5x5 StrongLifts

jaggiebunnet

hey about to join a new gym and thought it is good time to try something other than 5/3/1 which is ok but I kind of miss multiple squat days even though I know I will regret that thinking!

So what are the opinions on 5x5 - I know some folk do them on here - what do you think? What do you recommend as your starting lifts (80% 1RM?).

Looking to do it for the rest of the year and see how i get on.

jaggiebunnet

If you have been lifting weights for a few years, got good technique and have a strength foundation: start with half your max (better too light than too heavy) and do 3×5 instead of 5×5 (1×5 on Deadlifts once again).

I just saw this on the site so I guess that answers one of my questions...although how do you judge a good strength foundation

Brian?

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

I just saw this on the site so I guess that answers one of my questions...although how do you judge a good strength foundation

One of the many reasons that stronglifts is a load of balls.

dartstothesea

I definitely don't think it's a load of balls.

Brian?

dartstothesea wrote: »

I definitely don't think it's a load of balls.

You're simply misguided

jaggiebunnet

briankeating wrote: »

You're simply misguided

what would be alternative and why is it a load of balls?

Brian?

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

what would be alternative and why is it a load of balls?

The alternatives would be starting strength and bill starr 5x5. Starting strength for a beginner moving on to bill starr 5x5.


It's a load of balls because you start with an empty bar no matter how strong you are. There is a whole pile of accessory work in there as well, which seems a little over the top.

Having said that, you will get stronger and add muscle using it. Its not the best way to do it though. At the same time I will get to work every day if I walk 35 miles, a car gets me there quicker though.

d'Oracle

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

hey about to join a new gym and thought it is good time to try something other than 5/3/1 which is ok but I kind of miss multiple squat days even though I know I will regret that thinking!

So what are the opinions on 5x5 - I know some folk do them on here - what do you think? What do you recommend as your starting lifts (80% 1RM?).

Looking to do it for the rest of the year and see how i get on.

StrongLifts isn't the only 5x5 programme. Its just better marketed.

Also its ostensibly a beginners linear progression.

So you could conceivably do a linear progression of 5 sets of 5 squatting every day, with deadlifts alternating with some other pulling exercise and alternating presses, at 80% of your maxes, leave out the other stuff and call it Jaggiebunnet 5x5
It would be as relevant as Stronglifts.

Sea Sharp

briankeating wrote: »

It's a load of balls because you start with an empty bar no matter how strong you are.

That helps the person ensure that their technique is correct.
For a lot of people there's a difference in what they can squat/dead-lift with and without the correct technique

Brian?

Sea Sharp wrote: »

That helps the person ensure that their technique is correct.
For a lot of people there's a difference in what they can squat/dead-lift with and without the correct technique

That's fine, but it's too arbitrary. You're slowing down your progress by not starting with a % of your 1RM.

podge57

Sea Sharp wrote: »

That helps the person ensure that their technique is correct.
For a lot of people there's a difference in what they can squat/dead-lift with and without the correct technique

There is big difference between having good technique with the bar, and having good technique when you start adding some weight.

There is also no "correct" technique, everyone will squat differently because of their proportions

TommyKnocker

As strong lifts & Starting strength are beginners programs, then the person may not have a 1RM squat or deadlift and I would be of the opinion that somebody new to these lifts should not be jumping in to test their 1 RM with a crap technique as this could lead to them injuring themselves.

Starting with just the bar (20kg, squats) and light weight (Deads) is a sensible approach IMHO. Given that you are adding weight each session (3 sessions each week) then once you have your technique sorted out, you will not be too long getting to challenging weights.


M

dartstothesea

I know people will just say "oh then you weren't doing stronglifts 5x5", but I had the sense not to start with an empty bar and all I can say is I've made pretty consistent progress and strength gains with the program over the last 8 weeks.
Progress that I don't think I was really making beforehand, I should add.

Brian?

dartstothesea wrote: »

I know people will just say "oh then you weren't doing stronglifts 5x5", but I had the sense not to start with an empty bar and all I can say is I've made pretty consistent progress and strength gains with the program over the last 8 weeks.
Progress that I don't think I was really making beforehand, I should add.

So basically, you had the good sense not to do stronglifts .

jaggiebunnet

ok so I am reading up on bill starr 5x5 - I'd imagine I will give it a try - thanks for the posts guys

discombobulate

Just to jump in on this thread. Does doing 5 sets instead of 3 really make much of a difference? I did a bit of research on it a while ago and couldn't find much. Some places saying that 2 working sets were enough.

brianthebard

Yeah it makes a difference, its a 66% increase in volume isn't it?

TommyKnocker

I've done 5x5 and seen decent gains as a 47 yr old guy. Have never done 3x5 so can't compare. My reson for chosing 5x5 was purely because I am a volume whore, and even at the start of 5x5 with light weights it didn't feel hard so I felt like I was wasting my time in the gym.

Now however that I am squatting, deadlifting & benching decent weight (IMO) I sometimes find recovery an issue, especially on weeks where I squat three times and Deadlift twice. So maybe dropping down to 3 sets might be something that could help and might be something to be considered. Might also help keep the progression going longer.


M

d'Oracle

discombobulate wrote: »

Just to jump in on this thread. Does doing 5 sets instead of 3 really make much of a difference? I did a bit of research on it a while ago and couldn't find much. Some places saying that 2 working sets were enough.

10 reps of a difference.
66 percent extra work.

Go with what you want.
Having weighed up the for and against I go with 3 sets.

Brian?

d'Oracle wrote: »

10 reps of a difference.
66 percent extra work.

Go with what you want.
Having weighed up the for and against I go with 3 sets.

I'm going to be awkward and say go for 5x5 ramping sets.

discombobulate

brianthebard wrote: »

Yeah it makes a difference, its a 66% increase in volume isn't it?

Does the volume really matter though or is it what your actually pushing?

I had been doing starting strength before Christmas until I badly damaged my shoulder now only getting back into it in the last month. I've started doing 3 x 5 throwing in dips or pull ups as well instead of 5 x 5. I've found no real difference in how fast lifts are going up etc. between the 2.

d'Oracle

briankeating wrote: »

I'm going to be awkward and say go for 5x5 ramping sets.

Thats a bit complicated..... so do you add weight to each of the 5 ramping sets every session?

Brian?

d'Oracle wrote: »

Thats a bit complicated..... so do you add weight to each of the 5 ramping sets every session?

Yup, well I try to anyway. Add 5kg per set on squat and deadlift and 2.5 on press. If I hit the 5 on the last set, todays 2nd set is my starting weight on the next workout.

brianthebard

discombobulate wrote: »

Does the volume really matter though or is it what your actually pushing?

I had been doing starting strength before Christmas until I badly damaged my shoulder now only getting back into it in the last month. I've started doing 3 x 5 throwing in dips or pull ups as well instead of 5 x 5. I've found no real difference in how fast lifts are going up etc. between the 2.

Yes it will make a difference of 66%....

Look both 5x5 and SS require you to squat two or three times a week and the same with the other lifts, at first recovery will be no problem but later it will take more and more effort to complete each workout. Since there is no rotation of exercises beyond workout A and B there is a high probability that recovery will be compromised.

Or to put it another way;
squat 120kg x5x5x2 = 6000kg volume that week.
squat 120kg x3x5x2 = 3600kg volume that week.

d'Oracle

discombobulate wrote: »

Does the volume really matter though or is it what your actually pushing?

I had been doing starting strength before Christmas until I badly damaged my shoulder now only getting back into it in the last month. I've started doing 3 x 5 throwing in dips or pull ups as well instead of 5 x 5. I've found no real difference in how fast lifts are going up etc. between the 2.

For me it boils down to this. In a recent interview, Rippetoe, (who has many years of coaching beginners on linear progression) was asked "Why 3 sets of 5?"

Rip said: "Cos 2 sets is too little and 4 sets is too much." and then went on to highlight how long he had been coaching it. I see it as good enough for me.
For someone to convince me otherwise they would need to have a lot of experience.

If you find that 5x5 works ok, do it. If you find that when it gets really heavy you are having trouble recovering from the 5x5 drop a set of two.
Or reset or something.

Brian?

d'Oracle wrote: »

For me it boils down to this. In a recent interview, Rippetoe, (who has many years of coaching beginners on linear progression) was asked "Why 3 sets of 5?"

Rip said: "Cos 2 sets is too little and 4 sets is too much." and then went on to highlight how long he had been coaching it. I see it as good enough for me.
For someone to convince me otherwise they would need to have a lot of experience.

If you find that 5x5 works ok, do it. If you find that when it gets really heavy you are having trouble recovering from the 5x5 drop a set of two.
Or reset or something.

I completly agree, its all about finding what works.

This is what works for me, the madcow intermediate on.:

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Bill_Starr_5x5

discombobulate

Cant see your logic at all there mate. For one it'd be 40% difference in what you've actually lifted for the week between 3 and 5.

That percentage difference doesn't equate to what I was wondering which was does the volume make a difference to how fast you go up in weight. For example at the moment i'm squatting 80kg. I'm not going to get to 120kg 40% faster by doing 5 x 5 instead of 3 x 5 surely.

Its probaby one of them unanswerable questions unless you had 2 twins starting off at the same time with the seperate set ranges.

I'm starting to waffle now............

As for the ramping i'd tend to go 5-15kg less for a set before my working sets depending on the lifts. I tend to do more ramping on the deadlifts just because I know there'll only be one proper hard set.

It was Jason Feruggia I think who said the 2 sets but cant remember if that was for beginners or not.

brianthebard

discombobulate wrote: »

Cant see your logic at all there mate. For one it'd be 40% difference in what you've actually lifted for the week between 3 and 5.

That percentage difference doesn't equate to what I was wondering which was does the volume make a difference to how fast you go up in weight. For example at the moment i'm squatting 80kg. I'm not going to get to 120kg 40% faster by doing 5 x 5 instead of 3 x 5 surely.

Its probaby one of them unanswerable questions unless you had 2 twins starting off at the same time with the seperate set ranges.

Its not unanswerable, I answered it, you just don't seem to get it. Yes the volume will make a difference if you can't recover quickly enough, happy?

d'Oracle

discombobulate wrote: »

That percentage difference doesn't equate to what I was wondering which was does the volume make a difference to how fast you go up in weight. For example at the moment i'm squatting 80kg. I'm not going to get to 120kg 40% faster by doing 5 x 5 instead of 3 x 5 surely.

Maybe you will, maybe you wont.

But maybe it will take you a lot longer to get to 140kg, because the higher volume makes it harder to recover. Which in turn makes it harder to get your reps the next day, which in turn makes progress slower.

You will realise all this yourself when it gets heavy.

TommyKnocker

brianthebard wrote: »

Its not unanswerable, I answered it, you just don't seem to get it. Yes the volume will make a difference if you can't recover quickly enough, happy?

+10 This

If you can't recover properly from heavy 5x5 the this will slow down the rate of progression.

It's during rest/recovery periods that the muscles repair and strengthen. Anything you do which hampers recovery will have a knock on effect on progression and you will stall and be forced to reset sooner.


M

Hanley

5x5's grand if you're only training a lift 1-2x per week. Any more and it's probably gonna be too hard to recover from unless you're using a relatively low intensity.

I REALLY like picking a lift you want to focus on and doing 2x5 4x plus per week with moderate weights.

I'm gonna use one of the lads I'm training as an experiment after the CFT. And have him squat, press and deadlift once a week working up to a moderately heavy single, then coming back to 2x3, then 2x5, then 2x8 reducing weight each set. I expect he'll do quite well off it because it'll get him used to handling near max weights, and the additional volume from the work down sets should drive strength increases.

The success or failure of it's gonna be fairly obvious too based off his retest at the December CFT....

discombobulate

Thanks for the replies there lads. Based on them I still can't see any reason to do the 5 sets as i'm pretty much lifting my 5 rep max for sets at the moment each workout.

Probably nearly overthinking things i'm that excited to be back lifting after so long. Just want to get back to where I was and progress from there

Squat deadlift, press and pull up day now.......

jaggiebunnet

Yeah by the looks of things I might go with the 5x5 but only do 3x5 on squats as I have real trouble recovering quickly with squats.

sharky86

Dont mean to be highjacking the tread but what does you do after stronglifts.

I just can not squad anymore! I can no longer add weight to the bar and still reach 5*5. Stalled now and deloaded closed to 4 times (expecting this on Monday) thing is I dont want to change my program because I have a load of gain to still make from a linear program for the rest of my lifts?

Any advise welcome?

d'Oracle

You could drop to 3x5 and continue the programme that way...

I'm not saying this to be smart, it could just be that 5x5 is too much volume for you to continue the linear progression.

Would you try that?

dartstothesea

I don't really understand why 3x5 will allow him to progress somehow when 5x5 won't. Obviously he'll be able to add weight to the bar and lift a higher number in kg but only because he's doing less reps, not because he's stronger.
Is that really a 'progression'? When he gets up to a weight for 3x5 equivalent to what he was lifting for 5x5, what's to stop him from stalling again?

Hanley

dartstothesea wrote: »

I don't really understand why 3x5 will allow him to progress somehow when 5x5 won't. Obviously he'll be able to add weight to the bar and lift a higher number in kg but only because he's doing less reps, not because he's stronger.
Is that really a 'progression'? When he gets up to a weight for 3x5 equivalent to what he was lifting for 5x5, what's to stop him from stalling again?

Is lifting more weight really progression?

dartstothesea

Hanley wrote: »

Is lifting more weight really progression?

Number of reps staying constant and all, I'd call it progression, yeah.

Hanley

dartstothesea wrote: »

Number of reps staying constant and all, I'd call it progression, yeah.

So is your definition of strength "the ability to do more weight at a constant level of volume"?

d'Oracle

dartstothesea wrote: »

I don't really understand why 3x5 will allow him to progress somehow when 5x5 won't. Obviously he'll be able to add weight to the bar and lift a higher number in kg but only because he's doing less reps, not because he's stronger.
Is that really a 'progression'? When he gets up to a weight for 3x5 equivalent to what he was lifting for 5x5, what's to stop him from stalling again?

Look I'm not being smart here.
More weight is stronger.

He is still doing sets of 5. he is just doing heavier sets of 5 for less sets.
The linear progression is about adding weight.

Its not about doing more reps.
I could knock out 5x5 at my last 3x5 weight. But it would effect my ability to squat that weight + increment two days later.

Here is an idea. You do 5x5 and another guy does 5x5.
You both stall at 100kg. He drops to 3x5 you keep going.

He will then move on to 105kg while you work on 100kg.
He then gets to 130kgx3x5 when you are doing 115kgx5x5

Who do you think has the higher 1rm?

dartstothesea

Hanley wrote: »

So is your definition of strength "the ability to do more weight at a constant level of volume"?

I'm not trying to define strength or anything like, just didn't understand why 3x5 would let you progress further, and it didn't seem that like was being compared with like.

If that scenario happened where one guy got to 130kg with 3x5 and another to 115kg with 5x5, if the 3x5 guy could at that stage, if he wanted, put more than 115 on his back and do 5x5 with it, then we're comparing like with like and of course he's made a bigger progression than the guy who only got to 115.
Or vice versa if the guy who stuck with 5x5 was able to put more than 130 on and do 3x5, he'd clearly have progressed further.

Or like D'Oracle said, have them both do a 1RM and see who's able for more. This may seem like / be a stupid question but would the person with the higher 1RM definitely be stronger at 3x5 and 5x5 volumes?

sharky86

d'Oracle wrote: »

You could drop to 3x5 and continue the programme that way...

I'm not saying this to be smart, it could just be that 5x5 is too much volume for you to continue the linear progression.

Would you try that?

Worth giving it a shot I think. I can definately knock out more weight doing 3*5, I'm only caving in my final set around the 2 or 3 rep mark. I don't think it is possible for to eat anymore!! My food bill wont allow it!!

d'Oracle wrote: »

Look I'm not being smart here.
More weight is stronger.

He is still doing sets of 5. he is just doing heavier sets of 5 for less sets.
The linear progression is about adding weight.

Its not about doing more reps.
I could knock out 5x5 at my last 3x5 weight. But it would effect my ability to squat that weight + increment two days later.

Here is an idea. You do 5x5 and another guy does 5x5.
You both stall at 100kg. He drops to 3x5 you keep going.

He will then move on to 105kg while you work on 100kg.
He then gets to 130kgx3x5 when you are doing 115kgx5x5

Who do you think has the higher 1rm?

Is it strange that I actually doing know the answer to that?

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

Who do you think has the higher 1rm?

The guy who's not sitting on the internet worrying about whether 5 sets are better than 3?!

d'Oracle

Hanley wrote: »

The guy who's not sitting on the internet worrying about whether 5 sets are better than 3?!

Good point, well made.

d'Oracle

dartstothesea wrote: »

I'm not trying to define strength or anything like, just didn't understand why 3x5 would let you progress further, and it didn't seem that like was being compared with like.

If that scenario happened where one guy got to 130kg with 3x5 and another to 115kg with 5x5, if the 3x5 guy could at that stage, if he wanted, put more than 115 on his back and do 5x5 with it, then we're comparing like with like and of course he's made a bigger progression than the guy who only got to 115.
Or vice versa if the guy who stuck with 5x5 was able to put more than 130 on and do 3x5, he'd clearly have progressed further.

Or like D'Oracle said, have them both do a 1RM and see who's able for more. This may seem like / be a stupid question but would the person with the higher 1RM definitely be stronger at 3x5 and 5x5 volumes?

There is no Stronger at 3x5 or 5x5 volumes.
There is only stronger.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Personally I've done both, and I found Starting Strength far, far more enjoyable. I did make gains at StrongLifts, but I didn't enjoy it and I like to enjoy my gymwork.

For me, I think the ab work and the extra volume in StrongLifts in unnecessary... Starting Srength just strips away the crap and focusses on all compounds, and nothing but. Can't explain why but it also gives way more of a buzz than StrongLifts. Girlfriend did both too, and she has the same opinion.

dartstothesea

d'Oracle wrote: »

There is no Stronger at 3x5 or 5x5 volumes.
There is only stronger.

Ha, fair enough. I'm going to take that to mean the 1RM is the be all, end all and means being stronger able to lift more at any other volume.