement would be penalised by the loss of their seats and power, then the chances of them working for the common good instead of for themselves alone would be greatly reduced.

davoxx

Dorcha wrote: »

The original question was: what do we do about the mess the country is in? The only option left to the ordinary person is to vote wisely in the next general election. The bankers and the developers may have been the cause of most of the damage to this country, but they only did what they did because they were let do it. This government (Fianna Fail and the Greens) were greedy, incompetent and arrogant. Who can say they are fit to run our country and what kind of strange person would vote for them again in the next election?

This government have abused their power and abused their own people to facilitate the wealthy. The fact is that money buys power and power attracts money. The only way the ordinary person can throw a spanner in those works is to vote them out. Some people will crib about voting for other parties: Fine Gael are the same as Fianna Fail and, while pretending to be otherwise, Labour are the same as well. All this is true, but as long as they masquerade as separate parties, we may as well use it against them. It’s the only weapon we have.

Fianna Fail have been in power for a long time, and look where it has brought us. For a democracy to have a chance, a government must be constantly kept on its toes. If they were constantly looking over their shoulders with the knowledge that waste and mismanagement would be penalised by the loss of their seats and power, then the chances of them working for the common good instead of for themselves alone would be greatly reduced.

implies we need to start our own party ... the boards party
where we use our collective wisdom in running the éire for the good of all.

the other thing we can do is all storm the dail, remove those who caused the problem ....

futonic

Dorcha wrote: »

This government (Fianna Fail and the Greens) were greedy, incompetent and arrogant.

Its scary to think, there are people out there who will think this.... in fact the Greens had bugger all to do with it. They were the one party before the last election who were warning about the construction bubble... but people won't remember that. They're just part of the gubberment now!

We get the politicians we deserve.

yardeyar

Hi, I agree with a lot of the suggestions and I have no problem working a few hours extra, but I'm not prepared to do it when civil servants including politicians are on high wages, expenses and perks, its not fair that the average person is struggling to make ends meet and these people have large salaries, we need leadership from the top and I think then people wouldn't mind sacrifices as much. When they come knocking on my door for there votes I’m going to hand them a letter outlining what I want the government to do if they want my and my families votes, and looking at your replies I think when I hand them the letter I will be speaking for a large percentage of the population of Ireland. YEAH!

Liam Byrne

Enter Username wrote: »

Come on now.. Computer Programmers are ridiculously overpaid.. especially programmers who work on a contact basis. Fair enough you put in the work getting your degree but the rates you charge are crazy.

Is there an award for "most inaccurate post of the day" ? :mad:

SOME might be ripping people off (as, unfortunately seemed to become par for the course over the last few years in this country) but don't go making ridiculous generalisations and tarring everyone with the one brush.

I recently lost a small contract (only a few hundred quid, but every little helps, these days) because someone offered to do it for €200; given that it was about 3 days work if done properly, that means that I was "competing" with someone who was happy to get €66 a day before tax.

Now since I'm someone who would be happy to get €150 a day if I got it every day - €3,000 a month / €36,000 a year seems like a mirage at this stage, I can 100% say that you haven't a clue what you are talking about in the above post.

RichardAnd

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Is there an award for "most inaccurate post of the day" ? :mad:

SOME might be ripping people off (as, unfortunately seemed to become par for the course over the last few years in this country) but don't go making ridiculous generalisations and tarring everyone with the one brush.

I recently lost a small contract (only a few hundred quid, but every little helps, these days) because someone offered to do it for €200; given that it was about 3 days work if done properly, that means that I was "competing" with someone who was happy to get €66 a day before tax.

Now since I'm someone who would be happy to get €150 a day if I got it every day - €3,000 a month / €36,000 a year seems like a mirage at this stage, I can 100% say that you haven't a clue what you are talking about in the above post.

Very true. I think that people see Google offices on TV and see the the staff playing pool or hear about Microsoft teams being brought out to pain ball tournaments and assume that this is part and parcel of the IT career. In fact, when I was in college, a class mate told me he'd love to work for Google. when I asked why, he replied "sure, why do ye think? They don't do nothin' all day!".

Let me assure you all that whilst many IT companies do treat their staff well, they expect hard work and high quality out-put in return. If you are a developer for Microsoft and you have a target to meet, you will be at you desk coding and not playing table football. Stuff like that is for breaks and after work.

yardeyar

....come on people, I stuck this post up about over paid civil servants / government and not about under or over paid IT staff....... lets get back on track please... I dont have an issue with the public sector..... YEAH!

pete_mcs

Think we have gone off the point here a bit!

Good point made earlier about cutting the difference between public and private wages.

The country needs to be streamlined, the red tape needs to be cut. All the way from the dail down to county councils. We need to reduce the amount of public servants and politicans doing the same jobs. We dont need multiple councelors claiming wages and expenses and doing little in return. Senators should be axed, cause god only know what use they are.

A reform of our electoral service needs to be introduced where as proper politicans, that are experts in their fields, gets elected to higher office, not just the local yokels, that have these jobs passed down through generations, with no skills but the ability to talk sh*te and get there electorate passports and planning permission.

thebman

Enter Username wrote: »

No problem "Bro"..... I actually have an education, did do honours maths (although did not get 500 points, so there is a medal in the post for you). I work in a different field of IT and work with a lot of developers. As the previous poster said, it is hard to get good developers. My point is there is a lot of guys with very limited dev skills and just because they are "Qualified Delveopers" they can command sky high rates.

+ Welcome to Boards by the way!!

Most developers make about as much or close to as sales people before commission.

Good sales people will usually double their salary by commission yet the developer is over paid :-/

The developer that gets no overtime yet is expected to work overtime, has to support his code and generally do 3 other jobs as well depending on the company.

There are some crap developers that try to take the p***, they are usually found out eventually or graduate to management...

The_Thing

RichardAnd wrote: »

Some are, but I am not. I would point out though that computer programming is not at all an easy way to make a living as programming can be difficult and it requires constant study to maintain one's knowledge. Further, only a small number of people ever can become programmers due to the mindset required and it's not simply a case of getting a degree.

Agree 100% with the above. I think when people see titles like "Learn < C++ \ Java \ PHP > In 24 Hours on the shelves of their local bookshop they get the idea that it's an easy way to make a living - however, if they were to have a look at Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years they'd get a better insight into what it takes to become a good programmer.

If Google can build an empire based on their use of open source software, then surely the Irish Government could save millions by weaning themselves off their reliance on the Microsoft stack?

RichardAnd

The_Thing wrote: »

Agree 100% with the above. I think when people see titles like "Learn < C++ \ Java \ PHP > In 24 Hours on the shelves of their local bookshop they get the idea that it's an easy way to make a living - however, if they were to have a look at Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years they'd get a better insight into what it takes to become a good programmer.

If Google can build an empire based on their use of open source software, then surely the Irish Government could save millions by weaning themselves off their reliance on the Microsoft stack?

Don't forget the 6 months FAS course in Java programming. Dat what them enganers do to make der money.

Good point about the state using OS software and it has come up before. However, can you imagine the chaos that would result if all CS departments switched from windows to Linux? The installation would have to be done by external companies (PS It staff, in my experience, can't format a hard disk) and this is before the huge level of training that would be required. I'm not saying PS workers are idiots but I just can't see 50 year old HEOs easily being weaned off Windows for nasty Linux .

However, money could be saved by not paying for things like Office when you can get OpenOffice for free which is, IMO, much better.

The_Thing

I agree that the switch to Linux \ Open Source couldn't happen overnight, but lots of governments around the world have successfully moved away from MS so why can't we?

My own personal experience of a public-sector IT dept is that they were more than just adequately competent at their jobs and I was suprised at the range of skills in the department - on the developers side of the dept there was one guy who had written a 3D C++ \ OpenGL game for his final year in College, and had done so after his lecturer having given the class free rein to develop in any language other than Visual Basic. Another had developed GIS Systems for several local authorities in England before coming to live in Ireland with his Irish wife.

I enjoy programming as a hobby because I can work on projects of my own choosing in Java \ C#, however I have in the past turned down a friend's request to help him develop web sites that he was working on as I just was not into doing it for the money - if I was not personally into what the site was about I wouldn't have the motivation to make a success of it.

Why Good Programmers Are Lazy

padrepio

Without getting into how investing in computer programmers will improve the country, there are things that can be done. But first

a general election is needed asap. Decisions that will affect the State permanently are being made by a Taoiseach that wasnt elected Taoiseach and the most unpopular government in history. That is not right and will only lead to more resentment publicly. The people need to speak and vote in a new government, the sovereignty of the country is at stake here. This is serious stuff. If it takes a week of a national strike to force an election then so be it. Where are the Larkin's, Connolly's, Collins etc today to say enough is enough??

My own view is that the current Taoiseach as his stints in Health, Finance and now have proved is that he is so far out of his depth it is untrue. What is his vision for Ireland, he doesnt have any frankly, a popular FF barfly who got to the top by being great craic on a night out. Lenihan possibly even more out of his depth, disastrous policy to guarantee bank debts (how do you all as taxpayers feel about picking up the tab for Sean Quinn's bet on Anglo share price!!!) maybe even like Cowen their hearts are in the right place but they are not qualified to be making decisions on Irish soverignty. Their stint has proved they are not up to the task of saving Ireland as an economic entity nor to recover.

What I would have liked to have seen from day one, was a temporary nationalisation of all banks seeking state assistance. How was Lenihan so naive to believe the likes of AIB (Dirt scandal anyone) and Anglo as to the state of their books?. If we has sent in a crack team of forensic accountants and sacked the boards of all the banks en masse it would have saved billions and a true picture would have emerged far earlier. BOI and AIB should have been properly nationalised and merged with a view to selling in a few years. Anglo and INBS sent to the liquidators. Sure it would have been a huge blow to the country with the likes of Quinn etc out of business but we would have reached ground zero quicker and the 35bn thrown into the Anglo black hole would be there now to pay our bills and invest in strategic projects.

Ireland is a small island relatively speaking, a national fibre broadband scheme, cross border even, should not be overly difficult to implement, generate decent employment and spawn significant economic activity. Australia are implementing one at present. Fibre broadband imo will be the artery of future trade in the way transport was previously. It is imperative if the country is anyway serious about recovering that a scheme is implemented. If it means selling more bonds, looking at PPP's, venture capitalists or whatever so be it. We used look not so long ago to be the first in Europe at things like the smoking ban - where is that ambition gone? This scheme would prove to markets, MNC's and the people at home that we are trying to recover. It would give hope to a country that lets face it we all want to thrive.

Other things - scrap the Metro in Dublin. We cant afford it at present. All that is required anyway is the Dart to be extended and possibly a quality bus corridoor.

Public sector reform is necessary. look we can all point to example of inept public service. having lived in various countries it isnt a uniquely Irish experience either. Incompetent overpaid lazy people arent a unique public sector phenomen either as I'm sure any of you that have worked in the private sector will confirm. If you viewed at a high level I reckon per capita we spent on average similar to many other countries on our public service. With our current bill our expenditure needs to be reduced but blindly just cutting expenditure will only cause longer term problems. We need a proper strategic review of the public service. I know people say consolidation doesnt work look at the HSE but we dont need county councils and various other quangos. I would argue consolidation does work - the HSE has actually made a difference Ireland has steadily climbed the EU ranking of public health systems since the formation of the HSE, bypassing the much vaunted NHS last year. An substantial strategic investment in IT is required to generate savings, look at how easy it is with Revenue now to log in and make your tax returns.

if the politicans are to retain any respect from the electorate then any cuts they implement for the public sector and social welfare need to be accompanied by huge cuts to their own budget. Mininsters cars, pensions, other perks - suspended indefinitely, expenses for lunches etc - bring your own lunch. The cost of running a government needs to be slashed. They need to be the example.

A national graduate scheme for indigenous SME's needs to be introduced asap. The state has invested millions into the current crop of graduates - the most highly qualified at any point in the history of the state and now turns a blind eye as they leave the shores. This like the brain drain of the 70s will be disastrous socially and economically for the country. Our indigenous SME sector has never fully developed and is a perfect fit. Let SME's apply to be part of the programme putting forward a decent plan for how they would treat the graduates. Graduates should have to apply for the scheme aswell. If even 2000 motivated grads stayed next year with the cost of their wages being borne by State and the SME's it could be of huge benefit to the country long term.

The cost of doing business must be reduced to make Ireland more competitive. We cant rely on our corporation tax rate forever and since the EU will be running the country soon, this will only be made clearer very soon. What I am on about is the cost of electricity, broadband, other utilities. Reducing the minimum wage is bull**** but again a bigger picture view would actually help business in Ireland ie pay your rates online before 1 March and get a 20% discount. Pay for next 10 years get 50% discount etc

Volthar

futonic wrote: »

Yes, I've no doubt; but imagine if everyone did it.

If everyone did it the employers would just dump some more people. Note that at the moment in many companies there is not enough work to maintain the current staff level.

johnboy_123

davoxx wrote: »

implies we need to start our own party ... the boards party
where we use our collective wisdom in running the éire for the good of all.

the other thing we can do is all storm the dail, remove those who caused the problem ....

Do you know what...you might have something there one thing about people on the boards it doesnt matter if I aggree or dissagree but there is always someone more knowledgable than yourself...I am amazed at time by some stats and figures that they have and put up...Its not a bad idea as the current top 4 parties F.F, F.G, Labour and Sinn Fein are all strewn with corruption and links to vested interest groups..We need a party that will first and foremost look after the people I mean is anyone on here that wouldnt take a job in the gov if they were getting paid half of what these clowns are on and then well we could give you vouched expenses aswell....Scoflow for Taoseach

johnboy_123

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Is there an award for "most inaccurate post of the day" ? :mad:

SOME might be ripping people off (as, unfortunately seemed to become par for the course over the last few years in this country) but don't go making ridiculous generalisations and tarring everyone with the one brush.

I recently lost a small contract (only a few hundred quid, but every little helps, these days) because someone offered to do it for €200; given that it was about 3 days work if done properly, that means that I was "competing" with someone who was happy to get €66 a day before tax.

Now since I'm someone who would be happy to get €150 a day if I got it every day - €3,000 a month / €36,000 a year seems like a mirage at this stage, I can 100% say that you haven't a clue what you are talking about in the above post.

Couldnt aggree more at least a computer programmer has something tangable and that works properly to give to the customer for whatever money they receive....Not like other professions

davoxx

I was not thinking about the money... just the fact the the clowns are wasting time .. and time is really running out. They made the corrupt choices again and again, and then they'll resign with a full pension .. write a few books ...

Boards has a lot of people who are willing to listen unlike the clowns in office now. Remember Bertie and suicide? I really think he should take his own advice and save us the cash.

Anyway a vote for The Boards Party is vote that is listened to.

Seriously I want to start up our own party. I think that is the first step .. I don't know how to start a party, but there is someone here who does

I reckon with no greed/corruption we can have this country turned around in 4 years (depends on how many porkies we have been told by the current clowns).