Free DTT signal should be free on UPC via Digital TV Tuner

roverdublin

I cannot understand why not all free DTT signals are free over the Cable. Only RTE 1 is available free, TG4 and RTE 2 are not.

Is there a reason for this?

OK DTT is still not official, so why do they distribute RTE 1?

djimi

Nothing is free on UPC. Its a closed system and they supply what channels they choose to supply and charge accordingly.

watty

Also nothing to do with DTT

The Cush

roverdublin wrote: »

I cannot understand why not all free DTT signals are free over the Cable.

The subscriptions pay for the maintenance and operation of the cable networks, if you want them free install an aerial.

icdg

roverdublin wrote: »

I cannot understand why not all free DTT signals are free over the Cable. Only RTE 1 is available free, TG4 and RTE 2 are not.

Is there a reason for this?

OK DTT is still not official, so why do they distribute RTE 1?

As said above, nothing is free on cable.

Its not like DTT or satellite, which are broadcast systems. Cable is a purely subscription service. With DTT and satellite, you generally own your own reception equipment (even if, with Sky, you are getting it at a heavy discount) and you can use that equipment to tune in non-subscription channels. With cable, there are no non-subscription channels. You must take at least the very basic package (Digital Value on UPC) to get any channels, even RTÉ and TG4 which are paid for out of the licence fee.

If you are not a subscriber, UPC are within their rights to:
(a) Demand their STB back.
(b) Send an engineer out to physically cut the cable to your house.

Minstrel27

roverdublin wrote: »

I cannot understand why not all free DTT signals are free over the Cable. Only RTE 1 is available free, TG4 and RTE 2 are not.

Is there a reason for this?

OK DTT is still not official, so why do they distribute RTE 1?

DTT is a terrestrial system. You are a bit confused.

roverdublin

Minstrel27 wrote: »

DTT is a terrestrial system. You are a bit confused.

No, I do know that the Cable and DTT are two different things.

I assume that they forward the DTT on the Cable. Maybe I am wrong here.

Do they digitize the analogue signal???


However, RTE 1 is digital on the cable and is not encrypted ?

So, why is RTE 2 encrypted?

The Cush

roverdublin wrote: »

I assume that they forward the DTT on the Cable. Maybe I am wrong here.

Do they digitize the analogue signal???


However, RTE 1 is digital on the cable and is not encrypted ?

So, why is RTE 2 encrypted?

The broadcasters provide a digital feed to DTT, UPC and Sky.

I can't answer for UPC as to why they haven't encrypted RTÉ 1 maybe you should e-mail them. :rolleyes:

watty

roverdublin wrote: »

No, I do know that the Cable and DTT are two different things.

I assume that they forward the DTT on the Cable. Maybe I am wrong here.

Do they digitize the analogue signal???

No, Cable people do their own encoding. If it's widescreen they are re-encoding the digital feed (but maybe the digital feed sent to Sky) and if it's 14:9 letterbox / 4:3 then they are encoding an analogue feed. It's only likely with HD that they "copy" the digital content with out re-encoding. On regular TV they mostly want lower bitrate than DTT or Satellite.

DTT uses a different feed to Sky or UPC anyway as it's MPEG4 and Sky/UPC non-HD viewers can't decode MPEG4, only MPEG2.

It's entirely up to UPC which channels that are normally FTA (on aerial or dish) they encrypt. They are contractually obliged to encrypt payTV content.

If they want to have RTE1,RTE2, TV3 and TG4 "clear" or encrypted, it's up to them. You are stealing a service if you watch ANY cable TV without payment. So there are no free channels on cable. Just content free elsewhere that is supplied without extra charge.

roverdublin

The Cush wrote: »

I can't answer for UPC as to why they haven't encrypted RTÉ 1 maybe you should e-mail them. :rolleyes:

Point taken, I will contact UPC.
Will keep you up to date on this.

roverdublin

Watty...

If I connect my UPC antenna cable stright into my Sony TV I get RTÉ 1 on analogue and on digital. As I have said unencrypted, so is also the City Channel Dublin and Cork and some other channels.

The picture from the digital Sony tuner for RTÉ 1 is much better then the one I get over the UPC Standard box.

Are we talking about two different feeds? That cannot be.

I think the UPC box is not very good and is spoiling the feed.

watty

How do you connect to the UPC box?

How do you know it's not a DTT signal leaking into your cable?

Kensington

watty wrote: »

How do you connect to the UPC box?

Probably with a cheap scart lead with the box set to output CVBS

roverdublin wrote:

The picture from the digital Sony tuner for RTÉ 1 is much better then the one I get over the UPC Standard box.

Make sure you are using a decent Scart lead between box and TV. Have a look through your UPC box settings for Scart settings - set the box to output "RGB" and connect the Scart from the box to Scart/AV1 on your TV.

Apogee

The pattern of channels that the OP is receiving suggests that they are coming from UPC and not bleed in from DTT. Either he is in an area where UPC use DVB-T or else his Sony may have a multistandard tuner with DVB-C.

One reason why they might not encrypt all channels is that it facilitates fault finding.

MrVestek

He's talking sense lads. Take the viewing card out of your UPC box... you'll still get RTE 1.

watty

Actually maybe it's ex-Chorus MMDS. That uses DVB-T MPEG2.

Nothing else on UPC uses DTT.

It saves UPC money, potentially, to not encrypt content that they are not obliged to encrypt.

Antenna

I recall someone talking about the time the then Cork Mulitchannel introduced scrambling for their basic cable package in the late 1980s (then analogue of course) - the only Irish cable operation to do so.
He said that the Department of Communications had a ban on any scrambling/encryption by cable operators of the Irish national terrestrial channels (then just RTE 1 and 2). - wether they actually would have scrambled RTE i do not know.
Part of the reason I suppose was that if the subscriber's STB broke down, you could still be able to get RTE without need of an aerial.
Either this ban is gone or forgotten about now.

watty

That would not apply anymore.

Frank2k

In all fairness, the OP is making sense...

In The UK, I believe, all FTA channels (like the BBC's etc) are piped through cable networks unencrypted and no decoder is needed (at least with Virgin). Most other European cable TV providers pipe national PBS channels out for free as well but for some money-extortion reason UPC doesn't.

I think I read somewhere that within the EU it's illegal to re-transmit FTA TV channels and charging money for it, but I might be wrong. I guess NTL/UPC have done their home work (as they clearly are an A+ star student when it comes to everything else) and they can charge whatever they want for nothing really.

Just look how many FTA/FTV channels there actually are on UPC...

Minstrel27

watty wrote: »

How do you know it's not a DTT signal leaking into your cable?

It's definately not that. I have seen with my own eyes what the OP is referring to.

watty

Some TV sets also have DVB-C reception (other Markets, not UK or Ireland) and you use the CAM/Cable TV card in the TV. So it need not be DTT at all.

I think I read somewhere that within the EU it's illegal to re-transmit FTA TV channels and charging money for it, but I might be wrong.

You are. The only requirement is the permission of the content owner, who may allow it free to the operator or charge them. Sometimes "FTA" channels that are not "must carry" pay the operator to get carried.

roverdublin

Just to clarify....
No DTT leaking. One can never say no, but I firmly believe it is not coming from the air.
I get RTE1 through my DVB-C Tuner on my Sony TV (40W..MPEG4).
The UPC Box is neatly cabled.

STB

roverdublin wrote: »

Just to clarify....
No DTT leaking. One can never say no, but I firmly believe it is not coming from the air.
I get RTE1 through my DVB-C Tuner on my Sony TV (40W..MPEG4).
The UPC Box is neatly cabled.

Your UPC cable is acting as an aerial and is pulling in the analogue and then Irish DTT services on DVB-T. Whats the frequency and channel number for rte1 in info button ? 738MHZ (Ch 54) ?

Are you sure its the DVB-C tuner ? Perhaps UPC dont encyrpt RTE1 at present.

Apogee

STB wrote: »

Your UPC cable is acting as an aerial and is pulling in the analogue and then Irish DTT services on DVB-T. Whats the frequency and channel number for rte1 in info button ? 738MHZ (Ch 54) ?

Are you sure its the DVB-C tuner ? Perhaps UPC dont encyrpt RTE1 at present.

It's not DTT. UPC have always transmitted a number of channels in the clear.

BostonB

UPC simply don't encrypt this channel.

Its got nothing to do with DTT.

Why don't they decrypt more channels. Because they think they make more money this way.

Antenna

Frank2k wrote: »

In all fairness, the OP is making sense...
...

If the points were made a bit better, such as saying 'unencrypted' rather than 'free' or FTA!.

The national Irish terrestrials being encrypted or not on cable is not going to influence if someone will try and 'steal cable'
they can afterall be got from the air with a small aerial in cable areas.

Being also able to get some channels from cable on the TVs own tuner means there is a backup for the subscriber if the STB becomes faulty, Digital cable STBs are by no means 100% reliable.

Most UPC digital cable viewers at present have the analogue as backup, but we are being told this will be gone in a couple of years

icdg

roverdublin wrote: »

Watty...

If I connect my UPC antenna cable stright into my Sony TV I get RTÉ 1 on analogue and on digital. As I have said unencrypted, so is also the City Channel Dublin and Cork and some other channels.

The picture from the digital Sony tuner for RTÉ 1 is much better then the one I get over the UPC Standard box.

You should get RTÉ One (and all the other UPC analogue channels) if you do this. None of the analogue channels are encrypted now. Some premium channels were encryped in Cryptovision on Cablelink during the 1990s but they are long gone from analogue.

TV3 was unencrypted when I first got NTL Digital. Presumably this allows the installing engineer to check that the box is recieving a signal before pairing the viewing card to the box? I wasn't present when our original NTL STB was installed and (years later) also managed to miss its replacement with a UPC STB.

roverdublin

STB wrote: »

.......
Are you sure its the DVB-C tuner ? Perhaps UPC dont encyrpt RTE1 at present.

I am 99.99% sure. Never say 100%
At least I picked the Cable Tuner when I started the scan.

How do youexplain the fact that Setanta Ireland is also available unencrypted.


Think about what that means for anybody who has an MPEG4 cable Tuner TV but has only the Analogue subscription !!!

steveon

If you use an ex Chorus Aerial it will pull in the DTT channels on an MPEG4 tuner, this is what the previous poster is trying to say, I have done this a few times when playing around will old aerials...

Wouldnt recommend it but it does actually work.

BostonB

roverdublin wrote: »

...
Think about what that means for anybody who has an MPEG4 cable Tuner TV but has only the Analogue subscription !!!

As the digital box is cheaper and you get the analog with it anyway (in most places). I dunno.

Also if you have a TV with a MPEG4 tuner, its probably a newish Flat screen TV probably HD. It makes no sense to pay more for a analog connection that gives you less channels then the digital box. Getting a few free channels doesn't change that basic common sense.

UPC will turn off all the analog soon enough anyway.

MrVestek

I can confirm this. My gf's dad has a Sony W model LCD TV with a DVB-C tuner built in and he can pick up the channels on UPC's network that aren't encrypted. He can also see the channel list of all of the channels on UPC's network but not view them obviously.

The Orb

I have a Sony S32S5650, I put the UPC cable directly in to the TV and RTE1, TG4, Setanta Ireland and EWTN (praise the lord) could be viewed. The TV's digital EPG showed all the channels, what's on now/next, programme info etc. Curiously the radio channels were unencrypted.

Add me to the list. My Samsung LE40C530 has a DVB-C tuner and I can pick up RTÉ 1, Setanta Ireland and City Channel without the box. Has nothing to do with leakage or DVB-T, it's just that the TV can tune DVB-C channels. It's probably just a fluke that these channels are available at all, I know MTV Hits was in the clear for a few days.

ted1

it's not encrypted so then can use it for diagnosis

Frank2k

ted1 wrote: »

it's not encrypted so then can use it for diagnosis

Sorry ted1, but I have no idea what you're saying?

If what you're trying to say is that it's used by techs (and/or UPC in general) for diagnostics etc, you're wrong. There are quite few other streams (hidden) that are used for that sole purpose amongst others...

ted1

Frank, they use it when doing phone support, if the cutomer can see rte it means the feed is fine and the problem is with the card . saves the expense of sending a tech out

Frank2k

ted1 wrote: »

Frank, they use it when doing phone support, if the cutomer can see rte it means the feed is fine and the problem is with the card . saves the expense of sending a tech out

Ah, ok... Thanks for clarifying