Roads that could be upgraded quickly to 2+2

nordydan

With the country not awash with money, I was thinking in my head of a list of roads that could be upgraded to 2+2 with the minimal of time and resources. The candidates that stick in my head are:

N2 Carrickmacross Bypass

N2 Castleblayney Bypass

N5 Charlestown Bypass

N3 Cavan Bypass

N4 Boyle Bypass

N15 Bundoran Bypass (not sure about bridge)

N15 Donegal Bypass

N33 Link

N25 Youghal Bypass

N25 Kilmacthomas Bypass


Would that be the complete list, or are there a few missing? I have excluded the likes of the N20 Croom Bypass which are targeted for motorway upgrade

Mc Love

N21 between Abbeyfeale and Castleisland could easily be upgraded 2+2

veryangryman

N5 Charlestown bypass
N52 Tullamore-Tyrellspass for the most part

munchkin_utd

theres newer sections of the N3 between Cavan Town and Kells By-Bass that are truely gigantic lumps of roads with high quality hard shoulder the whole way, BUT you wont get overtaking if stuck behind someone as it's quite busy in both directions during the day.

A 2+2 might be pushing it if you have to deal with numerous entrances/ side roads but a 2+1 (and not necessarily with a central barrier) could definitely be put in some sections to get things flowing.

The N17 Knock/ Claremorris By pass scheme is another beast of a road that may as well have been built as a hard shoulder-less goat track for all the use it is for overtaking if you have a lot of oncoming traffic.
There a 2+1 definitely would be possible if not even a 2+2 as it is really a road that is built to a high standard with grade separated junctions.

yermanoffthetv

N85 Ennis distributer road(or whatever its called ), no real need to upgrade it at the moment tho.

marmurr1916

A fair bit of the N25 between Wexford and New Ross could be upgraded.

L1011

The main bridge on the N15 Bundoran/Ballyshannon BP already has 4 lanes on it IIRC - two Donegal bound as the N3 joins as a lane and two Dublin bound as the N3 is a seperate lane at that stage. So its not a constraining factor.

Any WS2 scheme that was built offline is a goer. The N5 between Longford and Strokestown for instance.

Chris_5339762

Youghal bypass has at least one bridge that is too narrow for 2+2.

murphaph

N30 Davidstown/Clonroche section (new build with overpasses etc. but built as WS2).

Tech3

Some more:

N21 - Tralee to Ballycarthy

N21 - Ballycarty to Castleisland

N21 - Castleisland to R576 junction(County Border)

N17 - Knock/Claremorris bypass (rather they left it as is)

N15 - Ballyshannon/Bundoran bypass

N15: Donegal bypass

N17: Collooney - R293 Junction

celticbest

The R132 from the Pinnock Hill R/A to the Coachmans R/A, this would complete the 2+2 bypass of Swords.

They could also replace the Traffic lights at Airside/Broimhe with a R/A.

furtzy

nordydan wrote: »

With the country not awash with money, I was thinking in my head of a list of roads that could be upgraded to 2+2 with the minimal of time and resources. The candidates that stick in my head are:

N2 Carrickmacross Bypass

N2 Castleblayney Bypass

N5 Charlestown Bypass

N3 Cavan Bypass

N4 Boyle Bypass

N15 Bundoran Bypass (not sure about bridge)

N15 Donegal Bypass

N33 Link

N25 Youghal Bypass

N25 Kilmacthomas Bypass


Would that be the complete list, or are there a few missing? I have excluded the likes of the N20 Croom Bypass which are targeted for motorway upgrade

Hopefully they will do that to the N2 Castleblaney bypass. Terrible and dangerous design. The exits off this road are on the single lane bits....madness. There is going to be a major accident on that road soon

nordydan

Mc Love wrote: »

N21 between Abbeyfeale and Castleisland could easily be upgraded 2+2

tech2 wrote: »

Some more:
N21 - Tralee to Ballycarthy
N21 - Ballycarty to Castleisland
N21 - Castleisland to R576 junction(County Border)...

So basically the entirety of the N21 in Kerry? I would think that Tralee to the far side of Castleisland at least would be doable with perhaps an intermediate roundabout between the N22 junction and Castleisland for local movements. I wasn't so sure about the road NE of Castleisland

veryangryman wrote: »

....N52 Tullamore-Tyrellspass for the most part

There is a plan to upgrade the section between Tullamore and the M6 to 2+2. If there is to be a serious attempt at a Tulamore/Athlone/Mullingar gateway then the section from Tyrellspass to Mullingar should also be 2+2

marmurr1916 wrote: »

A fair bit of the N25 between Wexford and New Ross could be upgraded.

I thought there were a lot of private accesses on this stretch

MYOB wrote: »

The main bridge on the N15 Bundoran/Ballyshannon BP already has 4 lanes on it IIRC - two Donegal bound as the N3 joins as a lane and two Dublin bound as the N3 is a seperate lane at that stage. So its not a constraining factor.

My mistake, was under the impression there were only 3 lanes here (1 S/B)

MYOB wrote: »

Any WS2 scheme that was built offline is a goer. The N5 between Longford and Strokestown for instance.

Yeah I was thinking of WS2 offline schemes in priniciple

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Youghal bypass has at least one bridge that is too narrow for 2+2.

This one?

murphaph wrote: »

N30 Davidstown/Clonroche section (new build with overpasses etc. but built as WS2).

I am surprised the N30 Enniscorthy Bypass is not 2+2 to match the N80 standard

munchkin_utd wrote: »

The N17 Knock/ Claremorris By pass scheme is another beast of a road that may as well have been built as a hard shoulder-less goat track for all the use it is for overtaking if you have a lot of oncoming traffic.
There a 2+1 definitely would be possible if not even a 2+2 as it is really a road that is built to a high standard with grade separated junctions.

tech2 wrote: »

Some more:
N17 - Knock/Claremorris bypass (rather they left it as is)...

Why would you prefer S2 to 2+2?

tech2 wrote: »

N17: Collooney - R293 Junction

Agree with this one

celticbest wrote: »

The R132 from the Pinnock Hill R/A to the Coachmans R/A, this would complete the 2+2 bypass of Swords.
They could also replace the Traffic lights at Airside/Broimhe with a R/A.

I thought this was planned, but can't find a link

furtzy wrote: »

Hopefully they will do that to the N2 Castleblaney bypass. Terrible and dangerous design. The exits off this road are on the single lane bits....madness. There is going to be a major accident on that road soon

Agreed the 2+1 section is terrible

munchkin_utd wrote: »

theres newer sections of the N3 between Cavan Town and Kells By-Bass that are truely gigantic lumps of roads with high quality hard shoulder the whole way, BUT you wont get overtaking if stuck behind someone as it's quite busy in both directions during the day.

A 2+2 might be pushing it if you have to deal with numerous entrances/ side roads but a 2+1 (and not necessarily with a central barrier) could definitely be put in some sections to get things flowing...

Yes I was wondering whether the NRA should push for a 2+2 package for some of the schemes listed in the N2/N3/N33? They are also close geographically and through the economies of scale cost could be reduced (i.e. basically the same job is being done on all the listed N2/N3/N33 schemes)

Harps

N13 Letterkenny - Derry, already DC as far as the roundabout with the N14 but shouldnt be difficult to upgrade the rest to at least 2+1

The N15 Ballyshannon & Bundoran Bypass is already 2+2 over the bridge and realistically its adequate at the moment as a 2+1

I'm sure parts of the N17 could be done between Sligo & Galway

Jayuu

The N24 Piltown/Fiddown bypass (which is currently 2+1 and pretty awful at nighttime). I would have though this would be simple enough.

L1011

Harps wrote: »

N13 Letterkenny - Derry, already DC as far as the roundabout with the N14 but shouldnt be difficult to upgrade the rest to at least 2+1

The N15 Ballyshannon & Bundoran Bypass is already 2+2 over the bridge and realistically its adequate at the moment as a 2+1

I'm sure parts of the N17 could be done between Sligo & Galway

2+1 is dead, gone, an ex-standard, etc (can't remember the full Python sketch here). It won't ever be built again.

tharlear

2+1 is dead, gone, an ex-standard, etc (can't remember the full Python sketch here). It won't ever be built again.

yes the 2+1 is dead and gone, but what the NRA's position vis a vis the 1+2?

Irish and Proud

MYOB wrote: »

2+1 is dead, gone, an ex-standard, etc (can't remember the full Python sketch here). It won't ever be built again.

Unless there was a recent amendment to the NRA DMRB, the 2+1 spec is now the Type 3 Dual Carriageway, Type 2 DC is 2+2 etc.

Type 3 DC is primarily for retrofit projects while Type 2 DC is primarily for new-build.

Regards!

L1011

Last updates on their website predate even the introduction of 2+2, handily.

Nearly 100% certain I've read an addendum preventing further construction of Type 3.

Ren2k7

While I was driving on the N3 leaving Cavan town this afternoon heading towards Virginia I noticed how wide a lot of this stretch of roadway is.

Would it be feasible to upgrade this type of road, WS2, to S4 spec. That is a type of road with two lanes in each direction without a crash barrier in the middle.

As far as i can see, the only thing that would need to be done would be to repaint the road. This, to me, would seem like a sensible idea.

It would provide a quasi dual carriageway without any new construction or major costs. Seeing as the country is now broke we should look at getting the most out of our existing road network.
Has such an idea ever been looked at seriously by the NRA or other bodies? Pro's and con's welcomed.

marmurr1916

There's a similar thread discussing sections that could be upgraded to 2+2:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056045242

Amtmann

Great minds thinking alike. Threads merged.

Ren2k7

marmurr1916 wrote: »

There's a similar thread discussing sections that could be upgraded to 2+2:

http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056045242

Apologies for not spotting that other thread. Must look over other threads before creating new ones in future.
Glad to see I'm not the only one thinking off this topic however.

Tech3

nordydan wrote: »

So basically the entirety of the N21 in Kerry? I would think that Tralee to the far side of Castleisland at least would be doable with perhaps an intermediate roundabout between the N22 junction and Castleisland for local movements. I wasn't so sure about the road NE of Castleisland

The road NE of Castleisland has enough cutting to expand the road to 2+2 standard although there is a small number houses along the stretch that will have to be CPO'd. IMO it is a good standard of road that was realigned in the early 90's.

Rest of the N21 to the border can easily be upgraded to 2+2 as most of it is WS2.

Why would you prefer S2 to 2+2?

The N17 is a deathtrap and I would rather see the funds going towards either the Tuam-Claremorris scheme or Collooney-Tubbercurry than the 2+2 upgrade of the Knock/Claremorris bypass.

fresca

n22 tralee - farranfore ?

tech2 wrote: »

The road NE of Castleisland has enough cutting to expand the road to 2+2 standard although there is a small number houses along the stretch that will have to be CPO'd. IMO it is a good standard of road that was realigned in the early 90's.

Rest of the N21 to the border can easily be upgraded to 2+2 as most of it is WS2.



The N17 is a deathtrap and I would rather see the funds going towards either the Tuam-Claremorris scheme or Collooney-Tubbercurry than the 2+2 upgrade of the Knock/Claremorris bypass.

spacetweek

tech2 wrote: »

The N17 is a deathtrap and I would rather see the funds going towards either the Tuam-Claremorris scheme or Collooney-Tubbercurry than the 2+2 upgrade of the Knock/Claremorris bypass.

Agreed, but in any case the retrofit of Knock/Claremorris was suspended in the recent budget cuts.

Upgrading good quality roads to 2+2 is a good idea, but you have to have a wider strategy. For example, what's the point of widening Cavan BP to 2+2 when there is no plan to ever connect it with the M3? Similarly for the N33. Unless the future Dublin-Derry road is routed this way, it's not needed.

That said, this still leaves many of the proposed upgrades:
All N15/N25 - Atlantic Corridor
N2 Castleblayney: Dublin-Derry route
N4 Boyle : Dublin-Sligo 2+2 is a long term objective

Tech3

I forgot this one: N17 Curry-Charlestown. Easy enough to upgrade.

JupiterKid

Ren2k7 wrote: »

While I was driving on the N3 leaving Cavan town this afternoon heading towards Virginia I noticed how wide a lot of this stretch of roadway is.

Would it be feasible to upgrade this type of road, WS2, to S4 spec. That is a type of road with two lanes in each direction without a crash barrier in the middle.

As far as i can see, the only thing that would need to be done would be to repaint the road. This, to me, would seem like a sensible idea.

It would provide a quasi dual carriageway without any new construction or major costs. Seeing as the country is now broke we should look at getting the most out of our existing road network.
Has such an idea ever been looked at seriously by the NRA or other bodies? Pro's and con's welcomed.

I don't think S4 is a good idea for non-urban roads given the speeds of traffic in each carriageway passing each other without a dividing barrier.

Research has shown that the fatality rates on S4 can be high because of the undivided nature of the carriageways and thus the potential for high speed head-on collisions which tend to be fatal. Having a dividing barrier to make the road 2+2 would be much safer and more prudent.

A problem with upgrading the Cavan to Virginia section of the N3 as I see it would the be the amount of private accesses off the road for houses, minor roads etc.

mk6705

One thing that's being hugely overlooked in this thread is the amount of junction work this would require. Some of these roads have alot of at-grade junctions, particularly with local roads. "Left-on-left-off" junctions may work but that would both restrict local access and maybe call for even more roundabouts. Something has to go over or under - and this could be costly. Leaving them as is would be unacceptable in my opinion - it would compromise one of the main safety features of 2+2, having no opposing traffic and no crossing traffic. very interested in seeing a few possible solutions.

L1011

Many of the roads that were suggested are offline new builds with few to no crossing roads, though. There were a surprising number of partial or full grade seperated single carriageways built!

sdanseo

Here's a bloody obvious one - N1 Coolock-Whitehall! 2+1 with a huge amount of free space either side and in the middle.

Heard a whisper on here it was made this way to satisfy residents? Either way should be 2x2, its the only single carriageway when you include bus lanes...even Dorset Street/Drumcondra Rd is 2+2 or even 3+3 with those.

Amtmann

Bad smash on the N2 Carrickmacross Bypass yesterday. Could it be upgraded to type 2?

ardmacha

This type of offline road with some flyovers should be ideal for conversion to 2+2. Even in the photo if the crash barriers were moved to the sound barriers then a 2+2 would be easy enough to do. Yesterday's accident shows why you might want to do this.

JupiterKid

That was a horrific accident. I think the WS2 type of road has a poor record for head on collisions and fatal accidents. Lives have definitely been saved by the replacement of WS2 on the national primary network by the motorways.

I would be a firm supporter of converting as much WS2 to 2+2 for the puropse of making the road safer.

Irish and Proud

JupiterKid wrote: »

That was a horrific accident. I think the WS2 type of road has a poor record for head on collisions and fatal accidents. Lives have definitely been saved by the replacement of WS2 on the national primary network by the motorways.

I would be a firm supporter of converting as much WS2 to 2+2 for the puropse of making the road safer.

Just to confirm, the section of N2 road shown above is Standard S2:

2 x 3.65m Lanes
2 x 2.50m Hard Shoulders
Total Pavement: 12.3m
Verges: 3.0m (could be upgraded to 2+1)

The specs for WS2 are:

2 x 5.00m Lanes
2 x 2.50m Hard Shoulders
Total Pavement: 15.0m
Verges: 3.0m (could be upgraded to 2+2)

The specs for Type 3 DC (2+1) are:

2 x 0.50m Verge Strips
3 x 3.50m Lanes
1 x 1.50m Median
Total Pavement: 13.0m (retrofit)
Verges: 2.5m

The specs for Type 2 DC (2+2) are:

2 x 0.50m Verge Strips
4 x 3.50m Lanes
1 x 1.50m Median
Total Pavement: 16.5m (new build)
Verges: 2.5m

I'll let you guys discuss!

niloc1951

My experience from driving in France is that 2+1 can be implemented at very little expense on an S2 roadways.
Common practice there is to use heavily serrated double white rumble strips (not wires as used here) to effect the separation and even heavier penalties for motorists caught on the wrong side

Chris_5339762

Irish drivers cant drive on 2+1s, there is a mad panic to pass at the end of the 2 section.

Horrible type of road. 2+2s are better, if overspecced.

L1011

The locals in Piltown claim the 2+1 there is more dangerous than the S2 through and between the towns it bypassed (Piltown and Fiddown). There has been far more deaths on it than you'd expect on a modern road scheme, let alone one with a safety barrier.

ardmacha

Irish drivers cant drive on 2+1s, there is a mad panic to pass at the end of the 2 section.

Simple cure, put a camera where lanes drop from two to one, if anyone either speeds or crosses into the hatched area then send them a ticket. You'd be suprised how people would get the hang of it after a while.

Jayuu

ardmacha wrote: »

Simple cure, put a camera where lanes drop from two to one, if anyone either speeds or crosses into the hatched area then send them a ticket. You'd be suprised how people would get the hang of it after a while.

+1

2+1 would have been a quick and simple way to upgrade a lot of smaller roads and provide a higher level of safety on them. Now I know the Piltown-Fiddown bypass and its wasn't well implemented - the wire barrier in the middle of the road is too indistinct and the junctions off the road are too far out into the driving lanes for comfort - but this form of road works well in other countries and it could have worked well here.

The idea that drivers are too stupid or careless to drive properly is not a good enough excuse. We were told for years that it wasn't possible for Irish drivers not to drink and drive and yet now most of us wouldn't dream of it now. With the advent of mobile speed cameras I reckon over the next ten years most of us will be careful of speeding as well. People's attitudes change with education and sometime with the threat of penalty.

ardmacha

Now I know the Piltown-Fiddown bypass and its wasn't well implemented - the wire barrier in the middle of the road is too indistinct and the junctions off the road are too far out into the driving lanes for comfort

I am familiar with the N2 Castleblayney bypass and it has a number of issues other than the problem of people squeezing past at the end of the 2 lane section. These include 2 lane sections without reference to topography, so that you have one lane going uphill and two lanes down, the exact opposite of traditional S3 roads. Also junctions with sharp turnoffs which would require large vehicles to slow down substantially to when leaving the road, a short slip lane would be reasonable here.

New builds should be 2+2, but 2+1 with better attention to detail has a role in upgrades.

Carawaystick

ardmacha wrote: »

I am familiar with the N2 Castleblayney bypass and it has a number of issues other than the problem of people squeezing past at the end of the 2 lane section. These include 2 lane sections without reference to topography, so that you have one lane going uphill and two lanes down, the exact opposite of traditional S3 roads. Also junctions with sharp turnoffs which would require large vehicles to slow down substantially to when leaving the road, a short slip lane would be reasonable here.

New builds should be 2+2, but 2+1 with better attention to detail has a role in upgrades.

There's a section of 2+2 on the N4 where the old road heading towards Sligo has a merge but there's no shoulder or slip lane, locals complained and the nra said no - it's designed like that on purpose.

If you're in the driving lane on a normal DC, and see someone on the onramp you can move right to let them merge, but if you see a stopped car, then you're far less likely to do this.

Is the N2 at 'Blaney so badly designed? I thought the N20 was bad as there was so much 1+1 sections due to junctions etc, I'd have thought a new build section would not have these obvious faults.

While I would have said the N1 at Shantalla, Santry is an obvious candidate, I've seen Ambulances and cops needing to cross carriageways to get where they were going in reasonable congestion on one side of the road.

FGR

I know it's rehashing old topics but if people were educated as to when hard shoulders should be used then most standard roadways would flow fairly smoothly.

I'm a supporter of 2+1; although not ideal it is definitely a low cost solution to a lot of the problems.

The N25 at both Youghal and Kilmacthomas both suffer from the issue of bridges possibly being too narrow. It's a shame it wasn't thought about at the design stage for possible future upgrades but I don't think there's much that can be done without massive spending on those bridges.

niloc1951

ForegoneReality wrote: »

I know it's rehashing old topics but if people were educated as to when hard shoulders should be used then most standard roadways would flow fairly smoothly.

I'm a supporter of 2+1; although not ideal it is definitely a low cost solution to a lot of the problems.

The N25 at both Youghal and Kilmacthomas both suffer from the issue of bridges possibly being too narrow. It's a shame it wasn't thought about at the design stage for possible future upgrades but I don't think there's much that can be done without massive spending on those bridges.

Our road designers appear be living in a bubble and not to have driven in other European countries which are light years ahead of us.
Examples: should have
2+1 using paint and heavy penalties
'p' junctions for turning across oncoming traffic, 'q' as they would be here. This type of junction enables traffic avoid the danger of being rear ended while waiting to turn.
Proper slip lanes, not like those where the M8 joins the M7.
Reduces speed limits at high risk areas on rural sections of main roads.
Simple rest areas with adequate parking and basic toilet facilities, properly designed with breaking and accelerating slip roads, to facilitate drivers counter fatigue and HGV drivers to comply with driving hours legislation.
Service areas.
Examples: should't have
Electronic message boards which refer to 'FAST LANE'
2 lane sections on hills which are marked to indicate that inside lane traffic (often referred to as the 'slow' thereby reinforcing the misconception that the outer lane is the 'fast' lane) is to give way to overtaking traffic, not nice of you are trying to keep a heavy or slow vehicle in motion.
Sections of N roads not much more than 6 meters wide with 100 km.p.h. speed limits.
Little or no enforcement of reduced speed limits at roadworks.
'Forgotten' signage referring to events or road conditions pertaining weeks, months or even years in the past.
Older signs obstructed by new signs.
Signs so dirty or concealed by foliage that are nearly impossible to read.

None of the above is 'rocket science', would not cost vast sums to implement, but it would show that those who should know actually care enough to do something about the environment we all have to drive in. It might actually reduce accidents and save a few lives.

I could go on but rant over.

ardmacha

While I would have said the N1 at Shantalla, Santry is an obvious candidate, I've seen Ambulances and cops needing to cross carriageways to get where they were going in reasonable congestion on one side of the road.

There is no reason no to have 2 lanes inbound here, even if one was a bus lane.

Is the N2 at 'Blaney so badly designed? I thought the N20 was bad as there was so much 1+1 sections due to junctions etc, I'd have thought a new build section would not have these obvious faults.

I do not think the N2 2+1 is well designed for a green field scheme.

Southern end of scheme. Single lane up gradual incline from roundabout, two lanes downhill into the roundabout

R183 junction. Sharp turn. If a HGV exits here it would have to slow right down. A HGV behind this would have to slow down too, on a gradual incline, without any opportunity for vehicles to pass.