theoretical physics, YOU MESSIN?

timsnewbridge

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh anyone else already thinking of changing course? hah soooo hard. what the hell, vladimer.d get out of my life!!!
is tp messin????

Conor108

My guess is that TP is not messing :P

I've a friend doing this, I'll ask her how shes finding it when I see her but she is one of those very smart people so.........

Podge_irl

Starting TP or Maths is almost something of a shock to the system. You'll quite likely have to give it to the end of the year and work quite hard to fully get your head around it, but it gets a good deal easier once you get used to it (then it gets harder again when it starts getting more difficult!)

Tears in Rain

Vlad's the man, I'm loving his lectures

Still, that Maths exam scared me a bit, I didn't expect to have forgotten so much LC Maths...

Fringe

I was talking to one of the JF Maths today at the doughnut reception and he was calling Vlad a wanker. You guys suck. Vlad is great.

Really though, if he's doing quaternions again, you actually don't really need to know most of it. I'm pretty sure he does it for a bit of fun. Linear algebra is the hardest maths module. Wait for Advanced Calculus and especially Analysis. You learn how to add and multiply.

dog_pig

Please do switch course so I can have your spot

PurpleFistMixer

Vlad is the best do not hate on Vlad.

College is not meant to be easy, and TP is certainly no exception to this. If you're expecting it to be a walk in the park then perhaps you are in the wrong course. Giving up immediately is not an attitude which will get you terribly far. Perhaps give it some more time and try not to be daunted by how difficult it appears at first, before you make up your mind.

timsnewbridge

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Vlad is the best do not hate on Vlad.

College is not meant to be easy, and TP is certainly no exception to this. If you're expecting it to be a walk in the park then perhaps you are in the wrong course. Giving up immediately is not an attitude which will get you terribly far. Perhaps give it some more time and try not to be daunted by how difficult it appears at first, before you make up your mind.

i was slightly joking in the thread i am going to make a desision by christmas and have a positive atitude and work hard and all that jazzz..........but the lectures came as quite a shock! i also no its not meant to be easy and a walk in the park but i would at least lke it to be enjoyable and want to come in in the morning :P

timsnewbridge

could i get some serious advice though if i do switch to tr071 to do physics and maths,ive missed the preliminary chem course and have never done geog, biology or chemistry. what do people think?

Raic

Vlad seems like a bit of a hero actually. Give TP another while like you said and maybe it'll get easier. You should trust the posters above who have actual tangible experience with the course as opposed to our few days. This is kind of weird considering you're in the same room as me at the moment... but yeah.

tl;dr Basically... you messin'? :P

just-joe

In my experience (of maths, but anyway) its the same every year but probably gets more boring and terrible each year. Maybe you'll get into it but I and many people I knew in maths didn't like it. At all. And TP is probably worse. so change now before you're still there hating it four years later!

PurpleFistMixer

just-joe wrote: »

In my experience (of maths, but anyway) its the same every year but probably gets more boring and terrible each year. Maybe you'll get into it but I and many people I knew in maths didn't like it. At all. And TP is probably worse. so change now before you're still there hating it four years later!

blagards

Well, a lot of people do transfer out of TP in second and third year (myself included assuming the transfer application goes through), but generally into Maths, which is what you're having a problem with. But seriously, stick with it, you will get the hang of it. I remember in first year the general rule in Lin. Algebra was that you'd understand what was done 2 weeks after it was done, so you'd be grand once exams came around. Not exactly sure how it worked like that, musta just been the amount of time it took to sink in.

But keep at it, and make sure you don't miss too much lectures cos you can fall behind quite quickly

timsnewbridge

blagards wrote: »

Well, a lot of people do transfer out of TP in second and third year (myself included assuming the transfer application goes through), but generally into Maths, which is what you're having a problem with. But seriously, stick with it, you will get the hang of it. I remember in first year the general rule in Lin. Algebra was that you'd understand what was done 2 weeks after it was done, so you'd be grand once exams came around. Not exactly sure how it worked like that, musta just been the amount of time it took to sink in.

But keep at it, and make sure you don't miss too much lectures cos you can fall behind quite quickly

hey man cheers i think i am gonna stick at it love the name btw hah

dog_pig

timsnewbridge wrote: »

hey man cheers i think i am gonna stick at it love the name btw hah

Don't listen to him, drop out!

timsnewbridge

dog_pig wrote: »

Don't listen to him, drop out!

haha sound but alot of people drop apparantly dude so you should just have patience

Fringe

timsnewbridge wrote: »

could i get some serious advice though if i do switch to tr071 to do physics and maths,ive missed the preliminary chem course and have never done geog, biology or chemistry. what do people think?

Just go for Geology. It rocks.

Blerdiii

timsnewbridge wrote: »

could i get some serious advice though if i do switch to tr071 to do physics and maths,ive missed the preliminary chem course and have never done geog, biology or chemistry. what do people think?

im in TR071 and in same boat as you would be i just did math phys an d bio for one semester and geology for next...this probably doesnt help but there are ppl in the same boat!

funkadelica

Oh dear, second/third years please be nice...I know your secret identities :P

Maybe_Memories

I wish I was in TP.
I'm stuck in maths listening to crap about stats and C programming.

How can you hate Vlad?! He's awesome!

Podge_irl

Maybe_Memories wrote: »

I wish I was in TP.
I'm stuck in maths listening to crap about stats and C programming.

How can you hate Vlad?! He's awesome!

I thought the TPs did programming. The course has changed a lot since I did it.

You can still become a good theoretical physicist through the pure maths degree. Potentially a better one than through the actual TP course.

Maybe_Memories

Podge_irl wrote: »

I thought the TPs did programming. The course has changed a lot since I did it.

You can still become a good theoretical physicist through the pure maths degree. Potentially a better one than through the actual TP course.

Hopefully. I'll do all the physics modules and any of the maths one that might be useful for something like String Theory or QFT.
No number theory or any of that ****

dog_pig

Maybe_Memories wrote: »

Hopefully. I'll do all the physics modules and any of the maths one that might be useful for something like String Theory or QFT.
No number theory or any of that ****

Number theory's the best part

Podge_irl

Maybe_Memories wrote: »

Hopefully. I'll do all the physics modules and any of the maths one that might be useful for something like String Theory or QFT.
No number theory or any of that ****

The only useful TP modules are all maths dept ones. In fact the likes of Group Reps are important for TP and aren't covered in the TP course.

Aoibheann

Podge_irl wrote: »

I thought the TPs did programming. The course has changed a lot since I did it.

You can still become a good theoretical physicist through the pure maths degree. Potentially a better one than through the actual TP course.

Not anymore, they cut down a lot in recent years it seems. We now have about 23 hours a week, as opposed to the crazy hours I believe you guys were doing. In first year TP, the maths courses they take are Linear Algebra, Analysis, Mechanics - all of those run for the full year - and Advanced Calculus - a module for the Michaelmas term only. Then they take the full complement of physics lectures still (taking special relativity instead of the "physics of motion" that regular physics students take), but the only programming you get near in first year TP is a supposedly compulsory weekly tutorial (for a few weeks only really) in "Practical Computing", which isn't worth anything. I don't know if you took the stats courses in first year, but we don't do them either. We also don't get to the the introductory group theory module until second year, unlike the pure Maths students.

In second year, we miss out on ODEs; the Lebesgue Integral; Fields, rings and modules (a follow-on from group theory of course); Metric Spaces and a choice between Number Theory and Algebraic Geometry. That's not to mention the many maths courses TPs miss out on in the final two years, obviously! What we do actually get to study are the year-long Geometry, Maths. Physics and Advanced Mechanics, as well as Complex Analysis for the Michaelmas term and Group Theory for the Hilary term.

It's a shame, especially in SFTP because you really do miss out on a lot of useful courses - I've attended a few of the Metric Spaces lectures and I've found them to be helpful for both Geometry and Complex Analysis, and I think a lack of the knowledge of that particular course could make things a fair bit more awkward for the TPs!

And it's reasons like the second half of your post that are making me seriously consider transferring into Maths next year! >_>

dabh

ECTS! The credits must add up to 60 ECTS these days. And moreover they must be quantized in multiples of 5 ECTS. In the past, the Maths Dept could get away with the position that the first year TP load was weightier than the Maths load, but there was nothing that could reasonably be dropped from first year TP. That position is no longer tenable.

There never was room for metric and topological spaces in the SF TP curriculum. Lebesgue Integration and Complex Analysis used to be taught by Prof. Simms when he taught two full-year courses. The ODE course (distinct from Maths Methods) was only part of the TP curriculum for a few years. Abstract algebra (including group theory) used to be a full-year JF course for decades, and linear algebra (except from a Maths Methods viewpoint) did not put in an appearance before the SF year, when it was part of one of Prof. Simms's courses. Some years ago linear algebra went into first year. And basic group theory got dropped, though some of it has now come back into the SF year.

Tears in Rain

Aoibheann wrote: »

Not anymore, they cut down a lot in recent years it seems. We now have about 23 hours a week, as opposed to the crazy hours I believe you guys were doing. In first year TP, the maths courses they take are Linear Algebra, Analysis, Mechanics - all of those run for the full year - and Advanced Calculus - a module for the Michaelmas term only. Then they take the full complement of physics lectures still (taking special relativity instead of the "physics of motion" that regular physics students take), but the only programming you get near in first year TP is a supposedly compulsory weekly tutorial (for a few weeks only really) in "Practical Computing", which isn't worth anything. I don't know if you took the stats courses in first year, but we don't do them either. We also don't get to the the introductory group theory module until second year, unlike the pure Maths students.

In second year, we miss out on ODEs; the Lebesgue Integral; Fields, rings and modules (a follow-on from group theory of course); Metric Spaces and a choice between Number Theory and Algebraic Geometry. That's not to mention the many maths courses TPs miss out on in the final two years, obviously! What we do actually get to study are the year-long Geometry, Maths. Physics and Advanced Mechanics, as well as Complex Analysis for the Michaelmas term and Group Theory for the Hilary term.

It's a shame, especially in SFTP because you really do miss out on a lot of useful courses - I've attended a few of the Metric Spaces lectures and I've found them to be helpful for both Geometry and Complex Analysis, and I think a lack of the knowledge of that particular course could make things a fair bit more awkward for the TPs!

And it's reasons like the second half of your post that are making me seriously consider transferring into Maths next year! >_>

That's bent...so I'm doing way less in Theoretical Physics than I would have been had I done it years ago?

antiselfdual

Tears in Rain wrote: »

That's bent...so I'm doing way less in Theoretical Physics than I would have been had I done it years ago be if I moved to Maths?

blagards

Aoibheann wrote: »

And it's reasons like the second half of your post that are making me seriously consider transferring into Maths next year! >_>

Do it.

Just did it this year and was definitely the right decision, apparently the physics just gets really boring and horrible, but I'm actually enjoying the maths, doing the TP courses cos I'm still interested in that side of it.

dabh

Tears in Rain wrote: »

That's bent...so I'm doing way less in Theoretical Physics than I would have been had I done it years ago?

Are you complaining because you are not now required to take an introductory programming course in C (or FORTRAN)?

Comparing TP a decade ago with the current course, the loss of the programming course, together with the omission of the theory of Lebesgue integration (as previously taught by Prof. Simms) and material concerning 'rings' and 'fields' from abstract algebra, seems to be the only substantial difference in the Freshman programmes. And there was no fourth year Quantum Field Theory course in the B.S. era!

Aoibheann

Tears in Rain wrote: »

That's bent...so I'm doing way less in Theoretical Physics than I would have been had I done it years ago?

Be happy about it - I hear the workload was a killer. It really is a shame that we miss out on a lot of maths though. >_<

blagards wrote: »

Do it.

Just did it this year and was definitely the right decision, apparently the physics just gets really boring and horrible, but I'm actually enjoying the maths, doing the TP courses cos I'm still interested in that side of it.

Ah, so you're pretty much doing exactly what I'll do should I transfer to Maths! What courses are you taking, the TP courses aside - if you don't mind me asking? I've a fair idea of what I want to take, but that'll probably get messed up with clashes so I'm trying to be at least fairly open-minded about a few other courses!

And I'll almost certainly transfer next year - this year is giving physics another shot to see if it improves enough for me to stick with it, otherwise I'll be applying for a transfer as quickly as I can during the summer!

antiselfdual

dabh wrote: »

And there was no fourth year Quantum Field Theory course in the B.S. era!

Before Samson?

Maybe_Memories

Would anyone else rank Timoney as the most boring person in the world?

And does Kovacs ever stay on topic for more than 5 minutes..?

PurpleFistMixer

Regarding programming in TP, in 3rd year atm we're starting to do C++ (as part of Computer Simulations). Anything we did in previous years (that hilariously simple 061 course in JF and a bit of C in computational labs in SF) seems rather insufficient.

Regarding switching to maths, I almost did (the form was filled out, meetings were held, courses were considered) and then didn't, after months of agonising deliberation. Don't knock physics, guys, it's pretty cool too. And you can't do labs at home. (I like labs.)

dabh

antiselfdual wrote: »

Before Samson?

Exactly!

Aoibheann

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Don't knock physics, guys, it's pretty cool too. And you can't do labs at home. (I like labs.)

This is also true - physics is pretty cool. Unfortunately it's just not great for the first year and a half of the course anyway.. ¬_¬ Next semester looks an awful lot better. I just think there's probably a lot more maths I want to do over physics.. (like yourself, I could yet end up changing my mind. I was just going to arrange a meeting with my tutor this summer when I decided to give it another year!) And as regards liking labs, it seems that about half the people who actually transfer to maths are doing it just to avoid labs, which is pretty bad. Labs aren't amazing, but they're totally different from everything else you get to do and the reports are graaaand (contrary to public opinion). Lazy, lazy people need better reasons to transfer! :pac:

antiselfdual

dabh wrote: »

Exactly!

I'd like to think that's how all dates are reckoned in the School of Mathematics.

Anyway, I switched to Maths from TP, I have no regrets.

EyesLeft

Maybe_Memories wrote: »

Hopefully. I'll do all the physics modules and any of the maths one that might be useful for something like String Theory or QFT.
No number theory or any of that ****

How weird to think number theory isn't related to string theory: what about modular functions etc etc.

blagards

Aoibheann wrote: »

Ah, so you're pretty much doing exactly what I'll do should I transfer to Maths! What courses are you taking, the TP courses aside - if you don't mind me asking? I've a fair idea of what I want to take, but that'll probably get messed up with clashes so I'm trying to be at least fairly open-minded about a few other courses!

And I'll almost certainly transfer next year - this year is giving physics another shot to see if it improves enough for me to stick with it, otherwise I'll be applying for a transfer as quickly as I can during the summer!

For the first semester Mathematical Economics, Number Theory and Functional Analysis, only took Functional Analysis cos it was the only thing that didn't clash with the other 5 which I wanted to do.

Podge_irl

EyesLeft wrote: »

How weird to think number theory isn't related to string theory: what about modular functions etc etc.

I don't recall ever coming across number theory in the last few years.

My supervisor is quite interested in it mind you, but it's merely as a side interest for him.

Maybe_Memories

So if I take all the physics modules in the next 4 years, can I qualify to do a postgrad in TP?
There's a 1 year MSc in Imperial College London, and to apply you need a "first class honours degree in physics or equivalent".
Can I apply for this if I do every physics module and studying the TP book in my own time?

EyesLeft

The physics taught in the physics wouldn't often be taught as part of a TP degree, so if you do maths and pick the TP options as much as possible, mechanics, qm, classical fields, statistical physics, methods, you should be well positioned to do TP at graduate level. Knowing a bit more maths, any maths, even number theory, is more important than lots of the physics, if you want to do TP. The advantage of doing the physics courses is that it would prepare you for a more computational or theoretical role in experimental physics.

PurpleFistMixer

You won't get accreditation with the Institute of Physics (UK crowd) if you do maths, as you won't have done the necessary experimental work. However, I believe that the nature of your undergrad isn't the be all and end all when it comes to applying for postgrad stuff, but obviously if you're trying to go into purely experimental physics with a degree in maths, you might have some difficulties. Not to say that it would be impossible, but you'd probably have to be particularly good to be considered over more technically qualified people.

EyesLeft

Does anyone have any idea what the IoP accreditation is for? Has anyone ever heard it mentioned in real life. In my six or seven years in the wild I have never been once glad of my IoP accredited degree!

antiselfdual

Maybe_Memories wrote: »

So if I take all the physics modules in the next 4 years, can I qualify to do a postgrad in TP?
There's a 1 year MSc in Imperial College London, and to apply you need a "first class honours degree in physics or equivalent".
Can I apply for this if I do every physics module and studying the TP book in my own time?

A Mathematics degree in which you took physics courses such as qm, stat phys, qft etc would be the equivalent of a physics degree (I presume you're talking about the Imperial MSc in Quantum Fields and Fundamental Forces because you're mentioning TP and not an MSc in more experimental stuff, in which case Maths might not be the right equivalent...?)

Also IoP, what, why is that important? I don't think anyone even ever said TP was IoP accredited when I was in it. Boy does my useless Maths degree feel even more worthless now though, if only I had more accreditation...

Maybe_Memories

antiselfdual wrote: »

A Mathematics degree in which you took physics courses such as qm, stat phys, qft etc would be the equivalent of a physics degree (I presume you're talking about the Imperial MSc in Quantum Fields and Fundamental Forces because you're mentioning TP and not an MSc in more experimental stuff, in which case Maths might not be the right equivalent...?)

Also IoP, what, why is that important? I don't think anyone even ever said TP was IoP accredited when I was in it. Boy does my useless Maths degree feel even more worthless now though, if only I had more accreditation...

Yeah I'm talking about the Imperial MSc in Quantum Fields and Fundamental Forces.

PurpleFistMixer

They told us IoP accreditation was the reason for TPs doing labs, so I presume we get it. What it's actually good for is another question, but some accreditation is presumably better than none.

parity

Maybe_Memories wrote: »

So if I take all the physics modules in the next 4 years, can I qualify to do a postgrad in TP?
There's a 1 year MSc in Imperial College London, and to apply you need a "first class honours degree in physics or equivalent".
Can I apply for this if I do every physics module and studying the TP book in my own time?

Hi Maybe_Memories, I recently graduated in TP and I'm doing a PhD in Particle Physics in the UK. I can assure you that it absolutely does not matter whether you took introductory C++ in first year or group theory in second year. When you apply for a postgrad, whether it be a Masters or a PhD, what a supervisor is looking for is good grades firstly and then a demonstrable ability to cope with independent research and learning (an internship for example), not whether you have one more 9 week course than the other guy who applied.

Heck, I'm working with computer scientists and experimental physicists who decided to go and do a TP postgrad. They got the positions because the department realised these guys were smart and could pick up everything they needed as they went. I'm better than the CS guy when it comes to QFT but I'm blown away by his C++ skills so we all have things to learn and our respective strengths. I can't emphasise it enough, the course your doing does not matter (within reason of course!).

I'd also add that while courses done through the maths department stood to me (QFT and stat phys for example), there were also invaluable courses in physics, such as high energy physics. Doing a postgrad isn't all about sitting in a room with a paper and pen thinking about the universe anyway! I have to supervise undergrad maths problem solving tutorials and all I can think is "thank you paper 5!". Also so much research in TP these days involves data analysis of computer simulations. Though you don't get much of that anywhere in TP you get the ability to think in the right way about this in Physics labs.

Theres also a tad bit of snobbery in TP in Trinity too. A lot of my classmates (and myself for a while) thought that all theorists across the world were squirreled away in their maths departments giving the fingers derisively to their respective physics departments. In most countries its actually the physics departments that employ TPs and teach courses like QFT and group theory. It's actually a bit of a bizarre set up in Trinity how the course is taught, and it's all political, believe me! Don't fall into the trap of dissing physics in general because you don't like how things run in Trinity.

Pick your course by selecting the modules you like and the work ethic that suits you (labs or no for example). You'll have no real idea at this stage what area of physics/maths interests you and if you find you've missed out on a subject later on then you'll have no problem picking it up at that stage. I can't remember half the stuff I learned in my undergrad but I know I could re-learn it in a heartbeat. It's more important to graduate with the ability to understand physics/maths and solve problems that be able to regurgitate the definition of a homeomorphism or tensor bundle on demand.

Most of all, enjoy your decision