What happened to C202?

Judgement Day

Whatever happened to poor old C202? The locomotive seen here near the site of Waterford South station a couple of years ago disappeared without trace. Having survived the attentions of the village idiots while marooned at the Cahirciveen Heritage Centre it was moved to Waterford for preservation (?). Surely having shelled out quite a large sum to move the loco from Kerry it was not scrapped? I don't want people coming on here with all sorts of nonsense about it - just hard facts. Incidentally, it was never destined for preservation at Dunsandle http://dunsandlestation.blogspot.com/ on the former Loughrea branch.

Any information gratefully received.

Hungerford

The scrapman put it out of its misery.

Eiretrains

Correct, probably now in use as razors; it was scrapped fairly recently, but the facts are a little muddy.
I once said it would have been idealy placed at the restored and remote (away from vandals) Kells Station near Cahirciveen.
It's a good example at how hard it is to keep something of (industrial) heritage preserved, or at least saved, in this country.

Judgement Day

Specific information - please - as loose talk cost lives!

BrianD

What happened to the loco in the picture? I'd be more interested as to what happened to the bridge in the background!!!

I recall it was hit by a ship a few years ago. What line was it a part of and is there any future use for it or will it just be allowed decay and/or fall into the river?

Judgement Day

BrianD wrote: »

What happened to the loco in the picture? I'd be more interested as to what happened to the bridge in the background!!!

I recall it was hit by a ship a few years ago. What line was it a part of and is there any future use for it or will it just be allowed decay and/or fall into the river?

It was part of the Mallow/Waterford line which closed in 1967 but the section from Ballinacourty (nr.Dungarvan) to Waterford was retained for freight traffic until 28/7/1982. I was on an xxxx dinner special over the line on the last day. Incidentally, there was a second passenger special on the line on the last day which brought workers from Quigley Magnesite at Ballinacourty for a day out somewhere.... memory fails me. The centre span was removed soon afterwards and is now dumped (along with lots of MkIII carriages) in Waterford goods yard.

BrianD

Was it hit by shipping or removed to facilitate shipping? Was the centre section liftable or movable?

foggy_lad

BrianD wrote: »

Was it hit by shipping or removed to facilitate shipping? Was the centre section liftable or movable?

there was/is a section of the bridge which lifted but i am not sure if that was the section they removed to facilitate shipping.

Judgement Day

The centre section was moveable similar to that on the Barrow Bridge on the now closed South Wexford line. It may have been hit by a ship but more likely CIE used that as an excuse for its removal.

EI8GHB

If I could be allowed to re-open this thread, with significant news, it would seem that C202 is still intact. Or at least it was in April of this year (2011).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51098945@N02/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51098945@N02/5742200761/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51098945@N02/5742753418/in/photostream

Doesn't look like razor blades to me!!!

Judgement Day

I presume that the location - Bishopshall - is near Kilmacow in County Kilkenny? I thought all the cognoscenti here and on IRN stated that it had been scrapped. :rolleyes:

corktina

Probably more or less where it was originally as Kilmacow isnt very far from that. Lets hope its in the hands of someone who will keep it even if restoration isnt practica (maybe it is, I dont know). Good to see it s still around

EI8GHB

By the looks of it, it's at a site where there are other railway items stored.

Run_to_da_hills

I'm surprised no one salvaged the double cab fronts of this loco as pub / nightclub props. If they were advertised on Fleabay they would have certainly got some international interest.

Des175d

Judgement Day wrote: »

Whatever happened to poor old C202? The locomotive seen here near the site of Waterford South station a couple of years ago disappeared without trace. Having survived the attentions of the village idiots while marooned at the Cahirciveen Heritage Centre it was moved to Waterford for preservation (?). Surely having shelled out quite a large sum to move the loco from Kerry it was not scrapped? I don't want people coming on here with all sorts of nonsense about it - just hard facts. Incidentally, it was never destined for preservation at Dunsandle http://dunsandlestation.blogspot.com/ on the former Loughrea branch.

Any information gratefully received.

Saw her on Tuesday - all intact apart from some rust, graffiti and broken windows.
Stored on rails and not open to the weather even though she's stored outside

haulage.basher

Des175d wrote: »

Saw her on Tuesday - all intact apart from some rust, graffiti and broken windows.
Stored on rails and not open to the weather even though she's stored outside

You saw her where exactly? It certainly aint in Bilberry anymore. Long gone from there. Some say it has been scrapped but I was talking to jackie Whelan at the WCR when I visited it in 2010 and we came to the subject of C202. He told me that he had purchased it and was bringing it to one of his sites.

I have no reason to doubt the man.

But in fiarness, Moyasta has become somewhat of a dumping ground lately. He seems to be buying up all sorts of every thing much of which, C202 being a good example, is gone far past the point of any restoration. The man is a hoarder, and it will break him.

corktina

first post, I wouldn't place much creedence on its truth with out more details and a photo

haulage.basher

Well, I just saying what I was told. And I was told from the horses mouth when I was up there. It was the same conversation with him when I asked him about the remaining cement bubble wagon outside the limerick shed and he said he had bought that too.

So since I heard it from him I will be willing to accept it unless Jackie Whelan has a habbit of telling bullshít to whoever pulls into the WCR carpark. I suppose he could have been telling one though. Who knows.

HAs anyone else on here got definitive proof that it has been scrapped? Pics of cutting up, etc

corktina

not you...da other guy...:rolleyes:

Losty Dublin

haulage.basher wrote: »

The man is a hoarder, and it will break him.

It will take a lot to break him; the guys a multi multi millionaire

Judgement Day

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It will take a lot to break him; the guys a multi multi millionaire

I doubt that but whether he is or not the Moyasta saga will end in tears.

Iolaire

Why's that?

gobnaitolunacy

haulage.basher wrote: »

I have no reason to doubt the man.

.

I wouldn't be at all surprised. *sigh* Moyasta looked like Hammond Lane scrapyard the last time I passed thru.

I like historic locos, but this empty shell should have been put out of its misery years ago, or alternatively do a Sean Brown style job on it.

Sligo Quay

Judgement Day wrote: »

I doubt that but whether he is or not the Moyasta saga will end in tears.

Your very pessimism JD

Cookie_Monster

Sligo Quay wrote: »

Your very pessimism JD

Just realistic IMO. All the locos are just sitting under tarps, rusting away in the salt air, no rail to run on, middle of nowhere, no progress in the last few years that's been heard of. They still be sitting there in 20 years IMO, unless the undesirables get to them and strip them before that...

Rud

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Just realistic IMO. All the locos are just sitting under tarps, rusting away in the salt air, no rail to run on, middle of nowhere, no progress in the last few years that's been heard of. They still be sitting there in 20 years IMO, unless the undesirables get to them and strip them before that...

Just a disgrace that the locos are being let to rot like that especially 124 and 190,they are personal favourites of mine.Horrible state of affairs

Iolaire

Rud wrote: »

Just a disgrace that the locos are being let to rot like that especially 124 and 190,they are personal favourites of mine.Horrible state of affairs

Your solution?

Judgement Day

Iolaire wrote: »

Your solution?

corktina

you would think that somewhere in this bankrupt country there would be an empty warehouse unit available to rent cheap, preferably somewhere where there are some people to help work on these locos rather than have them covered up , you can't do anything to them like that, might as well just scrap them

gobnaitolunacy

I would think the situation is akin to someone buying a classic car and simply leaving it out in the open or simply firing a tarp over it. If you don't have facilities to store it or no probability of facilities in the short/medium term DON'T BOTHER WITH IT. And unless you coat it in paint every other year and weatherproof it religiously, it WILL rust away. Then the scrappers will get it in the end, despite the money you threw at it to acquire and transport it.

Stuffed and mounted works in dry climates, but not here. We have a thing called rain which happens.
A lot.

Judgement Day

Sadly it was the same back in the - slightly less - bankrupt 1980s, factory units empty all over the country yet no home could ever be found for anything. No 'joined up thinking' , no 'can do' policies from on high, which is precisely why are preservation movement is where it is. Canals, cars, buses, trains, lightships.....and yet our 'masters' keeping on telling us how important tourism is to the country. If you don't like binge drinking with Brits in Temple Bar, surfing, visiting OPW interpretative centres, staying in zombie hotels or soaking up bungalow blight there's little to attract the visitor to Ireland.

corktina

very little. If I go to the UK there are places of interest at every turn, here, we can't even manage a small railway museum on the lines of Cultra and give all our potential exhibits to Northerners with more cop-on or assign them to little more than scrapyards. Any railway orientated "attraction" we do have is little better than a theme parkl with little regard for History.

Losty Dublin

One of the chief issues that the ITG have is a chronic lack of money to even let them think of hiring out a warehouse to store their loco's in or even to move them out of harms reach. Jackie Whelan is at least prepared to build a base for them, even if it's miles away and a few years away and as it stands, the ITG have no other choice for now but to go with. While there are sheds on the railway network that can hold loco's. there are none that will hold all of them at the one time, let alone allow them to be serviced to any lenght. It is easy to point at the UK and say this or that can be done but they had plenty of failures over there as well and the learning curve was long and harsh for them as well

The oft touted transport museum here is a very messy story and one that won't ever be done again. I won't go into here in any detail but suffice to say, it was fouled up with a lot of external wrangling which saw to it never getting off the ground. There was some internal wrangling in railway circles but it was surmountable, that much I do know.

Iolaire

JD and Corktina, that's an interesting opinion of Ireland. As an incomer I find 'interesting' things to do, see and go to, all over Ireland and continue to do so several years after I moved here. However, if you refer specifically to railway related attractions, then there are very few, given the extent of the rail network in past years.

I'm sure there must be a vacant warehouse with cheap rent that could house a good number of locos and other stock. It's a good solution but the main problem associated with this is getting one that is rail connected (take the rumours around the connection to the ITG shed at Carrick for example). The cost involved with moving a loco by road is eye-watering and if this needs to be repeated, most likely it is bankrupting to any group wishing to pursue this route.

On a slightly different point, I volunteered on railway preservation and always find it disheartening when I see someone mention people volunteering to work on old locos and the like. The sad reality of preservation is that talk is cheap and plentiful but labour is a priceless and rare commodity. I read endless discussion across various fora on what volunteers and groups should and shouldn't do but rarely are those with the opinions the ones who are prepared to sacrifice their spare time to help. Those that do, tend to do so quietly and if they're anything like me, come across the negative comments and wonder if the effort is actually worth the bother, given the apparent dissatisfaction with the results.

Perhaps the best option would be to scrap everything and put an end to it.

Judgement Day

Iolaire - I'm glad that you still find plenty in Ireland to interest you - surprised but glad. I can't speak for Corktina but If you read back over my posts in this forum you will see that my volunteering days are behind me and now I feel entitled to be a keyboard warrior.

PS How about a list of some of these things that you find interesting?

Judgement Day

Losty - I think that your version of what happened in the UK and mine are two very different stories. Not purely on the railway front but preservation of heritage in general. The few success stories in Ireland stick out like sore thumbs....thinks for a while..Sean Browne's pub...and that's about it on the railway front. Much easier to list the disasters....National Transport Museum in Howth (a bad joke), Westrail (gone), GSRPS (gone), C&L Dromod (a scrapyard), Kells Transport Museum - under siege, Rathgory Transport Museum (gone), Guillemot Lightship Maritime Museum (scrapped), Museum of Irish Transport (Killarney) - gone, Fry Model Railway Museum (closed), Dunsandle (on its way out), West Cork Model Railway Village (a bad joke), Clonmacnoise & West Offaly Railway (closed), Tralee & Dingle Rly Blennerville (defunct)...

No proper vehicle, aviation, or maritime museum in the Republic. No proper National Trust type body...a joke of a Heritage Council, a joke of a Tourist Board (2 actually!)......I could go on but what's the point..

Noel Dempseys Den

Judgement Day wrote: »

Losty - I think that your version of what happened in the UK and mine are two very different stories. Not purely on the railway front but preservation of heritage in general. The few success stories in Ireland stick out like sore thumbs....thinks for a while..Sean Browne's pub...and that's about it on the railway front. Much easier to list the disasters....National Transport Museum in Howth (a bad joke), Westrail (gone), GSRPS (gone), C&L Dromod (a scrapyard), Kells Transport Museum - under siege, Rathgory Transport Museum (gone), Guillemot Lightship Maritime Museum (scrapped), Museum of Irish Transport (Killarney) - gone, Fry Model Railway Museum (closed), Dunsandle (on its way out), West Cork Model Railway Village (a bad joke), Clonmacnoise & West Offaly Railway (closed), Tralee & Dingle Rly Blennerville (defunct)...

No proper vehicle, aviation, or maritime museum in the Republic. No proper National Trust type body...a joke of a Heritage Council, a joke of a Tourist Board (2 actually!)......I could go on but what's the point..

Fits in with my theory of many Official Ireland people wanting the place to be Little America.. railways/tramways/canals/industrial heritage being too West British to be of any interest to them. Gets in the ways of all the lovely mosherways.

At least Howth has a couple of trams and some nice buses that otherwise would have perished. As for the rest..

gobnaitolunacy

At least Howth have things under cover, perhaps not in the most visitor-friendly building.

corktina

I can do no more than point you at the workshops of the Swanage Railway in the UK (I'm a Life Member btw) which are an industrial unit with no rail connection. They seem to turn out lots of locos (including those of Southern Steam Locos Ltd of which there are half a dozen or more restored from scrapyard condition, mostly Pacifics (and they have a second depot in Kent , also not rail connected)

As for volunteering, well , find something in Cork and I'll be there (just missed out on Mallow, it closed just as I was going to get involved) . As regards the UK, I was a voulunteer at Didcot in my teens and later at the Mid Hants Rly where I put my money where my mouth was and co-owned my own carriage with another guy.So like JD I think I can hold my head up.

Iolaire

Judgement Day wrote: »

Iolaire - I'm glad that you still find plenty in Ireland to interest you - surprised but glad. I can't speak for Corktina but If you read back over my posts in this forum you will see that my volunteering days are behind me and now I feel entitled to be a keyboard warrior.

PS How about a list of some of these things that you find interesting?

Hah! Yes, I have read many of your posts and it's quite clear that you have a jaded view of preservation these days! ; )

Anyway, here's a short selection of things I've found to see/do. I won't mention the rocks on the north coast as they're hugely underwhelming.

Birr Castle and grounds. Offaly

Marble Arch caves. Fermanagh

Fintown Railway. Donegal

Newgrange, Hill of Tara. Meath

An Bróg, Cork City. Cork (it's a place to behold indeed)

end of the road

ah now, theirs lots of things to see in ireland, oh wait, now come to think of it, i'm wrong there, ghost estates, and apartments and houses that nobody wants along with shopping centres and motor ways that will be nothing like america ever, oh well, sorry all, wrong again as usual, ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sligo Quay

Moyasta seems to be a very sad state of affairs, why is it just over the border in Downpatrick its such a successful state of affairs, its like 2 different countries, its 1 Island, but its 2 different countries where things are run very different, everything south of the border in transport preservation seems to end in tears, from Tuam to Mallow to the place north of Dundalk but south of the border and to the scrape yard in Dromod, it all ends in tears. The first thing in a new outfit thats always discussed is ''The Split'' we have to have a split, then we set up a break away group, then it all ends in tears, btw was there a musuem in Cahir, is that gone as well, what about this mad crazy idea in New Ross, have the tears started to flow yet.

Iolaire

Sligo Quay, don't look to the north and think the grass is greener. It's far from it.

Downpatrick is a success story but that isn't down to the government, more so local government in the form of Down District Council who seem to be very supportive of DCDR and recognise it as a major tourist attraction for the area. Tourist income is a major part of the north's economy. There's also the equally important work of those from across the island who are involved so you could say it's an all-Ireland success.

If I was to compare rail preservation here with that in the UK, the main reasons I believe cause a disproportionate level of failure are that the numbers of enthusiasts just can't support more than a meagre number of projects and that the population is so sparse, relatively, that there are few locations that make such a project suitable (DCDR is 50 mins from Belfast and 2 hours from Dublin). Moyasta? 3 hours from Dublin, 5 hours from Belfast. Also, it's easy for people to be enthusiastic at the start but many lose interest when quick results aren't forthcoming - there's a lot of planning involved before the first sleeper is laid.

I realise that is a simplification of matters and that many may disagree. That's just my view as someone looking in from the outside.

gobnaitolunacy

Iolaire wrote: »

Sligo Quay, don't look to the north and think the grass is greener. It's far from it.

QUOTE]

Foyle Valley Railway, up north and not in a good way.

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

Losty - I think that your version of what happened in the UK and mine are two very different stories. Not purely on the railway front but preservation of heritage in general. The few success stories in Ireland stick out like sore thumbs....thinks for a while..Sean Browne's pub...and that's about it on the railway front. Much easier to list the disasters....National Transport Museum in Howth (a bad joke), Westrail (gone), GSRPS (gone), C&L Dromod (a scrapyard), Kells Transport Museum - under siege, Rathgory Transport Museum (gone), Guillemot Lightship Maritime Museum (scrapped), Museum of Irish Transport (Killarney) - gone, Fry Model Railway Museum (closed), Dunsandle (on its way out), West Cork Model Railway Village (a bad joke), Clonmacnoise & West Offaly Railway (closed), Tralee & Dingle Rly Blennerville (defunct)...

No proper vehicle, aviation, or maritime museum in the Republic. No proper National Trust type body...a joke of a Heritage Council, a joke of a Tourist Board (2 actually!)......I could go on but what's the point..

JD, I know that we have a lot of failed schemes and schemes which are lacking in some respects but the UK has had it's fair share of failed schemes, that's all I'm saying. Alone in the North, I can think of several floudered projects; some well known and others which fell by the wayside for some sane and some insane reasons.

To me it shows that there are a lot of factors that lead to failure. Crucially, these factors are far more significant that those which lead you to success so care is needed in where such a project may be located.

Noel Dempseys Den

Losty Dublin wrote: »

JD, I know that we have a lot of failed schemes and schemes which are lacking in some respects but the UK has had it's fair share of failed schemes, that's all I'm saying. Alone in the North, I can think of several floudered projects; some well known and others which fell by the wayside for some sane and some insane reasons.

To me it shows that there are a lot of factors that lead to failure. Crucially, these factors are far more significant that those which lead you to success so care is needed in where such a project may be located.

The factors IMHO are these:

1. No real support at local or national government level - due to a complete lack of understanding of industrial heritage. Derry City Council has brought into this "southern" mentality.

2. Too many schemes mooted for the size/density of the population AND the lack of domestic interest in transport. We could support one broad gauge and the Donegal narrow gauge in Glenties.

3. Dominant personalities and the inevitable "split"/bitchiness.

4. Indifference from the local population.

The converse of this is if a broad based society had local enthusiasm and support, then it could work.

gobnaitolunacy

Noel Dempseys Den wrote: »

The factors IMHO are these:

1. No real support at local or national government level - due to a complete lack of understanding of industrial heritage. Derry City Council has brought into this "southern" mentality. Tourism sector thought of as herding foreign visitors into Bunratty/Guinness Storehouse/Blarney Castle/Cliffs Of wherever/places where 'De Craic' is mighty and extracting money from them.

2. Too many schemes mooted for the size/density of the population AND the lack of domestic interest in transport. We could support one broad gauge and the Donegal narrow gauge in Glenties. ONE sensible concentrated NG base might just work, but people have got their own local agendas.

3. Dominant personalities and the inevitable "split"/bitchiness. Broke up too many groups to mention....

4. Indifference from the local population. Screwed Westrail's Loughrea base. Still you get the 'ah twas a shame that they took up all the railways' spiel and go off playing/watching the Gaa and havin' a dhrink which is far more interesting

The converse of this is if a broad based society had local enthusiasm and support, then it could work.

Add to the above lack of population to provide 'bums on seats' as well as volunteers.

.

Losty Dublin

Noel Dempseys Den wrote: »

The factors IMHO are these:

1. No real support at local or national government level - due to a complete lack of understanding of industrial heritage. Derry City Council has brought into this "southern" mentality.

2. Too many schemes mooted for the size/density of the population AND the lack of domestic interest in transport. We could support one broad gauge and the Donegal narrow gauge in Glenties.

3. Dominant personalities and the inevitable "split"/bitchiness.

4. Indifference from the local population.

The converse of this is if a broad based society had local enthusiasm and support, then it could work.

I'd not argue with you on any these points and I can add loads of others as well. One I will add is that most of all, specialist projects like a perserved railway need people who know what they are dealing with from the get go. This applies both on a practical level, a logistic level, a historical level and on a paperwork/business level. The schemes that do work work because everything applies to them; those that have failed do so because they lack one or more of these elements.