A question to all Cowen critics here

Johnny Murphy FF

Should we reinstate Bertie as leader of FF and of the country. If we are to be honest with ourselves, Cowen has been blamed for too much and it is seems is crackign under the weight of pressure.

Just thinking back, and I admit it I did vote for Bertie for these reasons

(1) prosperity
(2) Northern Troubles sorted/ GFA
(3) Improving standard of life.

So its up for debate, if not Cowen is it time to bring Ahern back to FF and give the country a second chance?

Revolution9

Johnny Murphy FF wrote: »

Should we reinstate Bertie as leader of FF and of the country. If we are to be honest with ourselves, Cowen has been blamed for too much and it is seems is crackign under the weight of pressure.

Just thinking back, and I admit it I did vote for Bertie for these reasons

(1) prosperity
(2) Northern Troubles sorted/ GFA
(3) Improving standard of life.

So its up for debate, if not Cowen is it time to bring Ahern back to FF and give the country a second chance?

Ahern was not the sole factor behind the prosperity brought by the Celtic Tiger, like your post seems to suggest. The boom would've happened with or without his input. Infact, it would've lasted longer if not for his criminal party culture of brown envelopes and golden handshakes.
The man is a fraud and should be jailed, not re-elected.

FreudianSlippers

Get rid of Cowen ASAP, but why bring back Bertie? Jesus, it's backwards thinking like this that makes all the parties in this country equally shíte.

super_furry

How about we just get rid of Fianna Fail - the people that have steered the country into the mess it's in?

FreudianSlippers

super_furry wrote: »

How about we just get rid of Fianna Fail - the people that have steered the country into the mess it's in?

Oh yeah, because it was just Fianna Fáil that did this. Come on :rolleyes:

Cool Mo D

The only thing that Cowen has going for him is that at least he isn't Bertie Ahern - the man who is probably is the most culpable individual in the country for the mess we're now in.

Johnny Murphy FF

OisinT wrote: »

Oh yeah, because it was just Fianna Fáil that did this. Come on :rolleyes:

The other parties are angels of course :rolleyes:

Drummerboy08

Find me a person who represents the general public and actually cares about what happens to this country and I will vote him in, whether he is a member of Fianna Fail/Fine Gael/Labour/etc.

Find someone who seems to have a bigger interest in his/her bank account, pension and entitlements and we ain't getting out of this hole anytime soon.

Bertie certainly doesnt deserve a second chance though.

FactSeeker

The Celtic Tiger was a ponzi scheme.

Do people still not understand that ?

southsiderosie

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Find me a person who represents the general public and actually cares about what happens to this country and I will vote him in, whether he is a member of Fianna Fail/Fine Gael/Labour/etc.

Find someone who seems to have a bigger interest in his/her bank account, pension and entitlements and we ain't getting out of this hole anytime soon.

Bertie certainly doesnt deserve a second chance though.

Would someone from any of those parties put the interests of the country above the interest of the party?

We KNOW they won't within FF. But I have my doubts about the other two.

super_furry

OisinT wrote: »

Oh yeah, because it was just Fianna Fáil that did this. Come on :rolleyes:

Well which other political parties are responsible for the current state the country is in?

Traditional

where is BIFFO & CHIPS to day , hiding in china , the size of him , built like a brick house , sure he is the typical irish bacon & cabbage man , slurp slurp .

Wicklowrider

Johnny Murphy FF wrote: »

Should we reinstate Bertie as leader of FF and of the country. If we are to be honest with ourselves, Cowen has been blamed for too much and it is seems is crackign under the weight of pressure.

Just thinking back, and I admit it I did vote for Bertie for these reasons

(1) prosperity
(2) Northern Troubles sorted/ GFA
(3) Improving standard of life.

So its up for debate, if not Cowen is it time to bring Ahern back to FF and give the country a second chance?

On the off chance this isn't trolling:
How would you get him back? He ran like the rat he is at the 1st signs of trouble.Do you seriouly think that he'd face up to what he caused? Also, do you really believe he had anything to do with peace in North? Do you think anyone who held weapons gave a flying so & so about Bertie (or FF, or anyone in the South or England for that matter). If you do believe that even one paramilitary laid aside a weapon because of Bertie you are incredibly naive.

FreudianSlippers

super_furry wrote: »

Well which other political parties are responsible for the current state the country is in?

Fine Gael and Labour actually.

So many people posting crying about how the Celtic Tiger was a ponzi scheme etc. when they don't remember (obviously) that the Rainbow Coalition was in power until 1997.

You're seriously kidding yourself if you think that they weren't doing the same garbage as the FF government that followed and that John Bruton wasn't JUST as bad as Bertie Ahern.

Take off your family blinders that makes you so pro whatever party you are blindly following and wake up: We need all new parties in this country... they're all crooks at the moment

Drummerboy08

southsiderosie wrote: »

Would someone from any of those parties put the interests of the country above the interest of the party?

We KNOW they won't within FF. But I have my doubts about the other two.

Agreed.

I'm fairly sure Kenny is of the same ilk, and Gormley hasnt a hope.

Gilmore could make a goof job of it, its just a shame he hasnt got much of a party behind him to do it.

FreudianSlippers

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Gilmore could make a goof job of it, its just a shame he hasnt got much of a party behind him to do it.

Freudian slip? :P

FactSeeker

OisinT wrote: »

Fine Gael and Labour actually.

So many people posting crying about how the Celtic Tiger was a ponzi scheme etc. when they don't remember (obviously) that the Rainbow Coalition was in power until 1997.

You're seriously kidding yourself if you think that they weren't doing the same garbage as the FF government that followed and that John Bruton wasn't JUST as bad as Bertie Ahern.

Take off your family blinders that makes you so pro whatever party you are blindly following and wake up: We need all new parties in this country... they're all crooks at the moment

The growth from 94-97 was sustainable and real.

Edit: Also, blaming parties that were last in power 13 years ago would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

starbelgrade

OisinT wrote: »

Fine Gael and Labour actually.

So many people posting crying about how the Celtic Tiger was a ponzi scheme etc. when they don't remember (obviously) that the Rainbow Coalition was in power until 1997.

You're seriously kidding yourself if you think that they weren't doing the same garbage as the FF government that followed and that John Bruton wasn't JUST as bad as Bertie Ahern.

Take off your family blinders that makes you so pro whatever party you are blindly following and wake up: We need all new parties in this country... they're all crooks at the moment

As far as I know, no current or previous members of Labour or the Green Party have been involved in corruption allegations, scandals, tribunals or have ever served time in prison.

Unlike the long list of Fianna Fail members & the shorter list of Fianna Gael ones.

Callan57

Listening to Vincent Browne's Monday night prog on playback & Vincent again said 'whatever Cowan is he's not a moron .. he's very bright'. I'm well sick of hearing this on Pat Kenny, Matt Cooper etc etc

Will someone please, please give me an example to justify this assessment of him as bright?

Obviously Seanie & Co didn't think he was particularly 'bright' and he proved them right! Or is it just that because he has a legal qualification ergo he is assumed to be is 'very bright'?

Vinegar Hill

A proper investigation needs to be done into the entire bank bailout and the reasons behind it. The investigation should be by an independent commission and not affiliated with the government. The actions of Cowen and the government need to be part of this investigation.

Then files need to be sent to the DPP if appropriate.

FreudianSlippers

FactSeeker wrote: »

The growth from 94-97 was sustainable and real.

Edit: Also, blaming parties that were last in power 13 years ago would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

The annual average rate of growth during that period was 8.7%. That is abnormally high for any country, especially during that period of time.

I'm no fan of FF, but let's be honest the Celtic Tiger was born under Bruton in 94, that's a fact. If you want to blame the Celtic Tiger then you have to blame the Rainbow Coalition too. That started 13 years ago.

The problem was not the recession, it was worldwide and we couldn't avoid it. The problem is the reaction to the recession and all of the parties have had their thumbs up their collective arses.

starbelgrade wrote: »

As far as I know, no current or previous members of Labour or the Green Party have been involved in corruption allegations, scandals, tribunals or have ever served time in prison.

Unlike the long list of Fianna Fail members & the shorter list of Fianna Gael ones.

I'll give you that Labour and Greens haven't been in too many scandals, except Dick Spring in the 90s.

But, they're not exactly the best parties as far as policy goes.

starbelgrade

OisinT wrote: »

I'll give you that Labour and Greens haven't been in too many scandals, except Dick Spring in the 90s.

But, they're not exactly the best parties as far as policy goes.

That may well be true, but it doesn't make them crooks.

FreudianSlippers

starbelgrade wrote: »

That may well be true, but it doesn't make them crooks.

Point taken. I should have said "they're all either crooks or incompetent"

dan_d

Well Bertie thinks he left everything in perfect order, and there were no problems at all.

Maybe if we bring him back, we can all live in lah-lah land with him???

starbelgrade

OisinT wrote: »

Point taken. I should have said "they're all either crooks or incompetent"

Now, that - I cannot dispute.

bmaxi

I wouldn't give a fiddler's if Kim Jung Il was leader of FF (and sometimes it seems like he is) so long as they fcuk off and leave us alone.

OisinT, I don't know how you can compare the growth in the 90's based on manufacturing and hi-tech industry to the growth that happened in the new millennium under FF which involved people taking out massive loans to buy massively overpriced property from each other - which was fueled by government policy and propaganda, tax breaks etc

I honestly don't know where your comparison is coming from. Can you explain?



Oh and on topic - Bertie Ahern is a CROOK and it's jail he should be in, rather than the taoiseach's office.

FreudianSlippers

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

OisinT, I don't know how you can compare the growth in the 90's based on manufacturing and hi-tech industry to the growth that happened in the new millennium under FF which involved people taking out massive loans to buy massively overpriced property from each other - which was fueled by government policy and propaganda, tax breaks etc

I honestly don't know where your comparison is coming from. Can you explain?



Oh and on topic - Bertie Ahern is a CROOK and it's jail he should be in, rather than the taoiseach's office.

How do you think that growth in manufacturing and hi-tech happened? They just magic'd money out of nothing to draw in these companies?

It's not necessarily our government's fault that they (we) followed standard international practice of living off of borrowed money. It backfired because of greed, not even necessarily greed in this country. The US sparked this recession and the house of cards fell. Let's just accept that, deal with it and move on.

Liam Byrne

Johnny Murphy FF wrote: »

Should we reinstate Bertie as leader of FF and of the country.

Absolutely not. Ahern lies through his teeth even in current interviews about the crisis, once second saying that he "was never warned" and the next having to apologise for telling those who warned him that he can't understand why they don't commit suicide.

Johnny Murphy FF wrote: »

If we are to be honest with ourselves, Cowen has been blamed for too much and it is seems is crackign under the weight of pressure.

If we were to be truly honest, then Cowen has been blamed too little and still hasn't taken responsibility for the decisions that he made as Minister for Finance.

Johnny Murphy FF wrote: »

Just thinking back, and I admit it I did vote for Bertie for these reasons

(1) prosperity
(2) Northern Troubles sorted/ GFA
(3) Improving standard of life.

You can vote for him based on whatever you like, but of those 3 things there's only one that I would remotely associate with Ahern, and that's the part that he played in #2 (along with others).

Johnny Murphy FF wrote: »

So its up for debate, if not Cowen is it time to bring Ahern back to FF and give the country a second chance?

It's certainly not up for debate, because bad and all as Cowen is, he's nowhere near as bad as Ahern.

OisinT

OisinT wrote: »

How do you think that growth in manufacturing and hi-tech happened? They just magic'd money out of nothing to draw in these companies?

It's not necessarily our government's fault that they (we) followed standard international practice of living off of borrowed money. It backfired because of greed, not even necessarily greed in this country. The US sparked this recession and the house of cards fell. Let's just accept that, deal with it and move on.

I don't understand the part in bold. What do you mean? They drew in the companies by making Ireland an attractive place to invest. What has that got to do with a government running a ponzi scheme based on selling houses? I don't see the comparison.

FreudianSlippers

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I don't understand the part in bold. What do you mean? They drew in the companies by making Ireland an attractive place to invest.

...by tax breaks and borrowing to invest in infrastructure.

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

What has that got to do with a government running a ponzi scheme based on selling houses? I don't see the comparison.

:rolleyes: