Reporting SW fraud?

LegacyUser

So I've a neighbour who is typical of women living in my area. She gets single mothers allowance but has the boyfriend living with her. They both have cars, she works doing delivery for the local chinese some evenings (80euro per shift, cash in hand). He has a good job etc. She has 3 kids and the oldest kids dad is not the current boyfriend. the oldest kids dad gives her cash for maintenance for him, but his name is not on the kids birthcert, so she doesn't declare it to anyone and social welfare can't find him. They rent the house, she gets rent allowance. The list is endless.

I've been reading another post here about the woman complaining about her childminder, and it got me wondering about this neighbour of mine. I am often tempted to report her. But am I alone in being reluctant to do this??? Am i the only person who thinks it's better not to involve yourself in others peoples lives, just to make the best of your own life?

I was reading that other thread and saw some of the replies about why the girl should report the minder.

And before everyone jumps down my throat, my question is am I alone in feeling slightly reluctant in reporting my neighbour....I am NOT saying i wont report her.
having asked that question, I'm obviously not alone, because everyone knows her business and she hasn't been reported yet!

Fittle

I get where you are coming from OP.

I know people in similar situations to your neighbour - don't quite know as much about them as in your case, but I do know that they are committing fraud by claiming social welfare that they are not entitled to.

Someone once said to me that in Ireland, we're a nation of 'Ah sure, let them get on with it...they're not doing anybody any harm...' type people.

And I guess, in theory, your neighbour isn't doing you any harm DIRECTLY. but she most certainly is harming the whole country! I think that life has become so difficult for us all lately, that we're all looking at our own lives and trying to make them better, without focussing on what's going on around us (well I am, anyway!).

So while I understand what you're saying, if I knew the level of fraud being committed was at the level of your neighbours, I'd be on to welfare immediately!

tinkerbell

Report her. She is stealing money from all of us who have to pay such ridiculously high taxes so our taxes are going towards her. There should be no question about it, that woman is committing fraud.

LegacyUser

Hey, It's easy peasy to report your her and you can do so anonymously and it IS the right thing to do. Call 01 858 1100 (for North Dublin, even if you're not in North Dublin they will take the details and pass them onto the correct section) and give them as much detail as you can. Believe me they will investigate thoroughly.

LighterGuy

There was a thread on here a few weeks ago about a man who was going to report someone he knew because the person was claming social welfare and working at music gigs. However it was apparent that the Poster was doing it out of jealously (as he even admitted) ... he even ended up reporting as he stated.


However, in your situation op, you are not jealous Its clear from your words. You feel relucatant because you dont want to be bad and report this person. From the sounds of it I dont think she has personally done anything against you and your conscience is making you feel like being a p*ick if you did report her.


but... it has to be said tho what she is doing is really taking advantage. But thats nothing new. This has been going on for decades. Many an "unmarried mother" has had the father living with her. Also doing nixers.... alot even have "kids from different daddies" and also getting one of the kids fathers to pay maintainence.

Dare i be so blunt... we're talking about an inner city slag with no ambition to get anything in life (unless its from the social) I know the type op.


As for wheather you should report her?
well you're going to get some moral crusaders on here saying you should. I dunno, I guess I have the philosophy of "dont p*ss in another persons garden... unless you want trouble" ... But at the same time if you let one away with something you might as well let everyone away with it. But.. sad fact of life is she is only but 1 of thousands of people who are doing this.

LegacyUser

'You feel relucatant because you dont want to be bad and report this person. From the sounds of it I dont think she has personally done anything against you and your conscience is making you feel like being a p*ick if you did report her.'

That's it in a nutshell Lighterguy.

She's done nothing wrong on me whatsoever (directly anyhow) and there are days, when I feel like taking the moral highground and reporting her. But I think i would feel like crap if I actually did it. They'd have a pretty tough time of it if she was to live on (genuinely) the amount of money she is supposed to receive with 3kids on social welfare (two hundred and sumting I think)...

Thanks lighterguy - I was just trying to figure out if I was alone feeling like this, because so often people say 'report her!!!' but I wonder would they actually do it themselves?

wasper

unregistered wrote: »

she works doing delivery for the local chinese some evenings (80euro per shift, cash in hand).

Is that per night? I find very hard to believe a Chinese will pay €80.
And I wouldn't report her, live & let live.

LegacyUser

yes, that's per night. Shift starts at 5pm and ends at 1am...she gets 80euro plus tips....

lainey316

unregistered wrote: »

They'd have a pretty tough time of it if she was to live on (genuinely) the amount of money she is supposed to receive with 3kids on social welfare (two hundred and sumting I think)...

Luckily she wouldn't have to, because she'd have her chinese money and the boyfriend's income from his aforementioned good job, plus the maintenance for the eldest. I'm sure that'll come to more than the social.

LegacyUser

I meant, if I reported her - her boyfriend had to move out, she lost her job, had to declare the other dad's maintenance etc. THAT'S what I meant by living on social welfare (genuinely)....

LittleBook

unregistered wrote: »

I meant, if I reported her - her boyfriend had to move out, she lost her job, had to declare the other dad's maintenance etc. THAT'S what I meant by living on social welfare (genuinely)....

Save your empathy for someone who "genuinely" needs social welfare, there are enough of them out there.

These two are both working, they'll be grand.

tinkerbell

unregistered wrote: »

I meant, if I reported her - her boyfriend had to move out, she lost her job, had to declare the other dad's maintenance etc. THAT'S what I meant by living on social welfare (genuinely)....

In fairness - boo-frikkin-hoo. Who gives a crap? This woman is stealing from you, me and every other person in this country who pays tax. No wonder social welfare fraud in this country is so high.

So report her, and stop feeling sorry for her. She is stealing from all of us.

LighterGuy

unregistered wrote: »

...Thanks lighterguy - I was just trying to figure out if I was alone feeling like this, because so often people say 'report her!!!' but I wonder would they actually do it themselves?

And here lies some of the biggest Hypocrisy you will face in the world

The simple answer is your average person will not report people they like or are family members. In fact, A large percentage of people who say "Report!!" would be the same people who would do the same. Like most things in life "it all comes down to what side of the coin your on" ...

To make a good example, its like those dodgy boxes that were giving free NTL up until a year ago. Alot of people had them. Or what about downloading free stuff from the net. Isnt that moralistically wrong too?

But at the end of the day op lets be realistic. People only report when said party has done something against them or out of jealously/envy. But, as long as you can slap a "moralistic view" on it. Its deemed acceptable to do so by many people. Even tho the real reason for reporting was anything but doing the right thing.

So if you reported, half would say "well done" - other half with see you as being petty and jealous.

ebbsy

unregistered wrote: »

yes, that's per night. Shift starts at 5pm and ends at 1am...she gets 80euro plus tips....

What a load of BS that is. Chefs are lucky to get paid that these days. They may get a very small basic plus a small amount per delivery.

tenchi-fan

report her.

Ignore the morale dimension. I'm sure she has a lot of friends who would love to report her but would feel bad about it. This is where someone impartial like yourself comes into it!

Strangers don't know her to report her.
Friends won't report her.
But someone has to.

Here is the link : https://www.welfare.ie/EN/Secure/Pages/ReportSuspectFraud.aspx

senordingdong

Is she brazen or smug about it?

LegacyUser

Op here. I'd say it's more brazen than smug.

She genuinely doesn't see that shes doing anything 'wrong'.

Like 'how am I supposed to live on (two hundred and sumting euro) per week!!!! with three kids. Like what do they want me to DO!!' and 'This is what I HAVE to do to keep mine and my kids heads above water....'

That's the general attitude....

Ickle Magoo

You aren't really asking for advice on a personal issue, OP, your post is more a discussion on ethics so I've moved the thread to humanities...

inmyday

ebbsy wrote: »

What a load of BS that is. Chefs are lucky to get paid that these days. They may get a very small basic plus a small amount per delivery.

alright, relax.... maybe the woman earns €30 for an evening's work(just turning up), and €3 for a delivery, and tips (€2or €3). even with 10 deliveries, it could easily be €80 a night.


back on topic, im not sure exactly what could happen if you report the fraud, would the social servics just stop payments and other benifits? or would they go further and bring her to court? maybe someone could answer this? i really dont know.


also i agree with ligherguy's last comment, if you dislike the person it is an easy decision.

Fittle

Having re-read the OP's comments, I don't think they actually dislike the person in question.

I think it would be easier for them if they DID dislike them.

The issue appears to be (to me) that they hold no ill-will against this particular individual, other than the fact that they are defrauding the state.

The OP appears to be wondering if they can 'live' with themself if they report her.

Personally, I feel that if there is such a huge level of social welfare fraud going on (rent allowance/lone parents allowance/back to school allowance, all the while the partner is living with her earning a good salary by all accounts), that I would report them. But then I also feel like none of us should be judge and jury to others......

looksee

Just because you report them doesn't mean they automatically get their dole stopped. There would have to be an investigation and it would be up to the social whether they did anything.

Truley

unregistered wrote: »

So I've a neighbour who is typical of women living in my area. She gets single mothers allowance but has the boyfriend living with her. They both have cars, she works doing delivery for the local chinese some evenings (80euro per shift, cash in hand). He has a good job etc. She has 3 kids and the oldest kids dad is not the current boyfriend. the oldest kids dad gives her cash for maintenance for him, but his name is not on the kids birthcert, so she doesn't declare it to anyone and social welfare can't find him. They rent the house, she gets rent allowance. The list is endless.

If you don't mind me saying, you seem to know alot about your neighbour's finances. But if you're going to report her, I think you should be careful of having your facts correct. For example how do you know she's not declaring her income and maintainance to social welfare? Are you sure she is getting the full rates for single parent allowance?

While I was on JSA many people presumed I was getting the full whack but I wasn't, I was actually getting around €70 a week. As well as a reduced rate everytime I worked, including cash in hand work.

How do you know ther father is giving her maintainance, and how much he is giving? Do you think he may be in on this 'scam' by not being named on the birth cert? Seems a bit odd to me, but you are both obviously on close terms so why not try talking to her before doing something as drastic as report her to the authorities.

sierra117x

Truley wrote: »

If you don't mind me saying, you seem to know alot about your neighbour's finances. But if you're going to report her, I think you should be careful of having your facts correct. For example how do you know she's not declaring her income and maintainance to social welfare? Are you sure she is getting the full rates for single parent allowance?

While I was on JSA many people presumed I was getting the full whack but I wasn't, I was actually getting around €70 a week. As well as a reduced rate everytime I worked, including cash in hand work.

How do you know ther father is giving her maintainance, and how much he is giving? Do you think he may be in on this 'scam' by not being named on the birth cert? Seems a bit odd to me, but you are both obviously on close terms so why not try talking to her before doing something as drastic as report her to the authorities.

actually no you dont need to have your facts straight . if your suspicous report it and it will be looked into . but do you honestly think that social welfare will just take you at your word and cut her off straight away ?
doest happen that way buddy

Truley

sierra117x wrote: »

but do you honestly think that social welfare will just take you at your word and cut her off straight away ?
doest happen that way buddy

No. And I didn't say that would happen either.

dvpower

sierra117x wrote: »

actually no you dont need to have your facts straight . if your suspicous report it and it will be looked into . but do you honestly think that social welfare will just take you at your word and cut her off straight away ?
doest happen that way buddy

+1

The department will look at the information they receive, compare it with the information they have (from her claim) and carry out an investigation if these differ. They will make decisions based on the results of the investigation, not based on the information they receive from the OP

In my experience, they are more interested in making benefit savings than persuing prosecutions. If they can get her to sign off, they will be more than happy. Cases of people living together are difficult to investigate, because they need to establish both a relationship and a habitual residence. Less so difficult are cases of working and claiming - a statement from the employer or failing that, some observations from a social welfare inspector. The most likely outcome in this type of case is that they would interview her, put the information they have to her, and ask her if she would like to review her claim (i.e. sign off).

I don't think theres much of an ethical consideration here at all (perhaps one around having information about a possible crime and not reporting it to the authorities).

stovelid

unregistered wrote: »

yes, that's per night. Shift starts at 5pm and ends at 1am...she gets 80euro plus tips....

As a matter of interest, how do you know this?

rantyface

stovelid wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how do you know this?

She's her neighbor, people know their neighbors!

OP I think you should report. There are barely enough resources to go around as it is without people taking advantage of the system :mad:

senordingdong

rantyface wrote: »

She's her neighbor, people know their neighbors!

OP I think you should report. There are barely enough resources to go around as it is without people taking advantage of the system :mad:

This type of comment bothers me.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not encouraging fraud or theft....but the idea that reporting fraudsters will suddenly result in more resources for worthwhile ventures is laughable.

Do you honestly think that if all fraudsters were caught, that suddenly the Welfare expenditure would drop?
Do you think there would be truck loads of extra cash suddenly being injected into health or education?

I don't.

I think there would be a little more money for T.D. expense claims though.

stovelid

rantyface wrote: »

She's her neighbor, people know their neighbors!

I know my neighbours too. I don't, however, know the personal details of their wages or working hours though.

My suspicion is that the majority of fraud reporting has a personal motivation and the details here make me suspicious that this is what it is too.

senordingdong

stovelid wrote: »

I know my neighbours too. I don't, however, know the personal details of their wages or working hours though.

My suspicion is that the majority of fraud reporting has a personal motivation and the details here make me suspicious that this is what it is too.

I think the only thing that's personal about it is the jealousy the feel when they think they see someone who they think is getting more than they should.

zeds alive

Report them if you feel it's the right thing to do , but personally I would never grass on someone living so close .

gills2

"So I've a neighbour who is typical of women living in my area"

if this woman is only one of others in your neighbourhood who are doing the same thing, why single her out?

RandolphEsq

She is stealing money from us, I'd report her. Regardless of her family set up she must be reported, it's the right thing to do

Mr. Loverman

If the neighbour was going into the Government's bank dressed as Bertie and fraudulently withdrawing a couple of hundred every week from the Government's bank account, we would be outraged. Because her fraud seems abstract it doesn't seem as bad, but it really is the same thing. She is a fraudster stealing tax money from all of us. She should be reported.

stovelid

I assume we're all similarly galvanized to report neighbours for other tax drains such as being creative with tax returns or not declaring lodgers.

Have to laugh sometimes. Somebody on my (private) estate was complaining to me the other day about the possibility of a number of houses being used for social housing (nevermind that they might actually have jobs and not be 'scroungers') yet he has a lovely car but doesn't pay the service charges ("in protest" at the bad services that are themselves decimated by non-payment of service charges) and therefore happily let neighbours pay for his waste management and other services.

I'm not condoning welfare fraud but sometimes it's easier to go after the speck of the dole scrounger than the log of the cute hoor in this country.

senordingdong

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

If the neighbour was going into the Government's bank dressed as Bertie and fraudulently withdrawing a couple of hundred every week from the Government's bank account, we would be outraged. Because her fraud seems abstract it doesn't seem as bad, but it really is the same thing. She is a fraudster stealing tax money from all of us. She should be reported.

If it really is the same thing, why are we not all queing up to report fat cat politicians and bankers?

And a good point by stovelid, keep in mind that if your sons and daughters are handing up money every week to pay their way, you are supposed to declare it.

Mr. Loverman

senordingdong wrote: »

If it really is the same thing, why are we not all queing up to report fat cat politicians and bankers?

I personally believe it's because 800 years of repression have us terrified of stepping out of line. We will tolerate anything our masters throw at us.

senordingdong

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I personally believe it's because 800 years of repression have us terrified of stepping out of line. We will tolerate anything our masters throw at us.

Rrrrrrright.....even though said oppresion resulted in many uprisings and eventually led to independence.

Mr. Loverman

senordingdong wrote: »

Rrrrrrright.....even though said oppresion resulted in many uprisings and eventually led to independence.

Well by all means explain to me why Irish people are so submissive.

Our Government are clearly stealing from us at the moment yet we do absolutely nothing.

senordingdong

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Well by all means explain to me why Irish people are so submissive.

Our Government are clearly stealing from us at the moment yet we do absolutely nothing.

Because Irish people are too stupid and lazy to do anything about it.

smiles302

I think it's more a playground thing, not wanting to be the annoying little kid who runs to the teacher yelling "I'm telling"

I would report her and anyone else in your area who you think are claiming where they shouldn't be claiming.

fungun

I wouldnt report someone downloading/piracy etc cos it doesnt feel so bad robbing from a company.

I never previously would have said yes to this because Id have been a bit of a 'live and let live' person.

But with the current state of the country and the absolute need to stop scroungers like this who do not need social welfare I currently would report. Not out of any moral reason, but when I see myself paying 5% extra tax or more in a month or two I will get so pissed off seeing them not taking any hit at all. And if I didnt report them then Ill get doubly pissed off when they get their new car or the Caribbean holiday. Paid for by me and thousands of others like me.

senordingdong

Do you know anybody claiming job seekers allowance/benefit who are not actively or rigorously seeking a job?

Elle Collins

LighterGuy wrote: »

Dare i be so blunt... we're talking about an inner city slag with no ambition to get anything in life (unless its from the social) I know the type op.

If you know the type then you'll know they're to be found in cities, towns and villages all over the country - as are the men who get them pregnant in the first place.

Trog

fungun wrote: »

But with the current state of the country and the absolute need to stop scroungers like this who do not need social welfare I currently would report.

The current state of the country is little to do with 'scroungers' on the bottom rung of society. If we stopped all of the social welfare frauds in Ireland, we'd end up saving a few million at most. Sounds like a lot but it's chump change in context. The 'need' is not to stop social welfare frauds, it's to stop the out and out frauds who run this country, and support a clearly flawed political system.

OP- if you think they need the money to get by, don't report. If you reckon they're unnecessarily taking the money, and could easily live without it, do. If you want to report on a pure 'they're doing something wrong' basis, just think about whether or not you would break the law or bend the rules if you were in need.

senordingdong

Couldn't have said it better myself.

dvpower

Trog wrote: »

The current state of the country is little to do with 'scroungers' on the bottom rung of society. If we stopped all of the social welfare frauds in Ireland, we'd end up saving a few million at most. Sounds like a lot but it's chump change in context. The 'need' is not to stop social welfare frauds, it's to stop the out and out frauds who run this country, and support a clearly flawed political system.

Where did you pluck that figure from?

Welfare fraud is estimated by the Minister to be costing us €440m each year.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/the-measures/accounts-to-be-scanned-in-welfare-fraud-crackdown-1973825.html

gills2

dvpower wrote: »

Where did you pluck that figure from?

Welfare fraud is estimated by the Minister to be costing us €440m each year.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/the-measures/accounts-to-be-scanned-in-welfare-fraud-crackdown-1973825.html

quote from linked article:
"But Ms Hanafin's department also revealed last week that it didn't have the legal powers to entirely stop state payments to social-welfare cheats.
Fine Gael's Brian Hayes had submitted questions to Ms Hanafin about why those who cheated the system did not have their social-welfare payments stopped.
Ms Hanafin responded by saying that people who fulfilled the criteria for a social-welfare payment were entitled to receive it, even if they had been convicted of social-welfare fraud.
"Discontinuation of such entitlement where a person had been fraudulently claiming in respect of a previous period would require specific legislative provision," an official wrote."

Trog

dvpower wrote: »

Where did you pluck that figure from?

Welfare fraud is estimated by the Minister to be costing us €440m each year.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/the-measures/accounts-to-be-scanned-in-welfare-fraud-crackdown-1973825.html

I plucked it out of thin air, coz I'm lazy, but thanks for providing a figure which proves my point. 440 million is less than 1/30th of our debt. Considering the time, money and man power required to recoup that, it's chump-change. Now the unnecessary administrative costs of the civil service runs into the billions. And that is the fault of the frauds at the top, like I said.

Also, thank you for another opportunity to say the phrase chump-change. I really do love it.

listermint

Trog wrote: »

I plucked it out of thin air, coz I'm lazy, but thanks for providing a figure which proves my point. 440 million is less than 1/30th of our debt. Considering the time, money and man power required to recoup that, it's chump-change. Now the unnecessary administrative costs of the civil service runs into the billions. And that is the fault of the frauds at the top, like I said.

Also, thank you for another opportunity to say the phrase chump-change. I really do love it.

440 Million is not chump change, your view is extremely flawed. EXTREMELY!!

good attitude though.

Trog

listermint wrote: »

440 Million is not chump change, your view is extremely flawed. EXTREMELY!!

good attitude though.

It's not going to make any kind of serious impact on our current state of affairs, like the poster I originally responded to implied. Especially considering that actually investigating them would cost a large chunk of the 440m anyway, not to mention taking up po-lice time and man power.