Architect fees for extension

phester28

Hi All, We are just starting the procedure of finding an architect for an extension.

Total are is 55sq meters 2 story. An early estimate of the cost of build is 50-60k for building works ex vat.

The architect fees are 9.9% ex vat of the building costs. However it seems that this excludes the application fees, news paper fees, OS maps planning app fee.

Also this excludes
his mileage =0.65per mile
all other consultants fees
prints A4=0.45 per page
A0 = 5.6 per page
planning appeals
any additional information requested by the planning board.

I mentioned that my turnkey figure was 60k but this already looks like 75 + extras + over runs

There is nothing strange about the construction and have reasonable access (semi d).

No kitchen is included in this price.
Does this seem right for an architect to part manage the tendering stage and sign off on the build? or are these figures pie in the sky

podgee

Pie in the sky in my opinion. With so little work out there, I'd expect that there should be a sizeable number of architects willing to take the job on for a fixed fee. IMO a % of the build cost is best left as a distant memory to the Celtic Tiger years.

P

sinnerboy

It's not pie in the sky . It just about not even covers the time at a rate of €25 / hour

The following is rough idea of the time input for a job that runs well . No "Murphy's Law" affect .
No objections during planning , no major issues with builder or suppliers during the build , all parties present certificates at completion ( RECI cert , gas installers certs etc ) and at defects ( inspection 12 months after works are completed ) no major issues .


Survey House and draw up 15 Hours
Prepare Planning 97.5 Hours
Prepare Tender 112.5 Hours
Site visits+resulting actions 37.5 Hours
Certifications 15 Hours
12 month Defects Inspection 7.5 Hours
Total 285 hours
Rate €25.00
Total €7,125.00

No one gets rich at this lark .

.

sinnerboy

this post is worth a look

DOCARCH

sinnerboy wrote: »

No one gets rich at this lark .

+ 1 to this!

Percentage fees are as valid as any way of charging fees - the bigger and/or more complex the build, the more work there is for the architect. Having said that, usually the bigger the job the percentage falls on a sliding scale.

Years ago when I started working the minimum suggested % for a house extension was 12.5%, during the so called Celtic Tiger years, building costs went through the roof and architects typically dropped their % fees. Now that construction costs have fallen dramatically, architects % fees have not risen. Same amount of work - (a lot) less money!

Just to note that I am not trying to turn this into a sob story.

I have heard recently of a case where an architect having their professional indemnity insurance withdrawn because they were working on a large job at an extremely low fee (something like 1.5%), the insurer found out and felt that they could not be providing an adequate service at that fee level.

Mellor

phester28 wrote: »

prints A4=0.45 per page
A0 = 5.6 per page

This part imo is shocking. does he print himself, or outsource.
I'd ask for the above in PDF and get it printed myself tbh.

Charging 9euro for a 20 page A4 is robbery considering a newsagents will do it for a euro or two.

ellee

Seems expensive to me, know that a friend of ours had an architect (well established, 20y experience) who did detailed drawings, and certifications for a fixed fee of €1200. (Single story to semi d to side and back of hse) Percentage rates are fine if you can get someone to pay them. No reason why the architect cannot quantify the work and give you a fixed cost for that specified work, other professionals are doing it. And the extras do seem high also. Looks to me like an opening quote, maybe you are expected to go back and haggle?

97.5 hours to prepare the planning?
112.5 hours to do the tender?

Are you telling me he will be working on nothing else for weeks on end? And anyway, the architect has clearly made no effort to quantify what is involved and is just looking for that lovely nice percentage fee... surely a client is entitled to some certainty on the costs?

Curious Geroge

ellee wrote: »

97.5 hours to prepare the planning?
112.5 hours to do the tender?

Are you telling me he will be working on nothing else for weeks on end? And anyway, the architect has clearly made no effort to quantify what is involved and is just looking for that lovely nice percentage fee... surely a client is entitled to some certainty on the costs?

+1

sinnerboy

And you guys would know wouldn't you ?

Case in point currently - extension

3 site visits / client meetings @ 3 hours = 9
3 X 8 hours sketching developing brief looking at several options = 24
1 x 8 hours on as built survey

We have 2 options now. Clients love both have to decide . 41 hours on clock now .

Next - consult with planner . Min 4 hours ( I don't travel a la start trek )
If meeting goes well - 4 hours . If scheme has to modified estimate + 4 to 8 hours .

Lets be positive and assume 4 hours taking clock to 45 .

CAD time now + appoint LA panel site assessor to revised sewage treatment + admin stuff ( OS maps , site notice , advert , form filling printing and collation - this stuff does not do itself and is more time consuming than anyone who has not actually done so would believe )

3 X 8 CAD + 1 x 8 Admin = 32 hours

Clock now at 77 .

I concede this falls 20 hours short of my 97.5 original statement . I absolutely insist that the potential for such other hours exists . They can quickly accumulate arising from client indecision , neighbor interference , planner input - you name it .

So want to pay by the hour ? Or fixed fee .

Pay by the hour and all the potential for the clock to run and run is your risk
Pay a fixed fee and the architect will bring in the right design on time . Or you don't pay him .

Which is better ?

.

muffler

sinnerboy wrote: »

admin stuff ( OS maps , site notice , advert , form filling printing and collation - this stuff does not do itself and is more time consuming than anyone who has not actually done so would believe )

Yip, would fully agree with that.

paddy147

phester28 wrote: »

Hi All, We are just starting the procedure of finding an architect for an extension.

Total are is 55sq meters 2 story. An early estimate of the cost of build is 50-60k for building works ex vat.

The architect fees are 9.9% ex vat of the building costs. However it seems that this excludes the application fees, news paper fees, OS maps planning app fee.

Also this excludes
his mileage =0.65per mile
all other consultants fees
prints A4=0.45 per page
A0 = 5.6 per page
planning appeals
any additional information requested by the planning board.

I mentioned that my turnkey figure was 60k but this already looks like 75 + extras + over runs

There is nothing strange about the construction and have reasonable access (semi d).

No kitchen is included in this price.
Does this seem right for an architect to part manage the tendering stage and sign off on the build? or are these figures pie in the sky

Not much of an architect if he wont commit to a price or actually give you a propper/deffinative quote.

Hes just looking for a way to squeeze more money out of you for his time.A bit of chancer by the sounds of it.

My architect/structural engineer did my build,from site plans,to planning applications,to tender to project management and final sign off and certification for a single all in fee.

He gave me his fee/quote at the very begining,and never once strayed away from that fee,and he even did extra work for us,at no extra cost during the build.

And I couldnt have been happier with his total professionalism and his commitment.

who what when

sinnerboy wrote: »

Survey House and draw up 15 Hours
Prepare Planning 97.5 Hours
Prepare Tender 112.5 Hours
Site visits+resulting actions 37.5 Hours
Certifications 15 Hours
12 month Defects Inspection 7.5 Hours
Total 285 hours
Rate €25.00
Total €7,125.00
.

My god i dont believe what im reading! As an architectural technician let me give a realistic estimate of the time involved in a typical house extension.

Survey existing house and draw up- not 15 more like 8-10.

Prepare planning- From start to finish it would take on average 25 hours to prepare a planning application for a dwelling house extension.
And that includes the survey above! Not 97.5 hours! Over 2 weeks?? wtf.

Prepare tender- Can vary drastically depending on design but approx. 30-35 hours. Certainly not 112.5 hours.

Site visits- Again depends on how far away the job is but say for a job thats half an hour away and 6 or 7 site visits then it should be in the region of 18 hours. Not 37.5.

Certifications- About 2-3 hours work. 15 hours??? You spend 2 working days issueing certs on an extension job???

Defects inspect- 3-4 hours, not 7.5.

DOCARCH

Monkeys and peanuts argument again!

No mention of design there who what when? I note you go straight from surevy to planning application?

William72

also looking for some opinions here

we're getting some work done - essentially

• knocking 2 internal walls
• changing aspect of existing sunroom roof
• this will create one space from previous kitchen/dining room/sunroom, so obviously there will be some levelling of floors etc involved

had an architect around to take a look, there is no planning req'd as extension is already in place but architect said his fees would be a "couple of grand anyway". So assuming he means 2k - what do folks think? Pricey or no? Estimate of work from builder is 20k

paddy147

DOCARCH wrote: »

Monkeys and peanuts argument again!

No mention of design there who what when? I note you go straight from surevy to planning application?

Yeah,but some architects take the complete and utter pi55 though and think that they can make easy money and allmost "fleece" people out of extra money.:mad:

sinnerboy

... and there are those who put the time and effort in and simply expect to be paid for it .

sinnerboy

who what when wrote: »

My god i dont believe what im reading! As an architectural technician let me give a realistic estimate of the time involved in a typical house extension.

Survey existing house and draw up- not 15 more like 8-10.

Prepare planning- From start to finish it would take on average 25 hours to prepare a planning application for a dwelling house extension.
And that includes the survey above! Not 97.5 hours! Over 2 weeks?? wtf.

Prepare tender- Can vary drastically depending on design but approx. 30-35 hours. Certainly not 112.5 hours.

Site visits- Again depends on how far away the job is but say for a job thats half an hour away and 6 or 7 site visits then it should be in the region of 18 hours. Not 37.5.

Certifications- About 2-3 hours work. 15 hours??? You spend 2 working days issueing certs on an extension job???

Defects inspect- 3-4 hours, not 7.5.

I see you skipped over this post . I naturally dispute your time estimates .

Beyond that - fingers crossed this thread remains useful .

who what when

DOCARCH wrote: »

Monkeys and peanuts argument again!

No mention of design there who what when? I note you go straight from surevy to planning application?

No absolutely not. Design is obviously the most important factor and one that cant be measured. As regards my post i was simply reasponding the the times in the quotation- none of which mention design time.

But like i say its impossible to give yourself a set time for design. Sometimes you know exactly what youre going to do during the site survey. Other times it can take quiet a bit of drawing and redrawing plans.

As regards the monkeys comment, its something you often get in this business. If you dont charge extortionate amounts then your seen as just the local draughtsman type with no qualifications whatsoever.
The only answer i can give to that is that im still employed at a time when many in this business arent. And producing (in my opinion) a very high standard of work.

who what when

sinnerboy wrote: »

3 site visits / client meetings @ 3 hours = 9
3 X 8 hours sketching developing brief looking at several options = 24
1 x 8 hours on as built survey

Next - consult with planner . Min 4 hours ( I don't travel a la start trek )
If meeting goes well - 4 hours . If scheme has to modified estimate + 4 to 8 hours .

CAD time now + appoint LA panel site assessor to revised sewage treatment + admin stuff ( OS maps , site notice , advert , form filling printing and collation - this stuff does not do itself and is more time consuming than anyone who has not actually done so would believe )

3 X 8 CAD + 1 x 8 Admin = 32 hours
.

No i didnt skip it, just hadnt time to reply properly to it earlier.
I'l give it a shot now though.

3 site meetings/client visits you say. I work it slightly differently here.
I usually have 1 main site visit (approx 3-4 hours). Client meetings are done in my office and vary in number. Sometimes 1, sometimes 4 or 5.
I will however say that 8 or 9 hours would be about right.

24 hours sketching and looking at options?? No way, not for an extension! If i start with a blank canvas first thing in the morning, then by afternoon i'l have about 6 or 7 working options and by the end of the day i'd have decided to run with 2 or 3 of these. Then the following day id get cracking on drawing up a set of plans for each of these.

8 hours on survey? On a factory - yes. On a house 3-4 hours!

4 hours to meet planner? Its certainly not neccessary to meet a planner on every extension job but granted sometimes it is. In those cases im 30 mins from the planning office, 1 hour meeting = 2 hours total.

24 hours cad? More like 12-15!

8 hours for 'OS maps , site notice , advert , form filling printing and collation - this stuff does not do itself and is more time consuming than anyone who has not actually done so would believe'???
God no!!! 3 hours max. And i mean absolute max!
Ok so a previous poster has accused me of being a monkey so i'l say fair enough but even the monkeys in this business have to take care of the paperwork. I mean you can argue that you spend more time on design because its necessary but how on earth can you justify spending an entire working day on OS maps , site notice , advert , form filling printing and collation? Please at least explain this part!

Poor Uncle Tom

who what when wrote: »

Ok so a previous poster has accused me of being a monkey....

Didn't happen....

I think you know that comment was meant in a general term regarding the hours spent on a job and not directed at you personally. Please don't blow this out of proportion, cool head wins the day...

For what it's worth, personally I think the average time line falls between the two figures mentioned, I have had some serious problems with some jobs running over the maximum time stated and I've had some extension jobs put in well below the minimum time stated.

DOCARCH

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Didn't happen....

Yeah. You know what I meant. What I was saying is that people get the level of service they are willing to pay for.

There are no standards in say tender drawings. Two architects or ATs may take the exact same project from planning to tender. One guy might spend 30 hours preparing a tender package - the other may spend 100 hours preparing the tender package. They are both tender packages but you would expect one to be better and more detailed than the other (well it should be anyway!).

What I often say to (prospective) clients is that if you are buying a car - you can call all the dealerships and look for the best price at the end of the day you will get the same car. This principal does not apply to architectural services.

I would be at the high end of fee scales but I put a huge amount of work and effort into my service and people/clients see that this pays off in terms of the end product and importantly good tender prices and cost control on projects.

Even though my fees are high. I am always busy!

sinnerboy

who what when wrote: »

how on earth can you justify spending an entire working day on OS maps , site notice , advert , form filling printing and collation? Please at least explain this part!

It does not comprise a sequential working day as such . But the tasks consume time in fits and starts .

Not always in this exact sequence
E mail OS with google map location . Confirm faxed copy . Receive maps . File invoice . Mark maps redline and name+address stamp . Copy for client and job file . E mail advert . Buy paper . Redline . Copy for client and file . File invoice . Download form . Answer all queries diligently including areas , flooding history , proximity to sites of archeological interest , conservation area etc . Copy for client and file PDF and hard copy print CAD files . Print fold collate . Copy for client and file . Site notice . Laminate . Issue to client usually in person and discuss placement on site to ensure no invalidation . Copy for LA and file . Chase client for LA fee cheque . Copy for client and file . Collate all for LA , client and file .

Tedious . Time consuming . But rarely timed .

.

archtech

sinnerboy wrote: »

It does not comprise a sequential working day as such . But the tasks consume time in fits and starts .

Not always in this exact sequence
E mail OS with google map location . Confirm faxed copy . Receive maps . File invoice . Mark maps redline and name+address stamp . Copy for client and job file . E mail advert . Buy paper . Redline . Copy for client and file . Download form . Answer all queries diligently including areas , flooding history , proximity to sites of archeological interest , conservation area etc . Copy for client and file PDF and hard copy print CAD files . Print fold collate . Copy for client and file . Site notice . Laminate . Issue to client usually in person and discuss placement on site to ensure no invalidation . Copy for LA and file . Chase client for LA fee cheque . Copy for client and file . Collate all for LA , client and file .

Tedious . Time consuming . But rarely timed .

I would agree with sinnerboy in allowing the best part of a date for all of the above. Whether the planning is a large one or a small one, with possibly the exception of folding a smaller number of drawings for an extension, the length of time to fill out a form, site notice etc/word the newspaper notice , mark the os map etc is much the same. Because it is normally spread over a number of days, it is quiet easy to loose track of the actual time involved.

kirving

24 hours on CAD?! I persume that's a full 3D model, yeah?

I do a fair bit of CAD, and there's not a chance a standard house + extension in 2D would take 24 hours.

I do think its difficult though for an architect to justify charging thousands for his ideas (which may well be worth a lot more in the right case), so he has to quantify the cost somewhere.

sinnerboy

Existing floor layouts , all elevations , section , roof plan , site plan including all drainage runs to public drain , or if rural , wells , sewage treatment and percolation areas , levels and/ contours , contiguous elevations containing all information required by P+D regs . Same again for proposals .

It takes 3 days .

archtech

In terms of the overall time involved from a design/planning submission/tender/construction and inspection point of view the average time I would spend would between 150 and 200 hours where a full service is provided. Of course the extent of the works has a big bearing too, a small extension, with little interference with the existing dwelling, will take a short amount of time to that of a major renovation undertaken as part of an extension.

muffler

Lets call a spade a spade here. There is only so much work and level of detail that you can input to any project. If its clocking up dozens upon dozens of hours for a simple domestic extension package then there is something amiss.

Of course different people will put more detail and effort into a job than others but quite frankly Im amazed at some of the figures mentioned in this thread. Im around for long enough to know what's involved but it comes as no surprise either to see how some people can become so self opinionated by basically gloating about their high fees and because they are kept busy then the high fees are justified.

Unfortunately there are plenty of people out there who think that just because they have been charged a huge fee then the guy must be good. You pay for what you get and all that jazz. Just like the monkey comment posted here earlier these are phrases that some people use to justify their existence in the industry.

Brian Cowan earns more that Barak Obama. Using the peanut and monkey analogy does it mean that Obama couldn't even tie Cowan's shoe laces?

I have seen other so called professionals in my neck of the woods charging double the fee that I would have charged for a particular project yet produced plans that I wouldn't have wiped my arse with. And I wasnt the only one to think that as quite a few of their planning applications were invalidated on the spot and some of the plans that did get past that stage were then either refused or an FI sent asking for revised drawings. I would also have had phone calls from the odd builder here and there asking me for clarification of some point or other on these plans as they couldnt get hold of the so called professional who prepared them.

Oh and yes, these guys thought it was okay also to charge an exorbitant fee

sinnerboy

I doubt the OP is any the wiser now looking back over the whole thread .

S/he or anyone else in this position should not select an architect on price alone .

Ask to speak to clients reference's and get a sense of what service - beyond providing drawings - that was brought to the project . Was the architect worth it ?

Poor Uncle Tom

And of course, it is wise to get a quotation first. When clients call to my office and I get the brief I will automatically give them a quotation, that way there are no surprises when it comes time to pay up.....:D

who what when

sinnerboy wrote: »

It does not comprise a sequential working day as such . But the tasks consume time in fits and starts .

Not always in this exact sequence
E mail OS with google map location . Confirm faxed copy . Receive maps . File invoice . Mark maps redline and name+address stamp . Copy for client and job file . E mail advert . Buy paper . Redline . Copy for client and file . File invoice . Download form . Answer all queries diligently including areas , flooding history , proximity to sites of archeological interest , conservation area etc . Copy for client and file PDF and hard copy print CAD files . Print fold collate . Copy for client and file . Site notice . Laminate . Issue to client usually in person and discuss placement on site to ensure no invalidation . Copy for LA and file . Chase client for LA fee cheque . Copy for client and file . Collate all for LA , client and file .

Tedious . Time consuming . But rarely timed .

.

sinnerboy wrote: »

Existing floor layouts , all elevations , section , roof plan , site plan including all drainage runs to public drain , or if rural , wells , sewage treatment and percolation areas , levels and/ contours , contiguous elevations containing all information required by P+D regs . Same again for proposals .

It takes 3 days .

sinnerboy ive often read your posts in the various construction related forums and i have to say your advise is usually first rate.
Accurate in detail, and professional in the extreme. As such i was hesitant to dispute your posts but felt i had to because what you were saying is just so far from what for me is reality.

After my previous two posts it suddenly occured to my that perhaps you include things like models or 3d drawings. (For me these are extras and only done if specifically requested by the client.)
But if that was the case im sure you would have mentioned it.

So i suppose im left to accept that what you say is (for you) true.
Im actually right now thinking of my boss.
He went to college before the age of computers and CAD and id imagine if he was left to take care of a job from start to finish it just might take as long as you say but it really would be pushing it! Although it really should be noted that he's tediously slow and borderline incompetent .

From my own point of view as an architectural technician i just know i wouldnt have a job if i was that inefficient!

paddy147

Id get a 2nd architect to do up an all in price for you,and compare 1 price off the other.

A bit of competition is allways healthy (especially in this day and age).;)

who what when

archtech wrote: »

I would agree with sinnerboy in allowing the best part of a date for all of the above. Whether the planning is a large one or a small one, with possibly the exception of folding a smaller number of drawings for an extension, the length of time to fill out a form, site notice etc/word the newspaper notice , mark the os map etc is much the same. Because it is normally spread over a number of days, it is quiet easy to loose track of the actual time involved.

I respectfully disagree and again state that it does not take a day to perform the tasks mentioned. 3 hours maximum.
site notice 10 minutes
maps 10 minutes
application form 20 minutes
newspaper 20 minutes (most of which is spent having to buy it)
photocoping & printing 1 hour

mobby

William72 wrote: »

also looking for some opinions here

we're getting some work done - essentially

• knocking 2 internal walls
• changing aspect of existing sunroom roof
• this will create one space from previous kitchen/dining room/sunroom, so obviously there will be some levelling of floors etc involved

had an architect around to take a look, there is no planning req'd as extension is already in place but architect said his fees would be a "couple of grand anyway". So assuming he means 2k - what do folks think? Pricey or no? Estimate of work from builder is 20k

In my opinion thats pricey, had a similer job done and paid €1k and it was a handy €1k for the architect i thought for what he did. also wanted to be paid in cash had to make him sign for it in the end, which he was not to happy about.

muffler

A little comment on the word perceived or perception.

I recall doing a job for my cousin a long number of years ago - bit of renovation and a couple of bedrooms being added on to the house. As I was quite friendly with her and our respective families visited each other etc I charged her very little for the work. In fairness I just did the odd hour here and there at random until I had it completed after about 6 or 7 weeks.

I dont recall exactly how much I charged her at the time (it was punts then) but it was probably the equivalent of around €8 - €10/hour in present day rates. This was a nixer btw as I was working for the local council at that time.

Anyhow a few weeks later I heard (through the family grapevine) how she had said that there must have been something wrong with the plans as I didnt charge her much :eek: So much for "family rates"

The point I'm making is that some people perceive the fee charged as being a reflection of the standard of work - the more you charge the more the client thinks its an excellent job. As we all know this is seldom the case.

sinnerboy

who what when wrote: »

Im actually right now thinking of my boss.
He went to college before the age of computers and CAD and id imagine if he was left to take care of a job from start to finish it just might take as long as you say but it really would be pushing it! Although it really should be noted that he's tediously slow and borderline incompetent .

From my own point of view as an architectural technician i just know i wouldnt have a job if i was that inefficient!

Safe to say we are unlikely to see eye to eye here .

And as for your boss . I assume he is the man keeping you in paid employment during this turbulent time . Hardly incompetent .

Mellor

muffler wrote: »

Brian Cowan earns more that Barak Obama. Using the peanut and monkey analogy does it mean that Obama couldn't even tie Cowan's shoe laces?

Forgive the off-topic comment Muffler,
But the above isn't true. The so-called fact used by people to complain about the government and their wages, and it's been flung about so much that it is now assume as gospel.

It's nonsense, the two "earnings" aren't even comparable in the slightest.

Anyway, it always bugs me. Sorry.

paddy147

This is really helping out the OP,isnt it???:rolleyes:

Poor Uncle Tom

As is that comment Paddy.....:rolleyes:

paddy147

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

As is that comment Paddy.....:rolleyes:

Well what the hell are you all babbling on about then when its nothing to do with the OP and his/her post.

WTF has Barack Obama or Brian Cowan got to do with this like????:rolleyes:

Poor Uncle Tom

It's called development of a thread, Paddy. The Opening Post regarding a percentage of the building costs is being expanded upon into an hours per job figure and comparisons of different persons working speeds and the concept of value for money.

Whereas what you are doing could be called Back Seat Modding, Paddy. And guess what, it's against the forum charter, Paddy.

paddy147

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

It's called development of a thread, Paddy. The Opening Post regarding a percentage of the building costs is being expanded upon into an hours per job figure and comparisons of different persons working speeds and the concept of value for money.

Whereas what you are doing could be called Back Seat Modding, Paddy. And guess what, it's against the forum charter, Paddy.

Sorry your royal highness.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

God forbid a lesser mere mortal like me give any advice to the OP,like getting a 2nd architects quoattion as a comparrison or that the 1st architect might be trying to make a load more money out of him/her with his way of pricing up things.

Pardon me for daring to even open my mouth,even though posts about Barack Obama and Brian Cowan have nothing to do with the OPs original post about an architects fees.

Starting to get sick of this high and mighty attitude around here.:(

Poor Uncle Tom

paddy147 wrote: »

Starting to get sick of this high and mighty attitude around here.:(

Time you had a break so...
Have a two week ban to cool off....

muffler

paddy147 wrote: »

Pardon me for daring to even open my mouth

Its just that you dont know when to close it again.