It shouldnt bother me, but it does

K-9

maringo wrote: »

I think the least we are entitled to is a breakdown of where exactly our money went when it was put into the hole that is Anglo. I'm mad as hell - I never gave my permission to any government to bankrupt my kids and grankids - how dare they use OUR sweat to bail that bank which was never a normal operating bank but seemed to exist to enrich a golden circle.

What about their accountants who examined and certified their accounts year after year? Is there no offence there?

The guy who drove his mixer lorry to the gates of Leinster House was arrested pretty sharply and quite rightly - in contrast. Did he beggar every man, woman and child into the distant future?

But one law for them and another one for us in this corrupt country!

Karl Whelan did a well balanced piece on it a few months back. Best piece I've read on it:

The Irish Economy » Blog Archive » Anglo: What Are The Options?

Gives you a general idea of where the money goes. Bear in mind he was basing those figures on a 50% NAMA haircut, it could well be 60-70% which will mean more money!

As for the Accountants, they usually have disclaimers regarding fraud etc. so probably covered by that.

Jev/N

Confab wrote: »

I'm preparing an article on this, but it boils down to a few words:
Ireland needs a Swiss-style pure democracy.

Exactly. We're lacking in our 'separation' of the three organs of the State... it's a winner takes all situation


And to the above poster, unless I'm mistaken you can't disclaim fraud, only negligence if you have the insurance to back it up. In this instance, the monetary limit on such insurance would have been obviously exceeded anyways

K-9

Jev/N wrote: »

Exactly. We're lacking in our 'separation' of the three organs of the State... it's a winner takes all situation


And to the above poster, unless I'm mistaken you can't disclaim fraud, only negligence if you have the insurance to back it up. In this instance, the monetary limit on such insurance would have been obviously exceeded anyways

Considering our penchant for "parish pump" politics and Independents, I'm not sure if the Swiss model is ideal.

As regards fraud, I think the disclaimer is, while Accountants may uncover fraud and obviously the onus is then on them to report it, an Audit should not be seen as the sole method of detecting it. The main responsibility lies with the Directors who run the company on a day to day basis.

th3 s1aught3r

K-9 wrote: »

As regards fraud, I think the disclaimer is, while Accountants may uncover fraud and obviously the onus is then on them to report it, an Audit should not be seen as the sole method of detecting it. The main responsibility lies with the Directors who run the company on a day to day basis.

So its was up to the people who were fraudulent to report themselves ?

K-9

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

So its was up to the people who were fraudulent to report themselves ?

Yep. These would be the people who are presenting the Accounts to the Auditors to check. We don't know how well hidden certain transactions were, transactions that obviously should have been brought to the Auditors attention, or should have shown up as irregular activities.

In short, certain transactions should have shown up like a sore thumb! If they didn't, I'd wonder why not and IMO, the directors would face serious questions. If they did, well...............

th3 s1aught3r

K-9 wrote: »

Yep. These would be the people who are presenting the Accounts to the Auditors to check. We don't know how well hidden certain transactions were, transactions that obviously should have been brought to the Auditors attention, or should have shown up as irregular activities.

In short, certain transactions should have shown up like a sore thumb! If they didn't, I'd wonder why not and IMO, the directors would face serious questions. If they did, well...............

I can imagine the conversation between the Auditor and Anglo
"Your accounts have been audited Seany , there are a few anomalies"

"Thanks a lot, I'll take care of it"

douglashyde

Herb Powell wrote: »

I agree but
underfunded hospitals=even ****tier health system

you have to say their wages and expenses are ****ing ridiculous, especially when they are telling people to take cuts

I agree there wages are high compared to your average Joe. However you have to look at this in a realitive context.

You'd expect that the salary of those running a country to be in line with a CEO that runs a large multinational company, however you would also expect them to be as qualified and competent as that CEO. In MY ideal world we would have top class business strategists, economists, accounts and marketers that came from the PRIVATE industry running this country - not people with a lifetime background in our inefficient civil service.

galah

so can anyone explain why the healthcare system was sh*t even during the boom, when the country was supposedly awash with money?

It's not like there weren't people on trolleys then...

what annoys me most - I didnt live the highlife during the boom, was barely on the average industrial salary. Now I'm lucky I still have a job - and yet am made to fund all the extravaganza and mistakes of the people who squandered it all recklessly...THAT really p*sses me off.

and I also think that some negative benchmarking of the public sector is in order - they were allowed to raise their salaries it to private sector standards, now they should lower it to those again as well...

th3 s1aught3r

I wonder who will get hit in the budget the hardest ?
I cant see the government taking on the public sector properly

th3 s1aught3r

galah wrote: »

so can anyone explain why the healthcare system was sh*t even during the boom, when the country was supposedly awash with money?

It's not like there weren't people on trolleys then...

Bad management I guess.
We are now being told that we are a low tax economy compared to other EU countries and taxes must rise. However these other countries have quality public services for their citizens, so we will have their taxes and still have **** services ?

Backard_Pell

K-9 wrote: »

A bank to fail?

If they'd let Anglo fail 2 years ago, people would care, a bit like Iceland now.

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind, but nobody wants to break the bad news.

Iceland are in a much better position than Ireland now, Iceland can borrow money at a much cheaper interest rate than Ireland.... plus, it has been announced that Ireland will no longer go to the bond market after the last 2 disasterous experiences... although the Irish state media will have us believe that it was successful.

If Ireland has decided to refrain from going to the bond market to sell Irish bonds, it will mean a draconian budget in December... meanwhile we continue to bail out Anglo Irish Bank to the tune of €29 billion.... and wait for it.... the government have decided not to disclose who we are actually paying this money to, its confidential information! And we sit there and take it........

So while the banks and bond holders will enjoy 20 years of collecting revenue at an exhorbitant rate of interest from the people of Ireland, we will have reverted back to our position in the 70's as a politically stagnant, peasant culture (with, now, the disadvantage of having to pay for the 'sin' of our aspirations, by means of a generational period of high taxation, SH!T healthcare and derelict public services)

and you can sit there and declare that 'sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind'

ascanbe

It shouldn't bother me, but it does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U6Hzjz5220

Backard_Pell

Backard_Pell wrote: »

Iceland are in a much better position than Ireland now, Iceland can borrow money at a much cheaper interest rate than Ireland.... plus, it has been announced that Ireland will no longer go to the bond market after the last 2 disasterous experiences... although the Irish state media will have us believe that it was successful.

If Ireland has decided to refrain from going to the bond market to sell Irish bonds, it will mean a draconian budget in December... meanwhile we continue to bail out Anglo Irish Bank to the tune of €29 billion.... and wait for it.... the government have decided not to disclose who we are actually paying this money to, its confidential information! And we sit there and take it........

So while the banks and bond holders will enjoy 20 years of collecting revenue at an exhorbitant rate of interest from the people of Ireland, we will have reverted back to our position in the 70's as a politically stagnant, peasant culture (with, now, the disadvantage of having to pay for the 'sin' of our aspirations, by means of a generational period of high taxation, SH!T healthcare and derelict public services)

and you can sit there and declare that 'sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind'

Some of these threads are crawling with Fianna Failers

K-9

Backard_Pell wrote: »

Iceland are in a much better position than Ireland now, Iceland can borrow money at a much cheaper interest rate than Ireland.... plus, it has been announced that Ireland will no longer go to the bond market after the last 2 disasterous experiences... although the Irish state media will have us believe that it was successful.

If Ireland has decided to refrain from going to the bond market to sell Irish bonds, it will mean a draconian budget in December... meanwhile we continue to bail out Anglo Irish Bank to the tune of €29 billion.... and wait for it.... the government have decided not to disclose who we are actually paying this money to, its confidential information! And we sit there and take it........

So while the banks and bond holders will enjoy 20 years of collecting revenue at an exhorbitant rate of interest from the people of Ireland, we will have reverted back to our position in the 70's as a politically stagnant, peasant culture (with, now, the disadvantage of having to pay for the 'sin' of our aspirations, by means of a generational period of high taxation, SH!T healthcare and derelict public services)

and you can sit there and declare that 'sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind'

You totally missed my point, but thanks for backing it up anyway!

40,000 households in Iceland are behind on their mortgages, out of a population of 250,000 odd though. Something to bear in mind.

Backard_Pell

K-9 wrote: »

You totally missed my point, but thanks for backing it up anyway!

40,000 households in Iceland are behind on their mortgages, out of a population of 250,000 odd though. Something to bear in mind.

Ireland's external debt as of Sept 2009 is $2.28 TRILLION... putting us in 7th place in the world (with a population of a little over 4 million people)

Iceland's is currently in 120th place

here is the link to the CIA Factbook

Now..... give a guess as to what Ireland's external debt was in 1998?
$11 billion you have to scroll well down the page to see this.

see link here

A few paragraphs of legislation would have prevented the absolute meltdown our economy is facing now. At least Iceland are trading their way out of it.... plus they are issuing charges of criminal negligence against the former prime minister and some of his cabinet.

So in a period of 11 years, Ireland's external debt went from $11 billion to $2,280 billion under the Fianna Fail government. (who should currently be locked up with Seanie Fitz, Fingleton etc)

Ireland is currently getting a rate of 7% for our 10 year bonds, and the reason why we are not going back to the bond markets is because nobody is interested in buying Irish bonds. The ECB had to step in and rescue us the last 2 times..... so please, can you tell me.... where the HELL is the government going to get the money to pay the PS wages and the social welfare etc. when no-one is buying Irish bonds anymore?

Brian Lenihan was made a fool of on a conference call last week to the traders in Europe; there were over 250 people on the conference call, wher Mr. Lenihan tried to explain why traders should buy Irish bonds. He was jeered at. People were heard saying 'short Ireland', which basically means dump Irish bonds.
Then he was told on no uncertain terms, that if Ireland comes back to the bond market again, we would be charged 10%. The conference call had to be abandoned as some of the traders were being insulting to Brian Lenihan.

So the markets already know the dire position Ireland has been left in.

We too, are facing a mega tsunami of mortgage defaulters in the new year. Since 2002, there have been 500,000 new mortgages issued in Ireland, out of a population of 4 million.... we cant pay that. The latter houses (2005 - ) all being purchased on overloaded mortgaging arrangements. Ireland's property-market-based, boom years were not just an anomaly, but a complete fiction.

but that is another days talk

Noreen1

To answer the OPs question:

The budget should do it - unless we hear more bad news before that, of course.

Noreen

th3 s1aught3r

Do you think we will start seeing home reposession next year, or will the banks write off that debt also?

mink_man

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

You really dont have a clue do you ?
Banks do not HAVE TO BE SAVED. We, or should I say the government, choose to save them, big difference

brainless, all our politicians are smart people, and anyone who thinks they aren't smart are thick as a plank, thinking ye'd do a better job.

Amhran Nua

Backard_Pell wrote: »

Ireland's external debt as of Sept 2009 is $2.28 TRILLION... putting us in 7th place in the world (with a population of a little over 4 million people)

Most of that is funds passing through the IFSC and has nothing to do with the Irish state or national debt.

mink_man

MagicMarker wrote: »

How many Irish speakers do we need?

oh right, so you want the irish language just to die? what about all the people who do speak it, if you spoke fluent irish you'd think differently.

AckwelFoley

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

I didnt have an interest in politics or politicians until recently when they started to give my money away to bailout the banks. Thats a failure on my part I admit
I honestly think the vast majority of people in the country are not interested in politics.
The problem with that is that they (politicians) are getting away with murder becasue of this general apathy , I think if people really cared they would be shouting louder than they are now
What do you think has to happen for the Irish people to say "enough" ??

A nations "apathy" will gauge how succesful a country is.

The general perception now is that we're fooked. And tbh, it pretty bad, however people as you said dont care about politics because it appears they dont need ot care.

If you look at countries where they really are in poor shape, ie many african nations and some south american countries, you will see a 95% turnout to the ballot box, and people will die to get there, because it has such an affect on them. However as much as we whinge and moan, most people will just do that because most people dont give a fcuk really and dont care because relatively speaking we are not badly off.

Its the truth, most of you dont want to hear that, but it is, right now relatively speaking we are better off than most countries in the world...

Easy way to test my theory. Cut off all social welfare payments in the morning, the lot.. unemployment, childrens allowance etc, and stop all expendature on health care.. within 1 month there would be more than peaceful demonstrations, there would be riots, and after these riots there would be a near 100% turnout to the next elections

Backard_Pell

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Most of that is funds passing through the IFSC and has nothing to do with the Irish state or national debt.

yes, its gross national debt... but can you explain to me how it has jumped by 2,269 billion (approx) in 11 years? why has this been allowed to happen? And how was it so low in 1998?

Also, the Germans are particularly unimpressed at the minute with the fact that Ireland owes the German banks €224 billion... and they are looking for that money back....

Now, to the half-wit who claims that our politicians are very clever people, please take a look at how Frank Fahey (you should know him) handles a debate with banking expert, Peter Mathews... be sure and watch how Frank Fahey tries to explain to Peter Mathews how NAMA works with the ECB,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNFbl525fkM

K-9

Backard_Pell wrote: »

Ireland's external debt as of Sept 2009 is $2.28 TRILLION... putting us in 7th place in the world (with a population of a little over 4 million people)

Iceland's is currently in 120th place

here is the link to the CIA Factbook

Now..... give a guess as to what Ireland's external debt was in 1998?
$11 billion you have to scroll well down the page to see this.

see link here

A few paragraphs of legislation would have prevented the absolute meltdown our economy is facing now. At least Iceland are trading their way out of it.... plus they are issuing charges of criminal negligence against the former prime minister and some of his cabinet.

So in a period of 11 years, Ireland's external debt went from $11 billion to $2,280 billion under the Fianna Fail government. (who should currently be locked up with Seanie Fitz, Fingleton etc)

Ireland is currently getting a rate of 7% for our 10 year bonds, and the reason why we are not going back to the bond markets is because nobody is interested in buying Irish bonds. The ECB had to step in and rescue us the last 2 times..... so please, can you tell me.... where the HELL is the government going to get the money to pay the PS wages and the social welfare etc. when no-one is buying Irish bonds anymore?

Brian Lenihan was made a fool of on a conference call last week to the traders in Europe; there were over 250 people on the conference call, wher Mr. Lenihan tried to explain why traders should buy Irish bonds. He was jeered at. People were heard saying 'short Ireland', which basically means dump Irish bonds.
Then he was told on no uncertain terms, that if Ireland comes back to the bond market again, we would be charged 10%. The conference call had to be abandoned as some of the traders were being insulting to Brian Lenihan.

So the markets already know the dire position Ireland has been left in.

We too, are facing a mega tsunami of mortgage defaulters in the new year. Since 2002, there have been 500,000 new mortgages issued in Ireland, out of a population of 4 million.... we cant pay that. The latter houses (2005 - ) all being purchased on overloaded mortgaging arrangements. Ireland's property-market-based, boom years were not just an anomaly, but a complete fiction.

but that is another days talk

As Amhran Nua pointed out and I've pointed this out to a few people quoting that, we don't owe that money. The majority of it is IFSC debt, which also explains the huge increase.

As for the bonds etc. completely agreed but there seems to be a naivety about alternatives. By all means go to Iceland and tell them how great they have it!

Backard_Pell

K-9 wrote: »

As Amhran Nua pointed out and I've pointed this out to a few people quoting that, we don't owe that money. The majority of it is IFSC debt, which also explains the huge increase.

As for the bonds etc. completely agreed but there seems to be a naivety about alternatives. By all means go to Iceland and tell them how great they have it!

and the €224 billion we owe the German banks? and how do you mean 'naivety about alternatives'? Iceland have their show on the road again, albeit a slow start... where as we have practically lost our soverignty. Germany are forcing Greece to sell off its islands to pay their debts to the EU... whats to stop them doing the same here?
And when you consider the position Ireland was in back in 2000, it is clear to see that the government took this thriving economy, and drove it straight into the ground...

AckwelFoley

reland is currently getting a rate of 7% for our 10 year bonds, and the reason why we are not going back to the bond markets is because nobody is interested in buying Irish bonds

.

Really? Our last bond auction was over subscribed 6 times.

"nobody is interested" is not accurate, somebody will always be interested, it simply depends on the value / interest rate

MagicMarker

mink_man wrote: »

oh right, so you want the irish language just to die? what about all the people who do speak it, if you spoke fluent irish you'd think differently.

If I spoke Irish I'd be thinking ''why the **** did I waste my time learning this pointless language when I could have learned something useful!''.

By all means keep Irish optional but there are more important things to be learning.

K-9

Backard_Pell wrote: »

and the €224 billion we owe the German banks? and how do you mean 'naivety about alternatives'? Iceland have their show on the road again, albeit a slow start... where as we have practically lost our soverignty. Germany are forcing Greece to sell off its islands to pay their debts to the EU... whats to stop them doing the same here?
And when you consider the position Ireland was in back in 2000, it is clear to see that the government took this thriving economy, and drove it straight into the ground...

Well if it's owed, I assume it will have to be repaid at some stage. What's the breakdown of it, how much is state guaranteed? I know of one bank in particular al right that the Germans are rightly pissed of about.

I keep hearing about Iceland but I think people are picking what they want to see there, eg. they have a lower unemployment rate of about 8/9% but missing the point that they had lower unemployment anyway, before the crash! Growth rates seem similar to ours and they aren't paying 18% interest rates anymore, 8/9% now.

What seems to have happened there is, instead of the Govt. bailing out the banks through the taxpayer, the taxpayer is doing it more directly, out of their own pockets, or not, to be more accurate, as they can't afford the payments!

Backard_Pell

snyper wrote: »

.

Really? Our last bond auction was over subscribed 6 times.

"nobody is interested" is not accurate, somebody will always be interested, it simply depends on the value / interest rate

Then why was the governer of our central bank, Mr. Patrick Honohan flying around the world, during our last bond sale, trying to sell Irish bonds, if our bonds were over subscribed as some of our papers stated.

And why have the government announced that Ireland is no longer going to the bond markets? We have enough to get us through the next 9 months, apparently, then its uncharted territory. Interesting article here
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/were-a-global-laughing-stock-and-we-fully-deserve-to-be-2362633.html


@ K - 9
dont know the breakdown, just saw the figure more than once, could trawl through the net finding more details... mentioned in this article

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/27/why-ireland-is-bailing-out-foreign-banks/

sleep tight everyone

AckwelFoley

Backard_Pell wrote: »

Then why was the governer of our central bank, Mr. Patrick Honohan flying around the world, during our last bond sale, trying to sell Irish bonds,]

I presume to sell them, if you have something to sell, you make it known..

Backard_Pell wrote: »

And why have the government announced that Ireland is no longer going to the bond markets? We have enough to get us through the next 9 months, apparently, then its uncharted territory. ]

The rate we are paying at the moment is alot more than we would like. They are essentially in my opinion taking a punt on stabilising the political and financial situation before going again in order to receive a more favorible rate


The reality is that they dont know how long it will be befor they need to go to the bond markets again, but the reality is that it doesnt make them incompitant for not knowing - its not the politicans that make these projections, the politicans are the mouth pieces that announce the projections made by their economists..

The reality is nobody knows, nobody has the answers, the reality is - its a best guess situation, regardless of how good or how bad they are its is only a guess, if they knew for certain, or if it was possible to know for certain, i could make alot of money putting my savings on red or black in the context of what should be dont

southsiderosie

Backard_Pell wrote: »

Iceland are in a much better position than Ireland now, Iceland can borrow money at a much cheaper interest rate than Ireland.... plus, it has been announced that Ireland will no longer go to the bond market after the last 2 disasterous experiences... although the Irish state media will have us believe that it was successful.

Yes, but a major difference there is that Iceland has its own currency which tanked big time and has yet to recover. For an island nation that has to import a lot of its basic goods, this has been disastrous.

They have also had to call in the IMF.

In addition, I don't think a lot of folks in Iceland think they are doing great given their behavior at the opening of their Parliament last week...

Protesters took to the streets of Reykjavik today, forcing MPs to run away from the people they represent as renewed anger about the impact of the financial crisis erupted in Iceland.

The violent protest came amid growing fury at austerity measures being imposed across Europe. Disruption in more than a dozen countries this week included a national strike in Spain and a cement truck driven into the Irish parliament's gates.

Witnesses said up to 2,000 people caused chaos at the state opening of the Icelandic parliament, with politicians forced to race to the back door of the building because of the large number of protesters at the front. Eggs were said to have hit the prime minister, Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir, other MPs and the wife of the Icelandic president, Ólafur Ragnar Grímsson.

<snip>

According to the writer Hallgrímur Helgason, anger has flared in Iceland because of the increasing numbers losing their homes and fury that only the former prime minister Geir Haarde has been charged with negligence over the financial crisis. The parliament voted this week to charge Haarde, who has said he is confident he will be vindicated, but not three others facing similar charges.

Iceland was at the centre of the financial crisis and took out loans from the International Monetary Fund and its Nordic neighbours after the collapse of three main banks in 2008.

Birgitta Jónsdóttir, one of three MPs to join the protesters, said: "There is a realisation that the IMF is going to wipe out our middle classes."