esb ct metering

grousedogtom

Hi all ,
The esb will be upgrading some of my customers farm supplies from 16 kva to 29 kva ct single phase metering in the next few weeks due to bigger motors and bigger milk bulk tanks been installed etc,i have been told by the esb i will need to run 50 square cable from the consumer unit to the new esb agri meter box, my question is do ye think 50sq is an overkill and since its single phase i was told 50 sq swa is not available in 3 core so what do i use 4 core and cut out a core and sleeve with blue and green/yellow for neutral and earth ?????? Any suggestions welcome.

M cebee

is there a special ip rated cabinet for that-are the tails protected in the cabinet or just esb cut-out

they may be looking for 50's alright

think it was 125amp breaker/fuse on the consumer side for 29kva


rules prob don't allow a phase colour to be taped-up as the neutral(last time i looked)

grousedogtom

Yes there is a new hinged door ip rated meter box for this purpose,no the tails are connected by esb as far as i know, if rules state i cant sleeve i havent much options

M cebee

someone more familiar might know the exact tails

would imagine a lot of guys will tape up one of the phases on the 4*50

2011

First of all I would suggest that you look at installing a 3 phase supply, it has many advantages as I am sure you know. Perhaps you have???

my question is do ye think 50sq is an overkill and since its single phase

We don't have enough information to answer that. What is the length of run for this cable??

i was told 50 sq swa is not available in 3 core

It is, but you may find that the colors are the 3 phase colors.

M cebee

out the country the SP high-capacity is common

3-phase prob not available

grousedogtom

3 phase not available

indie armada

just wondering who did you try for the cable? and how much of it do you need.

grousedogtom

Tried kellihers and was told 4 core an up , only need about 20 meters max.

indie armada

grousedogtom wrote: »

Tried kellihers and was told 4 core an up , only need about 20 meters max.

so your looking for 20mtrs of 50sq in single phase coulours, not sure myself if it exists but ill ring a few places in the mornin and try post back up by lunch.

M cebee

unlikely there's a SP swa that size-


is there a 3*50 at all maybe


should be permissible to tape-up these larger cables imo


i think the rules say no

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

is there a special ip rated cabinet for that-are the tails protected in the cabinet or just esb cut-out

they may be looking for 50's alright

think it was 125amp breaker/fuse on the consumer side for 29kva


rules prob don't allow a phase colour to be taped-up as the neutral(last time i looked)

Yea 126 amps is 29kva at 230v so 50`s does`t seem unreasonable even for a short run. I think its madness if the black cant be sleeved with earth heat shrink. Just do it and thats that. The neutral colour is already in the 4 core or is my memory completely gone now,

Normally a 4x50 swa requires a seperate 35 square earth run with it. Its core colours are brown black grey blue. So if used for a single
phase run i would of thought its- Brown, blue, and earth heat shrink on the black.

indie armada

rang a few places today, it is done but nobody in this country carries it. its available in the uk and the norm over here seems to be a 2x50 sq with a separate earth. one of the companys i rang has a 19 mtr lenght of 3x35sq at about 9.75 per mtr plus vat and i can get 4x50 sq at 19.50 per mtr plus vat. im alss unsure of the regs regarding sleeving the black.

Bruthal

indie armada wrote: »

rang a few places today, it is done but nobody in this country carries it. its available in the uk and the norm over here seems to be a 2x50 sq with a separate earth. one of the companys i rang has a 19 mtr lenght of 3x35sq at about 9.75 per mtr plus vat and i can get 4x50 sq at 19.50 per mtr plus vat. im alss unsure of the regs regarding sleeving the black.

There is just no major use for 3x50swa, if the regs dont allow sleeving of a black core as an earth then it seems a bit over regulated. If qualified electricians cant manage that without problems then why bother qualifying. I can understand not sleeving an earth or neutral colour as a phase, but a black phase colour as an earth does`t seem overly problematic. Its amazing a black has become a phase colour in my opinion.
A blue was a phase before as well. And black was neutral.
Maybe there is some reg about having the earth outside the swa cable? Induction and all that.
A job i was doin 5 or 6 years ago was 2 chillers with 4x240`s into them, they needed no neutral so we sleeved the blue as earth.
Did`t seem any problem there doing it.
OP will have to run a seperate 35 square earth with the 4x50 if cant sleeve the black as earth.

M cebee

anything over a 10 really on a continuous run-it should be allowed to sleeve the ends

imo

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

anything over a 10 really on a continuous run-it should be allowed to sleeve the ends

imo

Yes 100%. A continous unbroken run is a very good point. Once this is the case then wheres the problem.

M cebee

must go throught these rules again


but i think multicore 2-5 blue and gr/yell are supposed to be contnuous

fair enough for the smaller cables

grousedogtom

Thanks for prices etc indie and well said robbie about the sleeving it really is over regulated on that count.Esb will have a 125 amp fuse in there cut out and the full load of farm supply at peak time will pull a maximum of 100 amps , would 3 by 35 sq be not enough for this size load considering the mains run will be 20 meters or less?

M cebee

i would calculate the ccc of your swa according to install method anyhow


out of interest any consumer ocpd in the meter cabinet? for the tails?

what size ocpd you fitting?


is 50sq tails specified for 29kva?

Bruthal

grousedogtom wrote: »

Thanks for prices etc indie and well said robbie about the sleeving it really is over regulated on that count.Esb will have a 125 amp fuse in there cut out and the full load of farm supply at peak time will pull a maximum of 100 amps , would 3 by 35 sq be not enough for this size load considering the mains run will be 20 meters or less?

It would carry that load alright but the yellow van man/woman will want 50`s in id say. I think 35`s is max current of about 160 amps for the 70 degree c insulation. The lenght of run then decreases the capacity and the cable rating capacity would be well below the max. As example 1.5 has a max capacity of near 20 amps, but is rated for 10 amp protection.


But cables will always be sized/rated well within their capacity. 50`s has a max capacity of around 200 amps. Again reduced by length of run and well below the max.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

out of interest any consumer ocpd in the meter cabinet?

Who are they, i heard of the nypd alright, are the regs getting that tight now:D

M cebee

ah well -the rules require that tails are protected now (63amp mcb for 12kva)


just wondered if that is the case herefor the 29kva:)

may well be

grousedogtom

Done a similar ct job earlier this year and the esb connected my tails in the cabinet so i had no ocpd there just there 125amp fuse. Prob fit a 100amp switch fuse at my consumer unit and it is the esb insisting on the 50 sq tails.

M cebee

ok well you're hardly getting the full 29kva there

it's more like the 20

i fit an 80a mcb on the 16kva enhanced

grousedogtom

In a ct metering installation the Esb connect the tails not the contractor so i aint sure about the new reg on the consumer ocpd in this situation .

grousedogtom

Discrimination , Esb fuse 125 amp mine must be smaller?

M cebee

ya

must take a look at this sometime

last one i worked on(not my install)

i think it was 160 esb and 125amp consumer ocpd

it was rough commercial job -i took a pic

don't know much mind you

grousedogtom

Spoke with my ECSSA inspector today about the 3 by 50 not been available and the regulation not allowing sleeving of the4 core he said he passed it onto chief inspector and in turn onto ETCI .

M cebee

did you confirm it is a regulation?

think it is-daft really for bigger cables

grousedogtom

Yes its a regulation confirmed by inspector, i agree madness.

M cebee

pure nonsense on continuous lengths of large csa

i would ignore it anyway if i could get away with it

RoundyMooney

M cebee wrote: »

ya

must take a look at this sometime

last one i worked on(not my install)

i think it was 160 esb and 125amp consumer ocpd

it was rough commercial job -i took a pic

don't know much mind you

Twould be either 125 or 200A on the ESB side. 125 almost certainly I would say.

Discrimination isn't usually an issue on domestic, as a 63A neozed invariably pops before the 60A HRC. Where it's a DZII, the curves tend to favour the ESB fuse going first.

Bruthal

grousedogtom wrote: »

Yes its a regulation confirmed by inspector, i agree madness.

Complete madness, If it was me i would just sleeve it. Whats the thinking behind this rule. A black core with earth sleeve on it, i can almost see the terrible danger, and the confusion it would cause a sparks.