Dealer selling a car twice?

AndyWhite

Hi,
I recently went to look at a car that I was considering buying. I had a good look at the car, test drove it,and spoke to the dealer on a price of trading in my car against it. We agreed on a price and I put down a deposit. The dealer was to put the car through the nct for me then.
A few days later, I brought my mechanic out to see the car and confirm that I was getting an ok deal. We test drove the car again and me mechanic was happy.
Two days ago, I got a phone call from the dealer telling me that the car was burning oil and that it would never pass an NCT and he offered my deposit back. I said to him that I hadnt seen any excessive smoke coming out of the exhaust and he claimed that the reason for this was that there was in fact not enough oil in the engine for it to burn at the time. I put it to him that the oil light had not been on either time i test drove the car and he didnt really have much to say about that.
I spoke to my mechanic again straight away and he agreed with me and didnt think there was a problem with the car. I rang the dealer back again and told him I didnt want to pull out of the sale just yet and wanted to get another opinion on the car. He wasnt too happy about this and told me it wouldnt be legal for him to sell the car to me in this condition or something along those lines. I wont go into the full details of the phonecall unless someone wants more info! He told me he'd call me back yesterday (which he didnt) and after trying all day I managed to get through to him this evening.
He told me that the car is now somewhere down the country with some mechanic that he sold it to who is going to replace the engine.

Apologies for the essay there but I thought it would save people looking for more details. I'm just wondering what are my options here. Ive been told to go to the small claims court but what could I get out of that?

I have a receipt for my deposit with my name, the amount paid, the balance, the type of car and reg number and a signature of the dealer.
He took the ad for the car off carzone but i saved it to my computer last week.

Apologies again for the length of the message! any help or advice appreciated.

Also, to the mods, can I name the dealer so other people considering buying off him can be warned?

johnos1984

TBH I don't see what you case is.

He is giving you the money back and rang to tell you this.

I think its just something you should walk away from for two reasons:

• Maybe he is telling the truth
  
• Maybe he is very hard up for cash and needed to sell it for a few quid more in case he isn't there next week.

Get your money, walk away and don't look back

Also don't listen to everyone who tells you they would sue if they were in your shoes as they never are in them

EDIT: I understand you can sue for breach of contract but hardly worth it

mathepac

Why would you want to deal with someone who sounds to me like a right bloody shyster? Take your money, in cash, and shop elsewhere.

AndyWhite

The problem is that I dont think there was anything at all wrong with the car and I really wanted it. Any car dealer who operates like this should not be allowed work.

bazz26

It is very possible that the dealer got a more attractive deal from someone else. Someone could have bought the car straight with no trade in. The dealer could have found that more lucrative than having to take your old car in part exchange, spend money on preparing it for resale and then trying to sell it on at a profit.

Unfortunately these things happen in life but not every garage is like this. I really don't see you getting much joy at this stage so I would suggest you get your deposit back, draw a line in the sand and move on to another car.

mickdw

You have no case. Nobody can prove the car did not have the faults so in that case, the dealer can only return your deposit. What more is he to do?

You could look out for the new owner if you are in a not so big town (as Im sure he did sell it twice) and just to put the cat among the pigeons, tell them that you had bought that car but couldnt get it because the dealer told you he had to do an engine swap as it waas f*cked. That should send the new owner running back to the dealer putting a bell in his ear!

AndyWhite

If the engine was actually ****ed, I would have walked away and taken my deposit back but he wouldnt let me check. well the thing is, the ad says that a new nct is guaranteed. and I have the ad and a reciept for a deposit so I would have thought that in theory, he would have had to put it through the nct no matter what unless I agreed to let it go?
Not that I would have done that but I would have that that I'd have some case?

Drummerboy08

I don't really get the point of your argument.

There are plenty of cars to choose from - if the dealer doesnt want to sell it to you then just walk on to the next one. YOu don't really have any "case".

AndyWhite

Well my point was that he entered a contract? If I had chosen to walk away after putting a deposit down, I would have forfeit my deposit. hardly fair that he can go with no consequence?

Drummerboy08

AndyWhite wrote: »

Well my point was that he entered a contract? If I had chosen to walk away after putting a deposit down, I would have forfeit my deposit. hardly fair that he can go with no consequence?

You're making yourself sounds like you're just out for a free lunch.

Think about it - if you really pushed and pushed him to sell the car to you even if he doesnt want to, what happens when something goes wrong with the car under warranty? He drags his feet for weeks and weeks.

It does smell funny, but hey, thats the motor trade for you. Chalk it down to experience and walk on.

corktina

you are probably better off out of it....(BTW if a car is burning oil, it will keep burning it until theres none left so definately that was an excuse ...

bryaner

Get your cash back put his windows in later, a deal is a deal..

AndyWhite

corktina wrote: »

you are probably better off out of it....(BTW if a car is burning oil, it will keep burning it until theres none left so definately that was an excuse ...

wouldnt the oil light be on if there was none?

AndyWhite

Thanks for all the replies! Anyway, does anyone know if I can name this dealer so other people are warned?

robtri

if the car wasnt 100% right would u have still bought it ?????

jaffa20

AndyWhite wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies! Anyway, does anyone know if I can name this dealer so other people are warned?

You don't know or have any proof that he did anything wrong so i don't see your reason for wanting to. Just take your money back and leave it at that.

brownej

Hey OP are you now out of pocket in any way. Did you pay your mechanic friend to look at the car. I know I'd be annoyed if the dealer pulled out of a deal because he sold it elsewhere for more. But then again giving him the benefit of the doubt you might have had a lucky escape.

theg81der

Your right Op its not fair. Did you have to pay the machanic for his time? Had you changed your mind or got a better deal you would have been told to go swing for your deposit.

Don`t know if its worth pursuing unfortunetly, he`ll get sympathy with the whole "times are tough" and you can`t blame the guy for trying to get every penny he can (which I don`t buy into actually).

mondeo

Just go and get your deposit back before someone changes their mind....

Anan1

bryaner wrote: »

Get your cash back put his windows in later, a deal is a deal..

Not here, thanks.

AndyWhite

Actually, I did have to pay the mechanic but I had forgotten about that.
And well, I have got proof that he pulled out of the contract and he told me that he sold the car to someone else.

AndyWhite

AndyWhite wrote: »

wouldnt the oil light be on if there was none?

There would be no oil pressure so the oil pressure light would be on, also the engine would be seized on many/most cars if there was no oil in the engine (not saying all as I know if I do some f**ktard will give an example of some Mobil 1 lubed car that ran on no oil bla bla bla). He is obviously bullsh1tting you, happened me before after driving from Cork to Dublin to view a car, did a deal and gave a €500 deposit and agreed to collect it the following week (got a few hundred off the asking price and the guy agreed to replace a ball joint, sort the central locking and there was also a heater dail needed, guy I spoke to on the phone before going up cam along and reckoned the screen price was the rock bottom price but was willing to stand over his work mates deal). They rang me a couple of days prior to collection saying it had been stolen and damaged very very badly. Saw it for sale a 6 months later from the same crowd and it looked spot on with a few thousand more miles on it. Smell of fish was overpowering, such is life, get your deposit back and move on.

Vertakill

It's his (the garages) car and he can choose who he wants to sell it to unless you actually signed an agreement along with giving him the deposit... So I doubt there is much recourse.

But even still, as other people have stated, would you REALLY wanted to do business with someone that'd do something like this with you?

old_aussie

Name and Shame the dealer.

Anan1

old_aussie wrote: »

Name and Shame the dealer.

Please don't OP, you have no proof that the dealer has done anything wrong.

-Chris-

I'd think you have a case to make the dealer's life uncomfortable - calling Joe Duffy, reporting the SIMI/ombudsman, getting solicitor involved etc. - but if I were you I'd just take the deposit back grudgingly.

The dealer was wrong, and is a dick. He's behaved unprofessionally, and it's this kind of sh1te that gives the entire industry a bad name.

If this is the way the dealer operates, you should be glad not to have bought a car from him.
What would have happened if you had a problem with the car? The dealer hardly seems that honourable and you'd be fighting till you were blue in the face.

Carstuck

I see what you mean OP. You did have a legally binding contract with the dealer and he shouldn't have sold it on. However if you get your deposit back, I would just move on as its more trouble than its worth.

AndyWhite

Anan1 wrote: »

Please don't OP, you have no proof that the dealer has done anything wrong.

As I said, I do have proof that he entered a contract with me in the form of the reciept with the car reg, name and his sig on it. If I am still not allowed to name him on this, I wont, but I dont want anyone else to have the same problems as myself.
Anyone who runs a business like this should not be allowed to trade.

I guess I'll just have to take my deposit back so. I'm not going to try Joe Duffy but I might go down the route of reporting him elsewhere.

Thanks again for all your replies.

super_furry

How many people here would be advocating the dealer returning the deposit if the shoe was on the other foot and the buyer changed his mind?

You should at least make things as difficult as possible for him so he thinks twice before pulling this kind of stunt again.

AndyWhite

Worst bit is that since this happened, I've asked a few people about him and this isnt the first time he's done it. I dont think he'll think twice next time either.

djimi

AndyWhite wrote: »

As I said, I do have proof that he entered a contract with me in the form of the reciept with the car reg, name and his sig on it. If I am still not allowed to name him on this, I wont, but I dont want anyone else to have the same problems as myself.
Anyone who runs a business like this should not be allowed to trade.

I guess I'll just have to take my deposit back so. I'm not going to try Joe Duffy but I might go down the route of reporting him elsewhere.

Thanks again for all your replies.

You have proof that he broke the contact but it doesnt sound like you have any proof that the story he told you isnt true. Have you anything concrete to show that the engine wasnt knackered like he claimed it was?

Im not defending him as such, and I agree with you that he probably is pulling a fast one, but unless you can prove it then you would be very wrong to try and ruin his name about it.

If I were you Id take back your deposit, certainly look to get reimbursed for any additional costs involved on your part from the sale (such as the cost of the mechanic to look at the car), but I dont think youre going to get much more joy than that.

AndyWhite

Well my mechanic who looked at the car said there was nothing wrong with that so wouldnt that be proof? And even if I only have proof he broke the contract, he has still done something wrong, so would that not be enough to warn people about?

djimi

AndyWhite wrote: »

Well my mechanic who looked at the car said there was nothing wrong with that so wouldnt that be proof? And even if I only have proof he broke the contract, he has still done something wrong, so would that not be enough to warn people about?

Not really, no. Did your mechanic dismantle the engine to give it a full inspection? How do you know that there wasnt something very wrong that your mechanics inspection wouldnt have seen?

Say the dealer was genuine and pulled out of the deal so that he wasnt selling you a complete lemon; why would that give you the right to soil his name when he was in fact acting with your best interests in mind? You had a deal, he could have sold you the car with the fault in place, but he chose instead not to and save you the hassle.

Im just presenting the other side of the arguement here. Unless you can actually prove what he said is rubbish then you have no right to warn anyone about him.

kildare.17hmr

I agree with djimi, its not a nice situation for ya but you dont know for sure, iv sold cars that people have had mechanics look at and things havent been picked up on, happens very easy, now im honest so if i know something is wrong ill fix it. Point is like was already said, he could be telling the truth and if he is and you name him falsly your in the wrong.

Take your deposit back and find a car somewhere else

hobochris

Best case here is that he returns your deposit and if he is any way decent he reimburses you with the mechanics fee's.

Or you could go to the small claims court for these fee's as money had exchanged hands, binding the contract and the there for any costs incurred due to the contract not being for-filed, the Dealer would be liable for.

It would be a long process though, you'd have to decide yourself is it worth it?

AndyWhite

Well for one, the car wouldnt have passed the nct had it been burning oil so he couldnt have sold it to me like that because the deal was to put it through. I test drove the car twice, and had the engine running for a good while when I was looking at it. There was no smell of burning oil or smoke in the exhaust.
My mechanic said the same thing.
I told the dealer that I wanted to get another opinion from a second mechanic that I know. At first he wouldnt let me. then he said he would ring me back, which he didnt.
I couldnt get through to him after that (on both his phone numbers) untill he'd already shifted the car out of sight.
He hadnt got the right to sell that car without me agreeing after he had entered the contract, so yes, i would have thought that that would give me the right to tell people about it?

fenris

Wasn't the original idea to go out and buy a car rather than win an argument or point of principle?

You are not going to get the original car back, you don't need to put yourself in the way of a dodgy dearer for any future issues with the car.

Get you cash back, tell everybody you know what a wanker the dealer is and move on.

djimi

Ill be honest, the main thing thats coming to mind is "just let it go". Given what you have said and how he acted youre probably not wrong in what you think (despite not having much proof, and the NCT doesnt even really prove much as something could have gone after the car was tested) and its a crap situation, but is it really worth the hassle of starting a personal vendetta against this bloke? Just take your money back, look elsewhere and be happy in the knowledge that you are giving your money to a decent dealer rather than a cowboy.

Lifes too short to waste your time and energy on guys like that. He didnt screw you out of any money, he didnt sell you a lemon and he gave you back your deposit so just walk away.

The Muppet

AndyWhite wrote: »

Well my mechanic who looked at the car said there was nothing wrong with that so wouldnt that be proof? And even if I only have proof he broke the contract, he has still done something wrong, so would that not be enough to warn people about?

Did your mechanic dip the oil to see it's level and condition or check the oil filler cap as part of his test, if not i'd be bringing another mechanic next time if I were you.

As for your issue , just getting your deposit back is not enough if you have out of pocket expenses as you had a legally binding contract.

AndyWhite

I know what you's are saying this is not a personal vendetta. I genuinely want to warn anyone else about this sort of thing!

I know Im not going to be able to get that car now and I'm not going through the effort of suing the guy now from what you have all said but I dont see why I shouldnt be allowed give the name of the dealer.

kildare.17hmr

Andy its already been said, you cant prove he was dishonest, if im being honest i dont believe you found a few other people that this exact situation happend to with the same dealer. it seems to me you just want to name him because your pissed off and not to just warn people as you put it.
Seriously man just take your money back and let it go

AndyWhite

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Andy its already been said, you cant prove he was dishonest, if im being honest i dont believe you found a few other people that this exact situation happend to with the same dealer. it seems to me you just want to name him because your pissed off and not to just warn people as you put it.
Seriously man just take your money back and let it go

I didnt mean the exact same thing but he's had similar run ins. A guy I used to work with worked for him before, which I found out a few days ago. Thats where I got my info from.
As I already said, I'm not trying to name him because Im pissed off. People should know of other people's experiences.

-Chris-

AndyWhite wrote: »

...I dont see why I shouldnt be allowed give the name of the dealer.

Because you've been asked not to by a moderator of this forum.

If you post defamatory information here, it'll be boards.ie who will be getting the solicitor's letters, not you (you're just an anonymous internet user at the moment).

If we could ascertain that all your facts are correct and would stand up in a court of law (i.e. when boards.ie gets sued for defamation), then there'd be no issue with naming and shaming, but that's more hassle or exposure than any of the volunteer mods will be willing to put up with.

Just drop it please.

kildare.17hmr

AndyWhite wrote: »

I didnt mean the exact same thing but he's had similar run ins. A guy I used to work with worked for him before, which I found out a few days ago. Thats where I got my info from.
As I already said, I'm not trying to name him because Im pissed off. People should know of other people's experiences.

I think your missing the point tho andy, he didnt rip you off or sell you a car with problems that he will not stand over, he pulled out of a deal and offered to repay the money you put in, **** buz but it happens everyday in all types of business. go ahead name him if you want but i think it'll just cause trouble for you. let it go

AndyWhite

Fair enough. I'll drop it at that.

busman

AndyWhite wrote: »

Fair enough. I'll drop it at that.

Don't pay attention to the dealer folk here and give up so easy!
If you have a receipt showing the balance to pay I would say that was a contract!

I would ask the dealer to satisfy the contract or to compensate you to get out of it.
I would ask him straight to his face how much more he sold the car for and tell him you want the difference to make up for his wasting of your time!

Try posting on the consumer issues board and maybe you might get some unbiased options.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=580

Drummerboy08

busman wrote: »

Don't pay attention to the dealer folk here and give up so easy!
If you have a receipt showing the balance to pay I would say that was a contract!

I would ask the dealer to satisfy the contract or to compensate you to get out of it.
I would ask him straight to his face how much more he sold the car for and tell him you want the difference to make up for his wasting of your time!

Try posting on the consumer issues board and maybe you might get some unbiased options.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=580

Yeah, sure.

:rolleyes:

Vertakill

busman wrote: »

I would ask him straight to his face how much more he sold the car for and tell him you want the difference to make up for his wasting of your time!

Rofl? Why would the dealer give him the difference?
Don't you think that'd kinda... I dunno... defeat the purpose of this 'alleged' shady practice in the first place?


Some people here are only dying to get into an arguement or prove something... but c'mon for god sake.. it's a car.

I could sort of understand the OP if it was a deposit on a house and the estate agent sold it to someone else for a higher price (which also happens!)... seeing as the house is in a fixed place the OP may have gotten attached to the locality as well as the house itself and so on.

However, when we're talking about a car, and with all due respect, I doubt this car was anything particularly unique... I just can't understand people even entertaining the idea of solicitor's letters. The OP didn't lose out on a monetary level and you could hardly become attached to a car after 2 test drives...

Get over it! It's a pain in the arse alright and I'd expect better behaviour from the dealer if I were in your shoes, but I wouldn't take it any further.
There are plenty more cars out there and you may have unknowingly dodged a huge bullet here in the off chance that there WAS something wrong with the car somewhere down the line and then you had to go back to this 'alleged' shady dealer with a warranty repair that he might not honour.

mickdw

djimi wrote: »

Not really, no. Did your mechanic dismantle the engine to give it a full inspection? How do you know that there wasnt something very wrong that your mechanics inspection wouldnt have seen?

Say the dealer was genuine and pulled out of the deal so that he wasnt selling you a complete lemon; why would that give you the right to soil his name when he was in fact acting with your best interests in mind? You had a deal, he could have sold you the car with the fault in place, but he chose instead not to and save you the hassle.

Im just presenting the other side of the arguement here. Unless you can actually prove what he said is rubbish then you have no right to warn anyone about him.

If you read the earlier posts, you would see that the dealer was coming up with all sorts of crap about it burning oil etc and that there wasnt enough oil in it at time of test drive for it to be smoking. Now a mechanic looked at this for the OP. Do you really think that he wouldnt notice that the engine was that bad AND that it was running with zero oil as must have been the case if the dealer is to be believed

djimi

mickdw wrote: »

If you read the earlier posts, you would see that the dealer was coming up with all sorts of crap about it burning oil etc and that there wasnt enough oil in it at time of test drive for it to be smoking. Now a mechanic looked at this for the OP. Do you really think that he wouldnt notice that the engine was that bad AND that it was running with zero oil as must have been the case if the dealer is to be believed

I said above (if you read the earlier posts) that I agreed with the OP that the dealer probably is dodgy, and by the sounds of it its very likely he was trying to pull a fast one and sold the car to someone else for more money, but unless the OP can actually prove that the dealer was lying to him (and by prove I mean actually get a look at the car and give it a full inspection rather than assuming he is lying based on some bull**** the dealer was spouting) then the OP is leaving themselves on shakey ground if the dealer is genuine and decides to take action for defamation of character based on what the OP might have spread about him and his business.

Anan1

AndyWhite wrote: »

I know what you's are saying this is not a personal vendetta. I genuinely want to warn anyone else about this sort of thing!

I know Im not going to be able to get that car now and I'm not going through the effort of suing the guy now from what you have all said but I dont see why I shouldnt be allowed give the name of the dealer.

The problem here is that a compelling case does not necessarily equal proof. I completely see where you're coming from, but where would we be if Boards kept getting sued?;)