Pre-school Nativity Play: dilemma?

lynski

I got a slip today in from my sons pre-school asking if we wanted him to participate in the nativity play. We are in unchartered waters for us. this is our first child in any sort of school and we are as atheist as they come.
First instinct was to say no, then i figured i should actually talk it through with OH.
After talking to the teacher she thinks they will not do the nativity play, but will do some christmas story or singalong. So far so good and as he is going to an ET next year we will not be facing it again.
For me it was a context thing; if they did the play as a story, not as 'the real message of christmas' i was ok with it. It is a story they will come into contact with each year of their life so they will know it anyway. OH said no way, at all.

What to other atheists do when presented with this?

dvpower

lynski wrote: »

I got a slip today in from my sons pre-school asking if we wanted him to participate in the nativity play. We are in unchartered waters for us. this is our first child in any sort of school and we are as atheist as they come.
First instinct was to say no, then i figured i should actually talk it through with OH.
After talking to the teacher she thinks they will not do the nativity play, but will do some christmas story or singalong. So far so good and as he is going to an ET next year we will not be facing it again.
For me it was a context thing; if they did the play as a story, not as 'the real message of christmas' i was ok with it. It is a story they will come into contact with each year of their life so they will know it anyway. OH said no way, at all.

What to other atheists do when presented with this?

I don't think I'd have a problem with it (IIRC one of my kids did one). There are much more important issues to be concerned about.

Actually, I wouldn't even categorise it as an issue. If a pre school was to organise a Eid celebration, they'd probably be regarded as being progressive.

mikhail

lynski wrote: »

What to other atheists do when presented with this?

I don't know what I'd do, but I can't help but think of this.

strobe

lynski wrote: »

I got a slip today in from my sons pre-school asking if we wanted him to participate in the nativity play. We are in unchartered waters for us. this is our first child in any sort of school and we are as atheist as they come.
First instinct was to say no, then i figured i should actually talk it through with OH.
After talking to the teacher she thinks they will not do the nativity play, but will do some christmas story or singalong. So far so good and as he is going to an ET next year we will not be facing it again.
For me it was a context thing; if they did the play as a story, not as 'the real message of christmas' i was ok with it. It is a story they will come into contact with each year of their life so they will know it anyway. OH said no way, at all.

What to other atheists do when presented with this?

Don't mean to make light of the situation but if the school were putting on a play about Cu Chulainn or Romeo and Juliet would you object? It's a nice story, I did it, was Joey of all things, had fun. As long as your kid knows it's just a play, just a story, I can't see the harm.

Daftendirekt

Speaking as someone who isn't a parent, I don't think I'd have any problem with my hypothetical kid taking part. It's a traditional Christmas story that anybody can enjoy, and it might be good fun for your child.

So personally, I wouldn't worry about it.

Zillah

Just go with it. How old is a kid in pre-school anyway? Have them dress up, have fun and then forget about it a week later.

Wacker

Here's the kicker for me: for an atheist, it isn't that interesting a story. At all.

dvpower

Wacker wrote: »

Here's the kicker for me: for an atheist, it isn't that interesting a story. At all.

Its a kid's play; they're not suppossed to be interesting.

Genghiz Cohen

dvpower wrote: »

Its a kid's play; they're not suppossed to be interesting.

In fact, being asked to go and see it is a test of your love for your child.

Truley

My ET school was incredibly strict about avoiding religious influences, which meant no mentioning christmas in the classroom, no religious songs, decorations, and certainly, posivitively no nativity plays.

Instead we had seasonal festivals, spring fair, harvest fair and 'winter fair,' which was essentially our christmas. It usually involved a non reiligous 'prayer' service, seasonal songs, and making generic cards, which even at that young age I found a little daft. For example 'winter cards' with a vase of flowers on it or something

Ironically, they weren't as strict about other people's religious festivals being mentioned, for example during Eid and Ramadan they would bring muslim parents in to talk to the class. And on another occasion they brought in a Buddist monk. Which I have absolutely no problem with, I do think knowing about seasonal as well as cultural festivals are good for children... but still

Anyways by the time I was finishing up there they decided to relax the rules a bit and allowed christmas carols etc It was still kept very low key, with no tree, or decorations or mentions of santa. However the school did have their first nativity play which was a huge deal. It was even in the national papers.

So in short, from my experience, I think there is a happy middle ground between how most national schools shove christmas down chidren's throats, and how my school went way overboard trying to ignore it and keep it away from them. I would say go with your gut instinct, do you think taking a part in a nativity play is harmful for your child? Or even on a pragmatic level, how would you explain to him or her that they are not allowed take part in the play with the rest of their classmates, and how would you go about explaining the reasons why?

Rev Hellfire

mikhail wrote: »

I can't help but think of this.

Reminds me a bit of the funny kids having a laugh at the retard in the class, fun to do but not clever.

Anyhow's as for the OP I think you should stand up for your principles and decline the invitation to allow your child to be further indoctrinated.
Every time you capitulate is a further victory to religion and step back for those who seek an religion-free educational environment for their children.

dvpower

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Every time you capitulate is a further victory to religion and step back for those who seek an religion-free educational environment for their children.

Every time you fight a silly fight, your credibility is damaged for when you come to fight a serious one.

Rev Hellfire

dvpower wrote: »

Every time you fight a silly fight, your credibility is damaged for when you come to fight a serious one.

By participating you signal your acceptance of religion within the school environment. Or do principles only matter when they're convenient ?

Fair weather atheists they're no better than all the fair-weather Catholics I read about here.

magicbastarder

the only reason to bother doing it would be to prevent the kid from feeling left out. yes, it's great standing up for your principles, but if it runs the risk of your kid feeling ostracised, i think i know where the greater harm would lie.

if the school has a religious ethos, it'd be better to tackle it at board level rather than at school nativity play level.

amacachi

magicbastarder wrote: »

the only reason to bother doing it would be to prevent the kid from feeling left out. yes, it's great standing up for your principles, but if it runs the risk of your kid feeling ostracised, i think i know where the greater harm would lie.

if the school has a religious ethos, it'd be better to tackle it at board level rather than at school nativity play level.

I don't see how ethos has anything to do with it, it's a fairy story just like most plays a school would put on. OP once you can make it clear to the kid that it is just a fairy story I don't see a major problem with it.

strobe

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

By participating you signal your acceptance of religion within the school environment. Or do principles only matter when they're convenient ?

Fair weather atheists they're no better than all the fair-weather Catholics I read about here.

Fair weather atheists? Like atheists that only don't believe in an interventionist god some of the time?

Or do you mean fair weather anti-theists?

Rev Hellfire

strobe wrote: »

Fair weather atheists? Like atheists that only don't believe in an interventionist god some of the time?

Or do you mean fair weather anti-theists?

I think its clear I mean people who claim they're atheists and advocate a distinct separation of religion and schooling, except when it doesn't suit them.

dvpower

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I think its clear I mean people who claim they're atheists and advocate a distinct separation of religion and schooling, except when it doesn't suit them.

I should advocate a system that doesn't suit me now, just so I can earn my next atheist badge?

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Fair weather atheists they're no better than all the fair-weather Catholics I read about here.

^^ This is meaningless.

Rev Hellfire

dvpower wrote: »

I should advocate a system that doesn't suit me now

I take it then you don't advocate the idea of a separation of church and school then, that's fine if that's what you believe.

Truley

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

By participating you signal your acceptance of religion within the school environment. Or do principles only matter when they're convenient ?

They're your principles though, and you should be very careful not to let your strong opinions override what is actually best for your children. If you decide to tell a young child their class play is damaging or morally wrong. Keep in mind that the child will more than likely watch the other children do the play, have fun, enjoy learning and suffer no ill effects. The child will end up extremely confused by the mixed messages. You will have to do a very good job of explaining how and why this play is not good for them.

Who knows, they may thank you when they're older for sticking to your principles. Or maybe they will feel you are the one that was doing the indoctrination.

Rev Hellfire

Truley wrote: »

They're your principles though, and you should be very careful not to let your strong opinions override what is actually best for your children. If you decide to tell a young child their class play is damaging or morally wrong. Keep in mind that the child will more than likely watch the other children do the play, have fun, enjoy learning and suffer no ill effects. The child will end up extremely confused by the mixed messages. You will have to do a very good job of explaining how and why this play is not good for them.

Who knows, they may thank you when they're older for sticking to your principles. Or maybe they will feel you are the one that was doing the indoctrination.

Ohh I understand the peer-pressure argument, and perhaps its a valid one.

But if people are serious about opposing the church and religion in schools then people need to take a stance. You can't really complain, when if the opportunity to stand your ground arrives and you do the easy thing and fall-over.

I mean how many Muslim and Hindu children do you think partake in the Christian nativity play? Not a lot I'd imagine, I'm open to correction though.
If their kids can handle not doing it, I'm sure an atheists kids would manage as well.

Truley

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Ohh I understand the peer-pressure argument, and perhaps its a valid one.

But if people are serious about opposing the church and religion in schools then people need to take a stance. You can't really complain, when if the opportunity to stand your ground arrives and you do the easy thing and fall-over.

I mean how many Muslim and Hindu children do you think partake in the Christian nativity play? Not a lot I'd imagine, I'm open to correction though.
If their kids can handle not doing it, I'm sure an atheists kids would manage as well.

My younger brother's class was about 40% non-christian. Everybody took part in the nativity play with absolutely no problems, (part of the reason it probably ended up in the paper, because of how 'multi-cultural' it looked.)

Look, plays and songs can be a fantastic way of helping young chidren learn about and understand the world around them. A nativity play gives them an insight into the orgins of what christmas is, and why the people around them celebrate it. It has little to do with whether you share the religious beliefs that coincide with the festival, the point is understanding something that happens around them every year, and in that sense it is as real as you and me. For this reason most people wouldn't have an issue with a non Irish child doing a play about Fionn Mc Cool, or a non American learning songs about Native Americans.

ET schools didn't forbid nativity plays because they considered them indocriniation. It was more out of concern of having a christian/christmas bias in a school of so many non-christians. However since the OP doesn't have a problem with christmas songs or other christmas themed plays, he clearly doesn't have a problem with that aspect.

Ickle Magoo

Truley wrote: »

ET schools didn't forbid nativity plays because they considered them indocriniation. It was more out of concern of having a christian/christmas bias in a school of so many non-christians...

I think it has more to do with their ethos of not promoting one religion over any other than a general concern for bias...our ET has a christmas play, last year it was about a snowman that helped santa and the reindeer - which, ironically, had much more relevance to the majority of pupils.

On the topic of pre-school nativity plays, I think if it is something you feel strongly about then you need to ask about policy on religiously themed activities when signing your kid up but tbh, I would view a nativity in much the same vein as I do the snowman helping santa and I'm sure without any kind of stress on religious importance at home, the kids do too.

Rev Hellfire

Truley wrote: »

My younger brother's class was about 40% non-christian. Everybody took part in the nativity play with absolutely no problems, (part of the reason it probably ended up in the paper, because of how 'multi-cultural' it looked.)

Look, plays and songs can be a fantastic way of helping young chidren learn about and understand the world around them. A nativity play gives them an insight into the orgins of what christmas is, and why the people around them celebrate it. It has little to do with whether you share the religious beliefs that coincide with the festival, the point is understanding something that happens around them every year, and in that sense it is as real as you and me. For this reason most people wouldn't have an issue with a non Irish child doing a play about Fionn Mc Cool, or a non American learning songs about Native Americans.

ET schools didn't forbid nativity plays because they considered them indocriniation. It was more out of concern of having a christian/christmas bias in a school of so many non-christians. However since the OP doesn't have a problem with christmas songs or other christmas themed plays, he clearly doesn't have a problem with that aspect.

Well I stand corrected.

Seems odd, but there you have it.

mikhail

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I take it then you don't advocate the idea of a separation of church and school then, that's fine if that's what you believe.

I think it's comparable to the difference between campaigning for reform and civil disobedience. You don't have to refuse to work within the current system to argue that it's broken.

Rev Hellfire

mikhail wrote: »

I think it's comparable to the difference between campaigning for reform and civil disobedience. You don't have to refuse to work within the current system to argue that it's broken.

That I can understand, but this is an optional activity.

Clearly I'm alone in seeing an inconsistency here, so I'll leave it.

lynski

Thanks for the replies all.
As i said it depends on the context, if there was an over-riding 'this the the REAL christmas story. lets all go pray to holy god' thing going on, then i would be very unhappy, and would have to look at the pre-school again. One of the reasons he is there rather then his previous creche is that i found out that in the montessori/pre-school classes they said a prayer each day before lunch.
As it is a private, commercial enterprise, it is not subjected to the ethos of the BOM as primary schools are. They seem to be sensitive to the fact that there are a lot of non-catholics in his class, 5 other classmates are going to ET for junior infants next year, so a third.
The other montessori class will do the nativity play and we will be able to talk to him about how this is a story, like ghosts and monsters, and see how we go.
it is one of the important myths of our culture, but i think comparing it to fionn mccool or cuculchainn is not valid - there are no fundamentalist irish mythology believers out there trying to convert people to their beliefs or killing people for their beliefs.
Rev, btw I am with you, i do believe that you have to make a stand where you can, this is why he and his siblings will go to the nearest ET, despite this being a 20 min drive away and not where any of his current friends or neighbors will go, that is why they are not baptised and that is why whenever asked i do say'I am and Atheist' i don't fudge it, ever.

dvpower

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I take it then you don't advocate the idea of a separation of church and school then, that's fine if that's what you believe.

I do advocate seperation of church and state, but I wouldn't outlaw nativity plays for pre school children in private childcare arrangements.

strobe

lynski wrote: »

it is one of the important myths of our culture, but i think comparing it to fionn mccool or cuculchainn is not valid - there are no fundamentalist irish mythology believers out there trying to convert people to their beliefs or killing people for their beliefs.

Yeah actually, you are right there of course. I'm not sure where I was going with that comparison. Totally different situation.

Truley

lynski wrote: »

it is one of the important myths of our culture, but i think comparing it to fionn mccool or cuculchainn is not valid - there are no fundamentalist irish mythology believers out there trying to convert people to their beliefs or killing people for their beliefs.

I can see where you're coming from but I think you are making a big leap between the play as it is and the negative things associated with it in the past. The story of the nativity isn't what kills people or commits barbaric acts, It's the individuals and institutions that abused it. The play by itself, standing alone from any religious institutions or people, is pretty harmless I'm sure most would agree.

For example we studied the Communist Manifesto in University because it was interesting and because of its cultural and historical significance. Acknowledging (not worshipping!) the book and the points it made does not automatically mean we are validating the abuses that may have stemmed from it in later years.

Posy

OP, just wondering, as an atheist, would you be celebrating Christmas with your child?

Ickle Magoo

whole thread about christmas and atheism

Posy

Thanks. I read that thread but wondered more specifically how the OP would deal with celebrating/not celebrating Christmas with their child if they are so opposed to the concept they don't want them joining in a nativity play.

ColmDawson

In fairness, the Christmas celebration of the average 'Christian' doesn't have much (if anything) to do with Jesus. A school nativity play would probably have more theological content than your average family's Christmas.

Add to that the fact that atheists can and do celebrate Christmas without any celebration of Jesus. It's a winter festival older than Christianity itself — a much-needed excuse to eat and drink ourselves out of seasonal gloom.

Ickle Magoo

Posy wrote: »

Thanks. I read that thread but wondered more specifically how the OP would deal with celebrating/not celebrating Christmas with their child if they are so opposed to the concept they don't want them joining in a nativity play.

Well the whole point of the thread link I posted was really to pre-empt the whole "you can't celebrate christmas if you're not a christian" that often gets wheeled out as if it's actually a christian festival and not one adopted from other cultures/religions which has now evolved again to have very little to do with religion - and indeed my own post above about christmas plays at schools that consist of santas and reindeer and snowmen was to show how little relevance specifically christian elements of christmas have to many people - celebrating with gifts and feasts in winter pre-dates christianity - I can't imagine why not being christian would matter a jot in terms of carrying on that tradition. :cool:

AudreyHepburn

lynski wrote: »

I got a slip today in from my sons pre-school asking if we wanted him to participate in the nativity play. We are in unchartered waters for us. this is our first child in any sort of school and we are as atheist as they come.
First instinct was to say no, then i figured i should actually talk it through with OH.
After talking to the teacher she thinks they will not do the nativity play, but will do some christmas story or singalong. So far so good and as he is going to an ET next year we will not be facing it again.
For me it was a context thing; if they did the play as a story, not as 'the real message of christmas' i was ok with it. It is a story they will come into contact with each year of their life so they will know it anyway. OH said no way, at all.

What to other atheists do when presented with this?

It's a bit of fun for the kids, just go with it.

I don't think it's right that you should push your beliefs on such a young a child, at least in such a way that you would separate them from their friends and make them see the fun their friends are having as a lie or damaging or whatever way you would present it to them.

It'll be Christmas, just relax and let your little one have fun.

There are more important things to worry about.

Zombrex

I think the OP should simply talk to their child about what Christmas is and then (child willing) let them participate. They will learn valuable lessons taking part in a group activity like a play. The only thing you need to be cautious about is teachers preaching to the children so you defo need to talk to the kid about what it is all about. But after that it is after all simply a (boring) story.

iguana

Wicknight wrote: »

I think the OP should simply talk to their child about what Christmas is and then (child willing) let them participate. They will learn valuable lessons taking part in a group activity like a play. The only thing you need to be cautious about is teachers preaching to the children so you defo need to talk to the kid about what it is all about. But after that it is after all simply a (boring) story.

Boring? You have a heavily pregnant lady forced onto a donkey by an unreasonable overlord, childbirth in a barn, a magic star which is actually an alien spaceship (if Chris de Burgh is to be believed), kings bearing wildly inappropriate baby gifts and a selection of animals. It's been a long time since you were a kids, hasn't it?:pac:

Shenshen

lynski wrote: »

I got a slip today in from my sons pre-school asking if we wanted him to participate in the nativity play. We are in unchartered waters for us. this is our first child in any sort of school and we are as atheist as they come.
First instinct was to say no, then i figured i should actually talk it through with OH.
After talking to the teacher she thinks they will not do the nativity play, but will do some christmas story or singalong. So far so good and as he is going to an ET next year we will not be facing it again.
For me it was a context thing; if they did the play as a story, not as 'the real message of christmas' i was ok with it. It is a story they will come into contact with each year of their life so they will know it anyway. OH said no way, at all.

What to other atheists do when presented with this?

Ask the kid.
At the end of the day, it's him who will either be dying to be in the play cause everybody else in class is, or horrified by the idea of being on stage.... in either case, I would leave it up to the child.

ShooterSF

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It's a bit of fun for the kids, just go with it.

I don't think it's right that you should push your beliefs on such a young a child, at least in such a way that you would separate them from their friends and make them see the fun their friends are having as a lie or damaging or whatever way you would present it to them.

It'll be Christmas, just relax and let your little one have fun.

There are more important things to worry about.

So you'd share Dawkin's beliefs on that subject? What about parents who have a child baptised and indoctrinate them into Christianity at a young age?

AudreyHepburn

ShooterSF wrote: »

So you'd share Dawkin's beliefs on that subject? What about parents who have a child baptised and indoctrinate them into Christianity at a young age?

I expect you want me to say it's ok to indoctrinate a child in Christianity because I am one myself, but I won't.

I see nothing wrong baptism itself, I mean all it is is a few prayers, some oil on the baby's head and a celebration of the new life that has begun.

I believe we should teach our children what we believe but let them know that it's ok for them to choose their own beliefs.

It it were me I'd say something like "Well I/Mammy believes in God and Jesus but you can believe what ever you want, just as long as you're happy"

Des Carter

lynski wrote: »

I got a slip today in from my sons pre-school asking if we wanted him to participate in the nativity play. We are in unchartered waters for us. this is our first child in any sort of school and we are as atheist as they come.
First instinct was to say no, then i figured i should actually talk it through with OH.
After talking to the teacher she thinks they will not do the nativity play, but will do some christmas story or singalong. So far so good and as he is going to an ET next year we will not be facing it again.
For me it was a context thing; if they did the play as a story, not as 'the real message of christmas' i was ok with it. It is a story they will come into contact with each year of their life so they will know it anyway. OH said no way, at all.

What to other atheists do when presented with this?

Why are you so against your child learning about different beliefs - is it not better if he knew some information about the different theories in regards to a "God" and for him to make up his own mind. Having said that do you really think he is gonna be brainwashed into thinking there is a God after partaking in a childrens play? I seriously doubt that as in my experience its more about the fun and exitement of being in a play.

lynski

Des Carter wrote: »

Why are you so against your child learning about different beliefs - is it not better if he knew some information about the different theories in regards to a "God" and for him to make up his own mind. Having said that do you really think he is gonna be brainwashed into thinking there is a God after partaking in a childrens play? I seriously doubt that as in my experience its more about the fun and exitement of being in a play.

when and where did i say that was against my child learning about different beliefs? he will be 4, he is not going to be able to differentiate between the messages his teacher is giving him - as i said in the very first post - if it is done as a story and not as the ''real message of christmas, lets all pray to holy god' then all good, but when you have the same people who are telling him the 'a is for apple and b is for bath' telling him that 'god is watching you' then I have a problem. Because when he comes home and says 'mommy apple is an a word' and i say 'great boy, did teacher tell you that?' and the next day he tells me 'god is watching me' and i have to say 'well i think teacher is wrong there, I dont believe there is a god' What does that do to a 4 yr old? possibly nothing, but who know? Not me this is my first experience of this and I was simply asking for thoughts.
We simply do not discuss god in this house, there is no reason to, we have managed to get to almost the end of his first 4 yrs without having to discuss it with him. I am not for burying my head, but I believe that if I can allow him as long as possible in an education environment that is supportive and respectful to our views, then all the better for him.

AudreyHepburn

lynski wrote: »

when and where did i say that was against my child learning about different beliefs? he will be 4, he is not going to be able to differentiate between the messages his teacher is giving him - as i said in the very first post - if it is done as a story and not as the ''real message of christmas, lets all pray to holy god' then all good, but when you have the same people who are telling him the 'a is for apple and b is for bath' telling him that 'god is watching you' then I have a problem. Because when he comes home and says 'mommy apple is an a word' and i say 'great boy, did teacher tell you that?' and the next day he tells me 'god is watching me' and i have to say 'well i think teacher is wrong there, I dont believe there is a god' What does that do to a 4 yr old? possibly nothing, but who know? Not me this is my first experience of this and I was simply asking for thoughts.
We simply do not discuss god in this house, there is no reason to, we have managed to get to almost the end of his first 4 yrs without having to discuss it with him. I am not for burying my head, but I believe that if I can allow him as long as possible in an education environment that is supportive and respectful to our views, then all the better for him.

Do you have to tell him unecoivically the teacher is wrong though? Because you don't really know for sure anymore than any of the rest of us.

Couldn't you just say you don't believe in God but some people do and it is up to him what he believes?

You do see that you are doing to him what you are so afraid of the school doing i.e. indoctrinating him into your belief system. Why should your views come before allowing him to join in with his peers and have fun?

I think you need to get this in perspective a bit. It's a Nativity play. He's not being asked to join a cult. Alienating him from his friends because of your beliefs will not help him in any way.

Better for him to be allowed to choose his beliefs for himself and learn tolerance for everyone and every faith.

lynski

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Do you have to tell him unecoivically the teacher is wrong though? Because you don't really know for sure anymore than any of the rest of us.

Couldn't you just say you don't believe in God but some people do and it is up to him what he believes?

You do see that you are doing to him what you are so afraid of the school doing i.e. indoctrinating him into your belief system. Why should your views come before allowing him to join in with his peers and have fun?

I think you need to get this in perspective a bit. It's a Nativity play. He's not being asked to join a cult. Alienating him from his friends because of your beliefs will not help him in any way.

Better for him to be allowed to choose his beliefs for himself and learn tolerance for everyone and every faith.

Does anyone actually read posts before responding? I said ' I think the teacher is wrong there' I think! Not the teacher is wrong - i think the teacher is wrong.
I never said he would be indoctrinated, just that i did not want him being told this was the 'real message' or any such crap.
If you are not an atheist why are you responding to this? I asked for atheists to share their views and experiences.

ShooterSF

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I expect you want me to say it's ok to indoctrinate a child in Christianity because I am one myself, but I won't.

I see nothing wrong baptism itself, I mean all it is is a few prayers, some oil on the baby's head and a celebration of the new life that has begun.

I believe we should teach our children what we believe but let them know that it's ok for them to choose their own beliefs.

It it were me I'd say something like "Well I/Mammy believes in God and Jesus but you can believe what ever you want, just as long as you're happy"

TBH I didn't want you to say it, though I did expect it. And to be fair to me it is the approach of the vast majority of religious parents. When they are enrolling their kids into school, if asked the religion of the child I doubt many reply "(S)he is too young to have decided". Instead they push their beliefs onto the child and as such give license to their religious beliefs being taught to the child from a young age as truth. Hardly impartial...

Des Carter

lynski wrote: »

when and where did i say that was against my child learning about different beliefs? he will be 4, he is not going to be able to differentiate between the messages his teacher is giving him - as i said in the very first post - if it is done as a story and not as the ''real message of christmas, lets all pray to holy god' then all good, but when you have the same people who are telling him the 'a is for apple and b is for bath' telling him that 'god is watching you' then I have a problem. Because when he comes home and says 'mommy apple is an a word' and i say 'great boy, did teacher tell you that?' and the next day he tells me 'god is watching me' and i have to say 'well i think teacher is wrong there, I dont believe there is a god' What does that do to a 4 yr old? possibly nothing, but who know? Not me this is my first experience of this and I was simply asking for thoughts.
We simply do not discuss god in this house, there is no reason to, we have managed to get to almost the end of his first 4 yrs without having to discuss it with him. I am not for burying my head, but I believe that if I can allow him as long as possible in an education environment that is supportive and respectful to our views, then all the better for him.

1st off apologies if I jumped to conclusions etc I didnt mean to offend you.

But in my experience of the modern day education system in Ireland religion is playing less of a role every day and most schools will not teach things like "God does exist" as religion has become souch a touchy subject for so many and even schools with a catholic ethos have students from different religions so as a result teachers will avoid the religion issue as much as possible to avoid causing trouble.

So in my opinion preventing your son from partaking in the play is a bit extreme.

AudreyHepburn

lynski wrote: »

Does anyone actually read posts before responding? I said ' I think the teacher is wrong there' I think! Not the teacher is wrong - i think the teacher is wrong.
I never said he would be indoctrinated, just that i did not want him being told this was the 'real message' or any such crap.
If you are not an atheist why are you responding to this? I asked for atheists to share their views and experiences.

This is a public forum isn't it?

robindch

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I see nothing wrong baptism itself, I mean all it is is a few prayers, some oil on the baby's head and a celebration of the new life that has begun.

Quite reasonable

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I believe we should teach our children what we believe but let them know that it's ok for them to choose their own beliefs.

That's a good position to hold and it would be great if it were universally held by religious people. The problems only start when people view it as their religious and moral duty to have their children believe and think exactly the same things as they do, and believe that they are justified in doing or saying just about anything they want to -- as some people do -- in order to make this happen.

AudreyHepburn

ShooterSF wrote: »

TBH I didn't want you to say it, though I did expect it. And to be fair to me it is the approach of the vast majority of religious parents. When they are enrolling their kids into school, if asked the religion of the child I doubt many reply "(S)he is too young to have decided". Instead they push their beliefs onto the child and as such give license to their religious beliefs being taught to the child from a young age as truth. Hardly impartial...

Is it? Have you stats/numbers to back that up or are you just assuming/guessing?

iguana

robindch wrote: »

Quite reasonable

Except that's not just what a baptism is. The Church uses the baptism figures as a political tool when lobbying the government. Every child baptised into a particular church bolsters that church's claims of representation.