anti-depressants as fancy placebos

Freiheit

I don't consider there to be any question that a Psychotherapist is a mental health professional. On what grounds exactly does one propose their exclusion?....Who makes the rules of inclusion/exclusion and what gives them the authority to do so?

joolsthedog

John wrote: »

I agree that anti-depressants shouldn't be used as a standalone treatment, therapy and lifestyle changes need to be incorporated into treatment and the drugs used to aid in treatment, not be the sole course of treatment. I question the validity of their mode of action. I firmly of the opinion that depression is a biological problem (whether it is triggered by a biological or environmental event is of course dependent on the case) but based on the pharmacological and molecular literature, I think the anti-depressant effect of drugs like fluoxetine are actually side effects of their action on serotonin/noradrenaline concentrations at synapses.

Depression has been strongly linked with changes in synaptic plasticity (obviously mainly in animal research for the electrophysiological and pharmacological data); chronic treatment with anti-depressants cause changes in synaptic plasticity and promote the expression of proteins called neurotrophins (which are involved in the formation of new synapses (synaptogenesis), maintenance of existing synapses and promote neuron survival). The changes in neurotrophin expression usually coincides with changes in mood (I can't remember the reference for this but I'll look it up when I get a chance) and other known anti-depressant treatments such as exercise also have an effect on neurotrophic factors.

There's a lot more to it of course but personally I think there will be a more effective family of anti-depressants in the next decade or two but for the meantime the current generation of anti-depressants only work sporadically because they are not actually working directly on the biological underpinnings of depression.

Interesting thread but I have little time for Psychomumojumbo having spent a fortune attending a psycho-therapist for 18 mths. We have a sick "Healthcare" system where the lure of a returning paying client greatly outweighs the desire to help the patient escape the "black dog" of depression. The right medication, given in the right dosage at the right time works and shouldn't be dismissed so readily as I have seen elsewhere in this thread.

Odysseus

joolsthedog wrote: »

Interesting thread but I have little time for Psychomumojumbo having spent a fortune attending a psycho-therapist for 18 mths. We have a sick "Healthcare" system where the lure of a returning paying client greatly outweighs the desire to help the patient escape the "black dog" of depression. The right medication, given in the right dosage at the right time works and shouldn't be dismissed so readily as I have seen elsewhere in this thread.

Not all of us are in private practice, quite a few here work for the HSE so the therapy is free for the client, I don't think anyone I know who works with in a psychotherapeutic would have dismissed the role of abti-d's, however, whilst some people may function quite well with just meds, I think most people who work in mental health would concur that the best results are seen with a combination treatment.

Freiheit

Could it be that a certain level of emotional intelligence is required for Psychotherapy to be effective?. From experience in support groups, some people are just not good at looking inside themselves, whereas others are great and thrive with a CBT approach . The former less so. Just a thought.

Odysseus

Freiheit wrote: »

Could it be that a certain level of emotional intelligence is required for Psychotherapy to be effective?. From experience in support groups, some people are just not good at looking inside themselves, whereas others are great and thrive with a CBT approach . The former less so. Just a thought.

I'm not sure, it's a term I wouldn't use and tbh would not be too familar with it, for me it would be about having a question, without which therapy won't happen, even if that question is why am I here? However, I'm coming at it from a psychoanalytic viewpoint. Could you expand a bit on your understanding of the term.

Freiheit

You mean Emotional Intelligence? It means an ability to understand feelings,emotions ,thoughts, in themselves and in others. Such people tend to be good communicators, whether distressed or not and seem to understand a psychonalytic/cbt approach, in a way that others don't. As they understand it better they tend to respond to it better.

In Grow some of the material (using a c.b.t. approach ) can be heavy, it often takes a lot of intellect (in the area of emotional intelligence) to understand and implement. I sometimes feel that it works well for people who have a high aptitude in this area. Of course they may need help with medication short-term sometimes but can usually phase it out quicker, as the cbt approach and resulting actions helps them to naturally feel better over a number of weeks.

I just noticed that people with lower levels of emotional intelligence tend to respond less well to cbt. Some people don't respond to our approach at all, really depends on the type of person, or they may only respond in the very long term. In such cases I'm sure medication (imprecise though it is)would have a quicker impact in stabilising a chronic situation.

Odysseus

Freiheit wrote: »

You mean Emotional Intelligence? It means an ability to understand feelings,emotions ,thoughts, in themselves and in others. Such people tend to be good communicators, whether distressed or not and seem to understand a psychonalytic/cbt approach, in a way that others don't. As they understand it better they tend to respond to it better.

In Grow some of the material (using a c.b.t. approach ) can be heavy, it often takes a lot of intellect (in the area of emotional intelligence) to understand and implement. I sometimes feel that it works well for people who have a high aptitude in this area. Of course they may need help with medication short-term sometimes but can usually phase it out quicker, as the cbt approach and resulting actions helps them to naturally feel better over a number of weeks.

I just noticed that people with lower levels of emotional intelligence tend to respond less well to cbt. Some people don't respond to our approach at all, really depends on the type of person, or they may only respond in the very long term. In such cases I'm sure medication (imprecise though it is)would have a quicker impact in stabilising a chronic situation.

Cheers, yeah that's what I meant. It's not that I never heard of the term, and I do have some quailifications in CBT, but would not consider myself a CBT therapist.

On your question though I would need to consider it a bit more. I asked for your definition as I think it is one of those concepts with a very loose definition, by this I mean that I think it means different things for different people.

Mr Marri

I've been reading up on the connection between depression and brain chemistry and have come across a paper citing a direct connection between levels of serotonin and depressions.

Would any of you guys have access/read

Audhya, T, PhD., Advances in measurement of platelet catecholamines at Sub-picomole level for diagnosis of depression and anxiety, Clinical Chemistry, Vol 151, No. 6, Supplement, 2005,

Freiheit

In Gary Greenberg's book, Manufacturing Depression he makes reference to studies which appear to contradict the serotonin hypothesis. Studies exist to support and contradict every theory.

A V A

i dont know if im to start a new thread for this but ill just here anyway

i have just recently been put on anti depressants , lexapro , and im just wondering if im aloud drink with these tablets?? the doctor said im to take them at the same time every day i want to take them before i go to bed so i dont feel the side effects . but some nights i might be out and want to drink , if you guys can help that would be great and if im hi jacking someones thread im sorry for that to

Freiheit

I don't want to appear to give medical advice,

A V A

??

Freiheit

******

A V A

i do understand but

Freiheit

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JuliusCaesar

The thread has degenerated into the blind leading the blind. This is not Personal Issues and no medical or pharmaceutical advice can be given.

I'm locking the thread.