Circumcision

Greentopia

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Removing foreskin is hardly mutilation.

Did you read that study posted here?
I would call something that can cause erectile dysfunction, scarring, loss of sensitivity and a malformed member mutilation! that's if it doesn't kill you of course.

Micky Dolenz

Greentopia wrote: »

Why not? just because something is a culturally accepted practice doesn't make it right. I would assume you would agree that female genital mutilation is wrong and something to be rightly criticised so why not male? It's also unnecessary mutilation of the genitalia.

There is a big difference between male and female circumcision.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Um.. yes.. yes it is.

We're not talking about trimming finger nails here.

Kids die because of geneital mutilation. Lots of kids.

Hundreds of kids in the US end up dead because of circumcision

I never said I agreed with it, the contrary in fact. I don't however have such strong feelings of anger about it as stated below. That was my point.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Its a disgusting barbaric act carried out by disgusting barbaric people.

It's mutilating children because an imaginary man in the sky said so.

Fucking pathetic morons.

Chuck Stone

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I never said I agreed with it, the contrary in fact. I don't however have such strong feelings of anger about it as stated below. That was my point.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

That post just reeks of ignorance and hatred,

Your point is that I reek of ignorance and hatred.

Why do you think this?

Micky Dolenz

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Why?

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Its a disgusting barbaric act carried out by disgusting barbaric people.
.

Lumping entire cultures together and calling them disgusting and barbaric, no other reason,facts or logic to argue your point- Ignorance

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Fucking pathetic morons.

Using strong negative emotive language to reinforce a point without any other information or fact - hatred

Greentopia

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

There is a big difference between male and female circumcision.

I agree, female circumcision is not analogous to male in the degree of pain, suffering and life long debilitating medical problems it causes (in general, though as has been stated male circumcision has been known to cause pain and even death), but that doesn't mean male circumcision is not also mutilation. It's just to a (mainly) lesser degree.

Micky Dolenz

Greentopia wrote: »

I agree, female circumcision is not analogous to male in the degree of pain, suffering and life long medical problems it causes (in general, though as has been stated male circumcision has been known to cause pain and even death), but that doesn't mean male circumcision is not also mutilation. It's just to a (mainly) lesser degree.

Maybe so. I know a lot of people with it. some for medical reasons but most for cultural. They seem like normal enough people, as in , they don't feel mutilated.

I don't know of any females that had it done.

KilOit

Happy to have parents that weren't complete idiots, unfortunately 2 of my friends had. 2.5 million years of evolution for todays humans and last couple hundred we decide evolution is wrong. Parents should be ashamed of themselves for mutilating their children forever.

Chuck Stone

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Lumping entire cultures together and calling them disgusting and barbaric, no other reason,facts or logic to argue your point- Ignorance

I don't hate their culture at all. I hate what they do to their children (taking sharp implements and mutilating them because of cultural superstition).

Using strong negative emotive language to reinforce a point without any other information or fact - hatred

I have provided a link which shows that 100 children die every year in one of the most technologically advanced countries on the planet.

Let's not allow our wish to appear liberal get in the way of right and wrong shall we?

I think you have it bass ackwards Sir.

Biggins

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Removing foreskin is hardly mutilation.

If fairness, cutting something natural off your body that nature gave you (I assume for some reason) - be it in big degree or small degree, thats still mutilation.
At least I think so.

jased10s

So why does all vibrators have circumsicision'd heads ?
I heard ladies like the ridge .

Greentopia

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Maybe so. I know a lot of people with it. some for medical reasons but most for cultural. They seem like normal enough people, as in , they don't feel mutilated.

Sure, but if it's something that's generally accepted as being normal in their culture by their family and peers and and reinforced perhaps by their religion then they're less likely to see it as mutilation unless it causes them actual physical or sexual problems.
And even then they may simply see it as the price to be paid for the adherence to their faith or culture.
No-one would readily admit to being mutilated for those reasons, especially as it was probably done at their parents behest.

kylith

Greentopia wrote: »

I'm female too and my last partner is circumcised and I didnotice a difference during sex. Without going into too much detail it meant things didn't go as, em, 'smoothly' as they should have initially, but he's good in bed otherwise so that made up for it

And yes I was initially a bit concerned about causing discomfort too but it just meant I had to 'handle' matters a little bit more gently.

Maybe the smoothness had something to do with my partner being circumcised at birth so he'd never known anything different (though maybe yours was too, I don't know).

The handling of it is definitely different. (lads, think of the give in your willy-skin and imagine it reduced by 33%).

There is no way I would get any son of mine circumcised for no reason. Anyone who suggested I did would be in a world of pain themselves.

sock puppet

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I have provided a link which shows that 100 children die every year in one of the most technologically advanced countries on the planet.

"an unrecognized sacrifice of innocents."

Not really the sort of language you'd find in an esteemed journal.

Chuck Stone

sock puppet wrote: »

"an unrecognized sacrifice of innocents."

Not really the sort of language you'd find in an esteemed journal.

You're focussing on the language rather than the findings.

That was the first google hit I got. My apologies if you find the language not to your obvioulsy high standards of critique.

Nevertheless the facts remain facts.

Micky Dolenz

Greentopia wrote: »

Sure, but if it's something that's generally accepted as being normal in their culture by their family and peers and and reinforced perhaps by their religion then they're less likely to see it as mutilation unless it causes them actual physical or sexual problems.
And even then they may simply see it as the price to be paid for the adherence to their faith or culture.
No-one would readily admit to being mutilated for those reasons, especially as it was probably done at their parents behest.

Don't feel too bad for people who don't feel bad.

As I said, I wouldn't want it done to myself or for any child of mine.

But to strengthen my argument, I wouldn't insult or make general derogatory statements about millions of people, across different beliefs and cultures.

kylith

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Maybe so. I know a lot of people with it. some for medical reasons but most for cultural. They seem like normal enough people, as in , they don't feel mutilated.

I know two guys well enough to ask them about it. One had it done for medical reasons as an adult, can't argue with that. The other harbours great resentment toward his parents for cutting g bits off of him unnecessarily.

If they're in a culture where it's the norm they may not find it weird, but that doesn't mean it's ok.

jased10s wrote: »

So why does all vibrators have circumsicision'd heads ?
I heard ladies like the ridge .

When a cock is erect the foreskin is retracted anyway so it can be difficult to tell circumcised from uncircumcised in that situation. Most dildos are probably made in the USA anyway where circumcision is currently the norm, though reports I've heard say it's getting less common.

concur4u?

off topic a bit but a friend of mine in his teenage years actually broke the lets just say his bit from the japs eye to the shaft during vertical van tango he was still fainting from the pain up to a day after to this day its sort of half done if ye get me

flanum

meh! its no skin off my nose!

Greentopia

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Let's not allow our wish to appear liberal get in the way of right and wrong shall we?

I'm what one would call liberal but I like to think I have a sound moral compass and have a clear definition of the difference between right and wrong. To me it's apparent that circumcision is wrong for all but necessary medical grounds and is indeed mutilation.

This 'it's acceptable because it's part of my religion' is BS IMO. What's wrong without religion is also wrong with.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." – Steven Weinberg

Chuck Stone

Greentopia wrote: »

I'm what one would call liberal but I like to think I have a sound moral compass and have a clear definition of the difference between right and wrong. To me it's apparent that circumcision is wrong for all but necessary medical grounds and is indeed mutilation

We're singing from the same hymn sheet on this issue Greentopia.

Greentopia

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Don't feel too bad for people who don't feel bad.

It's not really a question of feeling bad for them, I fell sorry for them more that they had no say in the matter as it was something that was carried out when they were children in most cases. To me that's tantamount to child abuse, but of course many things are deemed acceptable if they're done in the name of one's culture or religion that would not otherwise be so in the absence of them.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

But to strengthen my argument, I wouldn't insult or make general derogatory statements about millions of people, across different beliefs and cultures.

Perhaps you're not aiming this at me as I don't believe I have done so?
In any case I can criticise harmful beliefs and practices without the intent to cause personal insult. Some things shouldn't be given a free pass just because they're an intrinsic part of one's culture or religion.

jive

There are medical reasons for it. There was a study a few years ago that showed circumcision may reduce the risk of contracting HIV (--->AIDS) by more than 50% in heterosexual males. While we don't have that problem here it is obviously a big advantage for large parts of the world, particularly Africa.

later12

jive wrote: »

...circumcision may reduce the risk of contracting HIV (--->AIDS) by more than 50% in heterosexual males. While we don't have that problem here...

How sure are you about that?

jive

later10 wrote: »

How sure are you about that?

ok let me rephrase that;
while we dont have a big problem here.

For a large part of the country you can be pretty confident that they don't have HIV. Maybe it's a bigger problem in Dublin. I still can't imagine that >10,000 people in this country have HIV. Probably something along the lines of 5-10. Condoms are a wonderful thing, anyway! As long as you're not silly and you strap your willy you should be golden to ride anything ya want

concur4u?

jive wrote: »

ok let me rephrase that;
while we dont have a big problem here.

For a large part of the country you can be pretty confident that they don't have HIV. Maybe it's a bigger problem in Dublin. I still can't imagine that >10,000 people in this country have HIV. Probably something along the lines of 5-10. Condoms are a wonderful thing, anyway! As long as you're not silly and you strap your willy you should be golden to ride anything ya want

i wouldnt agree with the whole stick a condom on and you ll be fine pently of other way of contracting hiv during fun time with strangers and statisticly maybe dublin has a higher rate but that dont meen it ant elsewere hiv dont discrimanate like

jive

concur4u? wrote: »

i wouldnt agree with the whole stick a condom on and you ll be fine pently of other way of contracting hiv during fun time with strangers and statisticly maybe dublin has a higher rate but that dont meen it ant elsewere hiv dont discrimanate like

not sure if srs

well imo if you're thick enough to inject yourself with dirty needles then you can deal with the consequences

Amirani

It is mutilation and those who practice it deserve to be considered barbaric and ignorant. It's there for a reason, like every single other part of our bodies.

concur4u?

jive wrote: »

not sure if srs

well imo if you're thick enough to inject yourself with dirty needles then you can deal with the consequences

i wasnt on about needles oral sex perhaps?

Chuck Stone

jive wrote: »

There are medical reasons for it. There was a study a few years ago that showed circumcision may reduce the risk of contracting HIV (--->AIDS) by more than 50% in heterosexual males. While we don't have that problem here it is obviously a big advantage for large parts of the world, particularly Africa.

For men? That's pretty gender-centric wouldn't you agree?

If a man ejaculates into a woman with carrying the AIDS virus then she's pretty much ****ed (excuse the unintended pun).

CrazyRabbit

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Removing foreskin is hardly mutilation.

Permanently removing a piece of the body without just medical cause, can only possibly be called mutilation. What if the practice was to cut off parts of the earlobes? You don't need earlobes, but there are few who would disagree that such an act was not mutilation.

If something like the appendix was routinely removed for religious/cultural reasons, I think there would be a greater uproar about it. But, decades of ignorance means that it is now seen as 'normal' and therefore acceptable.